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Well i really dont get why so many people on this board just hate everything about shantae, and dont present all the facts.
Want to know why this first game bombed? It was on the GBC almost a year after the DS was released. Critics game the game overwhelmingly positive reviews and it is still considered one of the best GBC games ever, due to how much it pushed the system.
Also remember, wayforward wanted to keep making shantae games after that, but they didnt have the money to self publish. They with shopping around for shantae way before the forst game too, even at SNES times.
If any of these other indie games came out at the same time shantae did, they would be, as you put it, DOA as well. The landscape for indie games is MUCH different then it was back in 2002. Think undertale would even release back then? Nope, not at all. So stop using that as an excuse.
Second, undertale and cuphead got mii costumes, and shovel knight an assist trophy. What do they all have in common? 1 hit wonder games. There is no way to prove any other those games could servive in a long series, so they get a mii costume, or at least i see that thinking from Sakurai. Almost every character in smash, especially dlc, are from a big franchise, or a popular series of games. None of the other indies in the game fit that. So thats a big point in shantaes favor.
Right now the 2 biggest contenders for an indie rep are Reimu, and a Hollow Knight character. Reimu comes from a MASSIVE franchise made by just 1 guy. I cannot even begine to say how much tougou has influsnced the gaming landscape in japan, with many indie and doujin and others getting their start in touhou fan works, and not just games too. Its biggest hurdle is the lack of awareness outside of japan, but honestly i feel its either reimu or shantae being our first indie rep. The Knight or Hornet are in theird mostly due to nintendo ties and they are publishing the sequel.
So please, you and everyone else. Stop this uncalled gor hate on shantae and just ignoring facts just to push your own ahendas. Its sad, pathetic, and hurts speculation as a whole. If you arent going to actually think and rate, dont even bother posting about the character.
Shovel Knight's getting a sequel and a mobile spinoff, but I see where you're coming from. Her main push comes from her original status as a cult classic, which more than likely worked in her favor during the modern releases and the HGH Kickstarter. There's also the fact that at the time, the other indies were popular but too early to tell; Heck, Shovel Knight was released in the same year Ultimate's roster was finalized, which makes his AT status an achievement in and of itself. Also, Toby was pals with Sakurai and Nintendo had already gotten in touch with Microsoft for Banjo, so Cuphead was easy to slot in. I still believe Reimu's got a better shot based on the sheer amount of influence and popularity in Japan; She may not top the polls in the Smash community, but Japan would EXPLODE if she got in.
I see some people arguing about her being a western rep being an issue.
I really don't see it that way. Like I said in my analysis, I think it more comes down to if Nintendo wants an indie first and foremost. If they decide that's the route they wanna go with one of their spots, then I don't think the nationality would exactly matter. The wall for the indies is more:
1. Does Nintendo decide they want a full fighter Indie rep (beyond just doing costumes)?
2. Would the indie catch Sakurai's eye and get him wanting to do them?
3. Everything else (presence, media to pull from, fan demand, etc.)
I'd say characters like Reimu and Shantae certainly fill all the requirements in the 3rd part, but getting through the first two is a total crapshoot, especially once it comes to Sakurai's feelings. The first two questions are where all the luck lies and what brings down their chances considerably until proven otherwise.
I see some people arguing about her being a western rep being an issue.
I really don't see it that way. Like I said in my analysis, I think it more comes down to if Nintendo wants an indie first and foremost. If they decide that's the route they wanna go with one of their spots, then I don't think the nationality would exactly matter. The wall for the indies is more:
1. Does Nintendo decide they want a full fighter Indie rep (beyond just doing costumes)?
2. Would the indie catch Sakurai's eye and get him wanting to do them?
3. Everything else (presence, media to pull from, fan demand, etc.)
I'd say characters like Reimu and Shantae certainly fill all the requirements in the 3rd part, but getting through the first two is a total crapshoot, especially once it comes to Sakurai's feelings. The first two questions are where all the luck lies and what brings down their chances considerably until proven otherwise.
Or maybe we'll get another Snake-type thing and he'll add Reimu as a full fighter due to being pals with ZUN, or something similar with another character. We got a Sans PreMiium with Megalovania because Toby beat him in Smash, so it could happen. At least, I would hope so...
Well i really dont get why so many people on this board just hate everything about shantae, and dont present all the facts.
Want to know why this first game bombed? It was on the GBC almost a year after the DS was released. Critics game the game overwhelmingly positive reviews and it is still considered one of the best GBC games ever, due to how much it pushed the system.
Also remember, wayforward wanted to keep making shantae games after that, but they didnt have the money to self publish. They with shopping around for shantae way before the forst game too, even at SNES times.
If any of these other indie games came out at the same time shantae did, they would be, as you put it, DOA as well. The landscape for indie games is MUCH different then it was back in 2002. Think undertale would even release back then? Nope, not at all. So stop using that as an excuse.
Second, undertale and cuphead got mii costumes, and shovel knight an assist trophy. What do they all have in common? 1 hit wonder games. There is no way to prove any other those games could servive in a long series, so they get a mii costume, or at least i see that thinking from Sakurai. Almost every character in smash, especially dlc, are from a big franchise, or a popular series of games. None of the other indies in the game fit that. So thats a big point in shantaes favor.
Right now the 2 biggest contenders for an indie rep are Reimu, and a Hollow Knight character. Reimu comes from a MASSIVE franchise made by just 1 guy. I cannot even begine to say how much tougou has influsnced the gaming landscape in japan, with many indie and doujin and others getting their start in touhou fan works, and not just games too. Its biggest hurdle is the lack of awareness outside of japan, but honestly i feel its either reimu or shantae being our first indie rep. The Knight or Hornet are in theird mostly due to nintendo ties and they are publishing the sequel.
So please, you and everyone else. Stop this uncalled gor hate on shantae and just ignoring facts just to push your own ahendas. Its sad, pathetic, and hurts speculation as a whole. If you arent going to actually think and rate, dont even bother posting about the character.
Shovel Knight's getting a sequel and a mobile spinoff, but I see where you're coming from. Her main push comes from her original status as a cult classic, which more than likely worked in her favor during the modern releases and the HGH Kickstarter. There's also the fact that at the time, the other indies were popular but too early to tell; Heck, Shovel Knight was released in the same year Ultimate's roster was finalized, which makes his AT status an achievement in and of itself. Also, Toby was pals with Sakurai and Nintendo had already gotten in touch with Microsoft for Banjo, so Cuphead was easy to slot in. I still believe Reimu's got a better shot based on the sheer amount of influence and popularity in Japan; She may not top the polls in the Smash community, but Japan would EXPLODE if she got in.
True about shovel knight, but yeah i was mostly talking about of the time of his AT, he had 1 game and that looked like all it would be then. Yes he is growing to be a franchize, but at the time you couldn't tell. Undertale so far is still just 1 game, but Tobys new game is... a prequal? just tied together with, or cameos with undertale? Toby is anm amazing developer and makes some good stuff, even if I couldn't get into Undertale, but still it as a franchise and longevitiy has not been proven.
And yeah Reimu has a great shot too. I just lean slightly closer to Shantae.
I see some people arguing about her being a western rep being an issue.
I really don't see it that way. Like I said in my analysis, I think it more comes down to if Nintendo wants an indie first and foremost. If they decide that's the route they wanna go with one of their spots, then I don't think the nationality would exactly matter. The wall for the indies is more:
1. Does Nintendo decide they want a full fighter Indie rep (beyond just doing costumes)?
2. Would the indie catch Sakurai's eye and get him wanting to do them?
3. Everything else (presence, media to pull from, fan demand, etc.)
I'd say characters like Reimu and Shantae certainly fill all the requirements in the 3rd part, but getting through the first two is a total crapshoot, especially once it comes to Sakurai's feelings. The first two questions are where all the luck lies and what brings down their chances considerably until proven otherwise.
I agree. Its the first 2 options that hold back any indies. We know for a fact they are on their radar at least, hence the costumes and sprits and AT, but we don't know if it will go further then that. I still want to beleive it will, hence why I feel its either Shantae or Reimu for the indie rep.
True about shovel knight, but yeah i was mostly talking about of the time of his AT, he had 1 game and that looked like all it would be then. Yes he is growing to be a franchize, but at the time you couldn't tell. Undertale so far is still just 1 game, but Tobys new game is... a prequal? just tied together with, or cameos with undertale? Toby is anm amazing developer and makes some good stuff, even if I couldn't get into Undertale, but still it as a franchise and longevitiy has not been proven.
And yeah Reimu has a great shot too. I just lean slightly closer to Shantae.
I agree. Its the first 2 options that hold back any indies. We know for a fact they are on their radar at least, hence the costumes and sprits and AT, but we don't know if it will go further then that. I still want to beleive it will, hence why I feel its either Shantae or Reimu for the indie rep.
Yeah, there's a lot of fighters who missed out because their claim to fame only happened after the roster was done. Shovel Knight, Spring Man, Rex, Bandana Dee...
Deltarune seems to be a sort of... Side story, if you will. Hard to really explain. Either way, Undertale became really popular-As in, take over the internet popular-Then began to die down. There's also the possibility that Sans was just something Sakurai kinda tossed in after meeting Toby. Actually, how long have they know each other?
I'd bring up Persona 5, but that's still technically a franchise, and that franchise itself is a spinoff of another franchise. There's also the fact that Persona 5, like 3 and 4 before it, is becoming a sub-series of it's own. Good grief...
Concept: A person of color x160
Tidus x130
Moogle x125
The Stretchers x120
D.Va x115
Nate Adams x115
Alex Mason x115
150 - 101
Zelda (BotW sequel) x110
Concept: Pokémon Mystery Dungeon content x101
100 - 51
[Rerate] Frisk x95
Shuichi Saihara x95
Concept: Darksiders rep x80
Sackboy x80
Red (Angry Birds) x80
Proto Man x75
Fulgore x74
Lu Bu (Dynasty Warriors) x70
[Rerate] Ezio x70
Concept: A non-videogame character gets a Mii Costume x65
Boss: Ender Dragon x61
Echo: Xion (Sora) x58
Concept: More ATs as one new item x55
Sakura Shinguji x52
50 - 25
Dwight Fairfield (Dead by Daylight) x50
Mii Costume: Jill Stingray x50
Concept: SNES-era Final Fantasy rep x50
The Terrarian x50
Concept: Content from currently unreleased game (not Spirit Events) (as of May 17th 2020) x50
Echo: Zeraora (Lucario) x45
Echo: Dark Bowser (Bowser) x44
Austin the Butler (Gardenscapes) x40
Billy Hatcher x40
Echo: Lord Fredrik (King K. Rool) x39
Stage: Bowser's Castle x38
Gooigi x37
Giygas x35
Concept: Second F-Zero rep x34
Urbosa x30
Concept: Assist Trophies added in updates x27
Rival Pokémon Trainer x25
Concept: Dark Souls rep x25
Concept: Deltarune content x25
Riptor x25
The Bard (Wandersong) x25
Under 25
Concept: Returning stages x21
Jin Sakai x20
Concept: Fighter Pass Volume 2 is half Nintendo and half third party x20
Zeraora x15
Black Shadow x15
Wolf Link x15
Concept: FP2 character comes with an Echo Fighter x15
Lora and Jin x15
[Rerate] Monster Hunter x15
Boss: Rayquaza x14
Magolor x12
[Rerate] Jin Kazama x10
[Rerate] Monokuma x10
Gran/Djeeta x10
Otto Matic x10
The Avatar (Ultima) x10
Neptune (Hyperdimension Neptunia) x10
Concept: Bravely Default rep x10
Concept: Rocket League repx10
Mii Costume: Alex Kidd x10
Medusa (Kid Icarus) x10
[Rerate] Maxwell x10
[Rerate] Concept: Boss Rush x10
Klonoa x10
Jason Frudnick & SOPHIA x10
Chell x8
Taranza x6
Concept: Darkstalkers rep x6
Echo (Olimar) x6
Sparky (Clash Royale) x5
Concept: Overwatch character x5
Asha (Wonder Boy) x5
Mii Costume: Hat Kid x5
Concept: Portal 2 rep x5
Breath of the Wild 2 Ganondorf x5
Tick (Brawl Stars) x5
King Graham x5
Concept: Fortnite character x5
Cooking Mama x5
Jill (Drill Dozer) x5
Asuka (Senran Kagura) x5
Furret x5
Deku Scrub x5
Mii Costume: Edward Falcon x5
Concept: A LABO character x5
Cynthia x5
Concept: Bonus character x5
John Marston x5
Concept: No AT promotions x5
[Rerate] Morrigan Aensland x5
[Rerate] Cadence x5
Octoling x5
Kazuya Mishima x5
Excitebiker x5
Zero (Mega Man) x5
Yoshimitsu x5 Concept: Generic Zora x3
Three Mage Sisters x2
Concept: A Pokémon Trainer who fights x2
Concept: A fighter who uses all kicks x2
[Rerate] Metal Sonic x2
Concept: Generic Goron x2
Mii Costume: Jacket x2
Moogle floats past The Stretchers and lands in third place. Nate Adams and Alex Mason fight past Zelda, who's now off the top seven, and tie with D.Va for fifth.
Concept: Pokémon Mystery Dungeon content ventures past 100 noms.
Sakura Shinguji and Concept: More ATs as one new item cross 50 noms.
Concept: Deltarune content, Riptor, and The Bard reach 25 noms. Concept: A non-videogame character gets a Mii Costume gets a huge boost, breaking past the 25 and 50 barriers in one fell swoop.
Today's pair of newcomers are Zero and Yoshimitsu, each with 5 noms.
Drason
Nightmare is already on the schedule, so you're gonna have to nominate someone else.
Well i really dont get why so many people on this board just hate everything about shantae, and dont present all the facts.
Want to know why this first game bombed? It was on the GBC almost a year after the DS was released. Critics game the game overwhelmingly positive reviews and it is still considered one of the best GBC games ever, due to how much it pushed the system.
Also remember, wayforward wanted to keep making shantae games after that, but they didnt have the money to self publish. They with shopping around for shantae way before the forst game too, even at SNES times.
If any of these other indie games came out at the same time shantae did, they would be, as you put it, DOA as well. The landscape for indie games is MUCH different then it was back in 2002. Think undertale would even release back then? Nope, not at all. So stop using that as an excuse.
Second, undertale and cuphead got mii costumes, and shovel knight an assist trophy. What do they all have in common? 1 hit wonder games. There is no way to prove any other those games could servive in a long series, so they get a mii costume, or at least i see that thinking from Sakurai. Almost every character in smash, especially dlc, are from a big franchise, or a popular series of games. None of the other indies in the game fit that. So thats a big point in shantaes favor.
Right now the 2 biggest contenders for an indie rep are Reimu, and a Hollow Knight character. Reimu comes from a MASSIVE franchise made by just 1 guy. I cannot even begine to say how much tougou has influsnced the gaming landscape in japan, with many indie and doujin and others getting their start in touhou fan works, and not just games too. Its biggest hurdle is the lack of awareness outside of japan, but honestly i feel its either reimu or shantae being our first indie rep. The Knight or Hornet are in theird mostly due to nintendo ties and they are publishing the sequel.
So please, you and everyone else. Stop this uncalled gor hate on shantae and just ignoring facts just to push your own ahendas. Its sad, pathetic, and hurts speculation as a whole. If you arent going to actually think and rate, dont even bother posting about the character.
All of this is true, and a perfect explanation for why her game bombed. But it doesn't mean that it didn't bomb, which is the point he was making - you can hardly call having history and seniority a bonus when Shantae's success, and therefore her importance to gaming history, came much later. Don't think you get to write him off as a blind hater, he even expressed desire to play a game soon.
Want to know why this first game bombed? It was on the GBC almost a year after the DS was released. Critics game the game overwhelmingly positive reviews and it is still considered one of the best GBC games ever, due to how much it pushed the system.
Shouldn't have released it on that then. Anyway, critical reception for Shantae GBC is irelevant here since it took the series 8 years to recover from the original game being an commercial failure. Being a good game is nice but when it comes to the future of an IP, making money is more important.
Also remember, wayforward wanted to keep making shantae games after that, but they didnt have the money to self publish. They with shopping around for shantae way before the forst game too, even at SNES times.
If any of these other indie games came out at the same time shantae did, they would be, as you put it, DOA as well. The landscape for indie games is MUCH different then it was back in 2002. Think undertale would even release back then? Nope, not at all. So stop using that as an excuse.
They wouldn't have to be DOA if they didn't launch on a dying handheld. Honestly tho, I don't get what point you're trying to make here? Frankly, I don't think a game like Undertale wouldn't have the potential to do well in 2002 but that doesn't matter because it didn't happen. This "What if"ism is worthless to me. All I know is that Undertale became a Smash hit when it first released and that that didn't happen for Shantae.
Second, undertale and cuphead got mii costumes, and shovel knight an assist trophy. What do they all have in common? 1 hit wonder games. There is no way to prove any other those games could servive in a long series, so they get a mii costume, or at least i see that thinking from Sakurai. Almost every character in smash, especially dlc, are from a big franchise, or a popular series of games. None of the other indies in the game fit that. So thats a big point in shantaes favor.
Deltarune is a thing, Cuphead is getting DLC and a Netflix cartoon and Shovel Knight got multiple seperate campaigns and spinoffs are on the way. The future looks pretty bright to me for all those games. If Shantae can become a longrunning series I don't see why they can't. Again, Shantae way have longitivity but I simply think the bigger successes of Undertale, Cuphead, etc outweigh that. You cannot convince me Nintendo sees less potential in Undertale than in Shantae, sorry. Btw, ARMS isn't "a big franchise, or a popular series of games" yet we got Min Min. I know the standards may be different there since she's first-party but hey, there is no way to prove Arms could survive in a long series.
Right now the 2 biggest contenders for an indie rep are Reimu, and a Hollow Knight character. Reimu comes from a MASSIVE franchise made by just 1 guy. I cannot even begine to say how much tougou has influsnced the gaming landscape in japan, with many indie and doujin and others getting their start in touhou fan works, and not just games too. Its biggest hurdle is the lack of awareness outside of japan, but honestly i feel its either reimu or shantae being our first indie rep. The Knight or Hornet are in theird mostly due to nintendo ties and they are publishing the sequel.
Okay?... I didn't mention Touhou in my post so I don't see why you brought this up. I already read your post so I know how you feel about Touhou and Hollow Knight.
So please, you and everyone else. Stop this uncalled gor hate on shantae and just ignoring facts just to push your own ahendas. Its sad, pathetic, and hurts speculation as a whole. If you arent going to actually think and rate, dont even bother posting about the character.
...Did I strike a nerve? What "uncalled for hate"? I said I didn't hold any grudge against her. There's a difference between being sceptical of a character's chances and giving them a 0% want and straight up hate. Also mind telling me which facts I'm ignoring and what agenda I'm pushing? I think Shantae is a series that had a rough start and, while it's doing really well right now, ultimately fails to compete with the indie titles which received more attention by the gaming landscape. Is that really so controversial?
Concept: A person of color x160
Tidus x130
Moogle x125
The Stretchers x120
D.Va x115
Nate Adams x115
Alex Mason x115
150 - 101
Zelda (BotW sequel) x110
Concept: Pokémon Mystery Dungeon content x101
100 - 51
[Rerate] Frisk x95
Shuichi Saihara x95
Concept: Darksiders rep x80
Sackboy x80
Red (Angry Birds) x80
Proto Man x75
Fulgore x74
Lu Bu (Dynasty Warriors) x70
[Rerate] Ezio x70
Concept: A non-videogame character gets a Mii Costume x65
Boss: Ender Dragon x61
Echo: Xion (Sora) x58
Concept: More ATs as one new item x55
Sakura Shinguji x52
50 - 25
Dwight Fairfield (Dead by Daylight) x50
Mii Costume: Jill Stingray x50
Concept: SNES-era Final Fantasy rep x50
The Terrarian x50
Concept: Content from currently unreleased game (not Spirit Events) (as of May 17th 2020) x50
Echo: Zeraora (Lucario) x45
Echo: Dark Bowser (Bowser) x44
Austin the Butler (Gardenscapes) x40
Billy Hatcher x40
Echo: Lord Fredrik (King K. Rool) x39
Stage: Bowser's Castle x38
Gooigi x37
Giygas x35
Concept: Second F-Zero rep x34
Urbosa x30
Concept: Assist Trophies added in updates x27
Rival Pokémon Trainer x25
Concept: Dark Souls rep x25
Concept: Deltarune content x25
Riptor x25
The Bard (Wandersong) x25
Under 25
Concept: Returning stages x21
Jin Sakai x20
Concept: Fighter Pass Volume 2 is half Nintendo and half third party x20
Zeraora x15
Black Shadow x15
Wolf Link x15
Concept: FP2 character comes with an Echo Fighter x15
Lora and Jin x15
[Rerate] Monster Hunter x15
Boss: Rayquaza x14
Magolor x12
[Rerate] Jin Kazama x10
[Rerate] Monokuma x10
Gran/Djeeta x10
Otto Matic x10
The Avatar (Ultima) x10
Neptune (Hyperdimension Neptunia) x10
Concept: Bravely Default rep x10
Concept: Rocket League repx10
Mii Costume: Alex Kidd x10
Medusa (Kid Icarus) x10
[Rerate] Maxwell x10
[Rerate] Concept: Boss Rush x10
Klonoa x10
Jason Frudnick & SOPHIA x10
Chell x8
Taranza x6
Concept: Darkstalkers rep x6
Sparky (Clash Royale) x5
Concept: Overwatch character x5
Asha (Wonder Boy) x5
Mii Costume: Hat Kid x5
Concept: Portal 2 rep x5
Breath of the Wild 2 Ganondorf x5
Tick (Brawl Stars) x5
King Graham x5
Concept: Fortnite character x5
Cooking Mama x5
Jill (Drill Dozer) x5
Asuka (Senran Kagura) x5
Furret x5
Deku Scrub x5
Mii Costume: Edward Falcon x5
Concept: A LABO character x5
Cynthia x5
Concept: Bonus character x5
John Marston x5
Concept: No AT promotions x5
[Rerate] Morrigan Aensland x5
[Rerate] Cadence x5
Octoling x5
Kazuya Mishima x5
Excitebiker x5
Zero (Mega Man) x5 Concept: Generic Zora x3
Three Mage Sisters x2
Concept: A Pokémon Trainer who fights x2
Concept: A fighter who uses all kicks x2
[Rerate] Metal Sonic x2
Concept: Generic Goron x2
Mii Costume: Jacket x2
Echo (Olimar) x1
Moogle floats past The Stretchers and lands in third place. Nate Adams and Alex Mason fight past Zelda, who's now off the top seven, and tie with D.Va for fifth.
Concept: Pokémon Mystery Dungeon content ventures past 100 noms.
Sakura Shinguji and Concept: More ATs as one new item cross 50 noms.
Concept: Deltarune content, Riptor, and The Bard reach 25 noms. Concept: A non-videogame character gets a Mii Costume gets a huge boost, breaking past the 25 and 50 barriers in one fell swoop.
Today's sole newcomer is Zero, with 5 noms.
Drason
Nightmare is already on the schedule, so you're gonna have to nominate someone else.
All of this is true, and a perfect explanation for why her game bombed. But it doesn't mean that it didn't bomb, which is the point he was making - you can hardly call having history and seniority a bonus when Shantae's success, and therefore her importance to gaming history, came much later. Don't think you get to write him off as a blind hater, he even expressed desire to play a game soon.
ok yes it did bomb but the way it was said was the game failed and because it did she doesn't deserve to be in smash, which is a terrible argument, when any indie game in the same situation back in 2002 would have bombed as well
Shouldn't have released it on that then. Anyway, critical reception for Shantae GBC is irelevant here since it took the series 8 years to recover from the original game being an commercial failure. Being a good game is nice but when it comes to the future of an IP, making money is more important.
They wouldn't have to be DOA if they didn't launch on a dying handheld. Honestly tho, I don't get what point you're trying to make here? Frankly, I don't think a game like Undertale wouldn't have the potential to do well in 2002 but that doesn't matter because it didn't happen. This "What if"ism is worthless to me. All I know is that Undertale became a Smash hit when it first released and that that didn't happen for Shantae.
Deltarune is a thing, Cuphead is getting DLC and a Netflix cartoon and Shovel Knight got multiple seperate campaigns and spinoffs are on the way. The future looks pretty bright to me for all those games. If Shantae can become a longrunning series I don't see why they can't. Again, Shantae way have longitivity but I simply think the bigger successes of Undertale, Cuphead, etc outweigh that. You cannot convince me Nintendo sees less potential in Undertale than in Shantae, sorry. Btw, ARMS isn't "a big franchise, or a popular series of games" yet we got Min Min. I know the standards may be different there since she's first-party but hey, there is no way to prove Arms could survive in a long series.
Okay?... I didn't mention Touhou in my post so I don't see why you brought this up. I already read your post so I know how you feel about Touhou and Hollow Knight.
...Did I strike a nerve? What "uncalled for hate"? I said I didn't hold any grudge against her. There's a difference between being sceptical of a character's chances and giving them a 0% want and straight up hate. Also mnid telling me which facts I'm ignoring and what agenda I'm pushing? I think Shantae is a series that had a rough start and, while it's doing really well right now, ultimately fails to compete with the indie titles which received more attention by the gaming landscape. Is that really so controversial?
Let me just start bby saying I don't mean to attack you in particular, it was just your post broke the camels back, so I unloaded on you. It was meant to be all in general.
Wayforward, and any other company in that situation, couldn't just not release the game or redo everything they did to change it to a new system. game development isn't that simple. If you read the history of shantae, it took them a long time just to get the funds, and find a publisher, which screwed over the release of the first game to that long.
Also, that failure of the release wasn't the reason they didn't make more shantae games for 8 years. They started working on a DS game shortly after, but again, being an indipendant studio that mostly worked on games tied to other properties, they didn't have the time or money to fully commit to it. They had a working prototype working for DS but shelved it.
Look at the time period of 2002. A game like undertale I garuntee wouldn't have suceeded back then. I put money on it. Again, that is what ifs, but still.
At the time of adding in Sans, Shovel Knight, and Cuphead, none of those things were announced or planned, so Sakurai and Nintendo could only go off of the 1 game they all had. Just because these things have more now doesn't mean they were planned or possible when these spirits, AT, and Mii fighters were first planned.I am looking at purely when Sakurai and Nintendo decided how to include these characters in the game.
I mostly brought up touhou because it was tied in my original argument in my RTC post, on how the top most likely indies are, and were at the time of them decided FP2 characters. Though has been big for years, and Hollow Knight 2 has been in production for awhile, with nintendo backing them hard. That is a lot different to Shovel knight in 2017 when they probably planned his AT, or Cup Head in late 2018 when they planned that., or Sans when Sakurai and Tobi met.
Again, I did kinda unload on you when I meant a lot of these veryu negitive and not thinking posts on her. Her rough start I feel shows her longevity, and most characters with that bad of luck never come back at all. I also feel if Shantae first launched in the golden age of Indie games we have had for the past 5 years, everyone would be feeling differently about her, and it sucks people judge all these older indie characters(Her, Reimu, Quote, ext) as trash compaired to the newer oes because they came out at the better time for them
ok yes it did bomb but the way it was said was the game failed and because it did she doesn't deserve to be in smash, which is a terrible argument, when any indie game in the same situation back in 2002 would have bombed as well
That is not what he said at all, his post doesn't contain the words deserve, or should or shouldn't or anything like that, and the part about her game bombing is in the chance section.
That is not what he said at all, his post doesn't contain the words deserve, or should or shouldn't or anything like that, and the part about her game bombing is in the chance section.
As I said in my edited post, I did kinda jump on his post as it broke the camels back for me, and I kinda lumped a lot of announces I have been having right towards him, and I shouldn't have done that.
It just felt like he was saying with his wording," Her game bombed at first, and therfore, shes not as relvent or important as indie characters who didn't in the golden age of indie games", and that is a very unfair comparison.
Alright first off I want to apologize for my aggressive posts earlier, I had been posting at work during breaks and it was long and irritating day. So to all of you guys, sorry.
Now to begin:
Shantae
Chance 80%
The reason I rate her so high here is due to the facts that alot of you all seem to either not be aware of or don't factor in as being as important.
Indie games have had an ENORMOUS impact on the gaming world as a whole, its undeniable the effects that we've seen from games like Touhou, Cave Story, Undertale etc. To go off from this, all gaming companies essentially started as indies, even Nintendo. In their early years as a gaming company, Nintendo had no experts to look to, teams were small but passionate, games were fairly simple and required a lot of luck to succeed given how new and different they were
I think Nintendo is aware of this and we can see this from how they've supported Indies for over a decade at this point. From simple promotional art on their eshop to full blown DIRECTS focused around these independent games. To say the don't view Indies as big enough to get a playable status in Smash to me seems to come from the idea that "it hasn't happened yet so it can't really happen" I know t hats NOT likely your viewpoints, but it comes across as.
I would say an indie being added in this Fighter Pass is a big possibility as with all the more prominent choices they chose for FP1 out of the way, I think Nintendo would decide now to put an indie in Smash's roster. With that said while many argue Shovel Knight, Sans, or The Knight as better choices, I see a lot of the reasonings boil down to "It's a good game and its currently very popular" I disagree personally as I think if Nintendo were to choose an indie it'd be one with a series of its own, proof that its not just a one hit wonder enjoying the spotlight hanging over it in its 5 minutes of fame. A lot of big indies right now are super young; too recent in my eyes to be one of the playable third parties in Smash. Only Shantae, Quote, and Reimu coming to mind as being more than say 10 years old. If Nintendo were to pick an indie, I'd bank on them picking one who's company has supported them for years, has a character that has managed to stick around and continue to make new titles for years and has a potentially very fun moveset base. My biggest gripe when I see discussion about indies is that people vastly seem to overplay a game's popularity as being the biggest point for it, and that Nintendo doesn't value indies enough to put them in Smash's roster which is very much not the case as I see it.
That character is Shantae. She is decently popular and has lasted long enough to establish herself as here to stay despite having such a massive setback with her initial release that most others would've never seen the light of day again as videogame characters, yet here she is with a brand new game just last month.
tl;dr Shantae make me horny, best pick for Smash.
Want 100%
She has tons of moves, great music, a cool design with utterly phenomenal color palette, and her company is so passionate and creative.
Quote:
Chance 40%
I feel that Quote is in an odd case. He is undoubtedly influential with his game's release in 2004, I think however that despite this, with only one real game to his name (not counting appearances in other Nicalis titles) Quote just doesn't have enough to justify getting into Smash as a playable character. Him being Japanese might be point for him, but Reimu basically beats him every single regard. If an indie was picked and its a Japanese one, it'd be Reimu 99/100 times to me, not Quote. She has an actual series that's over 20 years old, tons of fans, and far more influence in the doujin gaming scene in Japan. Touhou has tons of potential to make for interesting music, stage and moveset from Reimu.
I feel Quote has a damn good chance as a mii gunner outfit (damn girl stop getting all the good ****) but as a playable character for this Fighter Pass? I wouldn't bet on it.
Want 60%
I've yet to get a copy myself but I saw little bits of video of hi game and definitely seems like a fun pick. But others like Shantae and Reimu and the impossible Marina Liteyears are far higher on my "I want them in Smash list"
Abstain. I don't know much about either of these two. Although, while we now know at least base game Spirits don't deconfirm (post-launch Spirits probably do, but that's not the point here), I'm a little concerned the third party Spirits might stay that way, given they were negotiated for Spirits rather than playable characters. That being said, it really depends on if they were ONLY negotiated for Spirits, similar to how Shovel Knight was apparently only negotiated for an Assist Trophy. We'll have to wait and see.
Damn, not since the first SNK rating have I written something this big...
Before I do my actual ratings, I'll provide a summary on the history of both Cave Story and Shantae since there seems to be a lot of arguing today over who is more important.
Cave Story and Shantae
Cave Story
Cave Story was released in 2004 as a freeware PC game. It was created by one single person (Daisuke "Pixel" Amaya) over the span of five years in his free-time. The game became an instant classic and is widely regarded as one of the quintessential indie games. Influences from it can be seen in other indie developed games released shortly afterwards such as Braid, Super Meat Boy, and Fez. Several ports to systems such as the Wii made it even more popular.
One of the best examples of Cave Story's influence is in a little indie game known as Undertale. Aside from having a similar title (Under = Cave, Tale = Story), there are a lot of similarities in the plot and even some of the characters (like Toriel bearing an extremely strong resemblance to Cave Story's mimigas). Toby Fox himself has even acknowledged Cave Story and it was even a popular running joke for a while that "Cave Story ripped off Undertale" (and yes the order of those words is correct).
Shantae
The first Shantae game released in 2002 on the GBC. While the game received great reviews, it bombed in sales since the GBA had been out for about a year. The series went dormant for a while until 2010 when WayForward released Risky's Revenge for the DSi Shop. While I'm not sure how well that sold since I'm unfamiliar with the DSi, I do know that it got amazing reviews, brought more attention to the Shantae series, and is generally considered to be the best DSi game.
WayForward then released Pirate's Curse in 2014 for both the 3DS and Wii U. It was at this point where Shantae's popularity boomed due to having a big game released on two mainstream Nintendo systems as well as coinciding with the Smash 4 DLC hype. To this day, I don't think I've ever seen a company push their character's inclusion for Smash as much as WayForward did back in 2015 when the Smash Ballot released*. Following all of this, the Shantae series has had major success financially to the point where Shantae is one of the most popular Smash requests.
*After looking back on WayForward and Shantae in Smash, I now definitely know what GoodGrief741
meant by them being annoying. This comment from a Shantae rating a while back summarizes it pretty well:
WayForward rallying Shantae during the ballot, and people going around chanting "she's got strong history with Nintendo" reminds of that kid in schoolyard games yelling "PICK ME! PICK ME! PICK ME!" as the captains are selecting their teammates.
"Is Shantae more talked about than Quote nowadays?"
Probably, at least in the Smash community.
"Is Shantae more likely for Smash than Quote?"
Depends on how you look at it, though most people would probably say yes and I wouldn't blame them.
But when it comes to leaving an impact on the indie genre, Quotes wins without question. The Shantae games are great indie/Metroidvania titles but are generally considered great entries in the genre, as opposed influencers of the genre like Cave Story was. Whether impact or sales is more important for a character's inclusion mainly falls upon Sakurai, but characters like Terry getting in over other big fighting game reps show that sales aren't always everything. Because of Cave Story's success and legacy, Quote is definitely someone who I would call an influential gaming icon.
TL;DR
While it's perfectly fine to think Shantae is more likely for Smash, saying that she's "The Queen of Indies" and that she had more of an influence/impact on the genre when characters like Quote and Reimu exist is one of the dumbest takes in all of Smash speculation. In the end, both are just as good enough picks for Smash so it doesn't really matter.
Oh yeah completely random fun fact about me: I learned about both Shantae and Cave Story through Nintendo Power. Maybe it's because I'm feeling sentimental today but I'll talk more on that below:
I couldn't find the physical issues of where I learned them but here's an online scan I found of Vol. 247 where I learned about Shantae:
I went to find the actual issues in my collection today and stumbled upon this amusing issue. It has a big cover article about Shantae: Risky's Revenge so I snapped a picture of it.
Oh and take a guess what game is covered immediately afterwards in the same issue?
Ok I've rambled long enough now onto the actual ratings:
-----
Quote
Chance: 15%
His game was very influential and is still one of the big name indies not represented at all in Ultimate at the moment. SourceGaming recently did a mega Smash poll and Quote placed in the top 50 spots (47th place to be exact). For a character that gets almost no talk in Smash speculation especially when compared to Shantae, that is pretty impressive and helps show that the fan demand - while not as loud as Shantae's - is definitely there. And yes while it is no secret that Nicalis is toxic as hell, Nintendo has done partnerships with way worse companies like Konami, Tencent, and Disney (via Ultimate Alliance 3) so I don't see that being a hurdle.
Now for the downsides: Quote has big indie competition with Reimu (who is undeniably way more popular/influential) and Shantae (who has a way more obnoxious vocal fanbase and is back in the running now). He's also technically from a Western company since Nicalis has the rights to him, which could be a hassle since Sakurai generally favors Japanese devs (with Banjo being our first and so far only true Western character). And finally, Quote is an indie character which I'm still skeptical will get a playable character since they aren't big as characters from Namco, Sega, etc. I'm honestly expecting Quote to get Mii Costume'd before actually becoming playable.
Want: 100%
Pretty self-explanatory; my most wanted indie character and my 2nd most wanted in general after Kyo (who is basically dead at this point). I have so many memories of Cave Story which is an amazing game that you should all play now if you haven't. And yes while he technically is owned by Nicalis, Quote is Pixel's creation and not theirs. He more than deserves to have his character in Smash after all of the work he's been through.
-----
Shantae
Chance: 15%
Spirits are officially back in the running thanks to Min Min so Shantae's chances aren't as dead as they used to be. As I mentioned earlier, she is very popular so Nintendo could listen to her extremely loud fanbase. There is however a chance Sakurai could be thinking "well those spirits are enough" and move onto more important spirit characters like Rex. Shantae is also Western owned and like I said with Quote, I'm not too confident on us getting an indie character in general.
Want: 95%
This will probably come as a shock since I seem to always seem to trash Shantae's chances/fanbase, but I love her games and she's my 2nd most wanted indie character after Quote. She has a ton of potential in the form of transformations and I would love to hear Dance Through the Danger in Smash. Oh and her inclusion also opens up the possibility of Mighty Switch Force content which is another WayForward series I absolutely love.
-----
Saki chance prediction: 2.00% Ray chance prediction: 1.50%
Nominations:
Concept: A non-videogame character gets a Mii Costume x5
To make things clear, if Shantae was rejected by Nintendo I don't think her GBC game bombing would have anything to do with that. The franchise is obviously way past that.
I only bring that game up in context of someone saying Shantae has a leg up over the competition for her "long Nintendo history" when for a long period of the series existance she didn't have much history to speak of. If someone didn't know about those 8 years of nothing they'd probably think Shantae's history was way more consistant than it actually was.
I guess Risky's Revenge might also apply to that term with it being a decade old but I didn't get the impression that game was also some gangbuster. From what I know, Pirate's Curse was the big turnaround for the series.
Damn, not since the first SNK rating have I written something this big...
Before I do my actual ratings, I'll provide a summary on the history of both Cave Story and Shantae since there seems to be a lot of arguing today over who is more important.
Cave Story and Shantae
Cave Story
Cave Story was released in 2004 as a freeware PC game. It was created by one single person (Daisuke "Pixel" Amaya) over the span of five years in his free-time. The game became an instant classic and is widely regarded as one of the quintessential indie games. Influences from it can be seen in other indie developed games released shortly afterwards such as Braid, Super Meat Boy, and Fez. Several ports to systems such as the Wii made it even more popular.
One of the best examples of Cave Story's influence is in a little indie game known as Undertale. Aside from having a similar title (Under = Cave, Tale = Story), there are a lot of similarities in the plot and even some of the characters (like Toriel bearing an extremely strong resemblance to Cave Story's mimigas). Toby Fox himself has even acknowledged Cave Story and it was even a popular running joke for a while that "Cave Story ripped off Undertale" (and yes the order of those words is correct).
Shantae
The first Shantae game released in 2002 on the GBC. While the game received great reviews, it bombed in sales since the GBA had been out for about a year. The series went dormant for a while until 2010 when WayForward released Risky's Revenge for the DSi Shop. While I'm not sure how well that sold since I'm unfamiliar with the DSi, I do know that it got amazing reviews, brought more attention to the Shantae series, and is generally considered to be the best DSi game.
WayForward then released Pirate's Curse in 2014 for both the 3DS and Wii U. It was at this point where Shantae's popularity boomed due to having a big game released on two mainstream Nintendo systems as well as coinciding with the Smash 4 DLC hype. To this day, I don't think I've ever seen a company push their character's inclusion for Smash as much as WayForward did back in 2015 when the Smash Ballot released*. Following all of this, the Shantae series has had major success financially to the point where Shantae is one of the most popular Smash requests.
*After looking back on WayForward and Shantae in Smash, I now definitely know what GoodGrief741
meant by them being annoying. This comment from a Shantae rating a while back summarizes it pretty well:
-----
In Conclusion...
"Are the Shantae games great?"
Absolutely!
"Is Shantae more talked about than Quote nowadays?"
Probably, at least in the Smash community.
"Is Shantae more likely for Smash than Quote?"
Depends on how you look at it, though most people would probably say yes and I wouldn't blame them.
But when it comes to leaving an impact on the indie genre, Quotes wins without question. The Shantae games are great indie/Metroidvania titles but are generally considered great entries in the genre, as opposed influencers of the genre like Cave Story was. Whether impact or sales is more important for a character's inclusion mainly falls upon Sakurai, but characters like Terry getting in over other big fighting game reps show that sales aren't always everything. Because of Cave Story's success and legacy, Quote is definitely someone who I would call an influential gaming icon.
TL;DR
While it's perfectly fine to think Shantae is more likely for Smash, saying that she's "The Queen of Indies" and that she had more of an influence/impact on the genre when characters like Quote and Reimu exist is one of the dumbest takes in all of Smash speculation. In the end, both are just as good enough picks for Smash so it doesn't really matter.
Oh yeah completely random fun fact about me: I learned about both Shantae and Cave Story through Nintendo Power. Maybe it's because I'm feeling sentimental today but I'll talk more on that below:
I couldn't find the physical issues of where I learned them but here's an online scan I found of Vol. 247 where I learned about Shantae:
I went to find the actual issues in my collection today and stumbled upon this amusing issue. It has a big cover article about Shantae: Risky's Revenge so I snapped a picture of it.
Oh and take a guess what game is covered immediately afterwards in the same issue?
Ok I've rambled long enough now onto the actual ratings:
-----
Quote
Chance: 15%
His game was very influential and is still one of the big name indies not represented at all in Ultimate at the moment. SourceGaming recently did a mega Smash poll and Quote placed in the top 50 spots (47th place to be exact). For a character that gets almost no talk in Smash speculation especially when compared to Shantae, that is pretty impressive and helps show that the fan demand - while not as loud as Shantae's - is definitely there. And yes while it is not secret that Nicalis is toxic as hell, Nintendo has done partnerships with way worse companies like Konami, Tencent, and Disney (via Ultimate Alliance 3) so I don't see that being a hurdle.
Now for the downsides: Quote has big indie competition with Reimu (who is undeniably way more popular/influential) and Shantae (who has a way more obnoxious vocal fanbase and is back in the running now). He's also technically from a Western company since Nicalis has the rights to him, which could be a hassle since Sakurai generally favors Japanese devs (with Banjo being our first and so far only true Western character). And finally, Quote is an indie character which I'm still skeptical will get a playable character since they aren't big as characters from Namco, Sega, etc. I'm honestly expecting Quote to get Mii Costume'd before actually becoming playable.
Want: 100%
Pretty self-explanatory; my most wanted indie character and my 2nd most wanted in general after Kyo (who is basically dead at this point). I have so many memories of Cave Story which is an amazing game that you should all play now if you haven't. And yes while he technically is owned by Nicalis, Quote is Pixel's creation and not theirs. He more than deserves to have his character in Smash after all of the work he's been through.
-----
Shantae
Chance: 15%
Spirits are officially back in the running thanks to Min Min so Shantae's chances aren't as dead as they used to be. As I mentioned earlier, she is very popular so Nintendo could listen to her extremely loud fanbase. There is however a chance Sakurai could be thinking "well those spirits are enough" and move onto more important spirit characters like Rex. Shantae is also Western owned and like I said with Quote, I'm not too confident on us getting an indie character in general.
Want: 95%
This will probably come as a shock since I seem to always seem to trash Shantae's chances/fanbase, but I love her games and she's my 2nd most wanted indie character after Quote. She has a ton of potential in the form of transformations and I would love to hear Dance Through the Danger in Smash. Oh and her inclusion also opens up the possibility of Mighty Switch Force content which is another WayForward series I absolutely love.
-----
Saki chance prediction: 2.00% Ray chance prediction: 1.50%
Nominations:
Concept: A non-videogame character gets a Mii Costume x5
Huh, I said DS instead of GBA... I feel really stupid now. Guess I really wasn't in my right mindset today, sorry about that guys.
But yeah I agree, Cavestory is a lot more influencial in the western side of indies, and many looked at it as inspiration. Shantae I guess in turn just has had a lot more games, and thus people say she is the queen of indies.
Honestly, Quote is probably the King, but Reimu is the queen by far, and honestly the true leader. What cave story did for western indies Touhou did for Jpanese indies/doujins. Its honestly quite facinating.
And thats all the more reason why I feel Smash really deserves an Indie rep, and will be constantly fighting for an indie character till the end, regardless on who it is. While I like shantae a lot, and my bias shows a lot, I would be estatic for any indie rep.
To make things clear, if Shantae was rejected by Nintendo I don't think her GBC game bombing would have anything to do with that. The franchise is obviously way past that.
I only bring that game up in context of someone saying Shantae has a leg up over the competition for her "long Nintendo history" when for a long period of the series existance she didn't have much history to speak of. If someone didn't know about those 8 years of nothing they'd probably think Shantae's history was way more consistant than it actually was.
I guess Risky's Revenge might also apply to that term with it being a decade old but I didn't get the impression that game was also some gangbuster. From what I know, Pirate's Curse was the big turnaround for the series.
That is true, Pirates curse really is what got her popularity really going. Riskies revenge mostly started the ball rolling if anything and reminded people she existed.
Concept: A person of color x160
Tidus x130
Moogle x125
The Stretchers x120
D.Va x115
Nate Adams x115
Alex Mason x115
150 - 101
Zelda (BotW sequel) x110
Concept: Pokémon Mystery Dungeon content x101
100 - 51
[Rerate] Frisk x95
Shuichi Saihara x95
Concept: Darksiders rep x80
Sackboy x80
Red (Angry Birds) x80
Proto Man x75
Fulgore x74
Lu Bu (Dynasty Warriors) x70
[Rerate] Ezio x70
Concept: A non-videogame character gets a Mii Costume x65
Boss: Ender Dragon x61
Echo: Xion (Sora) x58
Concept: More ATs as one new item x55
Sakura Shinguji x52
50 - 25
Dwight Fairfield (Dead by Daylight) x50
Mii Costume: Jill Stingray x50
Concept: SNES-era Final Fantasy rep x50
The Terrarian x50
Concept: Content from currently unreleased game (not Spirit Events) (as of May 17th 2020) x50
Echo: Zeraora (Lucario) x45
Echo: Dark Bowser (Bowser) x44
Austin the Butler (Gardenscapes) x40
Billy Hatcher x40
Echo: Lord Fredrik (King K. Rool) x39
Stage: Bowser's Castle x38
Gooigi x37
Giygas x35
Concept: Second F-Zero rep x34
Urbosa x30
Concept: Assist Trophies added in updates x27
Rival Pokémon Trainer x25
Concept: Dark Souls rep x25
Concept: Deltarune content x25
Riptor x25
The Bard (Wandersong) x25
Under 25
Concept: Returning stages x21
Jin Sakai x20
Concept: Fighter Pass Volume 2 is half Nintendo and half third party x20
Zeraora x15
Black Shadow x15
Wolf Link x15
Concept: FP2 character comes with an Echo Fighter x15
Lora and Jin x15
[Rerate] Monster Hunter x15
Boss: Rayquaza x14
Magolor x12
[Rerate] Jin Kazama x10
[Rerate] Monokuma x10
Gran/Djeeta x10
Otto Matic x10
The Avatar (Ultima) x10
Neptune (Hyperdimension Neptunia) x10
Concept: Bravely Default rep x10
Concept: Rocket League repx10
Mii Costume: Alex Kidd x10
Medusa (Kid Icarus) x10
[Rerate] Maxwell x10
[Rerate] Concept: Boss Rush x10
Klonoa x10
Jason Frudnick & SOPHIA x10
Chell x8
Taranza x6
Concept: Darkstalkers rep x6
Sparky (Clash Royale) x5
Concept: Overwatch character x5
Asha (Wonder Boy) x5
Mii Costume: Hat Kid x5
Concept: Portal 2 rep x5
Breath of the Wild 2 Ganondorf x5
Tick (Brawl Stars) x5
King Graham x5
Concept: Fortnite character x5
Cooking Mama x5
Jill (Drill Dozer) x5
Asuka (Senran Kagura) x5
Furret x5
Deku Scrub x5
Mii Costume: Edward Falcon x5
Concept: A LABO character x5
Cynthia x5
Concept: Bonus character x5
John Marston x5
Concept: No AT promotions x5
[Rerate] Morrigan Aensland x5
[Rerate] Cadence x5
Octoling x5
Kazuya Mishima x5
Excitebiker x5
Zero (Mega Man) x5 Concept: Generic Zora x3
Three Mage Sisters x2
Concept: A Pokémon Trainer who fights x2
Concept: A fighter who uses all kicks x2
[Rerate] Metal Sonic x2
Concept: Generic Goron x2
Mii Costume: Jacket x2
Echo (Olimar) x1
Moogle floats past The Stretchers and lands in third place. Nate Adams and Alex Mason fight past Zelda, who's now off the top seven, and tie with D.Va for fifth.
Concept: Pokémon Mystery Dungeon content ventures past 100 noms.
Sakura Shinguji and Concept: More ATs as one new item cross 50 noms.
Concept: Deltarune content, Riptor, and The Bard reach 25 noms. Concept: A non-videogame character gets a Mii Costume gets a huge boost, breaking past the 25 and 50 barriers in one fell swoop.
Today's sole newcomer is Zero, with 5 noms.
Drason
Nightmare is already on the schedule, so you're gonna have to nominate someone else.
All of this is true, and a perfect explanation for why her game bombed. But it doesn't mean that it didn't bomb, which is the point he was making - you can hardly call having history and seniority a bonus when Shantae's success, and therefore her importance to gaming history, came much later. Don't think you get to write him off as a blind hater, he even expressed desire to play a game soon.
Concept: A person of color x160
Tidus x130
Moogle x125
The Stretchers x120
D.Va x115
Nate Adams x115
Alex Mason x115
150 - 101
Zelda (BotW sequel) x110
Concept: Pokémon Mystery Dungeon content x101
100 - 51
[Rerate] Frisk x95
Shuichi Saihara x95
Concept: Darksiders rep x80
Sackboy x80
Red (Angry Birds) x80
Proto Man x75
Fulgore x74
Lu Bu (Dynasty Warriors) x70
[Rerate] Ezio x70
Concept: A non-videogame character gets a Mii Costume x65
Boss: Ender Dragon x61
Echo: Xion (Sora) x58
Concept: More ATs as one new item x55
Sakura Shinguji x52
50 - 25
Dwight Fairfield (Dead by Daylight) x50
Mii Costume: Jill Stingray x50
Concept: SNES-era Final Fantasy rep x50
The Terrarian x50
Concept: Content from currently unreleased game (not Spirit Events) (as of May 17th 2020) x50
Echo: Zeraora (Lucario) x45
Echo: Dark Bowser (Bowser) x44
Austin the Butler (Gardenscapes) x40
Billy Hatcher x40
Echo: Lord Fredrik (King K. Rool) x39
Stage: Bowser's Castle x38
Gooigi x37
Giygas x35
Concept: Second F-Zero rep x34
Urbosa x30
Concept: Assist Trophies added in updates x27
Rival Pokémon Trainer x25
Concept: Dark Souls rep x25
Concept: Deltarune content x25
Riptor x25
The Bard (Wandersong) x25
Under 25
Concept: Returning stages x21
Jin Sakai x20
Concept: Fighter Pass Volume 2 is half Nintendo and half third party x20
Zeraora x15
Black Shadow x15
Wolf Link x15
Concept: FP2 character comes with an Echo Fighter x15
Lora and Jin x15
[Rerate] Monster Hunter x15
Boss: Rayquaza x14
Magolor x12
[Rerate] Jin Kazama x10
[Rerate] Monokuma x10
Gran/Djeeta x10
Otto Matic x10
The Avatar (Ultima) x10
Neptune (Hyperdimension Neptunia) x10
Concept: Bravely Default rep x10
Concept: Rocket League repx10
Mii Costume: Alex Kidd x10
Medusa (Kid Icarus) x10
[Rerate] Maxwell x10
[Rerate] Concept: Boss Rush x10
Klonoa x10
Jason Frudnick & SOPHIA x10
Chell x8
Taranza x6
Concept: Darkstalkers rep x6
Sparky (Clash Royale) x5
Concept: Overwatch character x5
Asha (Wonder Boy) x5
Mii Costume: Hat Kid x5
Concept: Portal 2 rep x5
Breath of the Wild 2 Ganondorf x5
Tick (Brawl Stars) x5
King Graham x5
Concept: Fortnite character x5
Cooking Mama x5
Jill (Drill Dozer) x5
Asuka (Senran Kagura) x5
Furret x5
Deku Scrub x5
Mii Costume: Edward Falcon x5
Concept: A LABO character x5
Cynthia x5
Concept: Bonus character x5
John Marston x5
Concept: No AT promotions x5
[Rerate] Morrigan Aensland x5
[Rerate] Cadence x5
Octoling x5
Kazuya Mishima x5
Excitebiker x5
Zero (Mega Man) x5 Concept: Generic Zora x3
Three Mage Sisters x2
Concept: A Pokémon Trainer who fights x2
Concept: A fighter who uses all kicks x2
[Rerate] Metal Sonic x2
Concept: Generic Goron x2
Mii Costume: Jacket x2
Echo (Olimar) x1
Wow, I'm surprised there hasn't been a single nomination for some kind of League of Legends rep. There's even Rocket League in there before a LoL rep. Guess people don't really think much of it at all.
Wow, I'm surprised there hasn't been a single nomination for some kind of League of Legends rep. There's even Rocket League in there before a LoL rep. Guess people don't really think much of it at all.
Wow, I'm surprised there hasn't been a single nomination for some kind of League of Legends rep. There's even Rocket League in there before a LoL rep. Guess people don't really think much of it at all.
Best version would probably be Cave Story+ on Steam which is on sale right now for $4.94 before July 9th. Includes different modes, classic/new graphic options, and the ability to play as Curly.
EDIT: Almost forgot that Cave Story+ is also on Switch.
You can also get the original for free at cavestory.org. It was originally a freeware game so this is 100% legal.
You either can keep nominating him or stop there and nominate another character/concept.. I would recommend keeping on nominating him because the top 7 is going to be changing a lot until this whole rerate schedule is over. You can keep him in the same spot, but people will keep nominating other characters and concepts so you run the risk of him falling off the top 7. Once the rerate schedule is done, the top 7 will be locked. At that point noms towards those characters/concepts will be null and void. Either Sari, GoodGrief, or TCTPhantom will announce when it is the last day/opportunity to affect the top 7. If you end up nominating a character that is already locked, GoodGrief will let you know.
That might be more information than you wanted but at least you are now on the same page.
Despite using this site for over a year now, this is my first time posting in this thread so here we go:
Shantae
Chance: 20%
I’ve never believed Spirits to deconfirm fighters, but spirits still do act as hurdles to a fighter’s inclusion. Especially when you have two spirits. Anyways, the Shantae series was very influential, but stacking an indie series against more mainstream (for lack of a better term) series with even more of an influence on the gaming industry that could be added to Smash, just makes me feel like Shantae is more unlikely
Want: 30%
I’ve never played a Shantae game, but the popularity of Shantae makes me want this character in Smash. However, she isn’t as much of a priority in my opinion because of a little thing called Mii costumes. I think knowing how limited Smash is in terms of characters, she would make a better Mii costume
Quote
Chance: 15%
Cave Story was influential, but kinda got swept under the rug as more and more indie series like Undertale or Minecraft got popular, because of existing before the Internet was big. That’s why Quote probably dosen't have that big of a chance compared to other indie games. (I probably would have made his % lower if CaveStory didn’t get rereleased as CaveStory +)
Want: 25%
This guy used to be my main request back in the day. But now I see him more as a Mii Costume. And believe me, I want him as a Mii costume. He’s probably my #1 pick for Mii costumes, so... yeah my want % is pretty low
Wait, who beat him? Knowing GiIvaSunner's fans, it was probably something god awful.
Quote, The Soldier from the Surface:
Chance: 20% - One of the only major indies with no content in Smash, Quote is undeniably a frontrunner in the race for an indie rep. Despite not having the mematic popularity of Touhou or the extreme fan demand of Shantae, and despite it's gradually waning popularity as other indies take the scene, Cave Story has extreme historical significance of starting the Indie Boom, and was extremely popular up until the mid 2010's (remember that "Play Cave Story" was the original "Play Undertale"; a relatively popular LPer I frequently watch had a rule AGAINST suggesting Cave Story simply due to how often requests for the game flooded the suggestions thread. It was just THAT popular!). That historical element is something Sakurai would find extremely appealing. Plus all of those big indies of today like Undertale and Shovel Knight owe A LOT to Cave Story and its' success (in fact, Toby Fox himself was a huge fan of Cave Story and you can see a lot of the inspiration from it throughout Undertale, from story elements to character designs). While rarely brought up or talked about in Smash speculation, Quote typically polls very well, showing that the fan demand is certainly there. Plus Min Min's weapon switching mechanics could play very nicely for designing Quote.
One might bring up the IP's current owner Nicalis as a detriment, due to being a very toxic company. But with Nintendo doing deals with Tencent for the Switch's release in China (granted, that was due to China's laws, but still), and us getting Castlevania/Bomberman/Metal Gear content in Smash despite Konami being Konami, this really isn't an issue. Furthermore, Nicalis by contract still needs to consult with Pixel whenever they want to do anything with the IP, and Pixel would definitely be on board with Smash.
Let's not forget Cave Story's more extensive Nintendo history. Despite being a single game, it was ported to the Wii to great acclaim (soundtrack aside) and has been on every Nintendo system (aside from the Wii U) since. It even got its' own 3D graphical remake on the 3DS!
While Quote isn't a pillar of fan demand, and still has his fair share of competition, he does have a pretty good shot at playability of Nintendo decides to add an indie character. He's got the longtime history with Nintendo, and if characters like Joker or Terry are any example, fan demand isn't everything, and that less likely picks aren't to be discounted. Quote deserves more discussion!
Want: 100% - My all time favorite indie game, Cave Story is the indie I want to see represented most in Smash! Being an extremely historical title and one with fantastic gameplay, great music, and a good story, it has more than earned the spot! I have very positive memories of playing the game during high school, and it would mean a lot to me to see it immortalized in Smash!
Shantae
Chance: 15% - With Min Min proving that spirits are back on the table, and with her revitalized fanbase, Shantae is no candidate to scoff at. Wayforward has maintained an excellent relationship with Nintendo and has received a bit of content in Smash, proving that Nintendo things highly of them. Shantae also has Nintendo history dating back to the Gameboy Color, which is also a factor in her favor. While her current game was a bit of a step backward, I don't see that as being a problem either, as I can't see Shantae being added purely for advertising. I only see Shantae facing two problems, which are her Western origins and difficult competition. But company collaboration was what resulted in Banjo, so it's definitely a coin toss for Shantae.
Want: 10% - She'd definitely have a cool stage, fun music, and a super creative moveset with her hair and transformations! But as someone who really wants to see Quote in the game, adding another indie character would basically kill his chances.
Nominations:
[Rerate] Prince of All Cosmos x 10 (why he isn't on the fixed schedule while KOS-MOS is is beyond me. Also if spirits don't deconfirm, then why would Pac Man's taunt?)
That is true, Pirates curse really is what got her popularity really going. Riskies revenge mostly started the ball rolling if anything and reminded people she existed.
And didn't the HGH Kickstarter pop up before Pirate's Curse even launch? If so, then I'm pretty sure that attracted a fair bit of attention to her as well.
I feel that while Minecraft's Steve has potential, Shantae is more unique with her whipping hair, middle eastern theme, and transformation spells, plus Reggie said that characters in the 1st Fighters Pass are ones you wouldn't anticipate to be in the game, so the same should apply on the 2nd pass.
I feel that while Minecraft's Steve has potential, Shantae is more unique with her whipping hair, middle eastern theme, and transformation spells, plus Reggie said that characters in the 1st Fighters Pass are ones you wouldn't anticipate to be in the game, so the same should apply on the 2nd pass.
I just checked, and it was aganist ZUN and Papyrus, so aganist Touhou and UT music. For the context, it's the king for another day tournament, where fans vote for which music rip they prefer.
Having fighters you wouldn't anticipate to be in SSBU especially if they're worthy of joining the battle makes things more interesting. I didn't anticipate Min Min to be in because she was a fighter. A lot of people are expecting Sora from Kingdom Hearts which is more popular with the general audience currently than Geno, yet it may be the latter who gets in. Remember how Banjo got in when Steve was expected as the Microsoft rep?
Having fighters you wouldn't anticipate to be in SSBU especially if they're worthy of joining the battle makes things more interesting. I didn't anticipate Min Min to be in because she was a fighter. A lot of people are expecting Sora from Kingdom Hearts which is more popular with the general audience currently than Geno, yet it may be the latter who gets in. Remember how Banjo got in when Steve was expected as the Microsoft rep?
But there's nothing so far that explicitly says Reggie's words still apply. Unexpected characters are cool and all, but nothing has been said regarding the second fighter's pass in general beyond the tentative release date and the fact that Sakurai can't accept any requests on Twitter dot com.
I'm double abstaining on Quote. Dunno how I feel about him.
The other one, though?
My #2 pick for an Indie (Assuming Shovel Knight is out of the running, otherwise she drops to #3)
Chance: 30%
I think a lot of people overstate Shantae's legacy. Let's be real here, it wasn't until Pirate's Curse that Shantae really took off (It REALLY doesn't help that Shantae's first game bombed due to being released on a LONG-DEAD console.) So despite her TECHNICALLY debuting before even Quote (The original Shantae on the GBC released in 2002, two years before Cave Story), her legacy still doesn't quite measure up to Quote's, LET ALONE the absolute winner in that regard, Reimu (who predates even the GBC Shantae game by SIX YEARS). Despite this, Shantae does have some strong points. To start with, while her legacy doesn't measure up to Cave Story and Touhou Project, she does still stand about on par with Shovel Knight, given that Pirate's Curse released around the same time period that Shovel Knight made his debut, which is still no mean feat considering that her rival is, well, Shovel Knight. She's also pretty popular in the west, though to that regard she suffers an Inverse Reimu: She's not really all that popular in Japan. From what I hear her popularity IS growing in Japan, but again, that basically makes her inverse Reimu (Who is extremely popular in eastern territories like Japan, and has lesser, but growing, popularity in the west).
Want: 50%.
Shantae is actually quite far up there on my most wanted list. Not quite to the levels of Yuri, Crash or, god forbid, Reimu, but I can certainly see a good argument for the half-genie making it into Smash. The only reason this number isn't higher, however, is because, as an indie rep, she basically already competes with Reimu which automatically knocks that want score down a few points because, y'know. Reimu's my most wanted.
Also, personal gripe here: WHY do people rag on Reimu's design being 'sexual bait' but then start praising Shantae?! She's more scantily dressed and provocative then even the least modest Touhou character, let alone Reimu!
I'm double abstaining on Quote. Dunno how I feel about him.
The other one, though?
My #2 pick for an Indie (Assuming Shovel Knight is out of the running, otherwise she drops to #3)
Chance: 30%
I think a lot of people overstate Shantae's legacy. Let's be real here, it wasn't until Pirate's Curse that Shantae really took off (It REALLY doesn't help that Shantae's first game bombed due to being released on a LONG-DEAD console. So despite her TECHNICALLY debuting before even Quote (The original Shantae on the GBC released in 2002, two years before Cave Story), her legacy still doesn't quite measure up to Quote's, LET ALONE the absolute winner in that regard, Reimu (who predates even the GBC Shantae game by SIX YEARS). Despite this, Shantae does have some strong points. To start with, while her legacy doesn't measure up to Cave Story and Touhou Project, she does still stand about on par with Shovel Knight, given that Pirate's Curse released around the same time period that Shovel Knight made his debut, which is still no mean feat considering that her rival is, well, Shovel Knight. She's also pretty popular in the west, though to that regard she suffers an Inverse Reimu: She's not really all that popular in Japan. From what I hear her popularity IS growing in Japan, but again, that basically makes her inverse Reimu (Who is extremely popular in eastern territories like Japan, and has lesser, but growing, popularity in the west).
Want: 50%.
Shantae is actually quite far up there on my most wanted list. Not quite to the levels of Yuri, Crash or, god forbid, Reimu, but I can certainly see a good argument for the half-genie making it into Smash. The only reason this number isn't higher, however, is because, as an indie rep, she basically already competes with Reimu which automatically knocks that want score down a few points because, y'know. Reimu's my most wanted.
Also, personal gripe here: WHY do people rag on Reimu's design being 'sexual bait' but then start praising Shantae?! She's more scantily dressed and provocative then even the least modest Touhou character, let alone Reimu!
I mean, apparently Shantae has a big following in Japan, to the point of getting Studio Trigger to work on the intro for the new game. Obviously not to Touhou levels of huge, but it's there.
I'm double abstaining on Quote. Dunno how I feel about him.
The other one, though?
My #2 pick for an Indie (Assuming Shovel Knight is out of the running, otherwise she drops to #3)
Chance: 30%
I think a lot of people overstate Shantae's legacy. Let's be real here, it wasn't until Pirate's Curse that Shantae really took off (It REALLY doesn't help that Shantae's first game bombed due to being released on a LONG-DEAD console. So despite her TECHNICALLY debuting before even Quote (The original Shantae on the GBC released in 2002, two years before Cave Story), her legacy still doesn't quite measure up to Quote's, LET ALONE the absolute winner in that regard, Reimu (who predates even the GBC Shantae game by SIX YEARS). Despite this, Shantae does have some strong points. To start with, while her legacy doesn't measure up to Cave Story and Touhou Project, she does still stand about on par with Shovel Knight, given that Pirate's Curse released around the same time period that Shovel Knight made his debut, which is still no mean feat considering that her rival is, well, Shovel Knight. She's also pretty popular in the west, though to that regard she suffers an Inverse Reimu: She's not really all that popular in Japan. From what I hear her popularity IS growing in Japan, but again, that basically makes her inverse Reimu (Who is extremely popular in eastern territories like Japan, and has lesser, but growing, popularity in the west).
Want: 50%.
Shantae is actually quite far up there on my most wanted list. Not quite to the levels of Yuri, Crash or, god forbid, Reimu, but I can certainly see a good argument for the half-genie making it into Smash. The only reason this number isn't higher, however, is because, as an indie rep, she basically already competes with Reimu which automatically knocks that want score down a few points because, y'know. Reimu's my most wanted.
Also, personal gripe here: WHY do people rag on Reimu's design being 'sexual bait' but then start praising Shantae?! She's more scantily dressed and provocative then even the least modest Touhou character, let alone Reimu!
I've seen it more than a couple of times, mostly from Reimu detractors. It's probably the fact that she's a Shrine Maiden, a character archetype that's kinda common in fanservice-y games.
I've seen it more than a couple of times, mostly from Reimu detractors. It's probably the fact that she's a Shrine Maiden, a character archetype that's kinda common in fanservice-y games.
I feel like "waifu bait" is just how a lot of people dismiss any female character who they don't want in Smash, honestly. If you don't get why a character is as popular as she is, then just assume it's because the audience wants to sleep with her!
It's annoying; I'd try not to let it get to you...
I feel like "waifu bait" is just how a lot of people dismiss any female character who they don't want in Smash, honestly. If you don't get why a character is as popular as she is, then just assume it's because the audience wants to sleep with her!
It's annoying; I'd try not to let it get to you...
