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Rate Their Chances - Smash Ultimate Edition! Day 672: Five Most Likely First and Third Parties for Smash 6, and Final Goodbyes

YoshiandToad

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Shantae

Chance: 1%
Technically not impossible, but between a Spirit, that DLC seems to be aimed at critically acclaimed third parties at current and Shantae's middling popularity, I'm not sure why she'd be chosen over more critically acclaimed franchises, indie or otherwise. I also don't believe the window means anything. Heck, at best it could just reference she IS in Smash...as a Spirit.

I also struggle to envision Shantae getting in over fellow third party Spirit Rayman if they do decide to pluck up a Spirit seeing how popular he is comparitively. One of them is a 26 million unit seller after all and if you want to get reliable DLC purchases it makes sense to add the more popular character. Heck, maybe even Geno has a better chance since his Smash fanbase is even more vocal than Shantae's?

Needless to say Shantae has stiff competition on every front; Steve's a bigger indie character(to the extent he's arguably the face of an entire generation of gamers), Shovel Knight's a more successful indie and only managed to warrant an assist Trophy inclusion, Rayman's a bigger gaming icon and in the same position as her, Geno has a louder fanbase and Sans, as much of a meme as he is seen as, comes from a far more successful indie series that Japan really connected with.

Want: 30%
I have no strong opinion on Shantae herself, and I certainly like the crisp cartoony aesthetic of the characters in her series which appeals to me more than say...Shovel Knight, Minecraft or even Undertale do, but her fanbase's optimism is frankly baffling to me and something I'll never truly understand.

Unfortunately as much as Shantae's look and style appeals to me, the only Indie title I think that is big enough to warrant a playable character in Smash is Minecraft. Not entirely sure I'd be down for anyone else. Arguably Quote or Sans/Frisk because they are stupidly big indie titles but I'd still personally prefer more juggernaut series to get in like Resident Evil, Crash Bandicoot or Tomb Raider.

Professor Layton

Chance: 10%
Going for the professor: he's not got any other role in the game which is a huge plus in his favour annnnd... that's about it. Layton's a successful series but I have to wonder how effective he'd be as a DLC fighter rather than base.

Level-5 worked close with Nintendo but as we've seen with Rayman that doesn't always mean anything. Slight chance if they go for a Level 5 character Yo-kai Watch's Jibanyan could get chosen instead.

Want: 37%
I like Layton and I like his games. They're really nifty puzzle titles and some of the best I've ever played. I can't say I'm particularly excited by the idea of him in Smash as a playable fighter however, although he does get points for that slot machine gun which always makes me laugh.

Edit: I forgot Nominations and Predictions:

Predictions:
Byleth: 7.35%
Edelgard: 6.5%
Dimitri: 2.04%
Claude: 2.08%

There's no reason to expect Edelgard more than the other two houses, and yet I think she'll be the most overestimated of the trio.

Nominations:
Lara Croft X 5
 
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Vrbtm

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Indie game = from an independent studio. One that doesn't have backing from a big publisher.

WayForward retained the rights to Shantae, not Capcom, and then self published all other titles. Therefore indie.
Regardless of who "retains" the rights, the first game was still published by Capcom. Therefore, not indie.

So by your definition Shovel knight isnt a indie character.
Yes he is.
 

Nquoid

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Regardless of who "retains" the rights, the first game was still published by Capcom. Therefore, not indie.
Who just put out a finished game. They had no input in development which is another important distinction when discussing independents.

Games like Braid are indie, but were initially published by Microsoft on XBLA, but because the developers retain the rights they're independent and then self published in all other forms in release.

At the end of the day independent studios go to big publishers all the time to try and get their game in front of a bigger crowd. Unless that publisher foots the bill for development, the title remains independent.

But you're going to tell me I'm wrong and that company hasn't been involved in the franchise for 20 years is the deciding factor in whether or not Shantae is owned and distributed solely by a small development studio.
 
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zferolie

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Regardless of who "retains" the rights, the first game was still published by Capcom. Therefore, not indie.

Yes he is.
So then cuphead isnt indie, even though everyone considers that an indie game, since microsoft helped publish it. Thats if we use your logic.
 

Vrbtm

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But you're going to tell me I'm wrong and that company hasn't been involved in the franchise for 20 years is the deciding factor in whether or not Shantae is owned and distributed solely by a small development studio.
That is correct.

So then cuphead isnt indie, even though everyone considers that an indie game, since microsoft helped publish it. Thats if we use your logic.
I think that's fair.

If we go by YOUR logic, Nintendo is an indie company.
 
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Troykv

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I don't have anything particular to say about this day; I'm a bit late to the party... so I'll just do the predictions and nominations.

___

Predictions:

Byleth: 9.6%
Edelgard: 9.5%
Dimitri: 4.5%
Claude: 3.2%

Nominations:

Micaiah (Fire Emblem) x5
 

TheCJBrine

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That is correct.

I think that's fair.

If we go by YOUR logic, Nintendo is an indie company.
I guess Cuphead isn’t an indie and Nintendo is stupid for putting it in their Nindies Direct.

Indies are indies due to being made by small, independent companies, not being owned by a company or having stock in others like Nintendo does. Cuphead’s company isn’t owned by Microsoft nor has any subsidiaries, same with Way Forward, and Mojang before Microsoft bought Minecraft and them.
 
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BowserKing

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You need to give one concrete number for your rating to count. "20 to 40" won't count when the scores are tallied.
Sometimes it's difficult to place the percentage. The lowest is 20% and the highest is 40%

If you want to include mine in the tally, then 30% would be the balanced number. FWI, Fixed
 

zferolie

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That is correct.

I think that's fair.

If we go by YOUR logic, Nintendo is an indie company.
Are you arguing just to argue? I said that an indie company is a small 1 studio company. Nintendo has dozens of studios. Microsoft owns more. Wayforward is just wayforward.
 

GoodGrief741

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I'll edit noms into this post so stay tuned.

Ryu Hayabusa
44.00% Chance, 57.03% Want
Winner of predictions was RealPokeFan11 RealPokeFan11 with 46.83%. Curiously, they also predicted him last round.
Last time we rated him he got 46.95% Chance and 66.50% Want. Slight dips in both places, which was surprising since given how scores were initially trending it looked like he was going to end up higher. We had rated him two days before Joker's trailer, so at that point the 'leak' backing him was very much alive and kicking. Though it does say something to his credentials that after the leak falling apart he held on so well. As for the want reduction, two less slots to go, so maybe people are more picky?

Chosen Undead
18.16% Chance, 23.67% Want
Winner of predictions was Nemuresu Nemuresu with 18.46%

Extra noms

Artix Artix 5
Awakining Awakining 5
DaUsername DaUsername 50
Delzethin Delzethin 5
FancySmash FancySmash 5
GoodGrief741 GoodGrief741 40
Nemuresu Nemuresu 10
Neosonic97 Neosonic97 5
RealPokeFan11 RealPokeFan11 5
Ridrool64 Ridrool64 5
shocktarts17 shocktarts17 5
Ramen Tengoku Ramen Tengoku 5
Ultomato Ultomato 5
@Velveeta Dream 5

A spirit is great and dont get me wrong, its very honorable and great they got that. But saying thats all they deserve is downroght disrespectful to everyone working at that company.
Considering how gaming juggernauts like Mortal Kombat or Crash Bandicoot have zero representation, it's abolutely an honor to be a Spirit at all. It's not disrespectful to anyone to say that they don't deserve more, it's just an opinion and honestly anything above nothing should be considered more than enough.
Nightmare x5
Just to be clear, are you talking Soul Calibur's Nightmare or the Kirby guy? If it's the Kirby guy then he's an AT so he can't be nominated.
Rayman's a bigger gaming icon and in the same position as her
I'd say since Shantae isn't obscure in Japan that she's better off than Rayman iconicness-wise.
Regardless of who "retains" the rights, the first game was still published by Capcom. Therefore, not indie.
Name one indie franchise.

Shovel Knight already doesn't qualify for your (mistaken) standards because it's had games published by Nintendo.
 

Opossum

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Shantae: 0% in both Chance and Want

Chance: Simply put, she has a spirit. Based on when Banjo was negotiated, I view this as a solid disconfirmation.

Want: Honestly I was just never interested in the character. Plus if we were to get an indie character, there are several I'd want more than Shantae.
 

zferolie

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Shantae: 0% in both Chance and Want

Chance: Simply put, she has a spirit. Based on when Banjo was negotiated, I view this as a solid disconfirmation.

Want: Honestly I was just never interested in the character. Plus if we were to get an indie character, there are several I'd want more than Shantae.
I have not heard any proof of thats when they started negotiating banjo. Isnt it just rumors? I just want hard facts then just hearsay you know?
 

Dukefire

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While Shantae had a rocky start from the GBC's lifespan being taken over by the GBA, she was still on a Nintendo console exclusive for years before moving towards multi consoles.

Of course, we are at a point where other potential indies are possibly better with their impact and the feeling is that there can be only one.

Though, Smash Ultimate is a celebration of Gaming as a Whole, so anything is possible regarding one being relevant or irrelevant.

Like one such as Banjo-Kazooie.
 

GoodGrief741

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I have not heard any proof of thats when they started negotiating banjo. Isnt it just rumors? I just want hard facts then just hearsay you know?
Opossum claims to have insider info on that specific aspect, so I think they're the only person for whom that information doesn't qualify as hearsay.
 

GoodGrief741

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I decided to just make a new post for nominations because that other one is pretty cluttered.

Heavy (Team Fortress) x183
Crono x155
Kyle Hyde x150
Cadence (Crypt of the Necrodancer) x140
Kamek x139
Ellie (The Last of Us) x120
Saber (Fate) x117

150 - 101

Rundas x115
Concept: Rockstar Games rep x115
Gene (God Hand) x110
Protector (Etrian Odyssey) x105

100 - 51

Aloy x100
Ninten x100
Velvet Crowe x100
Concept: Valve rep x95
Boss: Kracko x95
Terry Bogard x95
Specter Knight x90
Frogger x85
Glover x85
[Rerate] Micaiah x85
Noctis Lucis Caelum x80
9-Volt x80
Adeleine (Kirby) x78
Jin Kazama x75
Blaze the Cat x70
X (Mega Man) x68
Captain Rainbow x67
Concept: More Bosses x65
Sunflower (Plants vs. Zombies) x60
Concept: Dragalia Lost rep x55
Papyrus x51
Decidueye x51

50 - 25

Brian (Quest 64) x47
Dwight Fairfield (Dead by Daylight) x40
[Rerate] Reimu Hakurei x38
Gooey (Kirby) x37
Concept: DLC challenges x35
Concept: Another western character x35
Kyo Kusanagi x35
Lara Croft x35
Farmer (Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons) x33
Earthworm Jim x33
Concept: Assist Trophy becomes Fighter x30
Qbby x30
Cooking Mama x30
Amaterasu x30
Kratos x30
Proto Man x30
Thrall (Warcraft) x25
Boss: Perfect Chaos x25

Under 25

Concept: Pokéball Pokémon becomes fighter x22
Reporter & Wrestler x20
Tora and Poppi x20
Johnny Silverhand x20
Concept: Spirits aren’t disconfirmations x18
King Boo x16
Hector (Fire Emblem) x15
Pyra & Mythra (sans Rex) x15
Zhao Yun (Dynasty Warriors) x15
Marx (Kirby) x14
Black Shadow x13
Concept: Another joke character x13
Concept: Grookey's final evolution x13
Gex x12
Concept: Lord Fredrik as an Echo Fighter of K. Rool x12
Mike Jones x11
Concept: Bethesda rep x10
Frog (Chrono Trigger) x10
Beat (Jet Set Radio) x10
Concept: Spectator Emotes x10
Concept: Medabots rep x10
Sir Arthur (Ghosts 'n Goblins) x10
Magolor x9
Toon Zelda x8
Blacephalon x5
Neptune x5
Concept: Crazi Taxi rep x5
Oliver (Ni No Kuni) x5
Courier (Fallout) x5
Scorpion x5
Concept: Another literally who Level-5 Character who's popular in Japan, like Achilles or Mark Evans x5
Starman (Pro Wrestling) x5
Malzahar (League of Legends) x5
Concept: Master Chief Mii Costume x5
Worm (Worms) x5
Balloon Fighter x5
Tiz Arrior x5
[Rerate] Dovahkiin x5
Rash x5
Nightmare (Soul Calibur) x5
Concept: League of Legends rep x5
Serious Sam x5
Concept: A character outside the Fighter Pass x5
Goemon (Mystical Ninja) x5
Urbosa x5
Gordon Freeman x5
Lizalfos x4
Concept: No More DLC x3
[Rerate] Sans x3
Boss: Sans x2
Sub-Zero x2
Concept: Street Fighter Mii costumes x2
Rad Spencer x2
Stahl x1
Duster x1
Pappy Van Poodle x1
Dr. Eggman x1
Toon Zelda & Tetra x1
[Rerate] Chibi-Robo x1

Cadence dances past Kamek and stops in fourth place.

Gene punches past 100 noms.

Concept: Dragalia Lost rep crosses the 50 nom mark and is now safe from the Purge.

On another note, thank God that guy got banned. I wish they'd make it a permanent thing, but at least we get some respite.
 

Calamitas

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Opossum claims to have insider info on that specific aspect, so I think they're the only person for whom that information doesn't qualify as hearsay.
Wasn't there an official statement by Rare as well, saying that they already started having talks with Sakurai and his team last year?
 

Dukefire

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Opossum claims to have insider info on that specific aspect, so I think they're the only person for whom that information doesn't qualify as hearsay.
Most information as of right now isn't true with how airtight Sakurai and Nintendo sealed the leaks.
 

GoodGrief741

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Wasn't there an official statement by Rare as well, saying that they already started having talks with Sakurai and his team last year?
That would be news to me, would you mind providing a source?
Most information as of right now isn't true with how airtight Sakurai and Nintendo sealed the leaks.
I'm not making any statement on its veracity, only that they're not repeating hearsay without basis.
 

Opossum

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Most information as of right now isn't true with how airtight Sakurai and Nintendo sealed the leaks.
All I can say is that I have every reason to trust this since it isn't just one source backing it. For the sake of not giving too much away though, I can't speak on it further.
 

zferolie

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Opossum claims to have insider info on that specific aspect, so I think they're the only person for whom that information doesn't qualify as hearsay.
So just insider info. Untill the qord of god says it im not going to beleive it. So far smash has been very air tight save for a few things.

Also, i forgot to nom someone. Give my noms to Cadance.

All I can say is that I have every reason to trust this since it isn't just one source backing it. For the sake of not giving too much away though, I can't speak on it further.
And i am sure they may be legit. I just dont want to believe this stuff till further proof. You understand. Same reason why i dont beleive in any fan rules right now, as Sakurao has smash so many fan rules in this game.
 
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Dukefire

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Relevant characters matter: Banjo-Kazooie, and Ice Climbers to name a few wasn't relevant and still made it
No western characters: King K Rool and Banjo-Kazooie
No indie: Commander Video as a Trophy in Smash 4 and now Shovel Knight as Assist Trophy. Wall is almost broken.
Characters with no ties to nintendo can't enter: Cloud and Snake would like to have a word
Too Big for Smash: Ridley was reduced to fit after waiting to Ultimate.
 

zferolie

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Relevant characters matter: Banjo-Kazooie, and Ice Climbers to name a few wasn't relevant and still made it
No western characters: King K Rool and Banjo-Kazooie
No indie: Commander Video as a Trophy in Smash 4 and now Shovel Knight as Assist Trophy. Wall is almost broken.
Characters with no ties to nintendo can't enter: Cloud and Snake would like to have a word
Too Big for Smash: Ridley was reduced to fit after waiting to Ultimate.
Technically the first metal gear was on NES, but thays also true for FF. So the character wasnt tied to nintendo but the series is. Same with Joker from Persona 5.
 

GoodGrief741

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So just insider info. Untill the qord of god says it im not going to beleive it. So far smash has been very air tight save for a few things.
Are we thinking about the same Smash? Because aside from Joker and three Echoes everything got leaked for this one.
Also, i forgot to nom someone. Give my noms to Cadance.
If it's not too much of a bother could you edit that into your original post?
Characters with no ties to nintendo can't enter: Cloud and Snake would like to have a word
Cloud and Snake had ties to Nintendo before entering.
 

chocolatejr9

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Shantae

Chance: 0%
Third party characters as Spirits seems pretty damaging to their chances of getting in. Plus, apparently the creator was encouraging people to ask for her inclusion, as if she wasn't in. On top of that, we don't actually know if indies are even in contention.
Want: 5%
She would have a unique moveset, I'll give her that. Still, I never got into the series as well as everyone else has. She honestly doesn't click with me.

Professor Layton
Chance: 50%
Maybe I'm being generous, but I do think Level-5 will get a rep in this DLC. My problem is that I think it may be a coin flip between him and Jibanyan (they may want to use Smash to promote Yo-kai Watch). If it's not one, it could very well be the other.
Want: 20%
I know he has a lot of supporters, but I honestly don't see him working. I haven't played his games, mind you, but I don't know if he has much of a moveset to draw from. Plus, if I'm being honest, I'd rather have Jibanyan as the Level-5 rep.

Nominations: Brian (Quest 64) x3, Reimu Hakurei x2
 

MrMcNuts

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I'd say since Shantae isn't obscure in Japan that she's better off than Rayman iconicness-wise.
I know you're kinda anti Rayman but he's definitely not less iconic than shantae dude. Not even being anti shantae but he's definitely bigger than her

Also rating time:

Shantae
Chance 0%
Her creator talked about campaigning for her right after the fighter pass was announced. So I think that's a deconfirm. Also there are plenty other big third partys that need to get in before her

Want: 1%

She wouldn't be the worst since there are slap in the face options like rabbids and Ezio, but I definitely don't think she's earned a place I'm smash yet

Layton
Chance: 10%
Maybe he can get in but I don't think he's a front runner

Want: 40%

No attachement to him but he'd be alright
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Relevant characters matter: Banjo-Kazooie, and Ice Climbers to name a few wasn't relevant and still made it
No western characters: King K Rool and Banjo-Kazooie
No indie: Commander Video as a Trophy in Smash 4 and now Shovel Knight as Assist Trophy. Wall is almost broken.
Characters with no ties to nintendo can't enter: Cloud and Snake would like to have a word
Too Big for Smash: Ridley was reduced to fit after waiting to Ultimate.
Banjo-Kazooie was fully relevant with constant re-releases, promotion by Microsoft alone(so kept in the spotlight) and had new products via Merchandise.

Cloud and Snake aren't a great point. Snake definitely not. Cloud is more like a borderline case of not being really tied to Nintendo by any real means(just small appearances) instead. Joker is even less tied to Nintendo than Cloud, as Persona as a series barely has any Nintendo appearances. FF had multiple, though FFVII had none. That's why Cloud is way more borderline while Joker is pretty much as untied as you can get.
 

3BitSaurus

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Banjo-Kazooie was fully relevant with constant re-releases, promotion by Microsoft alone(so kept in the spotlight) and had new products via Merchandise.

Cloud and Snake aren't a great point. Snake definitely not. Cloud is more like a borderline case of not being really tied to Nintendo by any real means(just small appearances) instead. Joker is even less tied to Nintendo than Cloud, as Persona as a series barely has any Nintendo appearances. FF had multiple, though FFVII had none. That's why Cloud is way more borderline while Joker is pretty much as untied as you can get.
True. Any more untied than Joker and you'd need a character who literally has no presence in a Nintendo console, like Kratos or Master Chief. Joker literally has only one appearance. Cloud had... two, I think.

I'd find it hilarious if one of the last two newcomers was the one to give the killing blow to that fanrule.
 

Mushroomguy12

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Banjo-Kazooie was fully relevant with constant re-releases, promotion by Microsoft alone(so kept in the spotlight) and had new products via Merchandise.



Cloud and Snake aren't a great point. Snake definitely not. Cloud is more like a borderline case of not being really tied to Nintendo by any real means(just small appearances) instead. Joker is even less tied to Nintendo than Cloud, as Persona as a series barely has any Nintendo appearances. FF had multiple, though FFVII had none. That's why Cloud is way more borderline while Joker is pretty much as untied as you can get.
True. Any more untied than Joker and you'd need a character who literally has no presence in a Nintendo console, like Kratos or Master Chief. Joker literally has only one appearance. Cloud had... two, I think.

I'd find it hilarious if one of the last two newcomers was the one to give the killing blow to that fanrule.
Persona is still a spin off of a series that is tied to Nintendo: Shin Megami Tensei, which managed to not only appear on Nintendo consoles galore but make a direct crossover with Fire Emblem, similar to how Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy made direct crossovers with Mario in the past. I'd say there are still a couple of tiers between Joker and characters like Kratos and Chief. Even Chief is probably a tier above Kratos due to his Minecraft appearance and Microsoft being much friendlier than Sony to Smash Bros.
 
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Dukefire

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Whatever happens, we all know that Sakurai and Nintendo has more surprises coming soon to knock people off of their chairs.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Persona is still a spin off of a series that is tied to Nintendo: Shin Megami Tensei, which managed to not only appear on Nintendo consoles galore but make a direct crossover with Fire Emblem, similar to how Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy made direct crossovers with Mario in the past. I'd say there are still a couple of tiers between Joker and characters like Kratos and Chief. Even Chief is probably a tier above Kratos due to his Minecraft appearance and Microsoft being much friendlier than Sony to Smash Bros.
I don't consider that as a case of having some "heavy" ties. That feels way too loose at this point. We have zero Shin Megami Tensei stuff in Smash. It's pure Persona here. It's treated as separately as possible. So this feels like a stretch to me entirely. Yeah, I feel the ties are barely there.

It's barely a tier below stuff like Halo(which already had a Nintendo cameo in some way via the Halo Mash-Up Pack. That's a Master Chief cameo to me, so I do treat him as he's had a type of appearance on a Nintendo console anyway). God of War is clearly different, but that's only because a Persona game was actually on Nintendo first. Doesn't mean I consider it as having a lot of ties either. That's why I said it was as untied as you can get, because he's the character in Smash least tied to Nintendo right now, with barely a game in his name(where his own series appeared once). Though yeah, you already get what I mean by how Halo and God of War are different tiers before I even said this. But anyway.

I don't treat spin-offs as hefty ties whatsoever. I treat them as their own thing, with slight ties due to the game they're spun-off from. So again, it's more "as untied as you can get" means very little. There's still ties, but it's not much at all. If we didn't have the Persona game but still Joker in, I'd say "barely has a tie due to the SMT part". There's a fairly small difference in how big the ties are with the Persona game kept in mind.
 
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Mushroomguy12

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I don't consider that as a case of having some "heavy" ties. That feels way too loose at this point. We have zero Shin Megami Tensei stuff in Smash. It's pure Persona here. It's treated as separately as possible. So this feels like a stretch to me entirely. Yeah, I feel the ties are barely there.
Well, the same can be said for the first six FF games' complete lack of representation in Smash. For the three or so years before Cloud made his way to Switch, he was about in the same situation as Joker. Only tied by spin offs like Theatrhythm and Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories.


It's barely a tier below stuff like Halo(which already had a Nintendo cameo in some way via the Halo Mash-Up Pack. That's a Master Chief cameo to me, so I do treat him as he's had a type of appearance on a Nintendo console anyway). God of War is clearly different, but that's only because a Persona game was actually on Nintendo first. Doesn't mean I consider it as having a lot of ties either. That's why I said it was as untied as you can get, because he's the character in Smash least tied to Nintendo right now, with barely a game in his name(where his own series appeared once). Though yeah, you already get what I mean by how Halo and God of War are different tiers before I even said this. But anyway.

I don't treat spin-offs as hefty ties whatsoever. I treat them as their own thing, with slight ties due to the game they're spun-off from. So again, it's more "as untied as you can get" means very little. There's still ties, but it's not much at all. If we didn't have the Persona game but still Joker in, I'd say "barely has a tie due to the SMT part". There's a fairly small difference in how big the ties are with the Persona game kept in mind.
Well, yes, Halo had the cameo thing, but having full games like Persona Q and Q2 still puts Persona a tier above Halo in my book. A spin off is still a game, and a game is still higher than a cameo, especially a direct spin off and not just an appearance in someone else's series. If a Halo Switch spinoff game ever comes out, then I'll concede it to be on the same tier as Persona. Obviously both are miles above GOW.
 
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TheCJBrine

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I'm not sure if Nintendo relevancy matters as much as some say.

Sakurai still takes it into mind but has mentioned it as being a courtesy and doesn't seem to take it as a hard rule, only saying "I may have had misgivings if he had never appeared on a Nintendo console" when talking about Cloud, but that also seems to imply he still may have chosen Cloud. He didn't bring up Final Fantasy's past Nintendo releases at all.
 
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3BitSaurus

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I'm not sure if Nintendo relevancy matters as much as some say.

Sakurai still takes it into mind but has mentioned it as being a courtesy and doesn't seem to take it as a hard rule, only saying "I may have had misgivings if he had never appeared on a Nintendo console" when talking about Cloud, but that also seems to imply he still may have chosen Cloud. He didn't bring up Final Fantasy's past Nintendo releases at all.
If memory serves, he went straight for Cloud when negotiating with Square. He usually goes right for the characters he wants when talking to third parties. Had he wanted Chief instead of Banjo, I certainly don't think Microsoft would have said no.

If anyone has problems with that sort of thing, it would be Nintendo, since they made the possible DLC list beforehand and gave it for Sakurai to pick some. Even so, they're much more lax compared to other times, so I kinda doubt it.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Well, the same can be said for the first six FF games' complete lack of representation in Smash. For the three or so years before Cloud made his way to Switch, he was about in the same situation as Joker. Only tied by spin offs like Theatrhythm and Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories.
Final Fantasy is a franchise that has its own spin-offs, but they are stil treated fully as FF games.

How is Persona treated as a SMT set of games? Please elaborate the ties between them. I never had a chance to play either of the series.

Well, yes, Halo had the cameo thing, but having full games like Persona Q and Q2 still puts Persona a tier above Halo in my book. A spin off is still a game, and a game is still higher than a cameo, especially a direct spin off and not just an appearance in someone else's series. If a Halo Switch spinoff game ever comes out, then I'll concede it to be on the same tier as Persona. Obviously both are miles above GOW.
That's pretty much overall what I'm saying. There's a clear difference. I put Cloud a huge tier above Joker, since his series is full-out tied to Nintendo far more heavily. Cloud's game not being on there would only matter if only spin-offs were on Nintendo, but a huge chunk of the core games were on there. What was it, we got to FF14 and then Cloud got in Smash? However, other core games past 7 were still on Nintendo, so the series is pretty tied to it. Cloud doesn't need to appear in a Spin-Off or a Core FF game to make a difference in the fact he did appear on a Nintendo system, though small appearances.

That said, this is clearly far off from the overall topic and I'm pretty sure I derailed it, so apologies about that.
 

EarlTamm

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A little late on the ball compared to everyone else, but I am putting my scores

Shantae
Chance: 30%
I don't think spirits disconfirm and I see her as the most likely indie when it comes to what she has accomplished, but the choices made so far don't have me the most confident that she will get in(Besides them all being third parties).
Want: 100%
One of my most wanted and is pretty much sharing top spot with Geno for me.

Layton
Chance: Abstain
I don't know the situation surrounding him, so I don't feel I can judge.
Want: 50%
That being said, he seems like a cool puzzle rep with some gentlemen flair, so I am certainly not against him or anything. Would need to play his games in order to want him majorly though.
 

GoodGrief741

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I know you're kinda anti Rayman but he's definitely not less iconic than shantae dude. Not even being anti shantae but he's definitely bigger than her
Yeah, you're right. Shantae's bigger in Japan, but I realize that doesn't necessarily translate into more iconic.
How many more days do we have before the next top 7 are taken?
Ideally we're six real life days away. The top seven will be locked after Crash & Spyro's day ends.

Verde Coeden Scalesworth Verde Coeden Scalesworth SMT and Persona are virtually the same series. They use the same monsters, very similar combat systems, and with Persona 5 they also cribbed SMT's defining interaction mechanic. The difference is Persona has social simulation elements and has different themes.

With how Atlus treats them (aside from overmarketing P5 because it became their cash cow), I'd say they're treated with the same respect and similar budgets, with SMT being their Nintendo series and Persona being their PlayStation series. I think an apt comparison would be with From Soft's titles, as in the Dark Souls games and their other games (Demon's Souls, Bloodborne, Sekiro, Elden Ring). While they're not spun-off off each other, that's more or less the best example I can think of the series' ties.

Scratch that, the best example is the Forza games. You have Horizon and Motorsport, they have different directions, but they're very much the same series and treated equally.
 
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