Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Kofu]

is S-tier, incredible tool in neutral, does a lot of damage, combostarter at low percents, kills at high percents pretty fast from anywhere on the stage, really meaty hitbox, brilliant autocancel and a lot of setups into it.

doesn't belong into B-tier, neither does to A. Top tier or not, those are mediocre moves.

Seeing higher thandoesn't seem right to me, but I'm unsure how they should be changed.

Fox's FAir is pretty flexible. It works as a combo ender (although UAir and BAir are usually better for that) but can also create some nasty traps thanks to its autolink angle and Fox's fall speed. You can fast fall FAir onto the stage to cancel the last hit to force a getup on the opponent if they don't tech. It's even in one of the game's tips! You can pull a similar stunt offstage to drag the foe to the blastzone and then footstool them.

Shulk's FAir is better than DK's, I agree.

Mario's FAir is too high, Bowser Jr.'s is too low. The move is a massive lingering disjoint that autocancels and does good damage (and can kill offstage but that's not much of the move's appeal). Lucas's is also probably too low.

 

[williamsga555]

Dedede's fair honestly might be the worst non-Mac fair in the game. Move is stupidly undertuned in all departments other than damage (12% is pretty nice, sure).

I mean cripes, it's a 12% move that's somehow unsafe on hit at early percents. Iunno how you even manage that.


Also agreeing that Jr's fair should be at least a bit higher for all the reasons Kofu's said. Cannot understate how long that move is active, it's basically a forwards sex kick.

Also also agreeing on Robin talk, Levin fair is nutty. It's always a little faster than you'd think for the damage and reach it has.

 

[ARGHETH]

It respawns after 8 seconds.

...
Yeah, it's 8.
Stupid wiki.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Marth's Fair is probably an S-Rank Fair. A combination of insanely good range, startup, and kill power make it overall better than both Ike or corrin's fair's imo.

Marth's Fair is good, but not overly safe in neutral, due to it's below average AC frames and landing lag. It's not safe to spam like Sheik's either. If anything, Marth's could move down to B, albeit one of the best in B due to the reasons you explained.

 

[Goombo]

Fox's FAir is pretty flexible. It works as a combo ender (although UAir and BAir are usually better for that) but can also create some nasty traps thanks to its autolink angle and Fox's fall speed. You can fast fall FAir onto the stage to cancel the last hit to force a getup on the opponent if they don't tech.

You should literally never fall for this once you have the timing down to tech it.

You can pull a similar stunt offstage to drag the foe to the blastzone and then footstool them.

This mainly works if the opponent doesn't know about the setup and is easily avoidable since it's often the only thing Fox can do offstage. It also puts the Fox player at a really big risk.
Or if your recovery is bad enough that you really can't avoid the fair spike, most of the roster should be able to edgeguard you.

I still don't see how Fox deserves to be in the same tier with charakters with good Fairs like ZSS, Greninja or Lucina.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Nominate the following:
going down to either A or B. It's a powerful whiff punishing move and it eats weak projectiles, but it's not fast or safe enough to be at S tier.
going down to B because it's slow and contestable.
going down to B or C because there's nothing particularly amazing about this move other than its' range. Slow and laggy and not that strong (but meteor is ok though)
going down to C because it is slow, laggy and very weak outside of the meteor hit.
and going up to B because their fairs have good range and KO power, but moderate lag.
going up to B because it is a pretty nice combo tool.
going up to C since it is fairly disjointed and active.
going up to B because it is a decent edge-guarding option (trades with this move cause semi spikes).

 

[kendikong]

I'm gonna give my two cents for the aerials of 2 of my most used heavies: Bowser and Zard

Uair:
Zard's UAir is definitely not bottom 4. It is a powerful kill move, which should be at least on the same level as Bowser's or Zelda's. Speaking of which, Bowser's and DK's UAir placements should be swapped. DK's Uair has much better frame data.

Fair:
Both Zard and Bowser should be C. Both have good power, but are fairly laggy. Pretty unusable as a landing option on a grounded opponent due to that landing lag, but has pretty good usage on aerial opponents.

Bair:
Bowser's bair is very strong, but is insanely laggy. C, or possibly even D tier.
Zard on the other hand is definitely B-tier. If you actually practice with zard, hitting the sweetspot is really easy. Very long reach(able to outrange most aerials and smash attacks), safe on shield if spaced properly, and kills really early. Only reason I wouldn't say it's A-tier is because of Zard's slow air mobility.

Dair:
Both in C-tier. How good Bowser's dair is really depends on how well you use it. It's garbage if you're predictable, but is pretty good if they don't expect it. Zard's is a pretty good and powerful spike, but does not have much usage elsewhere.

 

[Funbot28]

Zard's UAir is definitely not bottom 4. It is a highly powerful kill move, which should be at least on the same level as Bowser's or Zelda's.

Speaking of which, Bowser's and DK's UAir placements should be swapped. DK's Uair has much better frame data.

The U-Air and N-Air lists have been finalized, so unless there is a large community support for a change, there will be no changes to those lists.

P.S I will also update the F-Air list later today.

 

[Masonomace]

My suggestion:
's Fair going from D > B

Currently Shulk's Fair hitbox lasts five frames long, has wide frontal range capable of hitting above & below him, has moderately low landing lag, & can string into itself off conversions with particular arts active. When thinking clear-headed & carefully playing Shulk, you can use Fair a good amount of times in Neutral & basically keep people out quite well with it. The move also does well in the Advantage when edge-guarding off-stage with it because of it being active for five frames while having that large wide range that rivals Ike's Fair range yet still more wide-ranged than his. You can catch the two-frame window of a ledge grab with the ending portion of the hitbox, & in general you have the choice to string Fairs like you're Sheik in Jump art, or go for more horizontal strings towards the sides with Speed art.

The only things that holds back Shulk's Fair becoming A or S tier is the fact that you cannot autocancel the move from a Short Hop without very specific requirements involving an Advanced Technique (but you can autocancel it with a Full Hop in Vanilla & in Jump art), the lacking damage prevents it from being a solid kill move on its own without the use of Smash art or unless you're way off-stage gimping with it, the startup being frame 14 is still slow enough that other characters who rise to the opportunity can box-out Shulk in the air, & the endlag is bad enough that you can't act after the move finishes out of a Short Hop. So the result is that you Short Hop, Fair, & always land taking lag unless you're in Jump art which then you can act with doublejump before landing.

 

[Wintermelon43]

The U-Air and N-Air lists have been finalized, so unless there is a large community support for a change, there will be no changes to those lists.

P.S I will also update the F-Air list later today.

Will you ever change it after we have made a list for every move though? Because at that point it will probably be free discussion.

Also, for the forward air tier list, another problem nobody has talked about is Jigglypuff's being too low. It's a very good combo tool (If you hit it on the sourspot, it combos into rest, and it combos into other moves as well), it has great offstage ability as an edgeguard tool and the ability to wall of pain with it, has good priority, etc.

Other thoughts:

• Dr. Mario and Falco shoudn't be in that tier either.
• Shulk is WAY too low, Bowser Jr's is too low too.
• Zelda's is defitenly E, her's is no Little Mac but it is still bad since it's extreme risk for reward. You rarely get the good forward air.
• Cloud and Yoshi's Fairs are pretty laggy, I don't think they should be in A. Same with Peach's, her should be A

That isn't it of course, just some of the bigger issues.

 

[Lorde]

It's a pet peeve of mine when people way overrate their main (so basically the entirety of this thread), but imo Bayonetta's fair is at least A tier and would even fit in in S tier. It's better than all of the fairs in B tier, anyway.

• The first thing to note is the gigantic hitbox of fair1 (the most important part of the move). Like, just look at it:

Spoiler: Why Sakurai

note: there is a graphic effect in-game that this visualization is missing, so it's not as ridiculous as this image implies (but it's still pretty ridiculous)

• High bkb and low kbg means that it immediately has high hitstun at low percents and it'll still combo into other moves at high percents.
• The angle it sends opponents at is great
• Frame 7 is decent (for comparison, Sheik's fair comes out on frame 5 iirc), and it lingers for 3 frames
• It only has 14 frames of landing lag and autocancels in a short hop
• Many moves combo into it (dtilt, utilt, Witch Twist, etc.)
• Possibly the best combo-extender in the game due to the multitude of moves fair1 combos into and out of
• Fair123 does 11.xx damage
• SH fair1 is a combo starter in itself and its property of popping Bayonetta and her opponent up is invaluable
• SHFF fair1 true combos into fsmash at kill percents

I could add more, but I think you get the point. Bayo's fair is definitely better than B tier.

The rest of the tier list is a bit of a mess, but I can address that some other time.

 

[Fuerzo]

No, Yoshi's is fine in A. Sure it's laggy, but it's an effective spacing tool and one of the easiest-to-land meteors in the game.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok new update coming through:

Spoiler: Front-AIr

TL;DR:
S -> A
A -> S
B -> S
A -> B
C -> B
C -> B
D -> B
D -> C
B -> C

 

[HoSmash4]

What makes Bayonetta's fair S?

 

[Lorde]

Yeah, that kind of surprised me.

Top of A is probs the best place for it.

But if Robin's fair can be S tier, I don't see why Bayonetta's can't.

 

[HoSmash4]

Every S tier fair is pretty dominant in neutral for their respective character, except Bayonettas. I'd prefer it in A.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so I guess I will go with this:

S -> A

Also the F-Air list discussion will end on June 22, so get in your noms before then.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

What's bad about Olimar's Fair? It's completely serviceable and disjointed. I also think Jigglypuff's Fair should go up to B tier. The late hit is just about as good as the late hit of Nair with combos, trips, and locks. It lacks in active hit frames, but makes up for it by being the best of her moves to true combo into Rest when rising or falling with the late hit into an opponent. And I think Metaknight deserves C. It has none of the killing power of Bair, is the slowest of his aerials with only one active frame per swing, and still frustratingly can't be autocanceled from a shorthop. The low damage on each swing makes for an unfavorable position when blocked. The range allows you to space yourself with minimal effort from shieldgrabs, but unless you land frame perfectly after a hit, your advantage is so bad that all non tethered dash grabs after shield drop should reach metaknight before he can spot dodge to avoid it. This is a big deal in a tournament match, and a primary reason why you just don't see this move in neutral with him.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Is fair still going or are we moving on?

 

[Funbot28]

Is fair still going or are we moving on?

Only for like ~ a day or so

 

[Lavani]

What's bad about Olimar's Fair? It's completely serviceable and disjointed.

Low priority results in it failing to beat anything, item priority means it can be clanked by aerials, and the hitbox being tied to the pikmin instead of Olimar means anything the pikmin gets clanked out by can still hit Olimar anyway. Something like Mario bair might get outranged, but it doesn't mean a whole lot when the pikmin clanks on Mario's foot and then Olimar gets kicked too anyway. Numerically it's a pretty good move, though, and I think it's better than some of the things in C tier.

Agreed on Meta Knight, though I'd go as far as putting it in D. Lacking all around, and does very little that his other aerials don't already do as well as very little in general.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Low priority results in it failing to beat anything, item priority means it can be clanked by aerials, and the hitbox being tied to the pikmin instead of Olimar means anything the pikmin gets clanked out by can still hit Olimar anyway. Something like Mario bair might get outranged, but it doesn't mean a whole lot when the pikmin clanks on Mario's foot and then Olimar gets kicked too anyway. Numerically it's a pretty good move, though, and I think it's better than some of the things in C tier.

Agreed on Meta Knight, though I'd go as far as putting it in D. Lacking all around, and does very little that his other aerials don't already do as well as very little in general.

Oh, I had no idea the pikmin aerials had the luma effect. The move being disjointed probably does more harm than good when it comes to use in an air or neutral state. And based on that description, his aerials must be incapable of intercepting recoveries with a hitbox. I wish more people played Olimar so I had a better understanding of how bad his character can be.

Speaking of Luma, I think Rosalina's Fair is rated too highly. Frame 11 startup isn't overwhelmingly slower than most of her moves, but there's no quick frame 3 Luma attack to cover it, and neither her nor Luma's attacks are particularly powerful for killing or damage. Plus is the slowest of her aerials in terms of both landing lag and use during an extended air time. The range on both Fairs also only extends outward about as much as Luma's Jab 1, not a lot by her standards. Seems like C to me.

 

[JosePollo]

Lucas's fair:

• 41-frame duration (pretty long aerial cooldown)
• auto-cancels frame 1, then starting frame 38 (very mediocre; does not auto-cancel from a short hop)
• 12-frame landing lag (decent enough to use as a spaced landing option)
• active 9-12 (mediocre start-up, only lasts four frames)
• 9.0% sourspot, 11.5% sweetspot; mediocre KB on the sourspot, good KB on the sweetspot.
• Hitbox:

Spoiler: FAIR

Good spacing tool that is safe on shield (sweetspotted) when used to land. The sweetspot is transcendent and disjointed, which makes is great at beating out non-disjointed other non-disjointed attacks. Due to hitbox interpolation, Lucas's fair can quite literally create an wall in front of him as he falls to keep non-disjointed characters out. Can be comboed into from: sourspotted dash attack, nair, landing fair, landing up air, no-tech on-stage down air spike, and down throw. At early percents it's possible to land with sweetspotted fair into a grab due to its short landing lag, damage, and electric property. The sourspot is also capable of jab locking and can easily be set-up from a down throw + footstool. Due to the sweetspot being transcendent, however, fair has a hard time stopping projectiles since you have to rely on hitting them with the 2-frame inner sourspot on his leg.

Just due to its ability to wall a lot of characters out (in combination with PK Fire and Zair) I'd argue moving Lucas's fair from C → B.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Oh, I had no idea the pikmin aerials had the luma effect. The move being disjointed probably does more harm than good when it comes to use in an air or neutral state. And based on that description, his aerials must be incapable of intercepting recoveries with a hitbox. I wish more people played Olimar so I had a better understanding of how bad his character can be.

Speaking of Luma, I think Rosalina's Fair is rated too highly. Frame 11 startup isn't overwhelmingly slower than most of her moves, but there's no quick frame 3 Luma attack to cover it, and neither her nor Luma's attacks are particularly powerful for killing or damage. Plus is the slowest of her aerials in terms of both landing lag and use during an extended air time. The range on both Fairs also only extends outward about as much as Luma's Jab 1, not a lot by her standards. Seems like C to me.

Now I am a huge user of Rosas fair so i can assure you hers is better than the majority of C. I don't have the data in front of me, however Fair is a great off stage tool to mixup between bair and dair. Down throw combos into it at lower percentage, and despite its landing lag, it always applies pressure to the opponent.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so final update for the F-Air List is as followed:

Spoiler: Final F-Air

TL;DR:
C -> B
B -> D

And now we will be moving on to Down-Air Discussion. A preliminary list will come out in a day or two.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Ok so final update for the F-Air List is as followed:

Spoiler: Final F-Air

View attachment 110677

TL;DR:
C -> B
B -> D

And now we will be moving on to Down-Air Discussion. A preliminary list will come out in a day or two.

Edit:Oops, just realized you posted the wrong list, never mind then.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Winter, I'm fairly sure some criticism of the list would be appreciated, instead of just saying it's terrible...
Anyway, I just arrived here, hello!
Mario's Nair in that list is rated as better than Luigi's, or is the list not ordered?

 

[adom4]

Ok so final update for the F-Air List is as followed:

Spoiler: Final F-Air

View attachment 110677

TL;DR:
C -> B
B -> D

And now we will be moving on to Down-Air Discussion. A preliminary list will come out in a day or two.

That's the Neutral air tier list lol.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Winter, I'm fairly sure some criticism of the list would be appreciated, instead of just saying it's terrible...
Anyway, I just arrived here, hello!
Mario's Nair in that list is rated as better than Luigi's, or is the list not ordered?

I think it isn't ordered.

 

[FamilyTeam]

That's the Neutral air tier list lol.

Indeed... It's why I'm, right now, kinda confused as to why the title reads "Forward Air"

 

[Funbot28]

Oh srry, I had my list made on my other computer, will fix it soon.

also FamilyTeam , the list is not ordered within the tiers.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Predictions for the Dair tier list
Meta Knight for S Tier
Literally, this is such a key move for Meta Knight. When not trying to get kills with some small strings to a shuttle loop or a spaced F Smash, this is the move in neutral. Its fast, and he just jumps around and throws it out if spaced right. Literally, one of his most important tools, and one that should be treated as such.
Cloud for S Tier
We all know this move. The auto cancel windows make this move so safe to land with, especially coupled with its huge hitbox. It also spikes, which is neat. Easily one of the most dominant tools a cloud has.

 

[JosePollo]

Lucas:

Spoiler: DAIR

• Active 10-12, 18-20, 26-28, 34-35
  • Has good start-up for a down air and a good amount of active frames, which makes it decent as an anti-juggling tool vs. non-disjointed attacks, but since it's not a constant hitbox it's still easy to hit Lucas between hits. Loses outright to disjointed attacks with greater range (namely, swordsmen)
  • Does not spike until the last hit, effectively making it a frame 34 spike. That's Ganondorf down-b spike tier. JK Ganon's down b spike is frame 16.
• Max. damage output of 15.5% (3.5, 3.5, 3.5, 5.0)
• Due to the angle and knockback of the first three hits, it has a hard time connecting all hits together if Lucas has any downward or lateral movement during the execution.
• Final hit has a sourspot (upper hitbox) and, at high percentages, the first three hits will put the opponent in position to get hit by the sourspot instead of the spike (bottom) hitbox.
• The spike hitbox itself is actually rather weak. 5.0% damage, 10 BKB, 110 KBG. Most dairs can easily close out a stock at 50% without any chance of the opponent being able to act after getting hit. Lucas's dair spike doesn't outright kill until over 100%. And it doesn't spike until frame 34.
• Has some decent usage on-stage:
  • Auto-cancels from a full hop, so it can be a decent tool for poking shields, especially since Lucas's air mobility allows him to keep his opponent guessing where he's going to land afterwards.
  • The final hit can lock opponents after a footstool as long as their percentage isn't high enough to get the ground spike. Again, though, only the final hit. All the other hits pop the opponent back up, so dair locking can be a bit tricky timing-wise.
  • A grounded spike can lead into a footstool or any other aerial, guaranteed. If the opponent mashes out an air dodge or an aerial, up smash can easily close out a stock.
• Aside form the obvious dair off-stage to edge guard (though, why would you dair when bair is available), dair can also be used at the ledge to hit recoveries with weak ledge magnets, due to how far under the stage the last hit can reach. Lucas's short hop is 34 frames, making it easy to time the last hit on the ledge when trying to catch, say, Rosalina's or Falcon's recovery. Can also 2-frame any ledge grab.

TL;DR: rather fast for a down air, but doesn't link together well and each hit only does a small amount of damage. Can be used as an anti-juggle, but is still easily beat out due to the periods of inactivity between each hit; cannot out-range swords/most other disjoints. Has decent usage on-stage, but is still easy to avoid for most short characters/anyone who has match-up experience. Does not spike until the last hit. I'd put his dair at a rather generous C.

 

[Ninety]

Yeah, Robin's dair is easily D. FAF is atrocious (60), autocancel window is awkward (rising fullhop I think?) and it isn't that strong or large. Missed chance for an actual landing option.

 

[Lorde]

Bayonetta's dair is lol. the landing hitbox has more bkb and kgb than bowser's fsmash and kills ridiculously early onstage. the stall-then-fall part of the move is still good and is the best stall-then-fall dair imo. the meteor smash is great for edgeguarding, since Bayo can still easily make it back to the stage after using it. the start up on the falling part of the move is awful, though, and the landing lag is bad (28 frame iirc). However, it's tied with Game and Watch's as the lowest frames of landing lag for the stall-then-fall dairs. i'd say it's worthy of A tier

One of the rare occasions where one of her moves isn't terrible, Zelda's dair is surprisingly good. it has pretty good range for such a powerful meteor smash and it's super easy to sweetspot. Like, you should basically always be sweetspotting this move because it's so easy. It autocancels in a shorthop, and its landing lag is okay-ish (18 frames). Sour dair sets up into footstool shenanigans (onstage and offstage), jab lock, etc. Honestly, I firmly this is one of the best meteor smashes in the game. It's not on the level of Cloud's dair, but it's still good. I'd say it also deserves A tier

Some dairs that deserve S tier are

 

[kendikong]

Contenders for worst dair imo,

Mac, Roy, Wii fit, Ike, Zard, robin, megaman?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

D-air is easily S.
Combos into alot of moves, very safe, great for whittling down shields, very low lag, event range, sets up for possible kill confirms with fair. This move is extremely good at everything, but killing.

Good reward, though somewhat high risk, not the strongest meteor, but coupled with its ability to easily footstool after makes up for it. Has some good setups as well. Might not be S ranked, but definitely A

Also agree with above on Zelda's being A, though I am not exactly sure of how Mewtwos is S

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Sheik and ZSS are also good contenders for worst Dair, though I won't fault anybody for forgetting they have Dairs at all. Olimar as well. If a Dair can't intercept recoveries with hitboxes or be used to challenge juggles, then there's not much else for it. It can autocancel on shorthop, but there's no point if every other aerial can as well that cover directions around you. Olimar does have decent aerials though. Bair is an honestly good kill move that's notably safe on block. Uair can kill too, and serves as a throw combo followup. But they both suffer immensely from item priority.

One really good Dair that I fear might get missed is Kirby. The move is an integral part of Kirby's combo game, with landing lag dropping to ~13 when the landing hit connects. You can pull off a lot of what Fox can with his, but Kirby's slower falling helps with anticipating which direction they get spat out at that moment. And Hup Cancelling is a good mindgame.

 

[L9999]

snip.

may be situational, but it can be used. Many Sheik's pull it out on purpose. On the subject of contender for worst Dair:
Dair is complete garbage. Garbage startup, garbage endlag, garbage range, weak, and atrocious landing lag. I know it can autocancel at the very startup, but it's with no hitbox and at best it's a mindgame for stupid people. This one belongs in E tier.

 

[Lorde]

Mewtwo's dair is basically Zelda's dair, except the sweetspot on Mewtwo's lingers for 4 frames while Zelda's is only out for 1 frame. Like, both dairs come out on frame 14, autocancel in a short hop, have the same amount of landing lag (18 frames), and nearly the same autocancelling windows and FAF. The only real differences are that Zelda's has a sourspot that replaces the sweetspot and lingers for a while, and that they have different bkb/kbg values (30/65 for Zelda's, 10/100 for Mewtwo's). The hitboxes are similar, but Mewtwo's is larger than Zelda's sweetspot (sourspot is much larger than Mewtwo's).

I guess Mewtwo's could be A tier or whatever, but I just wanted to say that it's a good move.

I also forgot to mention that has a good dair