Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[ARGHETH]

Difference in KBG is large enough I believe to overcome the base value difference and let Ike's start killing first though I'm not 100% sure. Though like I said I thought Ike should have stayed very top of B, and then dropped Corrin behind him.

Link's starts killing first in training mode, but only by 5-10% so they'll generally kill at about the same %s.

 

[|RK|]

"Put it in the traaaaaash!"
—Jacksfilms


So what tier do you suggest?

B or C. Probably moreso C.

 

[Shollyboster]

B or C. Probably moreso C.

I guess that seems fair. I don't ever really use f-tilt with Kirby, though. I find d-tilt to pretty much always be a better option. Can you make a case where f-tilt is the optimum move to use?

 

[Airpoizon]

Someone explain why Samosa is in A.

 

[Shollyboster]

Someone explain why Samosa is in A.

Look back on the thread. Basically if you use forward tilt it true combos into Charge shot no matter where the opponent techs.

 

[Crystanium]

Yep. Honestly, f-tilt is one of Samus' best attacks along with jab 1 if you don't continue with jab 2.

 

[Shollyboster]

Yep. Honestly, f-tilt is one of Samus' best attacks along with jab 1 if you don't continue with jab 2.

Probably one of the few redeeming traits of this disgusting character.

The salt in my For Glory is showing.

I hate Samus

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Why did Ike increase to A? I looked back and nobody has said anything positive about that move, and nothing for sure since the last list. I am happy that Shulk increased to B, but I argued for that because the move is basically as good if not better in every avenue to Ike's, minus the ability to angle. Shulk's Arts let his move more than make up for that. I think they deserve the same tier. As for whether that tier should be A or B, it's a tough call.

A not so tough call is dropping Toon Link to C. It's startup is slower than other low tier F-tilts, but at least the base knockback is good enough he won't be punished for landing it a low %. No killing power and less range than Link. Dark Pit is also an easy drop to C. Great range, but knockback stats and damage put it on the same realm as anything else below B. Pit can stay because 5 active hit frames on a long range KO potential F-tilt is kind of good, even if it has to be spaced like Marth and has more endlag

As for reposting opinions but not lengthy arguments I still feel that:
B->C
B->C
A->C

And swordfighter should probably be in B. It's not the longest reaching but among Ftilts that can kill at reasonable (100-120 at the ledge) percents, this one is just one endlag more than Link while being quicker to come out. And I generally think any F-tilt that can kill is immediately worth putting above those that can't and generally lack purpose. This would also call into question Olimar, G&W, and Charizard.

 

[|RK|]

I guess that seems fair. I don't ever really use f-tilt with Kirby, though. I find d-tilt to pretty much always be a better option. Can you make a case where f-tilt is the optimum move to use?

Usually if you're trying to keep people away, or go for a quick punish when you don't have the time for anything else. It's range (and damage) let you get a little more off of it than dtilt in the same situations. I use it a lot to stop, say, Pikachu from running in on me.

It's also helpful because it hits higher than dtilt.

 

[Shollyboster]

As for reposting opinions but not lengthy arguments I still feel that:
B->C
A->C

I'm gonna go back on this thread to see what you have posted, but before I do I want to tell you that I agree with Corrin. I don't agree with Meta Knight tho.

Why? Meta Knight's f-tilt is very good because it comes out fast and has little lag. It's a very good alternative to jab, because of these reasons. That's pretty much it. I use it a lot, and I feel like it warrants at least a little bit of recognition.

Edit: NEVERMIND I DIDN'T READ THIS RIGHT

Corrin has a good f-tilt, and I feel like they should be in B tier.

So what's so good about Corrin's f-tilt?

Nothing is super good about it, but it definitely isn't as good as a C tier tilt. Corrin's f-tilt is a one hit 10.5% which is pretty decent. It has decent end and hitlag. It's a good move to use if you stale down tilt and it has decent range. It's good for when your opponent is slightly out of range, making it a good "get off me move." It's not safe on shield, but otherwise feel free to use it liberally. Slightly harder to punish if spaced correctly, although it isn't one of those types of moves you want to specifically be hunting to use, you know?

 

[TurboLink]

So what's so good about Corrin's f-tilt?

 

[arbustopachon]

The thing about Zard's ftilt is that even if the sweetspot is disjointed and kills, the move is just so puinishable on whiff and the sourspot is so terrible. also the move is pretty garbo on shield unless you space it perfectly.
At least Zard can combo into it from a nair in order to set up an edgeguard, tho you can get much better stuff out of a nair.
I could see it on B considering how meh all ftilts are, but i think it is ok in C.
G&W should be on B.

Edit: woops said sweetspot when i mean sourspot. The sweespot still is not great tho.

 

[Shollyboster]

The thing about Zard's ftilt is that even if the sweetspot is disjointed and kills, the move is just so puinishable on whiff and the sweestspot is so terrible. also the move is pretty garbo on shield unless you space it perfectly.
At least Zard can combo into it from a nair in order to set up an edgeguard, tho you can get much better stuff out of a nair.
I could see it on B considering how meh all ftilts are, but i think it is ok in C.
G&W should be on B.

Try using it on Green Greens or Duck Hunt. Are you familiar with ESAM's z-axis video?

Edit: Not saying it should be put in a higher tier, these are some pretty niche quirks about the game.

 

[TurboLink]

The thing about Zard's ftilt is that even if the sweetspot is disjointed and kills, the move is just so puinishable on whiff and the sweestspot is so terrible. also the move is pretty garbo on shield unless you space it perfectly.
At least Zard can combo into it from a nair in order to set up an edgeguard, tho you can get much better stuff out of a nair.
I could see it on B considering how meh all ftilts are, but i think it is ok in C.
G&W should be on B.

It really is bad. It's -15 on shield drop when sweetspotted and -17 when not sweetspotted. The end lag is 30 frames as well.

 

[Shollyboster]

It really is bad. It's -15 on shield drop when sweetspotted and -17 when not sweetspotted. The end lag is 30 frames as well.

*goes over to 1.1.7 balance patch page*
"Zard f-tilt sucks, make it git gud"

Yeah, if you do not space it perfectly on shield you will get punished hard for it. At least it has good range and kills...
This is why zard just d tilts or jabs most of the time.

I mean, I personally think Zard is a terrible character. In my opinion you should only lose to a Zard if you're a bad player.

BUT HE'S FUN TO PLAY AS SOMETIMES

 

[arbustopachon]

Yeah, if you do not space it perfectly on shield you will get punished hard for it. At least it has good range and kills...
This is why zard just d tilts or jabs most of the time.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm gonna go back on this thread to see what you have posted, but before I do I want to tell you that I agree with Corrin. I don't agree with Meta Knight tho.

Why? Meta Knight's f-tilt is very good because it comes out fast and has little lag. It's a very good alternative to jab, because of these reasons. That's pretty much it. I use it a lot, and I feel like it warrants at least a little bit of recognition.

Edit: NEVERMIND I DIDN'T READ THIS RIGHT

Corrin has a good f-tilt, and I feel like they should be in B tier.


Nothing is super good about it, but it definitely isn't as good as a C tier tilt. Corrin's f-tilt is a one hit 10.5% which is pretty decent. It has decent end and hitlag. It's a good move to use if you stale down tilt and it has decent range. It's good for when your opponent is slightly out of range, making it a good "get off me move." It's not safe on shield, but otherwise feel free to use it liberally. Slightly harder to punish if spaced correctly, although it isn't one of those types of moves you want to specifically be hunting to use, you know?

Metaknight's Jab and Ftilt combo directly compete in terms of speed, range, and damage. Jab wins in damage with a minimum of 10 and isn't a hitbox just sweeping the ground. MK's jab is very punishable on whiff, so nobody is singing it's praises, but a move that only compares to that shouldn't sell you on its strengths. At least his jab does something useful like edge cancelling into Shuttle loop, maybe even catching ledge options (but we know it's not a hitbox on every frame so it's not consistent with that). Ftilt is no better than others that can deal 8% damage on hit, and especially can't compare to his Dtilt in terms of safety and applications. C is debatably too high.

And Corrin also lacks in applications. It's not especially fast, not especially safe, doesn't kill, and has just a bit too much endlag to ever true combo. My merely existing, it's a move that fits well in C.

 

[Shollyboster]

Metaknight's Jab and Ftilt combo directly compete in terms of speed, range, and damage. Jab wins in damage with a minimum of 10 and isn't a hitbox just sweeping the ground. MK's jab is very punishable on whiff, so nobody is singing it's praises, but a move that only compares to that shouldn't sell you on its strengths. At least his jab does something useful like edge cancelling into Shuttle loop, maybe even catching ledge options (but we know it's not a hitbox on every frame so it's not consistent with that). Ftilt is no better than others that can deal 8% damage on hit, and especially can't compare to his Dtilt in terms of safety and applications. C is debatably too high.

And Corrin also lacks in applications. It's not especially fast, not especially safe, doesn't kill, and has just a bit too much endlag to ever true combo. My merely existing, it's a move that fits well in C.

You've convinced me. I wish there were some sort of Bayonetta-esque f-tilt combo for Meta Knight.

 

[Crystanium]

Probably one of the few redeeming traits of this disgusting character.

The salt in my For Glory is showing.

I hate Samus

But you like Mario at least, don't you?

 

[Shollyboster]

But you like Mario at least, don't you?

Well, yeah. Mario's great. Up tilt combos only work if you don't know what you're doing.

 

[Masonomace]

Why did Ike increase to A? I looked back and nobody has said anything positive about that move, and nothing for sure since the last list. I am happy that Shulk increased to B, but I argued for that because the move is basically as good if not better in every avenue to Ike's, minus the ability to angle. Shulk's Arts let his move more than make up for that. I think they deserve the same tier. As for whether that tier should be A or B, it's a tough call.

The only reason I would have Ike above Shulk's is because of an angle-ability. Otherwise the greater ranged Ftilt Ike holds over Shulk isn't much despite of the angle since they're close in frame data. The downward angle & upward angle of Ike Ftilt are the same range, but his straight-forward Ftilt has more range. I don't know range comparisons between Shulk Ftilt & Ike angled-Ftilt, but I'd consider Shulk's Ftilt slightly better. Plus arts just make something about the move better. Both tilts can kill so I'd rate them at least B, but Idk about rating them A. .I personally feel that they don't warrant an A rating but that's just me.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Mii Brawler's F-tilt is pretty much slightly upgraded Mario's F-tilt. It is "decent" spacing tool. It is one of the few moves he should be using from pivot (other being U-tilt). Nothing special. It deserves a spot near Mario's.

Gunner's F-tilt is... Underwhelming? Like it is decent from pivot, but F-smash is just better option in every situation. As a move itself... Well it is decent spacing tool. Nothing els.

Swordspider's F-tilt is nothing to brag about. Decent killmove and spacing tool. Very similiar to that of a Lucina's. Main difference being worse range. I find its current placing in the initial list right.

While Gunner's ftilt isn't that great, it is still a useful option out of a pivot since it is faster and safer than fsmash. Gunner can also tech chase an opponent with charge blast after they have been hit by ftilt at mid to high percents. It also has a chance of tripping an opponent, and it jab locks at low percents. I would probably keep it in C tier.

 

[TDK]

The thing with 's Ftilt is outside of hitting characters that are short hopping into you, it's just straight-up worse than her dtilt. Though to be fair, that's the case with most ftilts in the game.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok final update:

Spoiler: Forward-Tilt

TL;DR:
B -> A
A -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
B -> C
B -> C
D -> C

Ok now lets move on to our next topic of discussion, Up-Tilt. Discuss and a preliminary list will go up tomorrow.

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's U-tilt.

The move is situational, but pretty good at its niche. The move comes on frame 9 and is active for a total of 4 frames. The faf is frame 34. Move deals 8% but has huge kbg allowing it to kill at around 110% without rage.
U-tilt is extremely disjointed and has great vertical range, allowing it to beat stuff like link and clouds dair. The move is very unsafe on shield due to its poor horizontal reach but at least Zard tucks his head in during the move reducing his hurtbox.
At low to mid percents u-tilt can combo into itself or into u-smash. You can also combo into it out of a landing U-air.
U-tilt is a pretty solid anti air and sharking tool and works pretty well with Zards high ground speed and low short skid.
I say B or C for it.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Ganondorf: F - It's way too slow and laggy. Truly terrible.

Ness: C or D - It's not that good in general, but it does have some niche uses, such as getting the opponent into the air and the follow up from that.

Mario: S - Combos from down-throw and into itself.

Mega Man: S or A - Great kill move.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby's is probably also S. Disjointed, invincible, combos into itself, functions as a kill confirm for certain copy abilities, frame 4, etc.

Bane of fastfallers.

 

[Lorde]

Spoiler: Utilt Hitbox Visualization

Bayo's utilt is really good. The arcing hitbox covers her entire front, and the second hit has stupid range. The first hit combos into ABK, which combos into other stuff. The second hit has a really nice, nearly vertical angle, meaning it can combo into a lot of different moves, such as uair, witch twist, etc. High bkb and low kbg means the move has high hitstun right off the bat and it will stay a combo move for a while. It comes out on frame 7, meaning it's tied with dtilt and fair as her fastest normal. The hitboxes do stay out for 6 frames, which is pretty decent. The most common use for the move is dtilt>utilt>witch twist/uair/whatever, and it's worth mentioning that dtilt>utilt>utilt true combos on fastfallers. It also only has 15 frames of endlag, which is not bad. This move isn't as useful as dtilt (which makes sense; dtilt is probably Bayo's best move and one of the better moves in the game anyway), but it still sees some mileage. Utilt can be used as a substitute for dtilt at kill percents, so utilt>uair can surprise and kill enemies expecting a dtilt. I'd say the move probably belongs in A tier.

Spoiler: Utilt Hitbox Visualization

Zelda's utilt got a weird reworking in the transition from Brawl to Smash 4. In Brawl, it was a slow and powerful kill move. In Smash 4, it's now her best combo move. The hitbox comes out frame 7 and lingers for 12 frames, arcing above her, and has 12 frames of endlag. Due to the lingering hitboxes, it's good for punishing rolls, spotdodges, covering ledge get-up options, etc. It is also important to note that the back hit is generally more useful due the better frame advantage. Utilt can into moves such as another utilt and nair. The high kbg does mean that the combos stop working at higher percents, which is unfortunate. Zelda's utilt is one of Zelda's best moves, and imo it could be in B or A tier. A lot of utilts are pretty underwhelming, so A tier isn't completely out of the question.


Her utilt is really underwhelming and I'm not a fan of it. The heart isn't even the sweetspot lol; the sweetspot is located around her shoulders. I'd say probably B or C tier. Other than being disjointed, it doesn't have much going for it.
A few good utilts are

 

[Wintermelon43]

Make Ganon's For Glory tier

Kirby is probably S like Mario and Ryu

 

[Bigbomb2]

Link - Decent at juggling at low %, fairly reliable killer at high percents. Use with first hit of bair for near guaranteed hit. Also fairly fast at with average endlag. High C or low B
Bowser - Usually just use for low level juggling or getting them into the air for a follow up at low %. Loses some utility after like 60%. Probably C
Ike - Fairly slow but also a fairly powerful kill move. One of those finisher type of moves. Probably C

 

[Djmarcus44]

Mii Gunner's up tilt is also probably S or A tier. It is a frame 5 move with great range. It also juggles at low percents, follows up into up air or nair at mid percents, and it kills around 135 depending on the character's weight.

Little Mac's up tilt is also a strong contender for S tier. It is frame 4 combo starter that is safe to use in the neutral out of a perfect pivot.

 

[Airpoizon]

So I'll talk about

is easily the worst of the 3, doing 7% at the front and 8% at the back, no kill potential and can sometimes get follow ups. Maybe low of C.

is pretty good, 12% sweet spotted, and 7% sour spot (the same as Lucina's blade at the front and more than Marths sour spot) and kills at realistic percents. However it does have more ending lag then Marcinas. Maybe B.

is pretty good also, 9% tip, 6% blade, and 5% his body. It can't kill at realistic percents, but you can get some follow ups off of it, and doesn't have much lag. Maybe B.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Robin's up tilt is, like all of Robin's tilts, mediocre. It's fairly fast, but doesn't do much damage and is pretty situational. The hitbox is fairly small and very awkward, so it's easy to miss. Its main use is as a followup out of down throw at mid percents, when down throw no longer links into jab and doesn't yet link into an aerial.

 

[blamcity]

Marth has the best up tilt for sure. At low % it is a combo starter and juggling tool. It can kill relatively early and jab 1 to u tilt is a true combo at kill % (maybe di dependent). It is great at punishing rolls in front of you and it will hit most characters if the roll behind you.(dosn't work on short characters like Kirby and picachu). Its also a great anti air.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's Utilt fills the same role as his Ftilt, but while being faster, stronger, and covering all of himself + above him. Only thing Ftilt has is slightly faster recovery time. Its a pretty solid move.

 

[Kofu]

Game & Watch's UTilt is probably D. It does good damage if both hits connect but they don't link well. It's also fairly slow, doesn't hit in front of him, and doesn't lead into anything.

Villager's UTilt is B or C. It doesn't combo, but it comes out fairly fast, lingers for over 15 frames, has good disjoint, and kills.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I only have a few opinions.
Bayo is probably A, thanks to the fact that it doesn't get much mileage on the ground, but is ludicrously good at combos, anti airs, and kill setups.

Mario is S for obvious reasons, same for Fox and Kirby.
Go nuts.

 

[Kofu]

Just remembered another notable UTilt that hasn't been mentioned yet.



DK's up tilt is pretty dang good. It's not one of the those super short duration combo UTilts, but it's capable of doing basically anything. It combos at low percents, acts as a "get-off-me" move midgame, and kills at high percents. It's tied with jab for his fastest grounded move at frame 5, covers basically the entire area above him, and has great range.

It's one of those few moves that has just the right attributes to do what it needs to do throughout a stock. Definitely A material, possibly S.

 

[LRodC]

Mewtwo's is probably a B tier up tilt. It has great combo ability, having a true combo kill confirm into up smash, and it can also string well into his aerials. On Battlefield, it's nice to use to hit from below if you don't want to go for the risky up smash.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I know some of DK's tilts have partial intangibility. Does that include Utilt? If so ya I'd say its S tier.

Also Ganondorf for F tier.