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Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

What will you like to discuss next?

  • Jabs

    Votes: 29 72.5%
  • Grabs

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Continue with Specials

    Votes: 8 20.0%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .

ARGHETH

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
1,395
I could bring up Robin's limited Elwind uses, but I don't think I've ever witnessed a Robin die by running out. 9 uses total is plenty for one stock and 7 second recharge is very fast.
Yeah, generally you don't run out until you've already taken a stock, and Robin is very good at keeping people out.
YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE PAIN OF PIKACHU MASHING NEUTRAL B UNTIL YOU DIE
Don't keep running into them lol. Start outside the range and then snap in between Thunder Jolts.
Pikachu shouldn't be edgeguarding via Thunder Jolt spam anyways, it has like 20 other better ways to edgeguard.

Elwind is likely somewhere near the middle/top-ish of D tier, it's a bad recovery move but it's his fastest option in the air (F8) and the spike is awesome.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Yeah, generally you don't run out until you've already taken a stock, and Robin is very good at keeping people out.

Don't keep running into them lol. Start outside the range and then snap in between Thunder Jolts.
Pikachu shouldn't be edgeguarding via Thunder Jolt spam anyways, it has like 20 other better ways to edgeguard.

Elwind is likely somewhere near the middle/top-ish of D tier, it's a bad recovery move but it's his fastest option in the air (F8) and the spike is awesome.
I was stuck hugging the wall, pissed me off. thank god I don't use Robin in actual competitions
 

Xygonn

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Samus has a pretty good upb. It's her fastest move oos and makes up for her garbage grab. It does gobs of shield damage making it quite unsafe to shield on a platform above Samus or at the edge. It has a little bit of intangibility. The harder soft hits (first three) can stage spike or lead to guarunteed follow ups on ledge grab. The landing lag is pretty bad. I like upb.
 

Routa

Smash Lord
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Edit: Miis are 1111
I really didn't want to bring thiz up, but... Why? I presume it is 'cause the tier list maker allows only to have one icon per character and listing all Mii special options would require 2 more icons. Ofc this could be work around with photoshop/paint, but oh well... I will still talk about all the options I'm familiar with.

Brawler's Up-B 3 aka Piston Punch. PP is very strong kill move. Everyone praises Helikick for being bonkers kill move (which it isn't) while they tend to ignore this monster. First hit comes out on frame 4, which makes it amazing OoS option along with being great on reaction to use move. Kill power wise it is almost identical to that of a Helikick, but it kills vertically instead of horizontaly. It is harder to land than Helick tho and missed PP is easy to punish. Recovery wise the move is bad. Just bad. As a kill move it is about A-B tier, but recovery wise it is more D-E. Overall as a Up-B I would say it is B tier material due to its high kill power. Perhaps the best OoS killmove. Note: perhaps. I will comment on other Mii Up-Bs later.
 
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Funbot28

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I really didn't want to bring thiz up, but... Why? I presume it is 'cause the tier list maker allows only to have one icon per character and listing all Mii special options would require 2 more icons. Ofc this could be work around with photoshop/paint, but oh well... I will still talk about all the options I'm familiar with.

Brawler's Up-B 3 aka Piston Punch. PP is very strong kill move. Everyone praises Helikick for being bonkers kill move (which it isn't) while they tend to ignore this monster. First hit comes out on frame 4, which makes it amazing OoS option along with being great on reaction to use move. Kill power wise it is almost identical to that of a Helikick, but it kills vertically instead of horizontaly. It is harder to land than Helick tho and missed PP is easy to punish. Recovery wise the move is bad. Just bad. As a kill move it is about A-B tier, but recovery wise it is more D-E. Overall as a Up-B I would say it is B tier material due to its high kill power. Perhaps the best OoS killmove. Note: perhaps. I will comment on other Mii Up-Bs later.
I left them as 1111 as a wanted to replicate the tournament scene which only allows default Miis (although I do agree they should be allowed to have their customs....)
 

ILOVESMASH

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Falco's Up B is F-tier. This move is terrible for recovering due to its insanely high startup, tiny hitboxes, and the hilariously poor distance in travels. Said flaws make it use on stage as an OOS Option hilariously poor as well.
 

Airpoizon

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Ok I'm just gonna say what I know so here we go:
Roys up b is better then people make it out to be, on stage, it is a safe OoS option, super armor on frames 4-9, and kills at the same percent as your average smash attack in the middle of the stage. Overall it's really great onstage. However it isn't as good offstage, it doesn't have the super armor frames, does less damage, and will only kill if you and your opponent are at the top of the stage. The multiple hitboxes do make it somewhat safe when revovering, and the ability to angle it a bit helps as well.

Not sure what tier I should put him in though, so I'll let you decide based on the info.
 

Ffamran

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Ok I'm just gonna say what I know so here we go:
Roys up b is better then people make it out to be, on stage, it is a safe OoS option, super armor on frames 4-9, and kills at the same percent as your average smash attack in the middle of the stage. Overall it's really great onstage. However it isn't as good offstage, it doesn't have the super armor frames, does less damage, and will only kill if you and your opponent are at the top of the stage. The multiple hitboxes do make it somewhat safe when revovering, and the ability to angle it a bit helps as well.

Not sure what tier I should put him in though, so I'll let you decide based on the info.
It actually has I-frames (invincibility frames). People either didn't catch it or misread its code or something... I don't know and I don't remember. Anyway, I-frames were recently found on it and that it existed probably since Roy's launch. It's frame 9 invincible regardless if you use it on the ground or in the air, but on the ground, it also has armor at frames 4-10. Kind of causes an overlap of armor to invincibility. Don't trust me? Go to everyone's friendly frame data compilation. Don't trust that? Go to sixriver's, Japan's Smash 4 frame data compilation, page on Roy: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Yk0EP_437IdI/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=1777978906. Link starts on Roy's Specials page. Can't read it? Find a friend who can or just use something like Google translate. It's not going to translate into gibberish since it's a bunch of notes, short phrases and words, not an essay.
 
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Crystanium

Smash Hero
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Samus' Up-B (Screw Attack)
Pros
  • It is a kill move.
  • It shreds shields, such as if a character is on a platform or putting up a shield at the ledge of a stage to edge-guard. I've been able to shred my brother's shield, and while I'm pretty sure I've seen it break, the consecutive hits does not allow for punishing the broken shield.
  • It's a multi-hit attack.
  • It can be followed up from u-air 2x, allowing for at least 40% damage and even 0 to death.
  • There's an OoS invincibility frame. (Only functional if Tap Jump is on.)
  • Being nicked by the Screw Attack when Samus is raging can possibly lead to an instant kill.

Cons
  • Perfect shielding causes Samus to be left open. (Punishment is preventable on stages with platforms or if Samus fast falls to grab the ledge.)
  • There is a window where there are fewer hit boxes, allowing Samus to possibly be knocked out of the attack.
  • Useless against any attempt at attacking characters with a disjointed d-air.
 
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Masonomace

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Starting with Up-B first over Neutral-B eh? Alright I can dig it. For reference, I rated Shulk's Up-B in a few ways & thoughts with this post.

:4shulk:'s Up-B called "Air Slash" is a recovery move that's straight-to-the-point & doesn't have special directional features like some other moves. So it's a "Nowhere but up" kind of move. That's not a bad thing though because the move is hype, delivers a strong fear of presence, relatively quick despite Shulk's frame data being staggering, & it's deadly.

Statistics:
  • Startup is frame 10 & deals 6%. Makes it not a bad OoS option.
  • First hit is active from frame 10-17. Can scoop many things & put fear into the moment.
  • First hit range & vertical hitbox reach is great. Can easily challenge & outdisjoint many things offstage, resulting in bullying anyone's mediocre Up-B.
  • Sourspot damage is 5%, being from frame 12-17 with different WBKB values.
  • Second hit startup is frame 15-16, dealing 5.5%. However, the KBG is 170! Kill power is insane with Smash art offstage.
  • Second hit range is so great that it puts great fear offstage & is a strong finisher.
The move like I said is a "Nowhere but up" kind of Up-B, but you can drift left or right during the first hit rising if you desire. This gets augmented by the Jump & Speed arts, but weakened by Shield art. The vertical height gained is improved with Jump art. And since the first hit is WBKB solely, Buster & Smash art don't affect the knockback or spacing of the move. This means that you can realllllllllly delay the move for a while, since the longest it can be delayed is until frame 39 which you have to input the second hit before frame 40. This is how Shulk players who are in Speed art can really recover horizontally if they delay the rising first hit for that long. Frame 2-14 is about the frame window that Air Slash Hit 2 can snap to the ledge, & frame 2-11 is about the frame window that Air Slash Hit 1 can snap to the ledge. You just need the proper spacing is all.

My rating? High B or low A.
Again, the move is hype. It bullies the standard recoveries so well off-stage. And Shulk can actually true combo Uthrow into Air Slash with Jump art on the majority of the cast, so this move can be used often in the Advantage or when Shulk finds an opening. Oh & did I mention that Shulk can hit opponents hanging on the ledge with a standing Air Slash?
 

kendikong

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
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Worst: Jigglypuff

Best: Ryu (Actually, does true input shoryuken count as his up special?)

Every up B has pretty good uses, even Little Mac. Ranking them seems pretty difficult.
 
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TDK

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Screen Shot 2016-07-10 at 3.03.44 AM.png

Here's how I'd order it, personally. But let's take a more in-depth look.

:4ryu: has the best Up-B in the game, period. Invincible from frame 1, fast, kills stupidly early, you all know the drill. :4bayonetta2: runs a close second due to With Twist's extreme usefulness across the board.

:4zss: and :4sheik: have excellent Up-Bs, both in terms of distance and kill power, though ZSS gets the slight edge due to the ladder.

:4gaw: may seem like an odd choice to round out the top 5, but due to the priority on the hitbox on the way up, the distance, and the surprising difficulty of actually countering it. :4metaknight: gets beat out only because sometimes you can fly out of it before the second hit.

:4mario: and :4peach: bring up the rest of the S tier, because their Up-bs are almost exactly the same. They're extremely powerful OOS moves and finishers near the upper blast line, and can even do stuff like https://www.youtube.com/watchv=81oP6UWGYG4 <- this (yes, Peach's can do it too.) They're just extremely solid all-around moves.

:pikachu:'s quick attack is really good. Fast, unpredictable, can edge-cancel easily, good for footsies, little cool down.

Farore's Wind is :4zelda:'s best move. It's quick, making it a great OOS angle, long, and the second hit has crazy knockback, letting you take kills extremely early. To top it off, the first hit combos directly into the second hit, which can kill as low as 30% under the right circumstances.

Spring is Spring. Fast way to get to your opponent after an up throw, long, capable of gimping, and also has the spring-ride.

The next 5 have one thing in common: They're great OOS moves that have mediocre to poor distance. The problem isn't as bad for :4samus: or :4luigi:, since they have other options to recover, but Luigi's literally only goes straight up. They're all mostly good panic buttons that can kill.

Whirling Fortress might be the best OOS move in the game. Coming out on Frame 4, invincible, tons of hitboxes, covers distance, and can even kill. It also doesn't have that much lag.

Fly is a quick, armor-y move that is a decent escape option for :4charizard: despite getting poor distance.

Trampoline is like spring, but is held back severely because your opponent can use it too, just like the rest of :4pacman:'s specials.

Fire Fox is vulnerable at the start, but gets solid distance and can kill off an airdodge read.

Spin Attack gets distance, but isn't useful that much. :4link:'s kills and :4tlink:'s doesn't, but Link's distance is pretty poor. Additionally, they're also both pretty laggy.

Teleport and Warp have insane edge cancelling, which keeps them above the rest of the no-hitbox recoveries. That, and you can't be hit out of it during the actual warping.

Hyrdo Pump and Balloon Trip go far. That's really all they do.

Extremespeed at max aura is the longest up-b move in the game. But because :4lucario: has to be at max aura for it to be good, it's held back.

Blazer and Dragon Ascent are great OOS moves for their respective characters, but don't get the distance to put them any higher.

Abandon Ship! and Rocketbarrel Blast are both useful and cover good distance, but hitting them out of the moves causes them to lose it. Abandon Ship! is higher because you don't have to sit there charging it.

Wings of Icarus is pure distance, but it gets good distance.

Corkscrew is decidedly average. Nothing special about it.

Elwind is good, but you are vulnerable to meteor smashes and you can run out of uses.

Aether is like the rest of :4myfriends:'s kit: It doesn't like jank. If someone has any way to push you out of magnet-hand range, you're toast. Also, you can't grab the ledge from behind and pop above it instead of snapping to it. Final Cutter is similar, but shorter range and less armour, making it worse.

Air Slash goes up. With Jump, it goes more up. That's really all it does. It goes far, but it's too slow to be a practical OOS move.

Launch Star goes up. It starts up fast, so that's a bonus, and it goes far.

Robo Burner goes far, and you can attack out of it, but it's really, really slow, and combined with ROB's massive hitbox means you can run out of fuel really easily if your opponent is persistent enough.

Rush Coil, Winged Pikmin, and Duck Jump go up. Rush Coil has other uses, albeit small ones, so it gets an edge over the other two. Winged Pikmin can go further than Duck Jump without Pikmin, so it edges it out.

Super Hoop doesn't do much. It doesn't go far, but the hoops make it hard to interrupt.

Kong Cyclone also doesn't do much, and vertically is one of the worst Up-bs in the game, though it has a great horizontal movement, which is why it's this high.

Falcon Dive and Dark Dive go almost nowhere, but can be used again if you grab. Falcon's wins because it goes further.

Super Dedede jump is really finicky. If you don't stop your momentum, you don't grab the ledge and if you try to stop it before you go down and can't stop it, leaving you open. But if you don't stop it just right, you miss the ledge entirely on the way up too. It also doesn't have much use outside of recovery.

PK Thunder is bad. Lucas's is less bad because it goes further, but the move itself is the easiest recovery move to gimp in the game.

"But Limit Climhazard!" some of you are saying. Here's the deal with LCH: You get one shot. If you get interrupted during that, you're toast because non limit climhazard is crap. the move also has no uses outside of recovery, and if you're caught offstage without limit you're going to have a really hard time.

Offstage, Rising Uppercut is Climhazard that's been worsened in every way. But onstage, it's a good OOS move, kill move, anti-air move, and goes pretty far. Shame it just doesn't do anything offstage. You also miss the ledge and go over it, leaving yourself wide open.

Falco's Up B is F-tier. This move is terrible for recovering due to its insanely high startup, tiny hitboxes, and the hilariously poor distance in travels. Said flaws make it use on stage as an OOS Option hilariously poor as well.
This.

Now, I'm sure someone will yell at me for egg toss being a great spacing move for Yoshi, but it has some severe flaws. For instance, the projectile itself is slow and fairly telegraphed. Additionally, the move can get rid of your double jump in midair, which can force a landing when you really don't want to. It's also a horrible recovery move.

I shouldn't need to explain sing.

Yell at me if this isn't how this thread works, it's like 3AM and I need sleep.
 

Frihetsanka

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View attachment 111981PK Thunder is bad. Lucas's is less bad because it goes further, but the move itself is the easiest recovery move to gimp in the game.
I strongly disagree with the move, as a whole, being bad. Sure, as a recovery it's pretty bad, but it has so many other uses. It kills incredibly early if you're able to learn it, and if you've watched FOW play you'll see that even at a top level players sometimes get killed by PKT1. PKT1 is good for edgeguarding too.
 

Ropalme1914

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...Why Kirby's Up B is higher than Cloud's? You're really underrating Climhazard. It's very fast even without limit, has a great a hitbox (even if it does not cover his head, you don't see M2K or Tweek getting gimped all the time), and is one of the best moves to recover high.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
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TDK TDK I would rank Mario and Peach's Up-B in at least C. Peach's recovery with Up-B is short in vertical distance. It doesn't kill, either. Interrupting it is easy, even on stage. Mario should be lowered possibly to B. Sure, he can Up-B OoS, but I've had trouble at times with Mario's input in that when trying to recover where I should be able to, Mario Up-B's in the opposite direction. Maybe it's just me. It's useful in combos.

Sonic is only good in terms of vertical distance. The falling spring is easily avoidable. I think Sonic should be lowered, since the only good thing about it is how high he can jump.

Zelda and Samus should move past Mario and Peach. Pikachu should be after Samus.
 

TheGoodGuava

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TDK TDK I wouldn't really put Peach before Pikachu. Peach's up special covers a pretty short distance which forces you to recover high if you have burned your jump. Its also pretty easily interrupted

I would also put Hydro Pump around A tier. It has QA level mixups except it can't ledge cancel and its more of a gimping tool than a combo tool. It's another good tool for a high mobility character like Greninja

Then there's Yoshi in F tier. You're going to trigger someone with that **** lmao
 
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Empyrean

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Dragon Ascent [is a] great OOS move
Corrin's up-b is useless as an OoS punish. It's too slow at frame 18 and doesn't really have the range to punish any remotely spaced move.

Might as well talk about this move since i'm here. Dragon Ascent is a pretty straightforward special with very limited use outside of recovering. Even there, how good it is depends on who Corrin is facing. Characters like Marth with a good edgeguarding counter and range can bully Corrin offstage and god forbid she loses her double jump (= death regardless of %), while other characters have no choice but to let Corrin recover unless they try hitting her from above right between the 2 wing hitboxes (good luck). Up-b has frame 10-18 intangibility, which leaves Corrin fairly open during startup. 3 different angles, with the vertical one covering decent distance and having magnet hands, so that's a plus. It can also shark the ledge and send the opponents high enough for you to get back onstage for free, and sometimes even combos from a ledge jump.

You shouldn't ever use this move outside of recovery unless an opponent is in freefall fairly high above the stage or if you're feeling confident about an airdodge read or something like Diddy trying to Monkey kick over you. In these cases Dragon Ascent can kill quite early (I've seen it kill at 60% from around double jump height) but if you miss the hard punish is inevitable. Otherwise, it can't be comboed into and it's slow enough to airdodge on reaction.

I dunno where it would rank exactly but I'm confident that it wouldn't be in the top half. Should probably be around where Fox and Wario are.
 

Lavani

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TDK TDK I would rank Mario and Peach's Up-B in at least C. Peach's recovery with Up-B is short in vertical distance. It doesn't kill, either. Interrupting it is easy, even on stage. Mario should be lowered possibly to B. Sure, he can Up-B OoS, but I've had trouble at times with Mario's input in that when trying to recover where I should be able to, Mario Up-B's in the opposite direction. Maybe it's just me. It's useful in combos.

Sonic is only good in terms of vertical distance. The falling spring is easily avoidable. I think Sonic should be lowered, since the only good thing about it is how high he can jump.

Zelda and Samus should move past Mario and Peach. Pikachu should be after Samus.
I'd put both Mario and Samus in A, personally. Both are 12% combo enders with 3-6f invuln, potential for early rage kills, and "alright" recovery distance. Samus' is more applicable offensively, but Mario's is a safer recovery due to starting 2 frames earlier (actually fairly important, means invuln covers hits 1-3 i.e. when he's actually in motion) and being able to shark ledges. Both are more applicable than many upBs, both are equally great moves in my eyes.

Sonic's upB is also invincible on the ascent, can be acted afterward, and is really hell for various characters in edgeguard scenarios without putting Sonic at any risk to do. It deserves A.

I guess semi-related, after giving it some thought I would say the S/A tiers would look like
S: :4ryu::4bayonetta2::4zss::4metaknight::4sheik:
A: :4sonic::4mario::4samus::4gaw::4pikachu::4zelda:

There's a lot I take issue with here, but since others have already voiced similar opinions and I don't feel like typing a wall I'll try and keep it short.

:4bowser: should be like, C tier at best but imo probably more like D~E. The actual recovery distance is surprisingly good, but the move is completely free to challenge due to garbage hitboxes. Being Bowser's fastest OoS option is its most notable trait, but no invuln with huge commit for low damage, even lower if the multihits trip them out of the move.

:4luigi:Startup speed and Luigi's slipperiness typically require a powershield for it to even have a chance of working as an OoS option, precise sweetspot + worthless sourspot and the move inheriting momentum properties (less distance if used when falling) warrant D.

:4corrinf: is basically a hitbox version of Dark Dive and should be in whatever tier Ganon's in.

:4dk: air version has startup invuln + massive disjointed arms, ground version has superarmor. It's actually pretty difficult to contest if you can't easily get above DK in time. Would put a tier above Bowser, same tier at worst.

:4ness: is an amazing projectile in a variety of situations and could easily be B on that alone. :4lucas:is a garbage projectile and both easier and less risky to contest as a recovery even if the distance is great, and should stay where it is.

:4littlemac: has 1f invuln, sharks the ledge, and kills off dtilt and dthrow in the low 100%s. Might suck as a recovery but it has traits that warrant C~D.
 

TCT~Phantom

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View attachment 111981
Here's how I'd order it, personally. But let's take a more in-depth look.
Now, I'm sure someone will yell at me for egg toss being a great spacing move for Yoshi, but it has some severe flaws. For instance, the projectile itself is slow and fairly telegraphed. Additionally, the move can get rid of your double jump in midair, which can force a landing when you really don't want to. It's also a horrible recovery move.
Hello. I'm hear to yell at you for egg toss.

While Egg Toss might not be the best Up Special in the game, its far from bottom 2. It's slight jump, while small, is enough to ensure that Yoshi gets the ledge consistently. With double jump armor, any Yoshi getting gimped is a terrible yoshi. While the move might be bad in a vaccuum, in Yoshis kit it becomes really strong. A slow projectile that is harder to punish than it seems and is good for heckling opponents is great for a character who is great at boxing w other characters. Basically, its a tool that forces people to approach yoshi and makes his other moves stronger. Is it bad? By our standard definitions of recovery, yes. Is it bottom 5, or even bottom 2? No, its better than that.[/QUOTE]
 
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TheGoodGuava

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Hello. I'm hear to yell at you for egg toss.

While Egg Toss might not be the best Up Special in the game, its far from bottom 2. It's slight jump, while small, is enough to ensure that Yoshi gets the ledge consistently. With double jump armor, any Yoshi getting gimped is a terrible yoshi. While the move might be bad in a vaccuum, in Yoshis kit it becomes really strong. A slow projectile that is harder to punish than it seems and is good for heckling opponents is great for a character who is great at boxing w other characters. Basically, its a tool that forces people to approach yoshi and makes his other moves stronger. Is it bad? By our standard definitions of recovery, yes. Is it bottom 5, or even bottom 2? No, its better than that.
[/QUOTE]
called it
TDK TDK
Then there's Yoshi in F tier. You're going to trigger someone with that **** lmao
 

Kofu

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:4corrinf: is basically a hitbox version of Dark Dive and should be in whatever tier Ganon's in.
While I usually respect/agree with your options I feel this one is slightly biased.

Corrin's Up-B has several merits that make it at least a little better than Ganon's. First, it covers both sides of Corrin during the ascent instead of just the front like Ganon's. Said hitboxes also reach out a good distance horizontally (though they don't cover Corrin's head which is where its main vulnerability lies). It's at least a little threatening (for kills), unlike Dark Dive, where at best the grab pushes you away so Ganon can recover and at worst allows you to hit Ganon away from the ledge before he can use it again. Dragon Ascent also has some invulnerability, and while it occurs before the move (and its first active hitbox is four frames slower than Dark Dive's initial grab) said invulnerability is better than an utter lack of it. Corrin is also quite fluid in the air once Dragon Ascent ends making overshooting the ledge and drifting toward the stage an occasionally viable option. I'm not sure if all these attributes warrant a higher tier than Ganon's Up-B but the move seems at least a little better than Dark Dive to me.
 
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Lavani

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I'm not sure if all these attributes warrant a higher tier than Ganon's Up-B
They don't, which is the point I wanted to make. It has some unique perks, but it's the same sort of "slow-to-start, ok-at-best distance upB padded with magnet hands, with no practical use on-stage that isn't an all-or-nothing hail mary" type of move.

The hitbox placement can actually be a liability compared to not having a hitbox at all, too. Something like Wario dair, even with its horrid hitboxes, will still be able to trade with the move, and when Wario's dair multihit trades Corrin is dead at 0%.

Large magnets (same as Ganon!) and "respect the wings" is really all I have to say that's good about the move. It is better than Ganon's upB, but not by a tier.
 

Kofu

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They don't, which is the point I wanted to make. It has some unique perks, but it's the same sort of "slow-to-start, ok-at-best distance upB padded with magnet hands, with no practical use on-stage that isn't an all-or-nothing hail mary" type of move.

The hitbox placement can actually be a liability compared to not having a hitbox at all, too. Something like Wario dair, even with its horrid hitboxes, will still be able to trade with the move, and when Wario's dair multihit trades Corrin is dead at 0%.

Large magnets (same as Ganon!) and "respect the wings" is really all I have to say that's good about the move. It is better than Ganon's upB, but not by a tier.
It could just be me not properly learning the hitbox placement but I find it a lot harder to edgeguard than Dark Dive (and the penalties for missing are a lot more severe). The invincibility before the move makes it harder, too.
 

Funbot28

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OK while I away and unable to update the tier list for Up B, I will use TDK TDK list as the preliminary one as I mostly agree with it. So discuss of if that for now.
 

TDK

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OK while I away and unable to update the tier list for Up B, I will use TDK TDK list as the preliminary one as I mostly agree with it. So discuss of if that for now.
Cool. I realized I forgot miis, so I've added them.

Screen Shot 2016-07-10 at 1.08.28 PM.png

If you guys like, I can update this every few days, too.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Going from TDK's list:

Corrin's Up B needs to go down. Explained by others pretty well, maybe around Diddy/Wario.

Olimar/Duck Hunt I would drop. Besides the pretty massive flaw of "no hitbox", Olimar's is dependant on how many pikmin you have on you.

Yoshi's I would probably put above Little Mac but that would be it. Still a pretty bad recovery move but it does have some decent onstage use.

Nitpicky/bias here I'd probably put Ike > Robin. Ike's can turn into a suicide move if ahead by a stock, Robin has to worry (a bit) about number of uses. Neither recoveries are exactly great.

Mewtwo I'd drop under Palutena due to the whole "deadzones that will make you bounce off" thing. And then Fox's I would drop a lot. Not a great recovery move, times its actually used outside of that are rare and limited. Does it happen? Sure, but not often at all. I'd put it somewhere in C tier.

Bowser's Up B is hard to place. A lot of use onstage but it is craaaaaaaaap as a recovery option. End of the day I'd probably drop it below Pac-Man I guess? That entire "meh/bad distance but good OoS" group in A tier I'd probably drop into B tier and put Peach down in C tier. After that S-A would be pretty set in terms of order. Would put Mario down in A but still above Pikachu.
 

Crystanium

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I guess semi-related, after giving it some thought I would say the S/A tiers would look like
S: :4ryu::4bayonetta2::4zss::4metaknight::4sheik:
A: :4sonic::4mario::4samus::4gaw::4pikachu::4zelda:
I still think Samus is above Sonic and Mario. As I said before, the only benefit for Sonic is his ability to jump high. His spring is the only attack that comes from it, and he cannot kill easily with that attack. It depends on a specific circumstance for that to happen, and even then, it's not guaranteed. Mario has OoS options with his Up+B, but so does Samus. Mario may beat Samus in terms of frames, but not in killing. Both are multi-hit attacks. Both suffer from punishment if they don't hit their opponent, though this can possibly be prevented if either are on a stage with platforms or if either fast falls to the edge. Can Mario's Up+B alone reach the top platform at Battlefield? If not, then Samus also has some extra height, since the distance between her and the top platform at her peak Up+B is about as tall as if Samus was crouching. I also think Zelda's Up+B should be above Samus'.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Wait, are we still on the first template of Up Bs or TDK TDK list. Because I can't name specific tiers or say "move up or down". The first template I'm hoping we get an update on soon because

OK while I away and unable to update the tier list for Up B, I will use TDK TDK list as the preliminary one as I mostly agree with it. So discuss of if that for now.
Oh.

:4bowser: should be like, C tier at best but imo probably more like D~E. The actual recovery distance is surprisingly good, but the move is completely free to challenge due to garbage hitboxes. Being Bowser's fastest OoS option is its most notable trait, but no invuln with huge commit for low damage, even lower if the multihits trip them out of the move.

:4dk: air version has startup invuln + massive disjointed arms, ground version has superarmor. It's actually pretty difficult to contest if you can't easily get above DK in time. Would put a tier above Bowser, same tier at worst.
I have some input on this as a Bowser main. Bowser losing the 1-5 I frames and ledge slipping for safety on the ground that he had in Melee/Brawl was huge. But the one way to avoid Whirling Fortress block punish is through spacing, not with more pressure. Whirling Fortress can move to cover the vast majority of the cast's options for spacing and beautifully covers dodge rolls, tech chasing, and ledge options on human player's reaction. To compare it to DK's grounded up B is unfair and largely misses the applications. DK can't turn around and doesn't put out a hitbox until frame 19, than 25 for covering what Bowser consistently covers at 6. He would use it out of shield, the opponent fades back, and the only way they get hit is if they dumbly run back in for a dash attack or something. Fortressing opponents is commonly free in high level play, only less common than our cheesy grab ranges or safe jab pokes, but Fortress doesn't clock massive damage, and that's the moves real greatest weakness. For a move that we absolutely need and use a lot, we often go for riskier options that yield greater reward. Bowser attacks all deal 9-24% damage, and grounded fortress is 11 maximum (more often 4-7 when opponent rightly spaces). It also won't kill at the comfortable 90-150% ranges that tilts, Side B, Bomb/Dair, aerials, and Jab can after Uthrow to Uair stops being guaranteed. Fortress was largely in need of a damage buff but we got the best combo throw in the game instead.

The recovery distance with delayed mashing gives him fantastic distance and options for recovery angle and stalling. And our floatiness lets us not need our double jump until it's required for getting over bullies or counters. DK needs that Double jump to reach ledge at all from blast zone, and reduced height makes him totally gimpable in general. I admire DK's arm intangibility, but it doesn't protect him from everything. We generally prefer recovering almost straight up since up is where our hitbox is the most disjointed (as disjointed as Mario coming at a 45 angle, both moves consistently traded with by late sex kicks). Bowser should avoid horizontal movement unless he's getting past the opponent's read by burning double jump. The one thing we complained about was no ledge snap from behind which made offstage edgeguards with massive aerial hitboxes riskier than it had to be, but that was fixed in a patch. Now frame 8 -end ledge snap on either side. I could also point out that Air Fortress has 35% damage potential, but that is only set up from combo throw, and opens him up to massive punishes that a 24% Nair wouldn't, plus way more susceptible to DI. As for Bowser's tier placement, I would say B with the new chart.

The new chart has a lot of issues though. Yoshi being the biggest. Already better than Jiggs by recovering at all, the eggs lead into Aerials, including Fair spike, and cover his drift back to stage when launched offstage. Bowser Jr is a D at highest. An ejected Bowser Jr getting hit by any attack, regardless of knockback, will fall to his death if he fails to grab the ledge. Z-dropped aerials, Zard/Bowser Flamethrower, grabbing the ledge than letting go for a sex kick, all instantly kill a Jr. forced to use Up B. That's why he prefers Clown Kart. The only character that should have trouble with this instant kill opportunity is Little Mac. G&W is fantastic, but not top tier. His custom options would be top tier, but he's really got the same strengths as Sonic besides combo into Uair and a spring. The highest tier for him is A. Peach also needs the boot. Yes the disjoint is amazing, but the recovery height isn't and the setups into Up B for a kill off the top are not nearly as varied or relevant as Marios. I'd put her in C, personally. Charizard's is simply not as good as Bowser either on the ground or in the air. I do like it's killing power, but it's vertical height is so pitiful and relevant for a character that falls this fast. Flare Blitz is a better recovery move and has armor toward the end, rather than beginning. Mii Swordfigter and Brawler deserve Gunner tier. Gunner is a better recovery move but with even less protection. Cloud and Little Mac in D. Both fail to ledge snap, but Little Mac uses his to kill and escape strings. Limit Up B saves Cloud's life less than it wastes limit charges, but is still a better OoS option than most Up Bs, and definitely anything else he can do from shield. DK should have D. Vertical height is poop and so is grounded use, but it's a combo breaker he absolutely needs with that bad air dodge and aerials, and works as a throw followup. Wario should move down at least one. It's recovery height and angles are only good enough for D tier and its rare he needs it between bike and Waft. I can't think of any reason why it deserves higher.

Can Mario's Up+B alone reach the top platform at Battlefield? If not, then Samus also has some extra height, since the distance between her and the top platform at her peak Up+B is about as tall as if Samus was crouching.
Yes, Mario will reach. He can trade a small amount of vertical height for improved horizontal distance as well. All in All, Samus is extremely comparable to Mario in height, and distance with the aid of her floatiness. I think Mario and Samus are both right in A with how often they combo and even kill.
 
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Ropalme1914

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Like I said in my other commentary, Climhazard without limit should be at worst D. With limit, it would be around A tier, seeing that Marcina are there. Overral, I would say it is B tier, since one thing I did not said in my other commentary is that it can net you jank kills (Second hit has high base knockback, so it it very powerful at T&C, I remeber M2K killing some Meta Knight with this at 26% if I'm not mistaken, you can also spike with the second hit and sweetspot the ledge, and limit can kill vertically, even better with platforms).
 

Kofu

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Bowser Jr is a D at highest. An ejected Bowser Jr getting hit by any attack, regardless of knockback, will fall to his death if he fails to grab the ledge. Z-dropped aerials, Zard/Bowser Flamethrower, grabbing the ledge than letting go for a sex kick, all instantly kill a Jr. forced to use Up B. That's why he prefers Clown Kart. The only character that should have trouble with this instant kill opportunity is Little Mac.
You do realize this is only true for low percents/attacks that don't induce tumble? If Bowser Jr. is put into tumble after using his up-b he gets to respawn the Clown Kart and use Abandon Ship! again. Certain attacks are indeed very good at killing him if he uses his up-b (Flamethrower is a good one) but not everyone has an option that both hits under the ledge and fails to induce tumble at high percents.

C or D is good since it does have some notable killing/trapping potential from the dropped Kart and the powerful hammer swing.

G&W is fantastic, but not top tier. His custom options would be top tier, but he's really got the same strengths as Sonic besides combo into Uair and a spring. The highest tier for him is A.
I'm fine with Fire in A (as it's not generally a real threatening move) but I fail to see how Heavy Trampoline or Trampoline High Jump would be S where Fire is not. Heavy Trampoline cuts the vertical distance by about a third and makes safely gimping with the move much harder. High Jump is probably better for distance but losing the hitbox during the ascent is a huge blow. Both moves make for nice kill options that he lacks but really require the sweetspots to he effective. Additionally, Heavy Trampoline and Trampoline High Jump are both slower than default Fire (frame 8 and 12 respectively) which is bad for an OoS option. If they both have good invincibility windows said weakeness may be mitigated somewhat but I don't have that data.
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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You do realize this is only true for low percents/attacks that don't induce tumble? If Bowser Jr. is put into tumble after using his up-b he gets to respawn the Clown Kart and use Abandon Ship! again. Certain attacks are indeed very good at killing him if he uses his up-b (Flamethrower is a good one) but not everyone has an option that both hits under the ledge and fails to induce tumble at high percents.

C or D is good since it does have some notable killing/trapping potential from the dropped Kart and the powerful hammer swing.


I'm fine with Fire in A (as it's not generally a real threatening move) but I fail to see how Heavy Trampoline or Trampoline High Jump would be S where Fire is not. Heavy Trampoline cuts the vertical distance by about a third and makes safely gimping with the move much harder. High Jump is probably better for distance but losing the hitbox during the ascent is a huge blow. Both moves make for nice kill options that he lacks but really require the sweetspots to he effective. Additionally, Heavy Trampoline and Trampoline High Jump are both slower than default Fire (frame 8 and 12 respectively) which is bad for an OoS option. If they both have good invincibility windows said weakeness may be mitigated somewhat but I don't have that data.
I was actually not aware of Jr.'s Tumble clause. All the easy moves to hit him with are weak attacks with lots of active frames. It's still a glaring weakness and a large aspect of the MU. How to get him offstage -> How to knock him out side B -> How to intercept up B. Killing Jr as early as 20% isn't just possible, it's the plan. As for Fire (it was an offhand comment since there's no business talking about customs here), it's startup is 9 and the windbox pushes them away from you. The other two lack windboxes, as you want them to actually hit. Heavy deals 16% damage, then 10 rather than Fire's 6 and has kill potential (still bad, but so's his general moveset for knockback). It improves Dthrow followups with late hit into aerials or a side B, adding 10% to whatever he typically gets without it. Jump I'm less enthusiastic about because it's not an optimal Dthrow followup with the lack of late hit, but it actually kills sooner than Heavy despite dealing just 12% damage. The KO power is comparable to Fsmash at the ledge and Usmash, and is safer than both to throw out. And has some tight combo windows that let it rival heavy for a bit. It's improved I frames allow it to recover better against edgeguards, but not as much as you might think just looking at the numbers. Default Fire lacks 90% of everything I've mentioned with only a low launch angle offstage to show for it. As for intangibility, Fire is 5-11, Heavy Trampoline is 5-13, and Trampoline Jump is 7-17. Fire has FAF of 41, Heavy is 29, Jump is 45

Also, I have to harp on Ike once again. Without another wall of text, Rise than fall Up Bs are terrible for bad ledge snap windows and no variation for how you approach a ledge. For Ike, imagine Cloud's Up B, but you've got 20-30 more frames of vulnerability at the ledge. All you need to do is get past that sword since he has no hitbox behind or above him. A free Dair or sex kick that shouldn't even take practice to land. I struggle to think of opponents who can't punish this recovery - even little mac can with a super armor Dsmash that reaches under the ledge, or a carefully timed counter.
 
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Ffamran

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Falco's Up B is F-tier. This move is terrible for recovering due to its insanely high startup, tiny hitboxes, and the hilariously poor distance in travels. Said flaws make it use on stage as an OOS Option hilariously poor as well.
For people who want to see their hitbox differences more easily.


Falco's Fire Bird, Distant Fire Bird, Blaster, and Burst Blaster are one of the many triggers I have about him. Falco Phantasm too, but for different reasons as I view it as a conceptually broken move that really shouldn't have existed in the first place, especially since it debuted in a game where fall speeds were much faster and recoveries were much worse. I'm going to try to be formal about this, though.

Falco's Fire Bird, starting in Brawl, has absolutely no merit when compared to Fire Fox and Fire Wolf. Pre-Brawl, in Melee and in 64 which is what it was based on -- shorter travel, stronger hit, and no charge than Fox's "redesigned" Fire Fox in Melee --, that had merit. Melee Fire Bird could be considered like Luigi's Super Jump Punch where it's not as good as Mario's for recovery or as a utility move, but for KO'ing which is still situational because of how those moves work, they're fantastic at that, however situational. Brawl and Smash 4 Fire Bird just ends up as an inferior Fire Fox. Same charge startup at 20, same launch frame at 43 -- 44 in Smash 4 for some reason --, same angles, and also same landing lag -- just off by 1 where Fire Bird's is 19 and Fire Fox's is 20.

Here's where Fire Bird is different: it travels a little under half, so about 2/5's, of Final Destination which is apparently average since if you use it vertically, it's about Mario's Super Jump Punch which is also about where Captain Falcon's Falcon Dive, Ganondorf's Dark Dive, I'm pretty sure Ike's Aether, Marth's Dolphin Slash, etc. reaches. When you think about that, it's pretty bad. At worst, other average traveling recoveries are half its startup and some of them can angle as well. Might not be as flexible, but still a thing they're capable of. Otherwise, they might be able to juke or offer much more protection like the disjoint on Ganondorf, Ike, and Mario's or Marth's I-frames and sheer speed. On Fox's side, Fire Fox's travels a little over half, about 4/5's, of Final Destination which is around what Palutena's Teleport, Rosalina's Launch Star, Sonic's Spring Jump, and Zelda's Farore's Wind reach.

Next up is how they hit. Fire Bird's travel is a multi-hit while Fire Fox's is a single-hit with a clean hit and a late hit. Looking at their hitboxes, Fire Bird's pretty bad and if you look at their frame data, Fire Bird's even more unreliable than the worst of multi-hits. First thing to note is that both moves can potentially do around 30% if all hits connect for Fire Bird and if the charge connects into the clean hit of Fire Fox; Fire Bird can potentially do 31% if all 15 hits connect and Fire Fox can do 28% if its 7 2% charge hits and 14% clean hit connect. At this point, you might be thinking that it's reasonable for Fire Bird to not be able to do 31% consistently which I agree even if it's a 20 startup and 85? frame commitment. This is exactly what happens for Fire Bird, it doesn't connect its hits well. Its charge has 70 degree hit angles, so it pushes people up and away from Falco. After that, the launch hit has a 361 degree angle which is about 0 degrees, so straight forward, at low percents to 40 degrees at high percents on ground opponents and 45 degrees on aerial opponents. This pretty much means it's likely to not lead the charge hits to the travel hits. The travel hits do have auto-link angles meaning the opponent will follow Falco, but they have no set knockback whatsoever, so the knockback is inconsistent and dependent on the opponent's damage. Lastly, the last hit is pathetically weak as it only does 2% with 70 base and 90 growth -- that's like marginally stronger in knockback than most jabs. Last time I checked, the last hit KO'd Pit on Final Destination on the 3DS at 470%. kenniky recorded one too at 461% on Mario on Omega Gaur Plains on the 3DS, but I don't know if it was just the last hit or all or most of the move. Only good thing about the last hit is that it's disjointed so it offers some protection, but that doesn't make up for much when the rest of Fire Bird's hitboxes are terrible.

For Fire Fox, despite feeling that it shouldn't be able to consistently do around 28%, it can and that's helped by its charge hit angles and only having to deal with a single hit right after. Fire Fox's charge hits have angles of 110 degrees which pushes people up and into Fox. After that, they're going to eat a 14% hit that sends people up at 80 degrees with fairly good knockback for a high damage hit at 60 base and 60 growth. If that doesn't connect, there's still a late hit that does 8% with 60 base and 60 growth for a safety net. Probably could even KO and probably much earlier than Falco's. It's situational, but if Fox manages to catch you with Fire Fox, it's likely he will put on a lot of damage and even KO you at decent percents. I think shofu even tried to (jokingly) make it a signature combo of his to setup Fire Fox from D-throw. Oh, and for those that follow as many tournaments as possible, Larry Lurr's Fire Fox setup on ZeRo's Diddy. In a way, Fire Fox's is pretty much like Diddy's Rocketbarrel Boost in how it's used to KO, but Fire Fox has much more commitment since Fox can't just instantly launch under the ledge for a safer recovery.

The other different things which frame data won't tell you is from the in-game tips and from what happens when you use them. I'll start with the latter since it's shorter: when you use Fire Bird and end up in the air, so not landing on-stage or ledge-grabbing, Falco's horizontal momentum gets locked making it so Falco can barely move in the air. In contrast, when you use Fire Fox in the same way, Fox's horizontal momentum doesn't get locked, it might be capped to a lower speed, but he can still move around a bit. Point of reference, if you use Fire Bird straight up on the center Battlefield's top platform and try to move left or right completely, Falco will only move to the other side of it, so like if the center was one third, then the other sides are the other thirds. Fox on the other hand, makes it to the lower platforms and almost to the center of them. Yes, he has more time to fall down from, but he feels much less restricted than Falco falling down from Fire Bird. Less convoluted comparison: Fire Bird's fall is Ganondorf's Dark Dive or Luigi's Super Jump Punch and Fire Fox's fall is Captain Falcon's Falcon Dive or Mario's Super Jump Punch.

The one from the in-game tip? It's this: "Fire Bird – Inertia makes this move slower than Fox's Fire Fox. If you use it while moving horizontally in midair, you'll slide along in midair for a moment." The game straight up tells you it's worse slower than Fire Fox. So, no need to compare recordings to if Fire Bird is faster or slower to Fire Fox, but that still leaves out 56 other characters and maybe 20 of them share or have similar moves... Oh, and it tells you that Fire Bird can be B-reversed and it keeps Falco's momentum when B-reversing unlike Fire Fox.

After that, there isn't much else other than some minor things that set them apart like the different poses introduced in Smash 4 where Falco's new pose raises his arms a bit higher, so his hurtbox is probably higher, Fox still keeps his spin which could make it harder to hit him since his hurtbox constantly moves, or that because Fire Bird is much weaker, it can create lock / reset situations which is cool, but you have to figure it's basically a frame 40 reset move and Falco has better options like a frame 20 late Dair, a frame 6 late Bair, frame 6 Ftilt, frame 2 jab, or Blaster for resets or that KO'ing is probably more useful than resets which Fire Fox can do and which both Falco and Fox can do with their other moves.

If customs were discussed in this thread, Fire Bird would manage to be even worse. Twisting Fox is Fire Bird where it has its travel distance, slower travel speed, and is a multi-hit, but is more reliable because it has set knockback on its travel and probably better hitboxes and KO's much earlier; last hit of Twisting Fox does 2%, but has insane knockback at 270 base and 60 growth. So, Fire Bird is a worse version of Twisting Fox too... Distant Fire Fox isn't any better than Fire Bird. It launches at frame 52 so that Falco can travel half of Final Destination -- still less than Fire Fox --, but even slower than Fire Bird and locks Falco's horizontal momentum even lower during its fall. Distant Fire Bird also loses its charge hit and its clean hit is weaker than Fire Fox's late hit at 8%, 65 base, and 45 growth -- clean hit KO's Pit at about 409%, a 61% difference in the 400% to 500% KO range -- while its late hits are a reliable version of Fire Bird's travel hits -- probably because it moves so damn slow --, but it loses the last hit of Fire Bird, so the late hits can't reasonably KO at all. Does 30% if all the late, travel hits connect, but never KO's. Fantastic. So, crappier than Fire Fox and Twisting Fox... Funny thing is that if Wolf ever comes back in a future Smash and they base something from Star Fox Zero, Wolf might have (a toned down) Twisting Fox. At that point, if Falco doesn't just have Fire Wolf, it's going to be really, really sad. It's amazing how both moves manage to be worse to the same 2 moves. There's also something to be said when I say I would rather have Little Mac's Rising Uppercut aerial distance, but Cloud's Climhazzard's first hit's single hit, lower knockback, and poor ledge sweet-spot than Fire Bird.

Most of this is, from what people try to conclude as to why Fire Bird and Fire Fox are the way they are, mostly in their recovery distance, is that it's because Falco jumps much higher than Fox (and anyone else). That's reasonable, but if you look at who else rivals Falco for jump height, by default it's Greninja at 2nd, Luigi and ZSS at 3rd, and Rosalina at 4th. With Specials, Lightweight Palutena's first, Jump Art Shulk second, and then Falco at 3rd. Most of these characters, have much, much better recoveries in general not to mention better air mobility except for Luigi. Greninja's Hydro Pump is faster and going straight up goes about Fire Fox, Teleport, and Farore's Wind's distance. Luigi's got a vortex of doom, Luigi Cyclone, that makes it difficult for characters, especially fast faller to challenge. It'll take practice to mash and input lag can interfere with it, but the idea is you can always practice for something better; you can't practice a bad move if that makes any sense. And Luigi's Super Jump Punch is still pretty fast even if it's not that threatening. ZSS has access to 2 vertical recoveries: Boost Kick which has average distance and Flip Jump which is invincible from frame 3-12, 10 active I-frames, along with 2 horizontal recoveries: Plasma Whip and tether grab. Then there's Rosalina who doesn't have a hitbox on hers, but she keeps or maybe has increased momentum when falling with it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Luma can attack at least after the move, right? So, yes, Falco jumps high, but there are also other high jumpers with much better vertical or overall recoveries and much better Up Specials.

Links to stuff: Hitbox visualizations directory by Furil: http://smashboards.com/threads/hitbox-visualization-compilation.432936/.
Falco's KO percents by kenniky: http://smashboards.com/threads/kill-percents-on-all-relevant-moves.407089/.
Falco's KO percents on Pit and custom frame data: http://smashboards.com/threads/ill-...et-data-updated-on-6-20.387402/#post-18408243.
Falco's in-game tips section: http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_tips_(SSB4-Wii_U)#Falco.
Fox's raw frame data for Twisting Fox (use the bar to go down to "SpecialHi_C3 - 60DC32D7"): http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/160/fox.
Other frame data you can just go a friendly frame data compilation site or threads on Smashboards.

TL;DR: Fire Bird is just an inferior Fire Fox, Fire Wolf, and Twisting Fox. It's F-tier and should be by itself since Jigglypuff's Rest isn't just an inferior version to another character's move(s). Also, Yoshi's Egg Toss is still much more usable as a move in general. Might not be amazing and not a "real" recovery move, but it's versatile. You have to remember that Yoshi's recovery is unique as it hinges on his armored double jump. Similar case is Jigglypuff whose recovery hinges on high air speed, air maneuverability, and multiple jumps.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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Also, I have to harp on Ike once again. Without another wall of text, Rise than fall Up Bs are terrible for bad ledge snap windows and no variation for how you approach a ledge. For Ike, imagine Cloud's Up B, but you've got 20-30 more frames of vulnerability at the ledge. All you need to do is get past that sword since he has no hitbox behind or above him. A free Dair or sex kick that shouldn't even take practice to land. I struggle to think of opponents who can't punish this recovery - even little mac can with a super armor Dsmash that reaches under the ledge, or a carefully timed counter.
If Ike can use aether from under the stage he's probably going to make it back. That the advantage his has that Kirby, Shulk, and Cloud don't have: if he can get under the stage you can't use any onstage based edgeguarding against it, he's going to shark you out of it. It also has a bit better magnet hands than people (including Ike mains frequently) realize. Its certainly not amazing though.

Which they could have let it still snap backwards, but that spike mechanic + SSB4's ledgegrab mechanic with the 2 frame window would have = "if you have to grab the ledge against Ike you die".
 

Funbot28

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Cool. I realized I forgot miis, so I've added them.

View attachment 112001
If you guys like, I can update this every few days, too.
although I was thinking maybe to comply with other lists can you make the list go as followed: S-A-B-C-D-E

Unless people that the divisions should be more specified for specials, I think this can help with consistency.
 
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arbustopachon

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Charizard's is simply not as good as Bowser either on the ground or in the air. I do like it's killing power, but it's vertical height is so pitiful and relevant for a character that falls this fast. Flare Blitz is a better recovery move and has armor toward the end, rather than beginning
Zard's fall speed isn't really fast at all. He has 1.4 which is below average. He does have a very high gravity tho.

Fly does have a certain niche over whirling fortress, mainly combo breaking while in the air. Also the super armor does give him certain protection against gimps and spikes. Zard can also mixup fly out of jab as a pseudo kill setup if the opponent does not react on time.

As long as Zard saves his jumps he shouldn't really get gimped, tho that kinda goes to a lot of characters.

The main issue with fly is that people sometimes just fall out of it. I think it is ok on B but i could also see it on C.
 
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TDK

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although I was thinking maybe to comply with other lists can you make the list go as followed: S-A-B-C-D-E

Unless people that the divisions should be more specified for specials, I think this can help with consistency.
Sure thing. Would it be worth keeping F just because Sing is actually below the level of every other up b in the game, or should I throw it onto E as well?
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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If Ike can use aether from under the stage he's probably going to make it back. That the advantage his has that Kirby, Shulk, and Cloud don't have: if he can get under the stage you can't use any onstage based edgeguarding against it, he's going to shark you out of it. It also has a bit better magnet hands than people (including Ike mains frequently) realize. Its certainly not amazing though.
I'm afraid if Ike uses it under the ledge, he's getting hit by the same Dair spikes and Nairs he would if he's at the ledge's height. No, the best way to space is to be as horizontally far as possible so the swords grants the most protection. Trying to go as low as possible grants less protection as the opponent sets up their position to hover over you and results in more frustrating SDs, since the ledge grab hitbox just doesn't reach as high as his sword and cape visually will when spinning, while a horizontal angle results in the "magnet hands". The move does not generate a hitbox along his body's path, directly above when spinning, or behind. Ike is vulnerable from frame 22-61 as he ascends and spins. 62, the frame where he falls, is the frame he can grab ledges, I had to frame count to be sure because data sources differ.
 

Lavani

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I was gonna type a big wall on this, but recording didn't want to cooperate and I'm in a bit of a rush now...still want to address this.

I admire DK's arm intangibility, but it doesn't protect him from everything. We generally prefer recovering almost straight up since up is where our hitbox is the most disjointed (as disjointed as Mario coming at a 45 angle, both moves consistently traded with by late sex kicks).
I haven't really looked at Mario's hitboxes exactly, but Bowser I've researched for edgeguarding purposes and know he doesn't have any disjoint above him, at all. The hitbox is a cylinder around his body (not shell, body) that shrinks as the move continues, which gives him some disjoint below, but above it will cleanly lose to things that aren't spaced horribly.

I wanted to provide a gif of the move, but the hitboxes were shrinking/disappearing a few frames early and recording software wasn't cooperating, so here are pics of the middle hitbox instead. I got it working now, but I'll leave the other pics in the spoiler too.





I'm open to the idea I'm underselling it, but I don't see it on par with things in B tier. I can see the distance justifying C tier, but I still have a really low opinion of the move as it simply doesn't have the hitboxes to beat out things like Luma jab or Corrin sideB.

Also briefly want to defend Bowser Jr. in C. Like Kofu mentioned it's only non-tumble KB that prevents the car from returning, and Jr.'s also able to attack or airdodge starting from really early in the move. It can also be ledge canceled to increase the landing's safety, both drops an explosive and has a devastating hammer attack (that combo into each other!), and the hammer itself can be kill combo'd off of sideB among a couple other things to kill at low percents (~80%). Gimps from weak hits are a very real issue, but that's why it isn't A or B.
 
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Kofu

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I was actually not aware of Jr.'s Tumble clause. All the easy moves to hit him with are weak attacks with lots of active frames. It's still a glaring weakness and a large aspect of the MU. How to get him offstage -> How to knock him out side B -> How to intercept up B. Killing Jr as early as 20% isn't just possible, it's the plan.
Yeah, it's a huge problem with Jr.'s up-b but if you're approaching him to try to get him offstage early you're basically playing right into his hand. And Jr. players are going to be aware of that weakness and watching out for it. I still think its offensive/trapping merits should let it get C, D at the lowest, though.

As for Fire (it was an offhand comment since there's no business talking about customs here), it's startup is 9 and the windbox pushes them away from you. The other two lack windboxes, as you want them to actually hit. Heavy deals 16% damage, then 10 rather than Fire's 6 and has kill potential (still bad, but so's his general moveset for knockback). It improves Dthrow followups with late hit into aerials or a side B, adding 10% to whatever he typically gets without it. Jump I'm less enthusiastic about because it's not an optimal Dthrow followup with the lack of late hit, but it actually kills sooner than Heavy despite dealing just 12% damage. The KO power is comparable to Fsmash at the ledge and Usmash, and is safer than both to throw out. And has some tight combo windows that let it rival heavy for a bit. It's improved I frames allow it to recover better against edgeguards, but not as much as you might think just looking at the numbers. Default Fire lacks 90% of everything I've mentioned with only a low launch angle offstage to show for it. As for intangibility, Fire is 5-11, Heavy Trampoline is 5-13, and Trampoline Jump is 7-17. Fire has FAF of 41, Heavy is 29, Jump is 45
Huh. I don't know why I thought that Fire was frame 6. I was definitely wrong about Heavy Trampoline being slower than Fire. I'm still not entirely sold on it being definitively better than the default, though, despite its increased damage and KO potential. The reduced distance is noticeable during recovery and makes hit harder for him to successfully edgeguard a lot of characters (one of his greatest strengths). Truth be told I actually felt that Heavy Trampoline had a lot of potential back when customs were customary (and wondered if it had a better FAF like you've confirmed here). Even though it's one frame slower you usually aren't using Fire as an OoS punish but rather as a way to finish off combos and to snipe people out of fhe air. Additionally, I'm pretty sure Default Fire's invincibility matches Heavy Trampoline's.

This'll be the last I'll say on it (since, like you said, it's not what we're discussing) but Trampoline High Jump is probably the worst of the three despite its good KO potential. Its use as an OoS option is hindered by its slow speed (frames 12) and it can't be used to finish off combos or catch people from the air. It's also less safe as a close recovery option because it lacks a rising hitbox. Its main merit is that it grants G&W a good aerial kill move.
 
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