Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Funbot28]

So this idea has been brought up in a previous thread, however it was a while ago and I believe that list is kinda outdated so I decided to start a new thread on the topic. In here, we will be ranking the moves for each character (Ex: Up Air, Neutral Special, Tilts, etc...) similar to a Tier List in order to get a general consensus of what the best moves of each character is. Aspects such as Hitbox, frame data, damage output, knockback, etc.. are all considered. Here is an example of one I made for Up-Air (note the characters are not ranked within the divisions):

Spoiler: Final Up-Air

Spoiler: Final Neutral-Air

Spoiler: Forward-Air

Spoiler: Final Down-Air

Spoiler: Final Back-Air

Spoiler: Final Up-Special

Spoiler: Final Forward-Tilt

Spoiler: Final Up-Tilt

Spoiler: Final Down-Tilt

Spoiler: Final Jab

Spoiler: Final Dash Attack

Spoiler: Final Up-Throw

Spoiler: Final Forward-Throw

Spoiler: Final Down-Throw

Spoiler: Final Back-Throw

Spoiler: Final Forward-Smash

Spoiler: Final Up-Smash

Spoiler: Final Down-Smash

Spoiler: Final Neutral-Special

Spoiler: Final Side-Special

We can work together to rank the other moves or you can leave opinions on my lists as well. Each move will have one round of discussion before the list is finalized. I encourage you to create you're own lists as well if your'e opinion varies from mine.

Excited on this project

 

[Crystanium]

What are you basing this on? Damage? Frames? Hitbox? Hurtbox? Knock-back?

I think Samus is too low. U-air is one of her best aerials in terms of setting up another attack. It eats shields, though not as well as say, Zamus' b-air. It's unable to stop disjointed hitboxes, unfortunately. It's last hit can cause a KO if the opponent is high. I compare this attack to Sheik's u-air, though Sheik's is better.

 

[Floor]

I don't think it's fair to put Lucy and Marth apart on this one. I get that Marth can tip and i don't want to bring the year long debate to this thread, but I think for all intents and purposes the tipper balances out in a listing such as this

This is just my opinion and something to keep in mind. Maybe in a good KO move like forward smash, i could see maybe giving a spot up for Marth, but only for moves the Marth and Lucina use considerably differently

 

[Funbot28]

What are you basing this on? Damage? Frames? Hitbox? Hurtbox? Knock-back?

I think Samus is too low. U-air is one of her best aerials in terms of setting up another attack. It eats shields, though not as well as say, Zamus' b-air. It's unable to stop disjointed hitboxes, unfortunately. It's last hit can cause a KO if the opponent is high. I compare this attack to Sheik's u-air, though Sheik's is better.

Yes essentially all those components are considered, I will edit OP.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm actually shocked that Mii Swordfighter Uair is D tier, but I shouldn't be that surprised I suppose. The move deals 16%, is active on frame 11-13 doing the sweetspot, has a fairly decent hitbox size, & has a good autocancel window. When used properly, it's safe on block or a kill move in the early ~90% on the majority of the cast.

 

[Drewthedude64]

Are these moves supposed to be viewed in a vacuum or in the way they complement the rest of a character's set?

 

[Djmarcus44]

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4​

KuroganeHammer is a website designed to host frame data of all the characters in Smash 4 presented in a way that's easy to navigate and read.

Please leave feedback, bug reports or errors you've noticed here.

Feel free to ask any other questions too!

Based on the frame data in the website above, there are several changes that should be made to your list.
has a better up air than (Although Sheik's up air comes out 1 frame faster, Samus's up air does more damage, has more killing power, and has less landing lag. Sheik's up air doesn't autocancel in a shorthop while Samus's up air does).
and have better up airs than because their up airs are faster and more powerful.
has a better up air than (Both moves have the same frame data, but Dr. Mario's up air does a little more damage)
has a better up air than (Swordfighter's up air has more range, speed and power)
has a better up air than (Her consistent damage on the move is more reliable than getting the tipper on Marth's up air)
has an up air that is as good as (The biggest difference between them is the two extra frames of landing lag on Link's up air and the shorter range of Toon Link's up air. Link's up air also deals slightly more damage with slightly less knockback when compared to Toon Link's)

 

[Funbot28]

Are these moves supposed to be viewed in a vacuum or in the way they complement the rest of a character's set?

I prefer more in a vacuum in comparison to the same move on other characters (if makes makes sense lol). It would be too subjective if if would be related to the characters overall moveset otherwise.

Based on the frame data in the website above, there are several changes that should be made to your list.
has a better up air than (Although Sheik's up air comes out 1 frame faster, Samus's up air does more damage, has more killing power, and has less landing lag. Sheik's up air doesn't autocancel in a shorthop while Samus's up air does).
and have better up airs than because their up airs are faster and more powerful.
has a better up air than (Both moves have the same frame data, but Dr. Mario's up air does a little more damage)
has a better up air than (Swordfighter's up air has more range, speed and power)
has a better up air than (Her consistent damage on the move is more reliable than getting the tipper on Marth's up air)
has an up air that is as good as (The biggest difference between them is the two extra frames of landing lag on Link's up air and the shorter range of Toon Link's up air. Link's up air also deals slightly more damage with slightly less knockback when compared to Toon Link's)

I agree with most of these, although I don't really find Ganon and Captain Falcon to have U-Air's on the same level as Bayo, since they both don't follow up into other moves in comparison to the witch. Bayo can still combo with U-Air, which is why I consider it to be top tier, and its kill power and frame data are also quite exceptional as well. I find the nerf to Falcon's U-Air is what limits it from being top tier as it was amazing before the patch that it was nerfed in (I forgot which one).

 

[John12346]

Corrin in A Tier makes sense. For a Frame 7 move, his Uair is absolutely massive in hitbox size. The proof? IT BEATS CLOUD'S DAIR. In addition, it does a good 9 damage, and can kill. You can even get combos into other moves if you hit a landing Uair.

I feel inclined to mention, though, that Wii Fit Trainer definitely has one of the better Uairs in the game. It's a Frame 5 move that does a neat 10 damage and can kill. It has a rather large area of effect, and is one of her only disjointed moves (the others being Usmash and Header) to the extent that it can contest Cloud's Dair as long as she's not DIRECTLY below him.

For all it has going for it, I would say it at least belongs in B Tier.

Spoiler: Wii Fit's Uair

 

[Goombo]

Voting for Robin's to be S-Tier, especially when something comparable (but worse) like Ness' Upair is up there.
13 Percent damage, killing everywhere on the stage at 120% rageless, having a giant arcing hitbox with long lasting late hit, comboing into itself and other stuff when used as falling Upair, with a multitude of true combos into it, autocancels in SHFF (and thus frametrapping airdodges in one of the most dangerous grabs in the game) with the autocancel sourspot being an insane (but hard to land) combostarter.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I prefer more in a vacuum in comparison to the same move on other characters (if makes makes sense lol). It would be too subjective if if would be related to the characters overall moveset otherwise.


I agree with most of these, although I don't really find Ganon and Captain Falcon to have U-Air's on the same level as Bayo, since they both don't follow up into other moves in comparison to the witch. Bayo can still combo with U-Air, which is why I consider it to be top tier, and its kill power and frame data are also quite exceptional as well. I find the nerf to Falcon's U-Air is what limits it from being top tier as it was amazing before the patch that it was nerfed in (I forgot which one).

Captain Falcon can combo into several of his moves from up air (this includes his knee). His falling up air is also a safe tool in the neutral. The nerf to up air was on the move's damage, but it actually wasn't that bad because it made it a little bit easier to combo into other moves.

While Ganondorf's up air doesn't combo into as much, it is still a very powerful and fast up air that can jab lock from its weak hit at low percents.

 

[Xygonn]

Samus is too low. I'm not gonna try to define the tiers for you, but it's one of her best tools, combos well, confirms into damage at lower percent, and it KO confirms on soft hit into jab1 -> fsmash around 100%; usmash on some characters; or upb around 130% (depending on rage), catches 2 frames because the looping hits are 2/3 active. The tip hit is just a bit disjointed and the first tip hit can give pratfalls off platforms. You can get the first hit box of uair out after a sh bair to catch people that don't know the MU very well off guard. It chews through projectiles and lasts long enough to punish (e.g. Mario fireball from the air). It's a very good move overall.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Tricky choice of move since so many character metas are defined by their Uairs. I have to disagree with Sheik most of all. Low kill potential, no autocancel or use as an approach. It can't even be counted on to secure kills from a grab. She has top tier moves, and Uair isn't one of them. Bayonetta's Uair is also not that exceptional. The hitbox begins behind her, and the extended version is a frivolous option for neutral. It was much better as a combo finisher when 0 to deaths still worked consistently, but now it doesn't even have that. I also wouldn't rank Fox's that highly. The hitbox is extremely precise, there's no combo or kill setup into it, and the KO power lags behind both Usmash and Bair, which you can count on.

I don't think Marth and Lucina should be separated. In fact I would argue for Lucina's to be overall better with such excellent, consistent combo potential from a falling Uair, but it's not important. Uair is a tricky move for Marth to tip, and often only ever happens as a Dthrow followup, which is relevant to like 10 matchups where the followup is consistent at some specific ranges. I think Ganondorf's Uair is vastly underestimated. It's an excellent tool for landing when facing away from the opponent. The late hit trips, jab locks, forces falls from ledges, and you get all those possibilities with a move that autocancels from short hop and tucks his hurtbox high to get over projectiles. Even scarier is getting hit by that same hitbox when recovering to the ledge. Ganon can hang on and let go for Uair to cover a massive area. And the late hit has a 0 degree launch angle. Completely horizontal to gimp opponents with bad recovery moves. I think Mii Swordfighter especially needs more love. His Uair is one of his more exceptional attacks for sure. Combos from a throw, can kill, is very safe on block, and can combo into other moves on landing. Besides, Swordfighter will end up in the bottom if not second to bottom tier for almost all of his non-special moves. Uair and Bair are where I'd throw him at least into the middle for proper representation of which moves are really worth mention. And finally, Falco gets a lot of mileage out of his Uair for combos and kill setups - comparable to the likes of Pikachu, Wario, and Yoshi.

 

[bc1910]

Are you ranking these moves in a vacuum or with respect to the characters they are attached to?

In a vacuum, Sheik's Uair is simply a worse version of Greninja's and belongs somewhere in C-tier.

With respect to her remaining 50/50s and combos into it, her Uair is about as good as Greninja's overall (she has some killing 50/50s but it has less utility over a whole stock).

Either way it's nowhere near the top tier let alone 2nd in the game.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so after a couple of people's opinions I decided to change up the list again:

Spoiler

TL;DR:
S -> C
S -> A
A -> B
D -> B
D -> B
D -> B
D -> A

Keep on discussing your opinions on the new list!

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I would say to move Robin and R.O.B. to S tier. Their uairs are insanely powerful and very safe. Even if they didn't have a hoo hah out of dthrow, they would still be some of the best uairs in the game.

I would also say to move Zelda to D tier. Her uair only lasts three frames, has a lot of startup, has a pretty small hitbox, and can't autocancel at the end of the attack.

 

[Nemesis561]

I think you've got bowser jr up air a bit low, it's an amazing juggling tool with amazing frame data. It makes his advantage state one of the best in the game, one of the few bright spots for the character. Also is a guaranteed combo off of kart dash until very high percent and kills at decently high percent

 

[Funbot28]

I agree with going to S, but not . Rob's Uair unfortunately is very easy to SDI out of which makes it hard to connect all the hits (especially the last one with the most Knockback). I still feel it is an amazing anti-air option, but not S-Rank worthy imo.

Also agree with moving down and :4bowserJr: up.

Just a reminder that the next move discussion will commence on Wednesday, so leave any last opinions on Up Air before it is too late

 

[adom4]

Ganondorf's Uair is nowhere near D tier, while it doesn't function like a typical Uair it's arguably Ganon's best move for a reason.
Fast startup at 6 frames, AC's in a shorthop, big, long lasting hitbox, rather powerful, tipman is one of the best gimping tools in the game, it's an amazing Uair that in my opinion should be in A tier.

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

Why is fox in the same tier as pikachu? Three pika uairs does less damage than one fox uair, and with platforms fox can combo 3-4 of them, and it autocancels as well as kills. Fox's utilt, tipper dtilt, AC dair, and even landing uair (yes, that's a thing) all combo into his uair, which again, does 16 damage fully. Sonic's uair is weaker and does less damage than fox's too. Just seems a little silly. Greninja's uair is weaker, does less damage, and doesn't AC. This move is more versatile than you think, and you can't look past 16% damage on a move that can combo into itself. Sure, it's speed is only an average frame 9, and it spdoesnt have good horizontal range, but it still combos out of stuff and into itself, resulting in ridiculous damage. It sets up insane airdodge traps, and once you get the hang of it, is really easy to land. Also, who cares if the kill power is lower than his smashes? I could say that about literally any character on this list for at least one of their smashes.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Why is Dedede's so low? It has pretty good knockback, pretty good vertical range, is good offstage, and for once doesn't have terrible frame data.

Other thoughts:

• should be in the tier above
  
• should be lower
  
• and should be in the tier above.

Rest aren't major enough for me to speaficially mention them

 

[Dagon97]

Why is Dedede's so low? It has pretty good knockback, pretty good vertical range, is good offstage, and for once doesn't have terrible frame data.

Other thoughts:

• should be in the tier above
  
• should be lower
  
• and should be in the tier above.

Rest aren't major enough for me to speaficially mention them

peach's uair is amazing, you can combo to dtilt or fc nair or grab and it is hella easy

 

[Furret24]

Link and Toon Link's uairs have large disjointed vertical range. On top of this, they both also have very long hitbox durations, making them good for juggling and killing, paticuarly Link's. The should both be in B tier imo.

Ike's uair lingers a while and is stupidly powerful. Need I say more? It should also be a tier up.

Bowser Jr should also be atleast one tier higher. It's a powerful and very fast juggling move.

Duck Hunt's might also be a little low. His up air is pretty powerful, does good damage, has deceptive range, autocancels in a short hop, and has good frame data (hits frame 6).

Charizard should definetly be a tier down. It may be powerful, but it has a terrible hitbox and frame data.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so the final changes to the list were made:

Spoiler

TL;DR:
A -> S
B -> A
B -> A
B -> A
B -> A
A -> B
D -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
A -> B
D -> B
D -> B
B -> C
C -> D

We will now start discussing neutral airs, I will leave my own initial list when I have time later today, but feel free to leave your own opinions until then.

 

[Masonomace]

Neutral air, aka Clock Turn, gets a C rating from me. Might get a B rating depending on how the lot looks.

My C-rating reasoning: The move is active for 18 frames having wide range capable of beating a good amount of dodge options as well as airdodge, which can result with a punish for airdodge lag or connect the hitbox & even follow-up from it similar to how characters like Ike Corrin & R.O.B. can follow-up from their Nairs. The move has fairly low landing lag being 10 frames, & deals weak damage with the closer Blade hitbox that is ideal for combo follow-ups. It also deals more damage with the outer Beam hitbox when hitting from afar, making this safe on shield with the right spacing. And like I said, the wide range covers all around Shulk, so this can be used for walling, ledge-pressure, slaying dodges, or covering a particular area at a time for said reason, like initiating a combo follow-up if the moment arises.

I didn't mention once about arts, but Jump Speed & Buster augment Nair's power in these fields in several ways.

 

[HoSmash4]

Fox Uair should be S, easily. Any who has watched Larry will not say otherwise.

 

[John12346]

Here, let me get some easy ones out of the way (no ordering within tiers):

S:
A:

I would say that Nairs that you can use to mash your way out of combos aren't the best, but still extremely useful, that's why they're in A Tier. Hopefully the S Tier Nairs are self-explanatory~

 

[Djmarcus44]

Here, let me get some easy ones out of the way (no ordering within tiers):

S:
A:

I would say that Nairs that you can use to mash your way out of combos aren't the best, but still extremely useful, that's why they're in A Tier. Hopefully the S Tier Nairs are self-explanatory~

has a nair that is at least A tier since it is also a combo breaker nair that starts combos for brawler.
/ has a nair that is a strong contender for A tier since it is a frame 4 move that hits around the Pits. It is also a good landing option that can pop up an opponent for a combo.

 

[adom4]

Nominating 's Nair for C tier.
it's not particularly good onstage after the last changes it got, the first hit is super unsafe & it's hard to hit with both hits unless the character is tall.
On the other hand it combos out of D-throw fairly reliable, does a ton of damage & is absolutely monstrous offstage.

 

[Nemesis561]

Warios should be around A or B tier id say... has 2 hitboxes the later one combos nicely into warios aerials... and has a great kill confirm into waft. Also a pretty good out of shield option, reason I'd drop it a bit is it can be a risky move as his hitbox is his hurt box obviously.. he stretches himself out into a big hurtbox..

Bowser jr Nair is pretty subpar Id place it in D tier or so probably... can be a nice mix-up landing option but is super punishable when shielded.. can extend combos a bit at times but not a critical part of his move se

I think I'd put corrin and ike Nairs maybe in A, but at least b, they're not as good as clouds Nair but serve a similar purpose

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so after considering the discussion made and my opinions, here is the initial list I think we can start off with:

Spoiler

Leave your nominations as always

P.S I also saw quite a few of Larry Lur's matches, and I feel Fox has the potential to rise to S in the Up-AIr list, do you guys feel the same? (this will be the last change however).

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

How do we rate Mega Man's Nair? It's a third of an attack. Do we factor in the qualities of the buster mode entirely? Being able to shoot while airborne isn't one of the more fantastic aspects of the attack, but being able to jump and double jump to avoid danger is great. Plus landing in buster mode lets additional shots function as frame 1 jab/projectiles for covering your landing. Nair has a cannon hit at point blank with a ton of base knockback, but it's just one of the lesser tools of Mega Man's top tier edgeguarding game.

I think G&W is very deserving of C, maybe even B. 17% in total and an important part of his grab combos. Plus landing lag is low and there's a disjoint that starts above and surrounds his body. The only issue with the attack is a lack of lingering hitboxes like his other aerials have. Also, this should be the only aerial where Little Mac doesn't receive bottom tier all alone. The fact is he has the fastest Nair in the game that commonly gets him out of early strings. The attack itself doesn't accomplish much on hit, but he would be a lesser character without it when trying to land back on the ground. WFT Nair is also great for all of the reasons as Wario, but with more damage to go with followup potential. It is considerably slower to come out, but can autocancel and is her best attack for landing. And I think Roy doesn't deserve D. It may not autocancel or have the short hop Side B setup that Lucina/Marth have, but it's a functional move that can only be punished with a shieldgrab when Roy makes little effort to space. Marth and Lucina only have their side B setup to warrant using Nair, but for Roy, I think it's one of his core moves.

I wouldn't rate Mewtwo and MK so highly. Neither fit the frame 5 or faster criteria of the others on the same tier, nor autocancel. For Mewtwo, the attack has criminally low disjoint and is unpredictable to work with outside of an advantageous state because it's hard to tell where the victim will end up upon landing. It's not safe on shield and questionable on crossup. MK's nair has many of the same issues, but with a bit more disjoint. It doesn't setup into anything, however. I also wouldn't rank ROB's so highly. It's a commonly used move, but also the most commonly punished attack of ROBs. And at 18 startup and only 6-8% damage, the only saving grace is low landlag, excellent AC window and large disjoint to make the move safe on block against most OoS options. He's extremely vulnerable to attack before it's active, and the move is slow enough you can react by simply getting out of the way and punishing with a well timed long range attack of your own. I would place DK's into D tier. having such a slow Nair and Fair are a big part of why DK prefers to keep his back to opponents when airborne. Most importantly, the attack fails to cover the area underneath DK. There's potentially excellent uses for Nairs on everybody in C tier, but DK sticks out. Finally, Diddy's Nair isn't great. It's the weakest link of his collection of aerials. While it's true that the move is criminally underrated among players, it has enough weaknesses that B is overrating it.

Edit: Oh and Villager. Frame 3, tons of active frames, great edgeguard tool with a low launch angle. Deserves B, maybe A. Many Villager mains make heavy use of the move.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Nair is definitely not D tier. 14%, multihit, chains into itself twice over in mid percents, and chains into Uair at kill percents. It may not be a combo breaker, but it makes up for it everywhere else.

I personally like 's Nair, but it's something that more complements his kit than it being truly outstanding in any degree other than range and gimping ability. It may barely make C tier, but eh.

 

[Nemesis561]

Few notes...

I think should be a tier lower at least.. not reliable out of shield, the hitbox does not match the animation (similar animation to Nair but his hitbox is pretty much his whole body.. is just like his belly area) and very unsafe on shield... it does combo from down throw at low percents though which is nice and his fast fall speed makes the move better

I think Nair should be maybe one tier higher very good juggling move and fits hit kit beautifully... I don't play the character so I'm missing something (?) but from what I see seems very good

I think should be higher.. that move gets his momentum train moving and starts a lot of his combo game... it's not completely safe on shield but you can cross up shields to make it safer

I might consider s tier ... soft hit Nair at ledge is scary and her meta has shifted a lot towards this for kills.

And I'd agree with Johan WFT Nair should be higher no question

 

[Goombo]

Ryus Nair is Frame 4, breaks combos, starts combos including kill confirms, can be used twice in a shorthop, the hitbox is basically his whole body and it has the absurd landing lag of 6 (!) frames.
Definitely a contender for S tier.

 

[Djmarcus44]

has a nair that should be in A Tier because it is a frame 3 nair that combos into grabs and jab locks until 50%. It also gets follow ups at later percentages, and it lasts for 26 frames.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Why are Roy and Marth's Nair's so low? I would argue that both are at least B-Tier Nairs (Personally I think A, but I'm not gonna shoot that high). Both Nairs are very fast moves with good range, damage, and low landing lag. Roy's Nair can combo into many of his other moves (hit one can combo into Jab and D-Tilt at most percents and some KO moves like D-Smash and Blazer at later Percents, while hit 2 can combo into Fair) and Marth's Nair has ridiculous KO Power when tippered and the first hit can combo into several of his ground moves like Roy (albiet not as reliably due to less hitstun + Higher Landing lag than Roy's Nair. When spaced, both moves are also fairly safe on Shield.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Ryus Nair is Frame 4, breaks combos, starts combos including kill confirms, can be used twice in a shorthop, the hitbox is basically his whole body and it has the absurd landing lag of 6 (!) frames.
Definitely a contender for S tier.

He doesn't need to break combos when focus attack armor is active on frame 1.

I'm also worried we're rating combo breaker Nairs a bit too highly in general. Frame 3 attacks are fast, but air dodges and double jumps are faster, and everybody's got those. Especially air dodges due to hitstun cancel. Using moves like this to avoid strings can work as a third option, but will be punished just as much as the others if abused.

 

[MarioMeteor]

The Hero-Kings (and Roy) should definitely be higher on the up air list. Jigglypuff does not have a better up air than Roy.

She should, however, be much higher on the neutral air list, as it's a frame 5 move that deals respectable damage, lingers fora long time, and kills somewhat reliably. Roy and the Hero-Kings need to be higher on there, as well.

Based on the frame data in the website above, there are several changes that should be made to your list.
has a better up air than (Although Sheik's up air comes out 1 frame faster, Samus's up air does more damage, has more killing power, and has less landing lag. Sheik's up air doesn't autocancel in a shorthop while Samus's up air does).
and have better up airs than because their up airs are faster and more powerful.
has a better up air than (Both moves have the same frame data, but Dr. Mario's up air does a little more damage)
has a better up air than (Swordfighter's up air has more range, speed and power)
has a better up air than (Her consistent damage on the move is more reliable than getting the tipper on Marth's up air)
has an up air that is as good as (The biggest difference between them is the two extra frames of landing lag on Link's up air and the shorter range of Toon Link's up air. Link's up air also deals slightly more damage with slightly less knockback when compared to Toon Link's)

Dr. Mario's up air launches at a horizontal angle, which makes it worse than Mario's because it can't combo as well, nor can it kill at any reasonable percent.

 

[Djmarcus44]

The Hero-Kings (and Roy) should definitely be higher on the up air list. Jigglypuff does not have a better up air than Roy.

She should, however, be much higher on the neutral air list, as it's a frame 5 move that deals respectable damage, lingers fora long time, and kills somewhat reliably. Roy and the Hero-Kings need to be higher on there, as well.

Dr. Mario's up air launches at a horizontal angle, which makes it worse than Mario's because it can't combo as well, nor can it kill at any reasonable percent.

After watching some combo videos of both characters, I can see that Mario's up air can get him more combos, but I think that Mario's superior mobility is a bigger factor in the difference between the combos from these two up airs. You also brought up a valid point about Mario's up air killing earlier even though it doesn't kill very early either. Overall, it seems you are right about Mario having the better up air. By the way, Funbot28 said that he wasn't making anymore changes to the up air list besides possibly moving Fox's up air to S Tier.