Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Ffamran]

Two uses in a short hop air time with the second coming out with just a frame or two left of air time with easy, consistent buffering just like DK. It's good, safe shield pressure. Diddy trades DK's moderate killing power and active frames for less landing lag. That lower landing lag gets it past the drop shield > dash grab which threatens any DK that fails to spot dodge in time against practiced players, but I would still give it to DK in the end.

My only gripe with DK's Bair is the first, rising Bair can be crouched under by everybody except Dedede and I guess Ganondorf depending on spacing, and being shorter than Mario is generally good enough without crouching. To be fair most of the Bairs in this game won't strike grounded targets when performed in a way that autocancels, so maybe we need to re-evaluate the worth of these AC windows if it only means covering targets at platform height. If an aerial can reach that low when rising, that makes it an OoS option.

Mmm... Would that still justify Diddy's being in S-tier, though when other Bairs like say, Palutena or Villager's exists? Palutena's got shorter range, but invincibility allows her to challenge easily and Villager's got one of the stronger pressure aerials with Bair and Fair which I'd say is shared with Mega Man's Nair through the fact they're projectiles that are used for zoning rather than KO'ing which Villager's Bair and Fair can do or comboing... I'm starting to feel like all the characters in A-tier could make a claim for or move up to S-tier. Everything else is sorting the rest of the bunch...

For DK, while I do think his Bair is really good, the issue of DK potentially not having a setups, particularly KO setups, could lower it or if Diddy and DK's Bair are the "standard" for S-tier Bairs, then characters with "just as good" Bairs like say, Dr. Mario, Robin, or ZSS should be in S-tier which is where ZSS started in...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Mmm... Would that still justify Diddy's being in S-tier, though when other Bairs like say, Palutena or Villager's exists? Palutena's got shorter range, but invincibility allows her to challenge easily and Villager's got one of the stronger pressure aerials with Bair and Fair which I'd say is shared with Mega Man's Nair through the fact they're projectiles that are used for zoning rather than KO'ing which Villager's Bair and Fair can do or comboing... I'm starting to feel like all the characters in A-tier could make a claim for or move up to S-tier. Everything else is sorting the rest of the bunch...

For DK, while I do think his Bair is really good, the issue of DK potentially not having a setups, particularly KO setups, could lower it or if Diddy and DK's Bair are the "standard" for S-tier Bairs, then characters with "just as good" Bairs like say, Dr. Mario, Robin, or ZSS should be in S-tier which is where ZSS started in...

I actually would not label Doc, Robin or ZSS just as good. Doc's lower jump height makes two uses in a short hop impossible unlike Mario. If Mario Bairs and is blocked, the second bair and air speed for drifting back will cover him from block punishes before a second Bair comes out before he lands. Doc has no such protection, and his increased landing lag completely nullifies the extra shieldstun his higher damage delivers as far as being safe on block. The increased damage also increases kill potential, but Doc's reduced recovery height makes offstage delivery even less flexible for that. The KO power lags even behind DK, who I would rate as average. If you had to sit me down and pick which I think is better, I'd say Mario, but the harder question is whether Mario's is so much better he deserves ascension to S. It certainly depends on whether you believe Diddy's is an S since they're pretty similar. And both moves are definitely proven to work well in high level play.

Robin's has KO potential that surpasses Ike's by a few % at the ledge. But it's hitbox is simply not as reliably large as the arcs you get from Uair and Fair. When used to SHAC, it will swing over short grounded targets and under targets on platforms depending on spacing. And the hitbox shrinks further on the bronze version. Ike doesn't have these issues with such a larger hitbox. That bronze version not being able to kill or hit is a big deal when Fair and Uair are still valuable in that state for followups and combos. Finally, Ike's better speed stats makes his move good for further pressure on hit, Robin's is really just meant to add on to successful Elfire and Arcthunder, rather than for neutral. We're all agreed that Ike deserves to be higher, but I'm willing to argue that Robin's needs to step down as Ike takes his place. Sonic's needs to step down too for reasons mentioned. The kill potential is still good on him, just behind ZSS, but for those hung up on it being a spin dash followup, remember that this followup will always take the victim further from the horizontal blaztzone by design before Bair connects, making it only kill at precise ranges depending on where you've got them. And if they've blocked spin dash (they should) forget it.

ZSS I think is on the better edge of A for sure. It's so ludicrously safe when landing. The only major issue I have is its small hitbox warranting the user to actually be precise unlike many other Bairs. Palutena and Villager I also think are well placed, though it certainly depends on how much you value an autoguard aerial or projectile attack. Villager's Bair has a surprising amount of KO power at point blank, higher than Cloud's even, who's just above average. And Palutenas makes for easier edgeguarding of hitbox recoveries than even sword users, but it will swing and miss grounded targets on SHAC, similar to her Fair but more often.

Also, I have to ask about your username. FF12?

 

[Ffamran]

I actually would not label Doc, Robin or ZSS just as good. Doc's lower jump height makes two uses in a short hop impossible unlike Mario. If Mario Bairs and is blocked, the second bair and air speed for drifting back will cover him from block punishes before a second Bair comes out before he lands. Doc has no such protection, and his increased landing lag completely nullifies the extra shieldstun his higher damage delivers as far as being safe on block. The increased damage also increases kill potential, but Doc's reduced recovery height makes offstage delivery even less flexible for that. The KO power lags even behind DK, who I would rate as average. If you had to sit me down and pick which I think is better, I'd say Mario, but the harder question is whether Mario's is so much better he deserves ascension to S. It certainly depends on whether you believe Diddy's is an S since they're pretty similar. And both moves are definitely proven to work well in high level play.

Robin's has KO potential that surpasses Ike's by a few % at the ledge. But it's hitbox is simply not as reliably large as the arcs you get from Uair and Fair. When used to SHAC, it will swing over short grounded targets and under targets on platforms depending on spacing. And the hitbox shrinks further on the bronze version. Ike doesn't have these issues with such a larger hitbox. That bronze version not being able to kill or hit is a big deal when Fair and Uair are still valuable in that state for followups and combos. Finally, Ike's better speed stats makes his move good for further pressure on hit, Robin's is really just meant to add on to successful Elfire and Arcthunder, rather than for neutral. We're all agreed that Ike deserves to be higher, but I'm willing to argue that Robin's needs to step down as Ike takes his place. Sonic's needs to step down too for reasons mentioned. The kill potential is still good on him, just behind ZSS, but for those hung up on it being a spin dash followup, remember that this followup will always take the victim further from the horizontal blaztzone by design before Bair connects, making it only kill at precise ranges depending on where you've got them. And if they've blocked spin dash (they should) forget it.

ZSS I think is on the better edge of A for sure. It's so ludicrously safe when landing. The only major issue I have is its small hitbox warranting the user to actually be precise unlike many other Bairs. Palutena and Villager I also think are well placed, though it certainly depends on how much you value an autoguard aerial or projectile attack. Villager's Bair has a surprising amount of KO power at point blank, higher than Cloud's even, who's just above average. And Palutenas makes for easier edgeguarding of hitbox recoveries than even sword users, but it will swing and miss grounded targets on SHAC, similar to her Fair but more often.

Doc's lower hop does allow him to use his Bair at a lower height and catch shorter characters, though. DK's Bair also has 10 more base and 2 more growth which probably edges it out despite the 0.44% damage difference.

My question is if Diddy and DK's Bair are considered S-tier while not being that spectacular or that much better compared to some of the A-tier Bairs, then shouldn't the A-tier Bairs be in S-tier as well? It's why I asked a couple posts back if all characters should move up a tier and E-tier be eliminated leaving D-tier only for Little Mac. Bairs are generally really good moves -- it's like the opposite to Dair where almost all Dairs are underwhelming because they're all tuned to be slow, generic spikes leaving the other ones to be that damn better -- which creates a problem where you could argue most of them are good or at worst average. Everything after that is meticulously placing Bairs on which is slightly better or worse over the other knowing that the easy way is to just dump about 80% of them into average, have 17% be good, S-tier, and 2.99999% below-average, Little Mac at low, at D-tier, and call it a day.

ZSS's small hitbox is probably there considering her Bair's range. This is shared with Bayonetta? -- hers is disjointed -- and Samus. In my crappy test I did a while back, I had Samus and ZSS clocked at 4 units on Mushroomy Kingdom - 1 block on Mushroomy Kingdom being made up of 3 units --, Captain Falcon, Luigi, and Mario at 3, and Falco and Fox at 2. For a melee Bair, that's pretty good range which has to get countered by a small hitbox and a hitbox that's knee down instead of thigh down unlike Bayonetta and Samus. For Bay and Sam, their Bairs do trade in speed for a better hitboxes and power. Still, all three have good range with their Bair. So, you have to be precise with them which I think is something you should be doing with all characters, but in the case of ZSS, you also have that greater range.

Also, I have to ask about your username. FF12?

I am the leading man.

 

[Funbot28]

Hmm this raises an interesting question then, do others feel that the current A tier Bairs are at the same caliber as the current S ranks? If so, then I might consider moving everyone up a tier (excluding the S ranks) to fit this criteria. Thoughts?

 

[Routa]

Hmm this raises an interesting question then, do others feel that the current A tier Bairs are at the same caliber as the current S ranks? If so, then I might consider moving everyone up a tier (excluding the S ranks) to fit this criteria. Thoughts?

I think they could be merged. But I don't think we need to move everyone up a tier. Just drop S tier Bairs into A tier. A is usually considered to be the top tier while S is considered to be like best of the best (usually significantly better than others or broken).

 

[Lavani]

Hmm this raises an interesting question then, do others feel that the current A tier Bairs are at the same caliber as the current S ranks?

probably are

the others, no.

edit: maybe Mario too. I agree with Zapp that it should be ranked with Diddy's, and I'm not entirely sure if Diddy should be S, but I have no real argument for it to drop either.

---

Changes I'd make to the current list:
A -> S
A -> S
Both are really strong, really safe, far-reaching, and have multiple setups into them (and off of them at lower percents iirc) as well as being something you can throw out rather safely and are highly threatening in edgeguard scenarios.

A -> B
A -> B
See Zapp's post.

B -> C~D
Really awkward move. Tiny sweetspot, worthless sourspot, useless for controlling space, horrid to land with. Compare to Charizard bair which has huge range, huge disjoint, a massive sweetspot that you have to actually try to miss with (and even if you do the sourspot still hurts), about identical kill power, low aerial endlag, safe on shield, and is currently in the same tier. If it weren't for SHAD bair and dthrow>bair on DI away I'd say Zelda's bair is an automatic D, but those qualities make C arguable.

B -> C
Might be Puff's best move, but it's still not really anything special. No longer disjointed like in previous games, pretty slow to start at frame 12, needs to be in the opponent's face for the high KB sweetspot which is unsafe even with Jiggs' air speed, angle is pretty diagonal, etc.

B -> C
I don't really know why this is here, its kill power is just decent, hitbox isn't anything to write home about, and it's laggy af with no setups that I'm aware of.

C -> A~B
C -> B
Already covered in previous posts.

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard bair does not sh autocancel tho. If it did Zard would be actually scary.

 

[Lavani]

Zard bair does not sh autocancel tho. If it did Zard would be actually scary.

Whoops, fixed. Thought bair was frame perfect and fair had leniency, but I got bair/fair confused for fair/nair on that.

 

[Nemesis561]

Good job on this stuff.... you've done pretty well on these lists...

I play wario and bowser jr and I would actually swap them on your lists...

They both have similar frame data and are used similarly in the neutral, but bowser jrs is obviously a disjoint and therefore safer.. also bowser jrs bair is more important for him because his neutral is so lacking... that and jump cancel side B is basically what his neutral consists of... the only thing I would give to wario over bowser jrs is that it more consistently will hit characters with smaller hurtbox pika Kirby etc. Also glad you moved Dededes up a bit that move is pretty good... only problem is the hitbox is kinda wonky and doesn't match the animation

 

[Mr. Johan]

Levin Bair may not cover as much of an arc as Levin Fair and Uair do, but it makes up for it by being faster than both, and getting a hitbox out asap. Bair is about the same size as Fair with 3 frames less startup, and is horizontally longer and faster than Uair.

I don't really see why it's being compared to Fair and Uair in the first place though.

Bair is a kill move that covers low profiles with RAR approaches and has enough active frames to beat out spotdodges, combo into another Bair or Uair, and give Robin an immediate kill confirm from projectiles an Arcfire's distance away. It has clear-cut objectives that Uair and Fair can't cover as quickly.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Levin Bair may not cover as much of an arc as Levin Fair and Uair do, but it makes up for it by being faster than both, and getting a hitbox out asap. Bair is about the same size as Fair with 3 frames less startup, and is horizontally longer and faster than Uair.

I don't really see why it's being compared to Fair and Uair in the first place though.

Bair is a kill move that covers low profiles with RAR approaches and has enough active frames to beat out spotdodges, combo into another Bair or Uair, and give Robin an immediate kill confirm from projectiles an Arcfire's distance away. It has clear-cut objectives that Uair and Fair can't cover as quickly.

I youtube searched Smash 4 Robin to see the merits of his Bair. The first result (since I didn't want to cherry pick something to sweeten my argument) is the recent Dath vs. Mr. R. And I marked all the timestamps of a Robin Bair - none in Game 1. 4:52 (miss), 5:58 (miss), 6:05(hit), 6:49 (miss), 8:51(miss), 9:03(hit. Blocked), 9:22 (hit), 10:04(hit). I will say that 8 Bairs is more than my guess for a high level match (I guessed 5 max, but still nowhere near the 50+ Fairs used for spacing and pressure), but hitting four out of 8 is about what I expected. And all but the first and sixth were used for a simple reason: I'm in the air, he's in the air, I'm not facing him but I should still swing because I'm in range. The first Bair was a SHAC that is spotdodged by Sheik on the ground (looking at your post. Oops). Not surprising for a move that has 7+9 startup, but it was too high to reach her on the ground anyway like I've been saying. The sixth was a landing Bair, and the fact that it was blocked is inconsequential. Robin needs to do something when the opponent is directly under him. There was no kill confirm from arcthunder or fire, but obviously the potential exists, and a Mr. R level sheik is hard to hit with those.

I'm comparing to Fair and Uair because those moves are proven to be great, useful, top level attacks. What in these matches proves Bair's A-teir prowess? All I see is a good kill move that's stronger than most Bairs for killing, but also isn't available for a quarter of a match because bronze. Stronger than most Bairs but has notable Flaws is the very definition of half the existing B tiers. With the others like Kirby and Luigi just being all around average in most relevant respects

Edit: Incidentally, I seem to remember Dath Dairing just once, in Game 3. He missed, but what's odd about how I remember it is it looked like a Bronze Dair. I have to assume that was a missed input.

 

[Ultinarok]

Ike's is easily A tier. Its his fastest aerial, is exceptionally strong, doesn't have much landing lag, has a big disjointed horizontal range and is SoS if spaced correctly I believe. Don't have Kurogane available so I can't give exact frames but yeah its one of the best.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

All I see is a good kill move that's stronger than most Bairs for killing, but also isn't available for a quarter of a match because bronze.

The fact that Levin Sword disappears should NEVER be taken into account when analyzing Robin's moveset. The respawn time is so fast that it's extremely rare for it to have an actual impact on the match.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The fact that Levin Sword disappears should NEVER be taken into account when analyzing Robin's moveset. The respawn time is so fast that it's extremely rare for it to have an actual impact on the match.

It can't not be taken into account. Its an aspect of the move, and we're considering the move as a whole. You can claim is rare to have an impact, but at the end of the day that's still having an impact period. It just has to happen once when it would have been a kill to cost you the game.

 

[Wintermelon43]

probably are

the others, no.

edit: maybe Mario too. I agree with Zapp that it should be ranked with Diddy's, and I'm not entirely sure if Diddy should be S, but I have no real argument for it to drop either.

---

Changes I'd make to the current list:
A -> S
A -> S
Both are really strong, really safe, far-reaching, and have multiple setups into them (and off of them at lower percents iirc) as well as being something you can throw out rather safely and are highly threatening in edgeguard scenarios.

A -> B
A -> B
See Zapp's post.

B -> C~D
Really awkward move. Tiny sweetspot, worthless sourspot, useless for controlling space, horrid to land with. Compare to Charizard bair which has huge range, huge disjoint, a massive sweetspot that you have to actually try to miss with (and even if you do the sourspot still hurts), about identical kill power, low aerial endlag, safe on shield, and is currently in the same tier. If it weren't for SHAD bair and dthrow>bair on DI away I'd say Zelda's bair is an automatic D, but those qualities make C arguable.

B -> C
Might be Puff's best move, but it's still not really anything special. No longer disjointed like in previous games, pretty slow to start at frame 12, needs to be in the opponent's face for the high KB sweetspot which is unsafe even with Jiggs' air speed, angle is pretty diagonal, etc.

B -> C
I don't really know why this is here, its kill power is just decent, hitbox isn't anything to write home about, and it's laggy af with no setups that I'm aware of.

C -> A~B
C -> B
Already covered in previous posts.

lol Jigglypuff's spot is perfect. Startup isn't the best but it doesn't ruin the move at all, it still works great (I havn't ever been screwed over by its startup or anyhing so it can't be much of a factor anyway). It's a pretty important KO tool for Jigglypuff and is great at edgeguarding. The angle doesn't matter really when it is still safe on hit and KOs fine.

And Jigglypuff's best move is nair, not bair.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The fact that Levin Sword disappears should NEVER be taken into account when analyzing Robin's moveset. The respawn time is so fast that it's extremely rare for it to have an actual impact on the match.

Nope sorry, there's no standard set for evaluating all the aspects of the move except those aspects you'd rather we'd not talk about. We don't ignore the possibility of Luma being dead or landing a sourspot on Zelda's Bair or assume Shulk has permanent Buster/Speed/Smash/Cheez-It Art until he no longer needs it. If you want to talk about Robin in the most positive light, there's a subforum for that.

I'd like to weigh in on the tiers to say I do think the division between S and A tier is notable and important enough to keep. And to summarize my own votes for changes to the list:
A->B. A strong kill move with relevant weaknesses mentioned previously that keep it from clinching even a fraction of stocks. At home in B.
A->S. I've decided that I think Diddy's is a definite S, and Mario's is exactly like Diddy's. Extremely safe for pressure and spacing, two uses in a shorthop making block punishes unreasonable. Works OoS for crossups that Nair won't reach. Leads into some nasty combos/strings at a variety of %s that you can't get from Doc's.
A->S Exceptionally safe to fish for kills. Above average kill power.
A->S. Same as Bayonetta on both counts. Annoyingly small hitbox, but gains points for use out of throw to kill.
C->B. Cornerstone of his top-tier edgeguarding game with great range and priority for meeting recoveries and for following up z dropped metal blades. Held back by frustrating ground target-only hitboxes that keep the move from consistently linking on a grounded target. A poor move for neutral with no SHAC, low shieldstun, and bad landing lag. Invaluable for securing stocks and keeping them offstage
A->C. Too unsafe for use in Neutral. Spin Dash followup highly unlikely to kill, and is only 2% better than using Nair instead to better cover DI possibilities. SHAC is too high to hit most grounded targets. Decent offstage, but I don't think that's enough for B.
C->A One of the strongest kill Bairs. SHAC has great hitbox for grounded targets. No immediate weaknesses or shortcomings besides Ike's very low amount of time offstage to use it for intercepting recoveries
B->C. A bad Mario Bair. Absurdly weak for killing, and shares Doc's problem of only one per short hop. Just doesn't stand up to the utility and relevance of fellow Bs like Kirby, G&W, and Luigi
C->D. Way too unsafe to be used in neutral. 8% total damage, bad hitbox for keeping victim to the end, can't kill. Accomplishes nothing that Nair and Fair can't.
B ->C. Not safe to land with and lacks setups. Good SHAC only when spaced with average KO power. Not very remarkable.
B ->A. Haven't brought this up before and not too confident. This is the second strongest Bair for killing, and unlike Zelda, the sweetspot hitbox is ludicrously large, while the sourspot is not awful to land. Yes you're forced to suffer landing lag, and there's no setup into it, but 24 landing lag is pretty small for a move that pushes people that much on block and has that much reach. They have to drop shield and dash for their punish. Assuming this was used just before landing, Charizard can spot dodge incoming dash grabs/attacks after he's been blocked.

After much consideration I'm fine with in B. It's killing power is unrivaled among Bairs and I love the short hop air dodge setup into it. The lack of SHAC is awful, the sweetspot is tiny, and it has a poor track record as an OoS option or Dthrow combo, but it's game changing on hit, even without a kill. And I feel the experienced player with the right reads makes good use of it. I also support remaining in B. It would be a C tier for sure if anybody other than Jigglypuff or Peach was using it. It does lack the exceptional disjoint in Melee and Jiggs hates trading, but the overall range is still comparable. And unlike Nair, you can double jump after SHAC to extend your air time for a safe retreat, crossup, turnaround to switch to Nair/Fair or just swing again at a higher altitude. It's her safest means of clinching a stock without risk besides offstage gimps against bad recoveries.

I'm also wondering how these rankings will go in regard to special moves. Special moves are extremely complex by design compared to normals, and it's hard to rate a solid projectile against an edgeguarding tool, against a kill move, against a recovery move. Aerials are easy to compare. Most bairs are kill options, most Nairs combo break, most Dairs meteor. But you won't have many direct comparisons except for Mario and Luigi fireballs, Fox and Falco blasters, etc. Deciding what moves have more merit and utility to those characters would require absurdly high understanding of the entire roster. And even then I foresee a mess of people just gushing about their mains and being compelled to educate.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think Bair should be in B tier.

It is a kill confirm, grab confirm, jab locks, comes out frame 5, has good landing lag, has a good autocancel window, and it even pops Villager's balloons if you get all the hits. Downside is that it isn't safe on hit unless you get all the hits.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I'm also wondering how these rankings will go in regard to special moves. Special moves are extremely complex by design compared to normals, and it's hard to rate a solid projectile against an edgeguarding tool, against a kill move, against a recovery move. Aerials are easy to compare. Most bairs are kill options, most Nairs combo break, most Dairs meteor. But you won't have many direct comparisons except for Mario and Luigi fireballs, Fox and Falco blasters, etc. Deciding what moves have more merit and utility to those characters would require absurdly high understanding of the entire roster. And even then I foresee a mess of people just gushing about their mains and being compelled to educate.

We're at least capable of distinguishing between what's a good move and what's a bad move, even if we aren't directly comparing the different special attacks. Needle Storm? Good. Monado Arts? Good. Rollout? Bad. PK Flash? Bad.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Am I the only one pissed off about Links back air being just one tier above Little Mac's? Frame 6 with a faf of 31 (AC of 29 but the move ends before his short hop), combos into itself and then up b for a ****load of damage, 10 frames of landing lag, first hit sets up for kills, and rising bair can be used to gimp extremely well. This move is good, i have absolutely no idea why its its so low

 

[Bowserboy3]

's Bair should go up. His Bair has the AC frames Fair wishes it had, and has range that rivals his Fair. It comes out very quick, at frame 7, is very safe on shield when tipped, or just safe wherever when used retreating. It KO's very early for it's general speed, range and safety, KO'ing at around the 110% (stronger than character's like Mario, Bayonetta etc), and the ability to turn Marth's direction around in the air is just yet another positive. You head off stage, but see Fox is going to recover straight up by the ledge. You want to use Fair because it's easier to time on an recovery move like Fire Fox. What do you do? Bair to face the right direction, so you can Fair him.

With those points in mind, I also believe should move up too. However, she should be quite a bit lower than Marth. She has all the same positives as Marth, in general, but she cannot get the same KO power as him. While she doesn't have to space it near the tip due to the Parallel Falchion's properties, Marth's is still safe tipped or untipped, because of it's AC frames. Of course Marth's does have minimally more range too, which does become noticeable in a couple of matchups.

Now, also has a similar Back Air, like Marth and Lucina. However, while I believe Marth should be somewhere near the top of B, and Lucina somewhere near the middle/lower end of B, I think Roy should stay at the bottom of C (he could even potentially move down to D tier, with a few others, but that's for another day). Roy's Back Air comes out 1 frame slower than Marth and Lucina, and because of how quickly he swings his sword, it's actually out for less frames than Marth and Lucina, who swing their sword from A to B slightly slower (Marth/Lucina: 7-11, Roy 8-10). On top of this, Roy's Back Air does not AC in a short hop, and due to the nature of the Sword of Seals sweetspot, even if he uses it, it is rather unsafe and hard to strike properly with because of the need to be virtually hugging your opponent to hit hard. On top of THIS, it KO's later than Marth's too. The main reason Roy's Bair is so bad, is because it is just unsafe. Even if it KO'd earlier than Marth's, it would still be worse, because of how unsafe it is.

TL;DR
C -> B (somewhere within the top half of, eg: I think it's better than Puff's and Zard's, clearly).
C -> B (somewhere in the bottom half, but it's still a great Bair).
C is fine (there's even potential for it to be down in D, but if characters like Pac Man, Dedede, Wii Fit aren't down there yet, I think Roy is justified at the bottom of C).

---
Edit

Also, I want to touch on 's Bair. Rosalina's Bair alone is average; It's got average speed, decent damage, decent KO power (nothing to shout about, but it can KO), solid range, with some disjoint on the end. It does have a bit of endlag on it, and poor AC windows (still AC's in a short hop, but you get no variance).

Rosalina's real benefit from Bair comes into play when both her's and Luma's can be used together. When used together, it is essentially a multi hitting Bair, which is something special, unique to a very small bunch of characters. Together, their Bair is a relatively strong option, for multiple reasons. It has better KO power, thanks to Luma, and it's off stage potential is very threatening; while Rosalina's Bair alone is quite a scary option off stage, due to it's low angle of 38°, Luma's hits even lower, at 30° and of course, deals stronger knockback. It's essentially a semi spike, and can shut down a lot of characters or recoveries at very low percentages (Falcon, Ganon, Cloud etc). Of note, if you RAR their Bair, Luma's Bair reaches slightly further, due to him not being able to reach the front side of Rosalina before they leave the ground. And of course, you can utilise the Lunar Landing advanced technique to land using Bair. What's more, at low to mid percents, a Lunar Landing Bair can lead into a Dash Attack, or even a grab (where you can use a technique similar to Lunar Landing, where if you input Dash Attack, and grab straight after, Rosalina will dash grab, and Luma will Dash Attack, which is very good).

So yes, Rosalina or Luma's Bairs alone are meh, but combined, they become a pretty strong move overall, with multiple uses.

 

[arbustopachon]

Moves are not ranked within their division.

Also for anyone interested: http://gfycat.com/LimpingIndolentBeetle

This zard's 1.1.5 bair. It has since gotten a 1 unit size increase to its sweetspot hitbox.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Am I the only one pissed off about Links back air being just one tier above Little Mac's? Frame 6 with a faf of 31 (AC of 29 but the move ends before his short hop), combos into itself and then up b for a ****load of damage, 10 frames of landing lag, first hit sets up for kills, and rising bair can be used to gimp extremely well. This move is good, i have absolutely no idea why its its so low

It can also be easily SDI'd out of, has poor damage output, and has no kill power. Also, I don't think I have ever seen a Link combo bair into up B, but then again, I almost never see Link players. Do you have a video of that?

 

[epicnights]

It can also be easily SDI'd out of, has poor damage output, and has no kill power. Also, I don't think I have ever seen a Link combo bair into up B, but then again, I almost never see Link players. Do you have a video of that?

We've got analysis on each one of our moves in the Link metagame thread. For the sake of simplicity, I will quote the section on b-air.

Spoiler

Spoiler: Fox Is Openly Deceptive, post: 19031814, member: 130395

The dropkick (i.e. SH then Bair and FF at the same time at the peak of your jump to make it so that only the first hit of Bair comes out which is then immediately cancelled allowing you to combo out of it) is still a thing in smash 4 only it's ever so slightly less reliable. It strings into a buffered turn around U-tilt very reliably, and since most of us use an a-stick, getting the U-tilt immediately after you begin to turn around is super easy. [Continue to hold backwards after the Bair so that you buffer the turn around (i.e. without dashing) and then it's a simple matter of hitting the A-stick upwards at the right time to get the turn-around U-tilt with perfect timing every time.] This string will work at any percent due to the first hit of bair having set knockback so it can be used to set up U-tilt kills at high percents or U-tilt combos at low percents.

Spoiler: Dumbfire, post: 19034036, member: 160169

Bomb throw down > first hit of Bair works, and if you link it into a Utilt it does far more damage than the Nair people usually throw out. You can catch spotdogdes and shield drops with it too -- but those are very opponent dependent.

Spoiler: kxiong92, post: 19177003, member: 185886

So I was practicing follow ups for Link's first hit of bair. I was able to connect the front of UpB after the the first hit of bair. I tried multiple times and got the same result of it comboing. The combo counter registered both of the hits.

Edit:
After further testing, I was able to get it to work against Mario and Kirby.

Spoiler: Fox Is Openly Deceptive, post: 19177356, member: 130395

This is totally legit btw. It would seem that due to the slight speed buffs to the grounded Up-special, dropkick to turn around Up-special is now a true combo.

Oh, and you were concerned with it not working on Fox right? Well ignore the combo counter in his case. It's a true combo on him too if you buffer the turn around Up-special (by hitting diagonally up (more towards the up) special once you land). He just gets out of hitstun by landing, but see, he's then stuck in landing lag and cannot shield in time (again, if buffered properly), and so for all intents and purposes, it's a true combo.

Spoiler: Fox Is Openly Deceptive, post: 19177693, member: 130395

The front hit of the Spin attack hits on frame 8 now according to the patch notes, and it only barely registers as a true combo if buffered properly. U-tilt also hits on frame 8 but you need to make a separate input for the turn around (unlike the Up-special), so that sets you back a frame at the very least and that's if you're absolutely perfect with the timing of the U-tilt, and yet I believe that this is just enough to make it not a true combo (more thorough testing is required, but I looked into this a while ago). Regardless of this, I am a firm believer in the use of turn around U-tilt after a dropkick simply because it is (practically speaking) still very guaranteed due to it's large area of coverage to hit any buffered DJ's. D-smash hits on frame 9 and you of course have to turn around separately just like U-tilt. It also doesn't hit as high, so there's little chance of it catching double jumps unlike the U-tilt. It's a shame because from memory, in Brawl it was a true combo. That's not to say that it won't work now, it's just much less guaranteed if the opponent reacts. So the answer is it depends on the opponent and to some extent on the opponent's character.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

We've got analysis on each one of our moves in the Link metagame thread. For the sake of simplicity, I will quote the section on b-air.

The OP hasn't been updated to the point where I made that post about rage making Bair 1 follow-ups easier, to the point where Bair 1 to turn around U-smash is even possible.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so I am away now so I have been more inactive then I wanted to be but nonetheless here is the updated list for Bair:

https://quetzle.github.io/smash-apps/tier/

This will link out to the list as I currently cannot upload the picture here on mobile, but I plan on updating the OP with this list when I get the chance.

TL;DR:
A -> S
A -> S
A -> S
C -> A
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
B -> C
B -> C
B -> C
B -> C

Ok so now we will move on from aerials (finally...) and move on to Specials. Let's start the discussion with Up Special. Note when discussing this move category, it will be looked at its qualities as a whole (damage, knock back, recovery, etc...). Expect a preliminary list tommorow.

Sorry for the inconvenience everybody ! Really like how this thread is going so far

Edit: Miis are 1111

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's Up B in a nutshell:

"Funky attributes (rage + only hitting initial hit = reverse Mario Up B like kills), ability to drag those trying to gimp you to their death, ability to hit people on stage while being below it, decent damage that you can't combo into in a worthwhile way. The opponent either can't touch you or you're gimp bait. More frequently the later. More super armour plz."

 

[HoSmash4]

Better up bs

(Although edgeguardable if conditions are met)

Worse ones (I.e really limited use)
(You can debate)

Up bs are really good in general though!

 

[NintendoKnight]

Mario for best Up B.

Invincible on start-up, OoS option, comes out really fast, can kill off the top, decent recovery distance, decent combo ender, and it typically wins when it connects with an opposing attack.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Better up bs

(Although edgeguardable if conditions are met)

Worse ones (I.e really limited use)
(You can debate)

Up bs are really good in general though!

I would not say Pac has a up top up b. It is great stage control, however I have seen many people gimp Pac because of it. Same with Ness/Lucas

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ryu, Pikachu, Mario, MK, Zelda, and ZSS are the first things that come to mind when I'm thinking about the best up specials. Sheik would be up there but the removal of her 50/50 made it a bit pointless to use as an attack outside of edgeguarding. Bayonetta's is way to easily SDIed now and is more of a "get off me" option than a combo tool

As for combo breaking, Marcina, Sonic, Pac Man, and G&W are some of the best

 

[adom4]

Ganon's up-B is garbage, the only good things about it is the uppercut which is insanely disjointed (it can disrupt edgeguards & trumps decently enough) and the enormous magnet it has.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Ok so I am away now so I have been more inactive then I wanted to be but nonetheless here is the updated list for Bair:

https://quetzle.github.io/smash-apps/tier/

This will link out to the list as I currently cannot upload the picture here on mobile, but I plan on updating the OP with this list when I get the chance.

TL;DR:
A -> S
A -> S
A -> S
C -> A
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
B -> C
B -> C
B -> C
B -> C

Ok so now we will move on from aerials (finally...) and move on to Specials. Let's start the discussion with Up Special. Note when discussing this move category, it will be looked at its qualities as a whole (damage, knock back, recovery, etc...). Expect a preliminary list tommorow.

Sorry for the inconvenience everybody ! Really like how this thread is going so far

Okay serisualy, you moved jigglypuff DOWN? No. Just no. That is honestly hilarious. There is no excuse for that. Anybody who believes back-air should have have went down clearly knows nothing about the character.

Jigglypuff's b-air was fine where it was. In terms of strengths, it's a good killing tool and one of jigglypuff's better ones. As you can see in gameplay from most Jigglypuff gameplay, it's used a lot for that. It's also good for edgegaurding. As for flaws, it isn't the best bair or anything, but people are considering its flaws worse than it is, It might have 12 frames of startup or so, but it doesn't harm the move too hard, not enough to move her down.

Also, the move works well with her high air mobility.

As for up specials, they're hard to rate since they are both used for recovery and as an attack (But sometimes aren't good at one of them), but Pikachu's is good at both so that should be S. And what are we doing for miis?

btw the link doesn't work (Similar to the character named that)

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's up-b: http://gfycat.com/AngelicFrightenedElectriceel

Move hits on frame 9 and has super armor from frame 4 to 15 making an okay, albeit risky, combo breaker. The moves deals around 17% and has good kill power. Zard can set it up out of a jab mixups or at low percents out of u-throw, neither set up is guaranteed tho and are more of a mixup if anything.

The move is a decent oos option, or it would be if Zard's traction wasn't horrible and Zard's U-smash wasn't a much safer option.

The move is extremely unsafe if whiffed or blocked but it works well as a punish. The opponents will sadly sometimes pop out of the move tho.

Finally it doesn't cover the best distance when recovering low forcing zard to be careful with his multijumps.

I could see it as a C-tier up b.

 

[LRodC]

If I had to rank any:

Ryu - S
Mario - A
Dr. Mario - A
Luigi - B
Zelda - A
Meta Knight - S
Kirby - D
Little Mac - B
Ganondorf - D
Captain Falcon - D
Duck Hunt - F

 

[Wintermelon43]

Duck Hunt - F

Don't forget about Jigglypuff's up special, that's probably F tier by itself

 

[Lavani]

This is going to be a fun list.

probably deserves the #1 spot here. 1-6f invuln, 1-end arm intangibility on top of an already-disjointed hitbox, humongous damage and kill power, can confirm off jab dtilt and utilt, very low landing lag by recovery special standards, and still gets respectable height despite all this. Excellent move all-around.

also deserves S imo, even after the nerfs. SDIing it properly still depends on you reacting to a 4f move and frequently results in you flying out above Bayo anyway, which isn't a good place to be. Being able to act out of it with a paltry 3 frames of endlag on a character with aerial burst mobility, low-commitment aerials, a counter, and an effectively 1f airdodge makes it a very fast and fairly safe move to throw out. Not to mention the massive disjoint that's nearly impossible to challenge from above and sharks ledges, or its ability to be used twice. It just has so much going for it and is too central to Bayo to drop from S just because it lost some combo consistency.

I really want to say is S because it's the safest recovery move due to both invincibility and the jump-then-teleport letting Sheik consistently avoid 2-frames, the disappearance hit is a surprisingly strong hit on a character that is otherwise lacking in raw kill power, and there's a reappearance hit and windbox just in case you thought you could wait for her to reappear in your face. It might be argued for A with the loss of the dthrow 50/50 though, depending on how critical that was perceived to be to its value.

Shoe-in for F, shouldn't need explanation.

Don't have much initial opinion beyond that. It'll be interesting to see where upBs like Doc and Rosalina get ranked.

 

[Kofu]

His Up-B deserves A if not S. It's got a frame 6 hitbox that lasts 20 frames and doesn't decay with distance, a frame 2 windbox that can make juggling him difficult and makes for a good disruptor, and frame 5 intangibility to cover the initial part of his ascent. It travels a considerable distance vertically and provides him with a parachute to slow his decent and maximize his horizontal recovery. It also doesn't put him in freefall, allowing him to act after the move. It's overall a very flexible move with both defensive purposes and offensive ones, including a combo finisher and gimping tool. Its only real problems are its low damage (6%) and kill power (though it can still net kills through gimping).

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

But....but Pikachu's Bair is D material.

Falcon's up B will definitely move farther than Ganons, assuming you don't have to turn around. Both moves respond to air speed, and Falcon's got one of the best air speeds while Ganon's got one of the worst. However, Falcon's got much less protection. The grab hitbox is located on his lower body, while Ganon can grab somebody above him before he gets hurt. Holding down lets the punch shark under the stage too. These moves are both terrible and cement recovery as one of their greatest weaknesses. They deserve the same tier - Ganon's current tier.

I would put Toon Link down to Link's tier. Link's on the ground is his fastest kill option, and is great OoS when used thoughtfully under pressure. Without it, he has no OoS game. Tink is better for recovery thanks to his floatier stats, but the move itself does not take him higher. Both moves are weak in the sense that they leave several gaps between hits in the air for them to be hit. Swordfighter's Up B (and we are talking about default Up Bs, clearly) is as bad as Brawlers for sure. It will ledge snap better than Brawlers, but is still awful in this regard and has less horizontal distance before falling. And neither move has applications for onstage use or for attacking with such weak meteors and damage. For both moves you just plant a hitbox at the ledge from onstage and watch them fall. I don't agree with Cloud and Diddy in S. Diddy needs to lose a lot of height in order to have a recovery move that stands up to "above average", and when he's hit either while charging or flying, he falls for a long time before being able to try again. Monkey Flip is the better recovery move, Diddy's hate being put in a position where Up B is necessary. And Cloud's inability to ledge snap without limit is a big deal. Limit Climhazzard doesn't offer better protection besides the ledge snap, and is frustrating how it forces you to blow limit even when you didn't need the extra height. It hurts as much as it helps. G&W is easy A material. It lets him edgeguard deep with Dairs and there's no special fall landing lag. If you land in parachute mode, it's only 7 landing lag, and nothing if the player just remembers to tap down to exit it or uses an aerial. Meets Sonic and especially Mega Man's in every way. Mega Man might even need to drop. With no awesome spring for gimps, his move has 40 total frames before he can act. Sonic has just 18 as well as no RCO landing to worry about onstage like MM. Luigi and Mario need to swap places, while moving Doc up one. Doc's is great kill move, acting as a faster Fair in terms of finishing combos. Luigi's can kill too, but it's garbage for recovery and has more landing lag onstage than any other Up B the game - 68 frames. The second most is I think Lucario at 60 (non bounce landing), Dedede at 51, and then Bowser at 50. And I'm skeptical of Mii Gunner and Robin at that tier. Both moves offer no hitbox protection above or to the sides of them, and the projectiles themselves can't be counted on for kills except against bad recoveries. I could bring up Robin's limited Elwind uses, but I don't think I've ever witnessed a Robin die by running out. 9 uses total is plenty for one stock and 7 second recharge is very fast.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I could bring up Robin's limited Elwind uses, but I don't think I've ever witnessed a Robin die by running out. 9 uses total is plenty for one stock and 7 second recharge is very fast.

YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE PAIN OF PIKACHU MASHING NEUTRAL B UNTIL YOU DIE

On that note, Pikachu's bair does a good amount of damage and is a great tool for dragging people down to their deaths. Its able to consistently hit the 2 frame because of how long the hitbox lasts so its pretty reliable

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE PAIN OF PIKACHU MASHING NEUTRAL B UNTIL YOU DIE

On that note, Pikachu's bair does a good amount of damage and is a great tool for dragging people down to their deaths. Its able to consistently hit the 2 frame because of how long the hitbox lasts so its pretty reliable

Actually, the Bair damage is not good. It's only 8 maximum if you land all the hits, which is unlikely with how bad the move connects into itself. The weakest Bair in the game is Little Mac's with 6%, and second place is a tie between Link and Pikachu at 8. And I don't put much stock in the drag people to their deaths application by forcibly making them fall out. You'd trade with hitbox recoveries or miss entirely against unpredictable recoveries, and the move is clearly susceptible to DI. I'm more impressed with Thunder at the ledge. Much more active frames and chance to kill for the first 30. And as for catching 2 frame, there's exactly two frames between hits where you can miss the window through no fault of your own. Using Nair or Thunder at the ledge would not have this problem. With all of these shortcomings, Pika's Bair doesn't stand up to the ocean of Bairs that kill on their own or have safe usage onstage.

Also, on the topic of Up Bs, I forgot to mention Kirby and Ike. These rise than fall recovery moves aren't just bad for reaching the ledge. The real weakness comes during high level play because there's no variation in how the moves work and what their timing is. When I see Ike do his animation for Up B, I know exactly where I need to be in the next 50 frames with an attack for an easy kill. Just hover over the ledge and the late hit of a sex kick is sufficient depending on his %. Kirby and the Miis at least ledge snap at the apex of the jump, which shortens the vulnerability window by a ton. Also, not being able to grab the ledge from behind severely hinders the ability to go offstage for edgeguards, though Kirby gets around the issue by double jumping to turn around. Kirby gets around having to use Up B at all by virtue of having five jumps and being floaty. But even if he doesn't have to use his Up B, I don't see any worthwhile use for it. The projectile doesn't reach far and if there's a platform above you, it won't come out on the ground anyway.