• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

What will you like to discuss next?

  • Jabs

    Votes: 29 72.5%
  • Grabs

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Continue with Specials

    Votes: 8 20.0%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .

Bigbomb2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
164
Location
PA
NNID
Bigbomb2
Link dtilt - would be an excellent tilt except it comes out on frame 11. Unless they are hit by the tip of the sword and then DI away, it almost always will combo into a Fair at lower percents (if all hits connect it does 34%) and upair at medium to high percents. Probably a high C or lower B
Bowser dtilt - High damage, fairly safe on shield, can KO reliably. Can be used in all sorts of ways. Definite B tilt
Ike dtilt - Fast at frame 7, fairly safe on shield if spaced well, reliably combos into Nair or Fair. Is the faster but weaker version of Link's tilt. A solid B
 

TheHypnotoad

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
615
Robin's dtilt is mediocre, as with all of his tilts. It's fast, but has very little reach. That's really all there is to say about it. Probably C tier.

Rosalina's dtilt is excellent. It's fast, but more importantly, has insanely good range, making it a fantastic poke. Luma can make the range even better. And Rosalina has a crawl, which means it's easier to space the dtilt, although I don't know if this is relevant. A tier, B tier at worst.

Cloud's dtilt is godlike. It's fast, difficult to punish for characters with subpar OoS options due to Cloud moving during the attack, and combos into pretty much any one of his aerials within a very large percent window. Most likely S tier. EDIT: Actually, I change my mind. Probably A tier.

Mewtwo's dtilt is ****ing borked. If there were an S+ tier I would throw it in there without hesitation, that's how good it is. Someone above me already explained it, but there is absolutely no argument for putting this move anywhere but in S tier.
 
Last edited:

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
Since Diddy's dtilt will inevitably be S, I'd nominate Kirby's for the same tier or in A.

The main difference between the moves is this - Diddy has a kit that takes better advantage of it. In a vacuum? Kirby's has a little less range, but... has a 30-35% trip chance, one more active frame than Diddy's, one extra frame of endlag, and resets Kirby's profile to it's lowest state (you know, where he can duck KO punch and True Shoryuken).

But of course, it's about two frames less safe on shield. So potentially S, probably A.
 

arbustopachon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2016
Messages
282
Location
Uruguay
https://gfycat.com/DamagedCoarseEyas

Zard's d-tilt is a great poke, it has amazing range, deals 10% of damage, sends the opponents at a low angle, has great bkb and is rather safe on shield when spaced properly. Sadly the move does not kill untill very high percents and is not disjointed. It can be used effectivdely to edgeguard tho.

The move hits on frames 9 and 10, the faf is on frame 31. The move also has a windbox from frames 7-8 which helps the move to conect properly. Sadly the windbox also causes stupidly jank stuff when Zard gets grabbed during the move, like sending both zard and the opponent sliding for like half FD. This stupid jank might sometimes save your life and sometimes kill you.

So yeah, zard's d-tilt is a good long range poke. Nothing more nothing less.
 
Last edited:

MarioMeteor

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
8,340
Location
New Orleans
NNID
BGenius23
3DS FC
0662-2900-1492
Falco's down tilt is a very versatile move and is probably one of his best, due to its high KO power when sweetspotted and high combo potential when sourspotted. The only thing that holds this move back is its subpar range. It should be in either A tier or B tier.
 

Seraphim.

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
695
Location
San Diego, CA
NNID
Seraphim35
Roy's Dtilt is good, being one of his best options for his Neutral/Ledge trap game. The move hits on frame 7, safe on shield and does 11% damage (6.5% for the sourspot). Dtilt also sends opponents at a low angle which setups tech chase situations at mid and higher percents. PP Dtilt is also really good with Roy.

Dtilt itself combos into DED/Dash attack at low and mid percents, Dtilt > Dash attack is also a decent kill setup if you get the untechable reel animation.

Roy's Dtilt may have lost most of it's combo ability from Melee but it's still a pretty good move.
 

LRodC

Smashing With Mewtwo and Cloud
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
818
Location
Philadelphia, PA
NNID
LightningrodC
3DS FC
1461-6200-7452
Cloud's dtilt is godlike. It's fast, difficult to punish for characters with subpar OoS options due to Cloud moving during the attack, and combos into pretty much any one of his aerials within a very large percent window. Most likely S tier.
While it's a good down tilt, I don't think it's S tier worthy. It's too punishable for that, and it only combos into stuff at later % if the late hit connects. It is useful, however, and it can also 2 frame. I think it's A tier. I can think of a handful of down tilts that I think are better.

I think Mewtwo, Bayonetta, Little Mac, Diddy, and DK are S tier worthy.

Speaking of Little Mac, his down tilt is flat out one of the best moves in the game. It would be busted on any character with good aerials. Belongs in S without a doubt.
 
Last edited:

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
:4falco: Either low A or high B it's a very nice move. Fairly quick, has decent range, can be used as a combo starter a effective mix up if you can drag airborne opponents down to the stage with Nair. It kills and its a good move to shield poke high up shields.
 

Lavani

Indigo Destiny
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
7,256
S: :4diddy::4mewtwo:
S~A::4bayonetta2:
A: :4metaknight::4ryu::4littlemac:
D: :4palutena:

Dunno if there are any dtilts that justify another tier below D, but move Palutena's down if there are.
 
Last edited:

TheColorfulOrca

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
78
Location
Purgatorio
:4bayonetta2:- Definitely S Tier. Her fastest tilt (tied with UTilt), and sets up an absurd number of combos. A very important part of her kit (even after the slight nerf).

:4peach:- While it has a bit of start-up, it has a ton of hitstun, and combos at all percents. It's even a kill confirm at high enough percents (DTilt > Parasol). Unfortunately, it can be teched, but it's still a pretty good DTilt. Around B Tier.

:4ganondorf:- One of his fastest moves, with a lot of range to boot. Can kill at high enough percents. One of his better grounded moves, probably B Tier.

:4corrinf:- Similar to Bayo's, it's pretty fast and starts a large amount of combos. Arguably his most useful tilt, A Tier.

:4samus:- Starts surprisingly quickly, and deals quite a bit of damage. A staple move for Samus, around B Tier.
 

Mr Puddles

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
19
NNID
Empulsion777
Bowser Jr's dtilt is an awesome quick move. It catches people off guard since it comes out quite fast. It's good if you whiff a fsmash, you can immediately dtilt. Or on the landing of a kart dash cancel. It has a bit of landing lag though so I'm going to say it's B rank.
 

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
Ike's Dtilt: Pretty good. Frame 7, solid 8% damage, combos into Nair, Fair, and Bair. Fairly safe when spaced properly. All disjoint. Ike's second fastest move overall after Jab, same start up as Bair but able to act after it sooner. As pointed out before its a faster, weaker version of Link's with more combing out of it while Link's has the situational meteor in it: 8% vs 11%, Frame 7 vs Frame 11. Exact same FAF.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
926
Zelda Dtilt isnt bad at all.
Frame 5, comboes into many things at various percents, depending on opponent DI can lead to a Fair or Uair or reverse Bair, great for catching the 2 frame window and it shifts her but this surprisingly low.

One problem is the fact that fast fallers at extremely low percents can shield after the first hit, but it's good at many things.
I'd say it fits well in A
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
5,921
Location
California
Samus' Down Tilt

Pros
  • Only 6 frames! That's faster than the rest of Samus' tilts.
  • 12% damage. It's reasonable, as Super Missiles produce 10% damage.
  • The hit box covers from the lower portion of Samus' pauldron (shoulder pad) to at least another crouching Samus. In other words, good range.
  • Bomb to d-tilt allows for extra safety as the Bomb animation can be manipulated with IASA frames.
  • Angle is 80°. D-throw is also 80° and dash attacks launch opponents up at 75°, which means Samus could go for an u-air.
  • Useful for hitting opponents at the edge based on the 2 frames.

Cons
  • You're better off using jab1 and jab2, since that's faster than jab1 to d-tilt.
I'd say A tier at least until I can see something better.

Mewtwo's down tilt for S tier. It comes out frame 6 with excellent range, it is a main combo starter and spacing tool, and it is a large part of the character's playstyle.
If you think that, then I think Samus' d-tilt should be in S tier for pretty much the same results. Samus' d-tilt in terms of damage beats Mewtwo's by 240%. Mewtwo's FAF is better, however.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
D-tilt is basically the inverse of f-tilt in terms of quality among the cast.

There are ALOT of good d-tilts. Ryu has two that are both amazing and honestly neither one of them is S tier.

That should tell you how broken some of the d-tilts are in this game.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
:4gaw: only deals 6 % damage on exclusively grounded targets with a low launch angle but far too much endlag for potential tech chase followups. Only notable for some KO power, killing at about the same range that an Ftilt could - 120% with Mario pushed to a ledge. That's the second strongest Dtilt for killing outright. Jab is the superior attack in terms of frame data and followups. The windbox is the most interesting aspect. It can work as a deterrent against some projectiles like Pacman's bonus fruit and Pikmin Throw, and it can disrupt bad recoveries. The video definitely overstates the usefulness of it but I needed some visual examples of it in action. The only issue I have with the windbox is that it doesn't reach as far below the stage as you might hope. So good ledge snap windows or "magnet hands" generally have nothing to fear. As far as I know, hitting the 2 frame ledge snap window only sustains 1% damage to the victim as they grab the ledge. and the ground target only hitbox won't hit ledge hangers because they're considered "airborne". I would rank this above bottom tier for sure, but not far above. Killing and gimping are not common applications for a Dtilt, but the move fails to work for anything else and is much less safe to throw out than other ground moves like jab or even his dash attack.

:4bowser: Frame 10 move with comparable KO power to some of the weaker smashes in the game. 95% at the ledge, which is only reasonably rivaled by Ganon who needs closer to 125 but kills vertically. Doesn't followup into anything but 14% damage on the first swing is already comparable to some Dtilts that deal 7 then another 7 damage from an air followup at specific ranges. Plus there's a whole second swing. Dtilt 1 to Dtilt 2 is a true blockstring of 25% damage which either breaks a shield or makes people panic. And landing Dtilt at 0-20% can allow both swings to hit for that same amount, with some trip chance for an added 30% grab combo. The first swing can also reach as low as down angled Ftilt below the stage to catch 2 frame ledge snaps. But it's worse at this because 2 less active frames and more endlag allowing them to buffer ledge jump and escape fortress. But if you do manage to land this as an edgeguard, it's fantastic. Great reward on hit or block and the second swing beats dodges to boot.

:4dedede:His fastest move in terms of startup and the endlag is not bad. Basically the same as one of the good dash attacks in the game that doesn't require running and can be buffered (unlike dash options). Useful for getting people back on their side of the stage so he can set up more gordos. Definitely not bottom tier.

:4miigun:8 frame 14% damage vertical kill move that only requires about 10% more than Ganon to kill. Would put on the same tier or a tier above Samus for more reward on hit. Both moves can hit low ledge hangers/2 frame ledge snaps. Gunner's is held back by a short range hitbox for use onstage. Competes directly with Dsmash in startup, damage, and KO power, but Dsmash often fails to link into its second hit while also whiffing at point blank (seriously, it's bad).


:4littlemac:My personal favorite move of his. Such a safe, long range poke that many opponents simply have no guaranteed OoS options to deal with repeated Dtilt besides dodge roll or jump to get away from him. Can't kill on it's own but will link into KO punch or rising uppercut.

D: :4palutena:

Dunno if there are any dtilts that justify another tier below D, but move Palutena's down if there are.
I would actually rate:4wiifit: as the worst. At least Palutena has 11 active frames for idiots to run into. Plus it's got low endlag compared to the rest of her grounded moveset. If Palutena's could hit below the ledge it would be baller for ledge guarding. WFT's is slow, the hitbox is unacceptable, and it doesn't lead into anything. She wants attacks that push people out like Ftilt, rather than knock them into the air where she's more vulnerable to attack.

Edit: Also forgot :4villager: whose can kill better than :4miigun: but not:4ganondorf:
 
Last edited:

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Samus' Down Tilt

Pros
  • Only 6 frames! That's faster than the rest of Samus' tilts.
  • 12% damage. It's reasonable, as Super Missiles produce 10% damage.
  • The hit box covers from the lower portion of Samus' pauldron (shoulder pad) to at least another crouching Samus. In other words, good range.
  • Bomb to d-tilt allows for extra safety as the Bomb animation can be manipulated with IASA frames.
  • Angle is 80°. D-throw is also 80° and dash attacks launch opponents up at 75°, which means Samus could go for an u-air.
  • Useful for hitting opponents at the edge based on the 2 frames.

Cons
  • You're better off using jab1 and jab2, since that's faster than jab1 to d-tilt.
I'd say A tier at least until I can see something better.



If you think that, then I think Samus' d-tilt should be in S tier for pretty much the same results. Samus' d-tilt in terms of damage beats Mewtwo's by 240%. Mewtwo's FAF is better, however.
Samus Dtilt is -18 on block.

Nah fam. It's B tier at BEST.
 

ARGHETH

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
1,395
If you think that, then I think Samus' d-tilt should be in S tier for pretty much the same results. Samus' d-tilt in terms of damage beats Mewtwo's by 240%. Mewtwo's FAF is better, however.
Mewtwo's ends 19 frames faster though...that's kind of significant.
(Samus' Dtilt has a FAF of 40)
 
Last edited:

TheHypnotoad

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
615
If you think that, then I think Samus' d-tilt should be in S tier for pretty much the same results. Samus' d-tilt in terms of damage beats Mewtwo's by 240%. Mewtwo's FAF is better, however.
I don't think you understand quite how ridiculous Mewtwo's dtilt is. Mewtwo's dtilt combos into freaking everything. You can do dtilt to fair, dtilt to nair, dtilt to uair, I've even seen someone combo dtilt into running up smash. It's one of the best combo moves in the game. It combos at low percents to build damage, and it combos at high percents to kill with fair.

Samus's dtilt does not do any of these things.
 
Last edited:

FamilyTeam

This strength serves more than me alone.
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Messages
2,332
Location
South America
NNID
MontanaCity
Marth, Lucina and Roy's Down Tilt is very good. Very fast, okay damage, good to make people get off of you fast, good for spacing, sometimes I can even use the to extend a string or two. I wouldn't even know where to put them in relation to each other, though. Probably Marth's at first, Lucie's second and Roy's third?
 

Flamegeyser

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
248
S candidates:
Bayo for ridiculously damaging combo setups as well as kill confirms and safety when spaced.
Diddy for kill confirms, speed, range, and safety.
Mewtwo for obvious reasons.
Ryu for high comboability and 2 frame kill confirms,
Meta Knight for obvious reasons.
Little Mac for obvious reasons.
 

Geese

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 30, 2016
Messages
35
Location
Park City, Utah
MK's dtilt is very fast and is pretty good out of shield with a 25% chance to trip which will lead to a grab, and even without a trip it is still very easy to follow it with a grab, unless your opponent has a very fast ftilt or jab in which they can outspeed you. One major problem with it however being disjointed, if you are too close to an opponent it will miss then entirely, and even make you be on the other side of them.
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
Greninja down tilt is basically only for kill confirms. Down tilt fair, and Down tilt up smash specifically.

Down tilt is great on big bodied characters and fast fallers if you "perfect" pivot them:




(footage by PHaZeX3R0 )

The move has a small hit box and isn't really safe on shield though. It's worthy of a B+

:150:
 
Last edited:

Airpoizon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
91
NNID
(Private)
3DS FC
0946-2898-1267
, Probably Marth's at first, Lucie's second and Roy's third?
Eh, I'd put Roys above Lucina. Roys may have a tipper, but it does about 4% more than Lucinas sweet spotted, which is a pretty big difference if you compare the other moves. Also, Roys has an FAF of 22, while Lucina has an FAF of 24. Roys can also set up for tech chases easier by being overall faster and the fact that Roy has a better FAF frame. The only thing Lucina has better is that she doesn't have a sour spot.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
I would actually argue Marth's is the worst of the three. I'm having trouble picturing scenarios where you'd want his or lucina's Dtilt over Ftilt. The tipper range of the move is oppressively small as always, and unlike what Marth players mistakenly believe, you can't bury your sword into a target and expect a tipper, it's the lowest hitbox ID, which is why you don't often tip shields. Roy on the other hand has more than half of the move as a sweetspot rather than 15%. But it also doesn't reach quite as far. The reduced endlag does make it the safest on block, and with no hitbox ID issues to worry about. The 11% hit or the tipper hit should both leave the defender too far to shieldgrab allowing you to continue spamming the move until they roll or get pushed out of range. Marth and to a lesser extent Lucina would totally get shieldgrabbed if they were too close.

None of these are great moves as they lack proper KB scaling and a large hitbox arc, and I think I would rate them all on the same tier in the end. But my order from best to worst would be Roy, Lucina, Marth.
 

Guido65

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 30, 2015
Messages
144
:4miisword: down tilt should be A rank because:
  • It is very safe on shield(-1 on shield drop and -8 on oos). Spaced dtilt is incredibly hard to punish.
  • It is a combo starter and combos into grab at low %.
  • Also it has good range and disjoint.
  • Better then marcina and roys frame data wise(it is frame 5 with an faf of 20 vs frame 7 with an faf of 24 and an faf of 22).
  • Mii swordfighter's fastest attack at frame 5 and is his best poke.
 

LancerStaff

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
8,118
Location
Buried under 990+ weapons
3DS FC
1504-5709-4054
Pit's is alright. It's basically stuck between Corrin and Marth's... Great range like Marth's and comes out fast, but low damage and it's punishable like Corrin's. Problem is that it really doesn't combo into anything... I'm saying B tier.
 

TheGoodGuava

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
744
Location
At Home
I nominate Marth for A/S tier. -1 on shield drop, -8 oos, range makes it nearly unpunishable, sourspot combos into fsmash/grab at lower %s, great for catching 2 frames and leading into edgeguards, the only thing it doesn't do is kill and anti air. Lucinas is only 1 frame less safe on shield and does everything but combo.

Something I noticed nobody mention is the combo potential of the reverse hit of Marcina's up tilt. Marth can notably get 20+ off of it and kill confirm into tipper bair. Marth's also has great kill potential for an up tilt rivaling some up smashes when tippered, the only issue is its annoying as hell to space unlike his ftilt
 

BunbUn129

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
614
Location
Abu Dhabi, UAE
Meta Knight's d tilt is a very good move and like in Brawl is an important component of his ground game. It's safe on block at max spacing, and when shielded he can follow-up with a dash attack/grab mix-up depending on the opponent's reaction. Or he can d tilt again if they attempt to punish. For a character who has few low-committal neutral options, being able to just press a button is nice.

As good as it's frame data is, I don't think it should make the cut for S-tier. The move has poor range (shorter than Galaxia even though it's already shrunk down during the move), and is unsafe on hit at lower percentages if it doesn't trip. It also lacks consistency due to its trip chance; a lot of good d tilts have something that makes them a bit inconsistent, eg. Sheik's d tilt hitboxes having noticeably different launch angles, Mewtwo's sour d tilt having worse combo potential than the stronger hit, etc., but unlike MK's d tilt the inconsistencies are a result of different hitboxes and not a random mechanic.

I'd put MK's d tilt in A-tier.
 
Last edited:

Funbot28

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
209
NNID
AlwaysDOMINATE
Ok so here is the initial list for Down-Tilt:


Discuss!
 

BunbUn129

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
614
Location
Abu Dhabi, UAE
I think Ike and DK should be moved from C up to B.

Ike's d tilt has decently fast start-up at frame 8, does 8% which is pretty good for its speed, has ~20 frames of ending lag, and is disjointed. It also sends at the same angle and KB all throughout making it more consistent for combos than, say, Sheik's, MK's, Kirby's, Falco's, etc that are held back by trip chances, varied launch angles, or sourspots. Ike's d tilt is a solid spacing option as it's safe on shield and gives him good reward until mid-percents. Major drawback is that it sends too high up for follow-ups past mid-percents while not being strong enough to KO well, while Sheik for example can set-up other moves with her d tilt as late as ~130%.

DK's d tilt is frame 7, has intangibility for the first 9 frames, with a very good FAF of 23. It's safe on block, is a strong option for footsies as it beats out a lot of things, and can potentially set-up into other moves. While it's better than Ike's d tilt as a neutral option, it's less consistent because of it's trip chance, which is probably the only major drawback the move has. It could possibly be as good as the A-tier d tilts.

Edit: also I think Samus should be moved down to C-tier. Her d tilt has good start-up at frame 6 and deals a very nice 12% damage; however its high ending lag makes it unsafe and combined with its 80 BKB prevents follow-ups. It also doesn't KO well either because of its low 48 growth. Overall it lacks the safety of other d tilts in her tier (eg. Marth, Lucina) and reward (eg. Falco, Ganon), and even in comparison to ones ranked below her like Ike and DK.
 
Last edited:

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
I'd move :4ness:up a bit, it's not worthless. If you get the trip it will true combo into Fsmash for a deadly combination and kill confirm as Ness' Fsmash is very strong
 

Routa

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
1,208
Location
Loimaa, Finland
Well it seems like I missed the F-tilt discussion. Anyways about the Miimes.

Swordspider's D-tilt is his best grounded move. Comes out on frame 5 and faf is 20. Deals solid 8% and can be followed up by Nair/Fair depending from the %s. D-tilt is a excellent follow up after a Jab1 and "ACed" Fair. It is relatively safe (don't know exact numbers) and thanks to its combo potential I would say it is A tier material.

Brawler's D-tilt is pretty much Mario's D-tilt, but with a bit better combo potential. It sends foes upwards which is ideal for a Brawler. Why? Ever heard of PP or Helikick? At lower % he can follow up with Uair and Fair, but later it cannot be followed up with any move, but you can try to catch landing with your powerful Up-b (if chosen). I would personally put it on the same tier as Mario's.

I'm not super into Gunner, but it is pretty much Samus' D-tilt. Like other have said... Put it in the same tier as Samus'.
 

Guido65

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 30, 2015
Messages
144
Well it seems like I missed the F-tilt discussion. Anyways about the Miimes.

Swordspider's D-tilt is his best grounded move. Comes out on frame 5 and faf is 20. Deals solid 8% and can be followed up by Nair/Fair depending from the %s. D-tilt is a excellent follow up after a Jab1 and "ACed" Fair. It is relatively safe (don't know exact numbers) and thanks to its combo potential I would say it is A tier material.
Mii swordsmen down tilt is -1 on drop and -8 on oos.
 

TheColorfulOrca

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
78
Location
Purgatorio
Any reason why Shulk is so low? His DTilt is a useful poke, and better than the other DTilts in D Tier. I say move him up.

C. Falcon's DTilt is good at high percents, since it sends the opponent at a very awkward angle to recover from. It has a bit of utility, so maybe move it up.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Falco's down tilt is a very versatile move and is probably one of his best, due to its high KO power when sweetspotted and high combo potential when sourspotted. The only thing that holds this move back is its subpar range. It should be in either A tier or B tier.
Late reply, Falco's Dtilt doesn't have subpar range. It's noticeably disjointed after his tail's tip. Falco's Dtilt has about the same or even slightly more range than his Ftilt which itself has good range for a melee move.

First, to clarify some things, Falco's Dtilt is both a disjoint and is disjointed. Since he uses his tail to slash people, the move itself is a disjoint as his tail isn't considered a hitbox; it's basically like Ike's Dtilt or any of Ike's moves where he uses Ragnell. At the same time, it's disjointed from the tail's tip. Where his tail ends and where the attack trail is shown is not its maximum range. Its real range, is about a third more than what is shown. Inversely, Fox's Dtilt's range isn't where his tail tip is or the attack trail, but before it. Fox's Dtilt is a disjoint, but not disjointed. Basically, the game lies to you about Falco and Fox's Dtilt range. Much worse on Falco since you can't even see the hitbox and bad, but not as bad for Fox since while he's missing range, it's not a massive blind-spot since it's only his tail tip, the white furred part of his tail.

With the way it's used, his Dtilt is pretty much the whiff punish sweep you'd find in games like The King of Fighters or Street Fighter where it has good range, sneaks under hitboxes since it hits low not mid or high -- it's a Dtilt after all --, and hits hard. Other characters have Dtilt's like this, but they're usually not used like this for whatever reason. Anyway, compared to his Ftilt, it's just as fast -- only 1 frame slower --, has just as low of a recovery -- 19 to Ftilt's 20 --, has the same active frames, 3, and has similar range. Its edge over Ftilt is that it's safe on-hit wherever you hit whether it's the 9% or 11% sour-spots or the 12% sweet-spot and at 0%; Ftilt isn't safe on-hit until 40% on Mario. Ftilt's edge is pretty obvious; as Dtilt is a low-hitting move, it's locked to only hitting people on or near the ground while Ftilt can hit mid and kind of high normally and being angle-able, can hit high and low. Functionally, they both poke, however, Ftilt's strictly for poking while Dtilt's vertical angle allows it to set up. As people have said, his Dtilt is versatile functioning as a poke, punish, and set-up.

Falco's Dtilt is arguably his best tilt and some of them are for the wrong reasons. One of them I already pointed out: the disjoint. It's not a small disjoint like on Marth's tippers or something, but a noticeably invisible area where he hits you despite you believing you're not in range. That's just unfair and Falco's got another one with Fair's landing hit which itself shouldn't have existed because the landing animation having a hitbox makes no sense. That's another story for another day. Now, the move being a disjoint itself means its difficult to challenge with the disjoint making it even more difficult since there's extra, invisible range. With the disjoint, Falco's Dtilt has about as much range as a sword user's while other characters like Bayonetta, Diddy, Greninja, Mario, and ZSS have shorter, more "melee" range. Granted, I do think Dtilts should have more range, so people can use them like a sweep, but not the extent of Falco's rivaling a sword user's. Otherwise, if they're short-ranged, then give them something like Diddy or Wario's where it's a fast or low recovery poke like a crouching light kick e.g. Ryu's light Dtilt which is his cr.LK from Street Fighter. Anyway, I digress.

The other reason: it's functioning more like what Fox's Dtilt used to be. This part I blame on Brawl's change to Falco's Dtilt where they added a 9% sour-spot to its tip and significantly lowered its knockback not adjusting its knockback to work with Brawl making it so gravity affected vertical knockback so that vertical KO moves didn't have to have ridiculously high knockback to KO. Dtilt went from having 13% hitboxes covering his entire tail to 12% about 2 thirds of it and a 9% sour-spot tip and it went from having 125 growth to work with Melee not factoring gravity for vertical knockback to a drop to 90 growth in Brawl with the base not changing at all -- stayed 25 in Brawl. Keep in mind that Falco's Dtilt during Melee and Brawl had shorter range than Fox's whose tail is not only longer, but stretches more than Falco's, especially in Brawl. What once was a short-ranged, but powerful and versatile Dtilt that KO'd ~100% became a short-ranged and weak Dtilt that KO'd at ~170% sweet-spotted. It was still versatile as Falco could set up with it, but with the changes to hit stun and hit stun canceling, it wasn't as useful. Although Smash 4 made it stronger by adding more base knockback with the sweet-spot having 50 and the sour-spots having 35, it did decrease the growth on the sour-spots by 2 to 88. In adding another sour-spot, the 11% hitbox on his tail, it still had the problem where it's weak; 11% hitbox KO's at ~176% and the 9% KO's at ~206%. Dtilt only KO's if Falco's right next you since the sweet-spot is on the base of his tail, but it's not really that strong, KO's at 136%, considering that you have to be that close. The 3 different hitboxes makes it inconsistent if you're looking to do one thing. Yes, each of them can set up, but in the times where Falco punishes someone with it, people are popped up high, and nothing happens because he wasn't right next to them. In contrast, Melee's Dtilt which having lower base and being in a different environment, it could set up and KO consistently. It was never a you hit with Dtilt and question if you hit with the 11% or the 9% hitbox hoping for that high percent KO to close out a stock or a need to get so close to KO an opponent when a safer option like a spaced Bair would have worked. Right now, it's this weird hybrid of Melee Falco's Dtilt -- only the sweet-spot -- and Melee Fox's Dtilt -- the range and the weaker hit.

Regardless, Falco's Dtilt is a good move, but it just doesn't seem "Falco enough". With it being a disjoint, its range and disjoint, and versatility, Falco's Dtilt is a good move, however, what hurts it is that by having 3 different hitboxes with the sweet-spot being the smallest and located near Falco's body, it is inconsistent, especially if you're aiming for a Dtilt that sets up at low to even high percents and KOs well. In a way, you could argue because of the different hitboxes, it has very short-range, shorter than Roy's sweet-spots, if you're aiming to KO, but average to good range with its 11% hitbox and 9% disjoint. Because of that, I don't think it should be higher than B as despite its versatility and range, there are better whiff punishing and/or setting up like Captain Falcon, DK, Ganondorf, Ike, Lucina, Marth, Mewtwo, Ryu, Samus, or Shulk's. Of the characters I listed, most of them have more consistency like Captain Falcon whiff punishing you with his Dtilt will always do 10% and send you at a horrible, shallow angle. Only problem with Capt.'s is that it's slower and not a disjoint or disjointed.

Links: Brawl Falco frame data: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitFalco.php.
Melee Falco frame data: http://dx.smashbr0s.com/chara/cters/falco/.

From the listed posted, Fox and Luigi should go down, especially Luigi. First off, I'm not a Fox or Luigi expert, so I won't be entirely knowledgeable on them. Luigi's Dtilt is this weird, very short-ranged -- I think it has the shortest range of all Dtilts -- Dtilt that doesn't seem to do anything. It used to have a high, vertical hit angle that Luigi could use to follow up with aerials, but 1.1.0 changed it to a 361 angle making it more horizontal and made it easier to trip with since he isn't popping people up, however, it can't set up as well... I remember someone saying the angle change was a nerf. Either way, Luigi's Dtilt remains situational. It's pretty much this weird move that exists to be weird because Luigi was made to be weird. At the same time, this makes it pretty much a joke move. Luigi's Dtilt could probably end up as a D- or F-tier Dtilt.

Fox's Dtilt as said before, has a range issue where the hitbox doesn't match the animation or the attack trail. From a test I did a while ago using Mushroomy Kingdom's blocks to measure range, Fox's Dtilt has less range than Falco's and has slightly more range than Falco's without the disjoint. So, each block is made up of 3 smaller blocks which I will call units. Fox's Dtilt clocks at 4 units from his front foot while crouching and 6 units from his knee while crouching; Falco's clocks at 5 from his front foot while crouching and 7 units from his knee while crouching. 2 of those units are disjointed. Part of this has to do with the new animation on Falco's Dtilt in Smash 4. In previous games, he shared Fox's who just spins in place whipping his tail around. In Smash 4, Falco steps forward while crouching and whips his tail forward.

Another problem is carried over from Brawl. In Melee, Fox's Dtilt had more vertical angles hitting 70 degrees up close, 80 in the middle, and 90 at the tip. It also did 10% and like most vertical moves in Melee, had high growth, 125 in this case. In Brawl, the growth was dropped to a reasonable 100, but they also pulled something like what happened to Falco's: giving it multiple sour-spots. Up close, it would do 9%, in the middle, 8%, and at the tip, 7%. The 2 9% hitboxes were given lower angles at 45 and 65 degrees. Smash 4's the same except they further reduced the damage so that it does 8% up close, 7% middle, and 6% at the tip. So, you have this weird series of hitboxes that makes it inconsistent where in Fox's case, you kind of don't know where exactly your opponent will be unless you hit them further out which you kind of would always try to, but if you happen to hit up close, then your opponent could end up flying up or flying out. What doesn't help is that there are 4 different hitboxes. Not damage different, but angle, "does something different" hitboxes. It doesn't even have a ton of range like if Corrin's Side Smash had 4 different hitboxes evenly spread out, sure, fine, but on Fox's tail which while stretched out having 4 different hitboxes? Why?

Fox's Dtilt is usable. You can pretty much use it in the same way as Falco's or any other Dtilt to sweep and punish people. It's just that it's not rewarding and Fox has much stronger whiff punishes like Up Smash. If Fox's Dtilt reliably set up a 50/50 with his Uair and Bair, then it would be much better. If it set up like Falco, Greninja, Ike, or Little Mac's Dtilt, then it would also be much better. Or even if it being true to a (tail) sweep and had a high tripping rate, like 50%, then it would also be much better except that's not the case. It is still a disjoint, it's still fast... it has the same frame data as Falco's in terms of startup, active, and recovery, but it's covered in convoluted hitboxes when a uniform or not as crazy, 4 different hit angles, would have been much better and it has a slight range issue. At best and at worst, it's C-tier.

Links: Brawl Fox frame data: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitFox.php.
Melee Fox frame data: http://dx.smashbr0s.com/chara/cters/fox/.

Anyway, some other stuff. Ness and Ryu are the only characters with Dtilts that can be repeated. I don't mean like low recovery, I can continuously Dtilt like Diddy or DK's Dtilts, but there's a property? that makes it so Ness and Ryu have lower recovery if they choose to Dtilt again. For Ness, Dtilting again has 5 total frames instead of 13, so the recovery drops from 10 frames to 2 frames. For Ryu, light Dtilting again only has 6 total frames instead of 14, so its recovery drops from 12 to 4. A similar thing exists for jabs where if you hold down attack, some characters will repeatedly jab in place like Capt., (Dr.) Mario, and Fox while others like Cloud and Lucas apparently have lower recovery if they choose to jab 2 to jab 1. Also, Ryu's light Utilt has this property as well. Anyway, keeping that in mind, Ness's Dtilt while not having a lot of range or power, has a lot of speed. It's really a cr.LK like in a traditional 2D fighting game. At worst, probably a C-tier Dtilt and not a D-tier Dtilt.

Links: Ness's frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...9tivelrRJvPl7o1dBhgYo/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0.
Ryu's frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...GinKOYVI3RnpS43ERGvJM/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0.

Also, isn't Jigglypuff's Dtilt basically a slower, but stronger Kirby Dtilt? Part of me wants to vouch for Jiggles and PAC-MAN's Dtilt, but I can't explain why.
 
Last edited:

MarioMeteor

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
8,340
Location
New Orleans
NNID
BGenius23
3DS FC
0662-2900-1492
Late reply, Falco's Dtilt doesn't have subpar range. It's noticeably disjointed after his tail's tip. Falco's Dtilt has about the same or even slightly more range than his Ftilt which itself has good range for a melee move.

First, to clarify some things, Falco's Dtilt is both a disjoint and is disjointed. Since he uses his tail to slash people, the move itself is a disjoint as his tail isn't considered a hitbox; it's basically like Ike's Dtilt or any of Ike's moves where he uses Ragnell. At the same time, it's disjointed from the tail's tip. Where his tail ends and where the attack trail is shown is not its maximum range. Its real range, is about a third more than what is shown. Inversely, Fox's Dtilt's range isn't where his tail tip is or the attack trail, but before it. Fox's Dtilt is a disjoint, but not disjointed. Basically, the game lies to you about Falco and Fox's Dtilt range. Much worse on Falco since you can't even see the hitbox and bad, but not as bad for Fox since while he's missing range, it's not a massive blind-spot since it's only his tail tip, the white furred part of his tail.

With the way it's used, his Dtilt is pretty much the whiff punish sweep you'd find in games like The King of Fighters or Street Fighter where it has good range, sneaks under hitboxes since it hits low not mid or high -- it's a Dtilt after all --, and hits hard. Other characters have Dtilt's like this, but they're usually not used like this for whatever reason. Anyway, compared to his Ftilt, it's just as fast -- only 1 frame slower --, has just as low of a recovery -- 19 to Ftilt's 20 --, has the same active frames, 3, and has similar range. Its edge over Ftilt is that it's safe on-hit wherever you hit whether it's the 9% or 11% sour-spots or the 12% sweet-spot and at 0%; Ftilt isn't safe on-hit until 40% on Mario. Ftilt's edge is pretty obvious; as Dtilt is a low-hitting move, it's locked to only hitting people on or near the ground while Ftilt can hit mid and kind of high normally and being angle-able, can hit high and low. Functionally, they both poke, however, Ftilt's strictly for poking while Dtilt's vertical angle allows it to set up. As people have said, his Dtilt is versatile functioning as a poke, punish, and set-up.

Falco's Dtilt is arguably his best tilt and some of them are for the wrong reasons. One of them I already pointed out: the disjoint. It's not a small disjoint like on Marth's tippers or something, but a noticeably invisible area where he hits you despite you believing you're not in range. That's just unfair and Falco's got another one with Fair's landing hit which itself shouldn't have existed because the landing animation having a hitbox makes no sense. That's another story for another day. Now, the move being a disjoint itself means its difficult to challenge with the disjoint making it even more difficult since there's extra, invisible range. With the disjoint, Falco's Dtilt has about as much range as a sword user's while other characters like Bayonetta, Diddy, Greninja, Mario, and ZSS have shorter, more "melee" range. Granted, I do think Dtilts should have more range, so people can use them like a sweep, but not the extent of Falco's rivaling a sword user's. Otherwise, if they're short-ranged, then give them something like Diddy or Wario's where it's a fast or low recovery poke like a crouching light kick e.g. Ryu's light Dtilt which is his cr.LK from Street Fighter. Anyway, I digress.

The other reason: it's functioning more like what Fox's Dtilt used to be. This part I blame on Brawl's change to Falco's Dtilt where they added a 9% sour-spot to its tip and significantly lowered its knockback not adjusting its knockback to work with Brawl making it so gravity affected vertical knockback so that vertical KO moves didn't have to have ridiculously high knockback to KO. Dtilt went from having 13% hitboxes covering his entire tail to 12% about 2 thirds of it and a 9% sour-spot tip and it went from having 125 growth to work with Melee not factoring gravity for vertical knockback to a drop to 90 growth in Brawl with the base not changing at all -- stayed 25 in Brawl. Keep in mind that Falco's Dtilt during Melee and Brawl had shorter range than Fox's whose tail is not only longer, but stretches more than Falco's, especially in Brawl. What once was a short-ranged, but powerful and versatile Dtilt that KO'd ~100% became a short-ranged and weak Dtilt that KO'd at ~170% sweet-spotted. It was still versatile as Falco could set up with it, but with the changes to hit stun and hit stun canceling, it wasn't as useful. Although Smash 4 made it stronger by adding more base knockback with the sweet-spot having 50 and the sour-spots having 35, it did decrease the growth on the sour-spots by 2 to 88. In adding another sour-spot, the 11% hitbox on his tail, it still had the problem where it's weak; 11% hitbox KO's at ~176% and the 9% KO's at ~206%. Dtilt only KO's if Falco's right next you since the sweet-spot is on the base of his tail, but it's not really that strong, KO's at 136%, considering that you have to be that close. The 3 different hitboxes makes it inconsistent if you're looking to do one thing. Yes, each of them can set up, but in the times where Falco punishes someone with it, people are popped up high, and nothing happens because he wasn't right next to them. In contrast, Melee's Dtilt which having lower base and being in a different environment, it could set up and KO consistently. It was never a you hit with Dtilt and question if you hit with the 11% or the 9% hitbox hoping for that high percent KO to close out a stock or a need to get so close to KO an opponent when a safer option like a spaced Bair would have worked. Right now, it's this weird hybrid of Melee Falco's Dtilt -- only the sweet-spot -- and Melee Fox's Dtilt -- the range and the weaker hit.

Regardless, Falco's Dtilt is a good move, but it just doesn't seem "Falco enough". With it being a disjoint, its range and disjoint, and versatility, Falco's Dtilt is a good move, however, what hurts it is that by having 3 different hitboxes with the sweet-spot being the smallest and located near Falco's body, it is inconsistent, especially if you're aiming for a Dtilt that sets up at low to even high percents and KOs well. In a way, you could argue because of the different hitboxes, it has very short-range, shorter than Roy's sweet-spots, if you're aiming to KO, but average to good range with its 11% hitbox and 9% disjoint. Because of that, I don't think it should be higher than B as despite its versatility and range, there are better whiff punishing and/or setting up like Captain Falcon, DK, Ganondorf, Ike, Lucina, Marth, Mewtwo, Ryu, Samus, or Shulk's. Of the characters I listed, most of them have more consistency like Captain Falcon whiff punishing you with his Dtilt will always do 10% and send you at a horrible, shallow angle. Only problem with Capt.'s is that it's slower and not a disjoint or disjointed.

Links: Brawl Falco frame data: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitFalco.php.
Melee Falco frame data: http://dx.smashbr0s.com/chara/cters/falco/.

From the listed posted, Fox and Luigi should go down, especially Luigi. First off, I'm not a Fox or Luigi expert, so I won't be entirely knowledgeable on them. Luigi's Dtilt is this weird, very short-ranged -- I think it has the shortest range of all Dtilts -- Dtilt that doesn't seem to do anything. It used to have a high, vertical hit angle that Luigi could use to follow up with aerials, but 1.1.0 changed it to a 361 angle making it more horizontal and made it easier to trip with since he isn't popping people up, however, it can't set up as well... I remember someone saying the angle change was a nerf. Either way, Luigi's Dtilt remains situational. It's pretty much this weird move that exists to be weird because Luigi was made to be weird. At the same time, this makes it pretty much a joke move. Luigi's Dtilt could probably end up as a D- or F-tier Dtilt.

Fox's Dtilt as said before, has a range issue where the hitbox doesn't match the animation or the attack trail. From a test I did a while ago using Mushroomy Kingdom's blocks to measure range, Fox's Dtilt has less range than Falco's and has slightly more range than Falco's without the disjoint. So, each block is made up of 3 smaller blocks which I will call units. Fox's Dtilt clocks at 4 units from his front foot while crouching and 6 units from his knee while crouching; Falco's clocks at 5 from his front foot while crouching and 7 units from his knee while crouching. 2 of those units are disjointed. Part of this has to do with the new animation on Falco's Dtilt in Smash 4. In previous games, he shared Fox's who just spins in place whipping his tail around. In Smash 4, Falco steps forward while crouching and whips his tail forward.

Another problem is carried over from Brawl. In Melee, Fox's Dtilt had more vertical angles hitting 70 degrees up close, 80 in the middle, and 90 at the tip. It also did 10% and like most vertical moves in Melee, had high growth, 125 in this case. In Brawl, the growth was dropped to a reasonable 100, but they also pulled something like what happened to Falco's: giving it multiple sour-spots. Up close, it would do 9%, in the middle, 8%, and at the tip, 7%. The 2 9% hitboxes were given lower angles at 45 and 65 degrees. Smash 4's the same except they further reduced the damage so that it does 8% up close, 7% middle, and 6% at the tip. So, you have this weird series of hitboxes that makes it inconsistent where in Fox's case, you kind of don't know where exactly your opponent will be unless you hit them further out which you kind of would always try to, but if you happen to hit up close, then your opponent could end up flying up or flying out. What doesn't help is that there are 4 different hitboxes. Not damage different, but angle, "does something different" hitboxes. It doesn't even have a ton of range like if Corrin's Side Smash had 4 different hitboxes evenly spread out, sure, fine, but on Fox's tail which while stretched out having 4 different hitboxes? Why?

Fox's Dtilt is usable. You can pretty much use it in the same way as Falco's or any other Dtilt to sweep and punish people. It's just that it's not rewarding and Fox has much stronger whiff punishes like Up Smash. If Fox's Dtilt reliably set up a 50/50 with his Uair and Bair, then it would be much better. If it set up like Falco, Greninja, Ike, or Little Mac's Dtilt, then it would also be much better. Or even if it being true to a (tail) sweep and had a high tripping rate, like 50%, then it would also be much better except that's not the case. It is still a disjoint, it's still fast... it has the same frame data as Falco's in terms of startup, active, and recovery, but it's covered in convoluted hitboxes when a uniform or not as crazy, 4 different hit angles, would have been much better and it has a slight range issue. At best and at worst, it's C-tier.

Links: Brawl Fox frame data: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitFox.php.
Melee Fox frame data: http://dx.smashbr0s.com/chara/cters/fox/.

Anyway, some other stuff. Ness and Ryu are the only characters with Dtilts that can be repeated. I don't mean like low recovery, I can continuously Dtilt like Diddy or DK's Dtilts, but there's a property? that makes it so Ness and Ryu have lower recovery if they choose to Dtilt again. For Ness, Dtilting again has 5 total frames instead of 13, so the recovery drops from 10 frames to 2 frames. For Ryu, light Dtilting again only has 6 total frames instead of 14, so its recovery drops from 12 to 4. A similar thing exists for jabs where if you hold down attack, some characters will repeatedly jab in place like Capt., (Dr.) Mario, and Fox while others like Cloud and Lucas apparently have lower recovery if they choose to jab 2 to jab 1. Also, Ryu's light Utilt has this property as well. Anyway, keeping that in mind, Ness's Dtilt while not having a lot or range or power, has a lot of speed. It's really a cr.LK like in a traditional 2D fighting game. At worst, probably a C-tier Dtilt and not a D-tier Dtilt.

Links: Ness's frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...9tivelrRJvPl7o1dBhgYo/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0.
Ryu's frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...GinKOYVI3RnpS43ERGvJM/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0.

Also, isn't Jigglypuff's Dtilt basically a slower, but stronger Kirby Dtilt? Part of me wants to vouch for Jiggles and PAC-MAN's Dtilt, but I can't explain why.
I think the only thing that saves Jigglypuff's down tilt from being F tier is that it's decently strong (deals 10% and can KO at the edge) and the low angle it sends you at. Other than that, though, you're better off using forward tilt (or not using any grounded move at all). I think D is a pretty good place for it.

Also, I would move Samus' down a tier. It has too much ending lag for how weak it is.
 
Top Bottom