Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Routa]

Anyways about Brawler and his Dair.

His Dair is really strong kill tool and pretty much his best/most reliable way to kill when forced to use 1111. It deals decent amount of damage (13) and comes out on frame 16. If I remember correctly it is safe on shield if correctly spaced. It has too much going for itself to be in D tier.

But then again I'm not a Brawler expert so I'm sure mah bois @BigLord (aka Master of Balls) and @Yikarur are willing to give you more information regarding to Brawler's moves.

 

[Trifroze]

Judging moves in a vacuum is ultimately pointless.

Using ZSS' nair as an example, one of its best properties is that it combos into things so well because ZSS is fast, jumps quickly and has a lot of range to chase the opponent after they've been hit by nair. What does it even mean to put a move like this into a vacuum? How well can the vacuum moveset follow up on hits? What's the movement speed of a vacuum? There are no answers because there is no moveset or movement speed in a vacuum. The utility of a move depends on what the rest of the character's moveset is like and how their other attributes are tuned.

I was the creator of the original topic trying to rank moves in this same way. I was far more inexperienced than now and thought it'd be interesting to compare moves like this, but there's nothing of competitive importance to gain by acknowledging that Falcon's uair is better than Zero Suit's if jump height, air mobility and what you can combo one into aren't considered, or that Robin's dthrow is better than any other dthrow in the game if jump squat and mobility aren't factors.

The topic will probably go on regardless, just sort of pleading for people to save their time for something better.

 

[Funbot28]

Judging moves in a vacuum is ultimately pointless.

Using ZSS' nair as an example, one of its best properties is that it combos into things so well because ZSS is fast, jumps quickly and has a lot of range to chase the opponent after they've been hit by nair. What does it even mean to put a move like this into a vacuum? How well can the vacuum moveset follow up on hits? What's the movement speed of a vacuum? There are no answers because there is no moveset or movement speed in a vacuum. The utility of a move depends on what the rest of the character's moveset is like and how their other attributes are tuned.

I was the creator of the original topic trying to rank moves in this same way. I was far more inexperienced than now and thought it'd be interesting to compare moves like this, but there's nothing of competitive importance to gain by acknowledging that Falcon's uair is better than Zero Suit's if jump height, air mobility and what you can combo one into aren't considered, or that Robin's dthrow is better than any other dthrow in the game if jump squat and mobility aren't factors.

The topic will probably go on regardless, just sort of pleading for people to save their time for something better.

Well I think its a good representation of who has the better specific tools in the game, and one the lists of moves are completed, then comparing where each characters stands in each list can arguably give a good representation on their viability. Factoring in things like follow-ups and the characters entire moveset for ranking one move starts to become to broad and subjective to an extent.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Corrin's has massive disjoint (I think the most disjointed dair? It's enough to beat antiairs like Rosa/Mario usmash)

It can Dair trade with the moves Bowser's Dair can like Ryu's Shoryuken. Disjoint is good for a move you don't need to time around two or three active frames. Just plan to be in the opponent's trajectory. Though the Corrin Dair trade isn't quite strong enough to kill a Ryu when you refresh his Up B, maybe a Roy.

Anyways about Brawler and his Dair.

His Dair is really strong kill tool and pretty much his best/most reliable way to kill when forced to use 1111. It deals decent amount of damage (13) and comes out on frame 16. If I remember correctly it is safe on shield if correctly spaced. It has too much going for itself to be in D tier.

Safe on shield? No no no no. There's no spacing for a move that only reaches as far forward as Nair. You're putting yourself in any character's shieldgrab range. The absolute best you could get in block advantage is -10 OoS, which ties with his Fair for worst aerial on block. But at least Fair can be spaced. Dair's high point is it's the only Brawler aerial capable of killing an opponent offstage. Even a Bair can fail at the ledge as high as 150%. Dair has just one active meteor frame, but no sourspot on that frame (the 70 angle only connects on grounded targets). For Brawler it's an essential move without customs for sure, but it's effectiveness compared with other Dairs is a tough sell. Palutena and Marth have one active meteor frame to work with too and those moves are terrible. Falcon's got three, so if his spacing was good but timing was off by a marginal amount, he can still manage the meteor. Brawler is all timing. And if your Up B of choice is Helicopter Kick, starting Dair below the ledge's height can potentially SD. I think placement in D tier is fair.

 

[Routa]

Ah so my memory was playing tricks with mii heh. I remember there being a discussion in Mii chat about Dair and it being safeish on shield, but oh well.

Anyways it is its sourspot that makes it good/decent. You shouldn't use it for the meteor (unless you have PP. in that case you can follow up on-stage meteor with PP for the kill). Still looking at the characters in D tier I cannot see his Dair being on the same tier, due to it having more ulity than thous in D tier. I'm not saying it should be in in B tier, but I think it is as useful as the moves listed in C tier. Remember that C is generally viewed as mid tier.

 

[adom4]

Nominating 's Dair to at least B tier, it's an amazing setup tool onstage, great hitbox, AC's in a short hop, does 15% & in general it's a really underrated move.
Also supporting moving 's Dair to E tier, that move is utterly useless & might actually be worse than Mac's Dair, at least that one can jab lock.

 

[Lavani]

It can Dair trade with the moves Bowser's Dair can like Ryu's Shoryuken. Disjoint is good for a move you don't need to time around two or three active frames. Just plan to be in the opponent's trajectory. Though the Corrin Dair trade isn't quite strong enough to kill a Ryu when you refresh his Up B, maybe a Roy.

It trades with Shoryuken if you're above Ryu's (intangible) arm, it beats it out if you're above his head.

You're right about it being a lot worse in trade scenarios though. Like I said, G&W/Corrin are probably more deserving of C.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit's Dair should be A or maybe even S. Less because it's great at doing Dair things, it's alright at challenging Uairs and the spike hitbox is small, but because it's basically a good Fair but below the character. Horizontal reach isn't the best but good frame data and great damage output, does 10% by itself and combos into other aerials, and the unique hitbox placement means it's good at things like catching rolls, challenging horizontal moves, being used while doing a full jump against a standing opponent, and it's a great footstool option against most characters.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so huge update coming through:

Spoiler: Down-AIr

TL;DR:
S -> A
A -> B
() B -> A
B -> A
A -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
D -> B
C -> B
C -> B
D -> C
D -> C
B -> C
C -> D
C -> D
C -> D
C -> D
D -> C
C -> D
E -> D

 

[Routa]

There are stuff I disagree with (Brawler's fully functional Dair being in the same tier as Gunner's makes my blood boil and Swordspider's Dair not being in the same tier as the likes of Pikachu's Dair), but eh. I presume wii (bad pun is bad) will be doing Bairs next.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Agreed with all changes. One thing I would change at this point is Villager down to C. Of all Dairs with a meteor effect in the game, this is the only one that cannot be guaranteed by the player at all. It's a random 1 in 3 chance with 2 active frames. All it has over Nair in an edgeguard situation is three more total active hit frames and some disjoint to beat or trade against recovery moves. Other than that it's slower to come out, slower to act out of, and the late hit is always so weak it'll even aid Ganondorf in reaching the ledge. A single turnip hit is also weak enough that it won't ever secure stocks against under-average or better recoveries.

I also agree that Brawler stands out in D tier. I did criticize the attack, but I was also under the assumption that all the terrible Dairs currently in D would join Mac in E, which no longer exists. The bottomline for Brawler is the move works. And there's nothing above average about it. Bottom tier should be reserved for moves that simply don't work with the same consistency or frequency you would expect.

 

[Nemesis561]

I was going to argue bowser jr for B tier but I think C is fine... it's a great combo starter and combos from kart dash at low percents for GREAT damage... but landing with it or throwing it out in neutral is highly punishable... I would say that it's a more critical part of his kit then some others in C tier.

Warios is good at B and maybe could go to A. It has SO MUCH UTILITY. Combos into half waft at mid percents... great gimping tool off stage.. the last hit has great killing power.. also rising dair is good at the ledge to catch the 2 frame vulnerability

 

[JosePollo]

Agreed with all changes. One thing I would change at this point is Villager down to C. Of all Dairs with a meteor effect in the game, this is the only one that cannot be guaranteed by the player at all. It's a random 1 in 3 chance with 2 active frames. All it has over Nair in an edgeguard situation is three more total active hit frames and some disjoint to beat or trade against recovery moves. Other than that it's slower to come out, slower to act out of, and the late hit is always so weak it'll even aid Ganondorf in reaching the ledge. A single turnip hit is also weak enough that it won't ever secure stocks against under-average or better recoveries.

I also agree that Brawler stands out in D tier. I did criticize the attack, but I was also under the assumption that all the terrible Dairs currently in D would join Mac in E, which no longer exists. The bottomline for Brawler is the move works. And there's nothing above average about it. Bottom tier should be reserved for moves that simply don't work with the same consistency or frequency you would expect.

But villagers dair also effectively keeps him from being juggled by a majority of the cast due to the lingering hitbox, and the auto-cancel window allows it to combo into other things the same way Cloud's dair does. It's literally a discount Cloud's dair, and as such deserves to be where it is. I'd even argue moving it up to A, but B is perfectly fine.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I would argue Lucas's could move a tier up. You have a multihit move dealing up to 15% which can both spike and lead into a jab lock out of a grab. That said, it's not a great tool outside of those uses so I can see why it was placed where it was. Though personally I see it a tier above the likes of Falco, Ike, ROB, Shulk, etc.

 

[JosePollo]

I would argue Lucas's could move a tier up. You have a multihit move dealing up to 15% which can both spike and lead into a jab lock out of a grab. That said, it's not a great tool outside of those uses so I can see why it was placed where it was. Though personally I see it a tier above the likes of Falco, Ike, ROB, Shulk, etc.

It's hard to deal the full damage because the way the move is programmed makes it hard to reliably link all 4 hits. The spike itself doesn't come out until frame 34, is weak, and hitting any other hit ruins the jab lock possiblity. It can do good things, for sure, but rarely can it do any of them exceptionally well.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Nothing you said was wrong, but this is a tier list. We do not rate Ryu low because he is hard to use and get the most out of. We rate him high because of the potential and possibilities associated with the character, even if not much has been done yet.

Sure the full damage is hard to come by, but even if you don't do the full 15%, you're still doing a fraction of that, and that's not a bad number. Maybe the spike does come out late, but there are hits that link into it, no? And sure, the jab-lock can be ruined, but I've also seen players hit it with amazing consistency, and get a lot out of it.

I'm not arguing that Lucas's dair is the Ryu of dairs, but I do think it deserves to be a tier higher. When I look at the characters he's grouped with, I look at their dairs, and I think to myself: "none of these really have the capabilities of this dair".

 

[JosePollo]

I guess in terms of utility you could argue that point. I still don't see it being much higher than C, though.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I'll try to give my best input on the characters I know:

: Though it's easily beaten by shields, this move an amazing punish tool that can beat opponents challenging him from below thanks to his shell invisibility. C is fine by me.

: While it has uses, the slow frame data really kills it along side it's small hitbox and okay damage output. Not to mention if it's cancel while in mid-hits, it can sometimes combo into Up-B. I say bring it down to D.

: Yeah this move is pretty bad, small hitbox with terrible sourspot. Might as well stay in D.

: Solid B for me, good damage, great power and can potentially combo into Up-B from landing.

: Hard Knuckle is very safe move in neutral and edge-guarding so you don't have to worry about getting punished, but the high start-up and small hitbox hold this move back. How bout raising it back C.

: Aside from it being a decent short-hop option out of shield, it has very little use since it's outclassed by Hydrant, Z-drop and even angled-down Power Pellet. Bringing down to D IMO.

: Despite it's high start-up, Shulk's D-air is not that bad for what it is. Containing a decent size hitbox, strong spike and a boatload of damage (especially in Buster), it's not half-bad. Though it is hard to land and a bit risky to use, so C is fair enough.


These are all just my opinion, so please take them with a grain of salt.

 

[Routa]

: Solid B for me, good damage, great power and can potentially combo into Up-B from landing.

At very certain % range it can combo into U-Smash.

 

[epicnights]

I think Link's should be moved up to A tier, for a myriad of reasons.

• Link's down-air does incredible damage, doing 15% on spike, 18% on non-spike sweetspot, and 15% on sourspot.
• Link's down-air has an astounding 51 frames of lingering hitbox–4 frames of 15% spike, 3 frames of 18% sweetspot, and 44 frames of 15% sourspot.
• Link's non-spike hitboxes have an angle of 65, allowing for easy pogo followups at lower percentages.
• Link's down-air autocancels on frame 65, with the last frame of the lingering hitbox on frame 64. That means that down-air autocancels as soon as the hitbox disappears.

Overall, it's a severely overlooked tool by most non-link players due to its 32 frames of landing lag, but has the potential to be used in a multitude of different scenarios.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Johan's argument abour Robin's dair is pretty good, but it's also very situational. The setup only works if you hit your opponent with Arcthunder, and just doing a raw dair is very risky. If you miss, your opponent will have enough time to make a cup of coffee before you can move again. If you fastfall it off-stage without a double jump, you won't be able to recover just because the animation lasts so long. And doing it on-stage is an awful idea considering its crappy autocancel frames and atrocious landing lag.

 

[Routa]

I do agree that Link's Dair is great, but it is the lag and faf in my opinion which keep it from being in A tier. Reward from hitting a Dair is great, but if you miss it... Well you are going to get punished. In laggy and low lvl tournament play you will most likely not get punished from missing it, but then again we are theorycrafting which Dairs are better than others. The commitment(risk)/reward on his Dair is a bit too low in my opinion to deserve a place in A tier. I do think some character deserve to jump a tier or two, but Link isn't one of them.

 

[Crystanium]

Samus' d-air will either hit her opponent to the side or simply do a meteor smash. Either option off stage is good for Samus because her opponent is going to end up in some kind of blast zone. Samus can run, SH, d-air her opponent as well, allowing her to avoid getting punished, should her opponent shield. This can be followed with a Screw Attack, b-air, u-air, or n-air. The last three rely on the opponent being launched a little higher, but the Screw Attack can be immediately followed up.

I honestly think Samus should be above Sheik and ZSS. No way in hell their d-air is better than Samus. Mewtwo's d-air is also telegraphed. It's just too easy to avoid. I think he should be moved down as well. Sonic's d-air is like Sheik's and ZSS' as well. They're left open. Mario's d-air is actually not all that great in my opinion. It's noticeable, it isn't consecutive in that you'll take about three hits, then there's an opening where the opponent can avoid the attack before Mario's last d-air hits. I'm not sure how to feel about Pit's d-air, either. It can be used to hit opponents who roll, but it seems to me that it's hard to land behind your opponent. I've been told it can kill, but I've never been successful with it.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so final update for the Down-Air list is as followed:

Spoiler

TL;DR:
C -> B
D -> C
D -> E

Ok so I guess by now you have probably guessed it but the next round of discussion will be Back-Air. Leave your initial thoughts, and a preliminary list will be out shortly.

 

[Lorde]

This one will probably be the hardest to make a list for since there are so many good bairs.

Bayo's bair is good. It has good range, does 13%, autocancels in a short hop, has only 12 frames of landing lag, and is like +3 on shield perfectly spaced (which is lol). However, it is kinda slow, coming out on frame 11. It's basically ZSS' bair, except Bayo's has a hitbox on her leg and not just on her foot. It's also worth noting that you can chain a bunch of sourspot bairs together, and sweetspot bair can combo into ABK.

Zelda's bair is better than her fair, at least. It comes out earlier (frame 6 vs. frame 9), meaning you can short hop airdodge>bair and get the sweetspot. It's not the greatest move, but it does have its uses. The most important thing to note about it is that dthrow>double jump bair true combos at kill percents if the opponent DIs dthrow in (which they would do to avoid the uair; idk if it's an actual 50/50. BJN39 confirm pls). The ending lag and landing lag are really unfortunate, though, and are what keep the move from being more useful.

A few good bairs are

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's bair is basically a lighting kick. Only the sweetspot is giant and disjointed, is active from frame 14 to 16 and the sourspots don't suck.
Sweetspot is safe on shieldrop when fastfalled (it's -6 on shieldrop, most characters wont make it on time to punish it), in practice sh fastfall bair kinda feels like mks f-smash.
Move has garbage autocancel, meh landing lag and meh faf tho. The move is pretty scary overall tho.

 

[adom4]

Ganondorf's Bair is fantastic and is probably his most important move.
Stupidly powerful even with the sourspot, decent startup at 10 frames, disjointed, great auto cancel (short hop), safe on shield even with the landing lag when spaced, ends very quickly in the air (FAF 36) & did i mention how ****ing strong this move is?

The bad things are while the landing lag isn't horrible it's still nothing to write home about at 19 frames & it can be awkward spacing the move vs shorter characters.
Despite that, it's one of his best move and probably his most important one as it's his main spacing tool against most characters.

 

[Mr. Johan]

The commanding power of Robin Bair can't be understated.

Frame 9 move with barely any noticeable startup animation to it, it's solid, downward hitbox angle is perfect for RARing characters with, the hitbox itself is enormous, autocancels out of shorthop, weak hit prevents spotdodges from beating it, the weak hit can combo into another Bair or a Uair, and the thing still kills at 105 near center stage.

It's only big weakness, losing the hitbox after a shield, barely matters because the 15%, electric hitstun hit is keeping them in shield until the SH's complete, and sometimes even through the landing lag for some characters that can't burst out in time.

Even Bronze Bair is large enough to keep things at bay until the Levin Sword comes back.

Just an incredible move all around.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's Bair: Frame 7, large disjoint, auto-cancels out of a shorthop, 14% damage throughout the whole move, kills very well, pretty safe on shield between the damage and knockback when spaced. Technically hits slightly in front of him as well. Landing lag of 19 but you're almost never going to run into that. IIRC it has a few (somewhat awkward) situations at low %s where it combos into other moves as well. Can be combo'd into out of throws at lower percents and in early % footstool combos.

Can't be used multiple times in one jump really, not very good at combo breaking... does pretty much everything else. Another way to put it: it has the same knockback angle and knockback base + growth as Ike's Fair, while dealing 1% more damage making it a better killing move than his Fair while also coming out faster (almost half the time). Fair beats it in range and is easier to land out of a throw combo, that's about it. Landing Lag, Auto-Cancel, and Active Frames are all within 1 frame of each other.

Another comparison: Robin's Levin Bair is 15% damage, 40 BKB, 93 KBG, frame 9. Ike's is 14%, 30 BKB, 100 KBG, frame 7. Extremely comparable in damage and killing power without be limited by uses (technically there is a point where Ike's is stronger than Robin's, but I think in both cases that's well pass reasonable killing percents so doesn't matter).

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

It's only big weakness, losing the hitbox after a shield, barely matters because the 15%, electric hitstun hit is keeping them in shield until the SH's complete, and sometimes even through the landing lag for some characters that can't burst out in time.

Electric...what? Electric moves have a hitlag modifier. And as of patch 1.11 now behave like any other attack with the same damage in terms of shieldstun. With the old Brawl shields, electric moves and anything with a hitlag modifier (hello Marth, Roy, Ryu) were less safe since the defender did not suffer as much shield hitlag in accordance with the attacker. Then they fixed it, and the moves became normal. No more unfair punishment for landing tippers on block, ZSS Nair, Pikachu Dair, Ryu's everything, and Levin Swords

 

[BJN39]

Zelda's BAir does have more possible utility than FAir. There's SHAD BAir (not possible w/FAir) which works as a pseudo-read to get the LK. BAir is also the one that can be used after Dthrow. BAir should be guaranteed at low percent out of Dthrow, and of course the airdodge read KOs at like, 95 center stage.

The thing that is obviously a huge crutch for the move is that the sweetspot is tiny. It's actually so small that even when you learn to correctly space it (contrary to popular belief it doesn't work if even you're inside of them like Brawl LKs did) it could still whiff due to the far-too-common occurence of the target's hurtbox not being on the Z-axis enough to land the sweet-spot. THAT is how small it is.

The sour-spots have no impressive range, and you'll regret it when you hit with it. So puny damage for such a laggy move (and 8/9F of hitstun at 0%...that's completely terrible.) basically there's absolutely no mercy should you not land the sweet-spot of either LK.

It has a mountain of endlag and cannot be used unless you're landing almost immediately after the hitframes though. The landing lag is not Falcon FAir-tier, but it is disappointing.

On the bright side, BAir is frame 6 and BAir's sweet-spot kills ~5% sooner than FAir's. (their KB stats don't match) Against Mario with correct DI, it KOs at ~90-95 center of FD. The KO power cannot be entirely ignored, as it is among--if not the strongest BAir in SSB4. (There may be something I'm forgetting off the top of my head ofc) as I will reiterate though, the sweetspot is frustratingly small and inconsistent.

Other minor differences between FAir/BAir that can be noted:
- BAir has 2F more landing lag
- BAir has 1 less frame of sour-spot hit duration (4F vs FAir's 5F)
- BAir hits 3F sooner, but both moves have a FAF of 53, which means that BAir has a few frames more endlag.
- BAir's auto cancels are worse: 1-2, 52> versus FAir's 1-3, 50>. Note that both are pretty terrible,
So the difference is negligible.
- BAir uses angle specifiers on all hitboxes to hit only backwards. (and FAir does not) This is why if you hit with Zelda's hip on BAir, they will always be hit the opposite direction she's facing, while on FAir, the sourspot located at her hip can hit either direction.

---

My conclusion would be that Zelda's BAir is in a middle or mid-lower tier, (~B/C depending on how the rest of the list rolls out) but not at the bottom by any means.

 

[Airpoizon]

Marth/Roy/Lucinas back airs all are very good, they turn themselves around, which can be useful depending on how you want to approach of choose what to attack them with. Marth and Roy both do a good 12% damage, and do 9% on sour spot. Lucina does 11%. I'm not sure about Marth, but Roy can jab lock/reset with Bair at low percents. This lets you get a free F-smash. All three of their moves kill, making Bair a great move for all of them I'd put them in low B.

 

[Lavani]

should be A. 15% with both RosaLuma hits, massive range, large disjoint, safe on shield even without Luma, can RAR to make Luma reach extremely far, and can lunar land to make Luma sweep below the ledge and catch low recoveries/2frames (fatal to a good chunk of characters due to the horizontal angle) or to combo into a dash grab onstage.

Downsides are that it extends her hurtbox substantially and for a long duration, Luma's own hurtbox ends up rather oddly stretched as well, the FAF is pretty bleh, and kill power outside of edgeguard scenarios is just "serviceable". Most of that is offset with proper spacing and the scenarios the move would be used in, though.

 

[kendikong]

Zard's bair is his best aerial and his best kill option. Can Kill as low as 50 percent near the ledge.

It has massive disjoint and reach, outranging pretty much every smash attack or aerial. That mario at 50 percent charging an usmash near the ledge hoping to catch a ledge roll will die to a jump over, fast fall bair instead.

Not to mention, it's pretty much safe on shield. A fast aerial smash attack that's safe on shield? Sounds op. Well, only thing keeping it from being A tier would be zard's slow air mobility.

I would say B tier for Zard bair.

 

[Routa]

Swordspider pretty much has slightly weaker version of Ike's Bair (bkb is lower, far less reach and comes 1 frame later). It is still really good Bair. It's main use is for killing. There is nothing speacial to talk about it. I would say it is average.

Brawler's Bair is decent. It is mainly used for spacing and getting jab locks by sliding people off from the plathforms. Mid lvl Bair overall.

Gunner's Bair is... Decent? It is very rarely used. Only in very specific situation you want to use it (when people are almost behind you). The hitbox is weird and it isn't that powerful. Mid/low tier move.

Sorry for very short explanation, but I'm very tired so I just put very short answers. They are all average tbh.

 

[Furret24]

Game and Watch has a pretty great bair. Good disjoint, range and multihitting properties (giving it a long lasting hitbox) make it very good for edgeguarding, and combos (such as using it to wall of pain). It's also fairly safe on shield, making it one of his options to use when spacing, approaching, and in neutral. It's frame data is meh (frame 10 startup, moderate landing lag, and a poor autocancel window it a little) and the damage output on the move could be better, but it's strengths definitely make up for it. Definitely one of G&W's best moves, and definitely worthy of atleast B tier.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Swordspider pretty much has slightly weaker version of Ike's Bair (bkb is lower, far less reach and comes 1 frame later). It is still really good Bair. It's main use is for killing. There is nothing speacial to talk about it. I would say it is average.

Brawler's Bair is decent. It is mainly used for spacing and getting jab locks by sliding people off from the plathforms. Mid lvl Bair overall.

Gunner's Bair is... Decent? It is very rarely used. Only in very specific situation you want to use it (when people are almost behind you). The hitbox is weird and it isn't that powerful. Mid/low tier move.

Sorry for very short explanation, but I'm very tired so I just put very short answers. They are all average tbh.

The reason why Gunner's bair doesn't get used as much is because Gunner's fair is much better. Gunner's bair is a good move in the neutral since it is safe on shield when spaced properly, and it has a good disjoint. It also jab locks at low percents, and it has a chance of tripping an opponent. At mid to high percents bair and nair can set up tech chases.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

back air is an easy A material. Not only is it a get away from me tool that can help benefit more campy Sonics, but it can be great for edgeguarding horizontally. It's a great kill option at the ledge and deals a good amount of damage.

Back Air is one of her best moves. It can help her recover, and it is an amazing spacing and offstage tool. This is also A material, or at the VERY UNLIKELY LEAST top of B

This is one I believe is S Rank. Its again, imo, one of her best moves. It has great power, and like the dozens of back airs, are a great off stage and spacing toool.

I am really bad at explaining.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Honestly the entire Bair tier list should just be an S/A/B/Little Mac tier. The worst any non-Mac Bair can get is just by being "only" marginally decent. Olimar's Bair has range, Lucas's Bair is a spike, Zelda's Bair kills like no other, etc.

It's literally just trying to discern the 10/10s from the 9/10s from the 8/10s when Bairs are concerned.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Bair has to be considered heavily for S rank, or at least A rank. This move is one of the most powerful tools in Villager's keep away toybox.They are going to use it to wall out approaches, fish for kills, or edgeguard. It is such a central and strong tool in their kit. It is basically a better fair in many situations, which helps the move a lot.

Bair is a good contender for A rank. Bair is one of his most reliable tools for damage racking alongside Fair. It is an insanely good spacing tool. It hits like a truck. It is his third best kill move (True Shoryu and Dair are better due to kill confirms). It is a great tool in his kit.

God, there are so many good bairs.