Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's Up+B should be above Mario's. Maybe not by a tier but the move is ridiculous and only loses out in distance but Mario would LOVE to have an Up+B like Doc's.

- Kills at 130% with like, no rage.
- Frame 3 OoS death to all who oppose
- Has more active frames than Mario's when rising
- Can be B-Reversed on hitlag to be made much safer and also use within strings. Kind of a neat trait.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Doc's Up+B should be above Mario's. Maybe not by a tier but the move is ridiculous and only loses out in distance but Mario would LOVE to have an Up+B like Doc's.

- Kills at 130% with like, no rage.
- Frame 3 OoS death to all who oppose
- Has more active frames than Mario's when rising
- Can be B-Reversed on hitlag to be made much safer and also use within strings. Kind of a neat trait.

I do agree that Doc's should be higher (definitely higher than Luigi), but maybe putting it above Mario is a stretch. It fails as a recovery move and it's not quite as effective as a combo breaker because it lacks invincibility on startup like Mario's does. What's more, because the sweetspot is at the beginning of the move, it all around sees less use than Mario's because it doesn't synch as well with the rest of his moveset.

Aside from that, I would move Roy's Blazer up to B tier. Although it is Bootleg Dolphin Slash, its decently fast startup, super armor, high power, and ability to confirm out of neutral air make it better than it's currently ranked.

I'm also kind of skeptical about Little Mac's Rising Uppercut being so low, but I don't play Mac.

 

[Kofu]

Blazer only has super armor when grounded. It should probably stay below Dolphin Slash, especially since it doesn't go as far.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Mii Gunner's up b should be at least be ahead of Robin's. Gunner's up b is very similar to Robin's up b in recovery, and they both get about the same distance. While Robin's up b has more projectiles, Mii Gunner's recovery is a better landing option because it allows gunner more mobility in the helpless state. In addition, Gunner can use Lunar cancelling as a way to land without landing lag (it will also allow Gunner to land with the lunar launch hitbox when timed properly. This can allow Gunner to get some combos at low percents).

 

[MarioMeteor]

Blazer only has super armor when grounded. It should probably stay below Dolphin Slash, especially since it doesn't go as far.

I didn't say it was better than Dolphin Slash, because it isn't, I'm saying it's better than C tier.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I do agree that Doc's should be higher (definitely higher than Luigi), but maybe putting it above Mario is a stretch. It fails as a recovery move and it's not quite as effective as a combo breaker because it lacks invincibility on startup like Mario's does. What's more, because the sweetspot is at the beginning of the move, it all around sees less use than Mario's because it doesn't synch as well with the rest of his moveset.

Aside from that, I would move Roy's Blazer up to B tier. Although it is Bootleg Dolphin Slash, its decently fast startup, super armor, high power, and ability to confirm out of neutral air make it better than it's currently ranked.

I'm also kind of skeptical about Little Mac's Rising Uppercut being so low, but I don't play Mac.

Doc's Up+B syncs perfectly well with his moveset. Uair > Up-B strings are literally his bread n butters at mid %, especially against fastfallers. It sees relatively similar usage to Mario's albeit in different scenarios (Mario usually tacks on dmg vertically, Doc does it horizontally).

Also the sweetspot at the beginning lasts for like, 3 frames and the hitbox is GIGANTIC. Move is seriously incredible.

 

[Seraphim.]

Blazer shouldn't be higher than C tier, it's one of Roy's best offensive moves but as an recovery it's lackluster.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Blazer shouldn't be higher than C tier, it's one of Roy's best offensive moves but as an recovery it's lackluster.

There's more to up specials than just recovery, you know. Dr. Mario says hi.

 

[ARGHETH]

It's important when considering B tier, though. Also, Doc has Tornado as another option, so his UpB's lack of Height isn't as much of a problem.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Blazer only has super armor when grounded. It should probably stay below Dolphin Slash, especially since it doesn't go as far.

The only thing i really like about Blazer is that you can angle it, combined with Roy's high top air speed I find him overall harder to gimp than I do Marcina, if he saves his jump anyways. If only his neutral wasn't complete garbage...

 

[Ropalme1914]

The only thing i really like about Blazer is that you can angle it, combined with Roy's high top air speed I find him overall harder to gimp than I do Marcina, if he saves his jump anyways. If only his neutral wasn't complete garbage...

Roy has garbage air acceleration, so even then he still is more easily gimped than Marcina.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Roy has garbage air acceleration, so even then he still is more easily gimped than Marcina.

Aerial acceleration doesn't affect Roy's initial airspeed, which is still faster than both Marth and Lucina's. If i'm not mistaken, its mainly an issue when trying to shift directions in the air, which is more of an issue in the neutral than offstage.

 

[kendikong]

Charizard's is simply not as good as Bowser either on the ground or in the air. I do like it's killing power, but it's vertical height is so pitiful and relevant for a character that falls this fast. Flare Blitz is a better recovery move and has armor toward the end, rather than beginning.

I agree Bowser's up B is a better grounded move, as charizard's up B is quite unsafe if it's whiffed. I use it very little as a zard main.

But it is by far, a much superior recovery than Bowser's. It is strong and has superarmor, which stops most edgeguard attempts. A good falcon can dair me like every time if I have to recover as Bowser, but as a Zard, I'd never get spiked. Travel speed is pretty fast, and it travels way higher than you'd think it does. If you try testing it out it actually recovers as high as Lucina's up B.

 

[Ropalme1914]

Aerial acceleration doesn't affect Roy's initial airspeed, which is still faster than both Marth and Lucina's. If i'm not mistaken, its mainly an issue when trying to shift directions in the air, which is more of an issue in the neutral than offstage.

Yes, it is an issue offstage, since if you are going to the ledge, you can't go back, so your movement will be very predictable. Combine that with only one move to recovery that has a bad hitbox, is not very fast and does not covers a very great distance, you have a potential bottom 10 recovery.

 

[FullMoon]

Don't forget that Roy has a high fall speed and gravity as well, which means he loses height significantly faster than Marth and Lucina when offstage.

 

[Crystanium]

Yes, Mario will reach. He can trade a small amount of vertical height for improved horizontal distance as well. All in All, Samus is extremely comparable to Mario in height, and distance with the aid of her floatiness. I think Mario and Samus are both right in A with how often they combo and even kill.

All I'm saying is that Samus has a bit more height than Mario, and she's mobile like Mario in terms of direction. I'd still put Samus above Mario just because of that and because her Up+B is a kill move. It's not like Mario's in that you have to lead your opponent upward and then use Up+B to kill. Samus' can just kill without any of that. The only factors that would determine death are either high damage on the opponent, or Samus' rage.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Why is Little Mac's up B in E tier? It's a great kill move, and he has a ton of setups into it. Move it to C tier at least.

A lot them are lending too much weight to their offensive use and ignoring their recovery use, even though they are not used offensively very often anyway. The biggest offenders of this are Charizard, Link, Toon Link, and Corrin, with Bowser and Roy also to a lesser extent. For the first four, it is very rare to see their up B's used as an actual attack, and as recoveries they are very mediocre (with Charizard's being just straight up terrible). The latter three are used as attacks more often than the first four, but still not enough to warrant how high they are placed when considering how terrible they are as recovery moves.

Luigi just makes no sense at all. His up B doesn't cover THAT much distance, and the sweetspot is not reliable to use offensively very often, so I can see no reason for it to be in A tier.

Why are R.O.B. and Olimar in the same tier as Duck Hunt when they are nearly identical, but R.O.B. and Olimar's cover way more distance and allow them to attack during the up B? Either move both of them up or move Duck Hunt down (I suggest the latter).

Wario's should be lower. It doesn't cover much distance and isn't very useful offensively.

Move Lucario up, it covers so much distance that it should be B tier. Dedede and Lucas should also be moved up one tier just because of how much distance they cover.

 

[kendikong]

Why is Little Mac's up B in E tier? It's a great kill move, and he has a ton of setups into it. Move it to C tier at least.
-I would say D, as a recovery, it's still bottom tier.

A lot them are lending too much weight to their offensive use and ignoring their recovery use, even though they are not used offensively very often anyway. The biggest offenders of this are Charizard, Link, Toon Link, and Corrin, with Bowser and Roy also to a lesser extent. For the first four, it is very rare to see their up B's used as an actual attack, and as recoveries they are very mediocre (with Charizard's being just straight up terrible). The latter three are used as attacks more often than the first four, but still not enough to warrant how high they are placed when considering how terrible they are as recovery moves.
-Refer to my previous post on Zard. I would say it's borderline B-C tier. (I think people just don't know how to use it so they write it off as bad. It has poor magnet hands horizontally, but has crazy magnet hands vertically above him)
-I would move the links down a tier. Loses to any kind of sex kick gimps and other kinds of gimps.
-Corrin is fine in C since it's pretty hard to intercept it.
-I don't know where I'd place Bowser, as a recovery it's garbage, but as an attack it's his best OOS option.
-Roy's is mediocre recovery/decent onstage use. I'd either keep it in C or move it down.

Luigi just makes no sense at all. His up B doesn't cover THAT much distance, and the sweetspot is not reliable to use offensively very often, so I can see no reason for it to be in A tier.

Why are R.O.B. and Olimar in the same tier as Duck Hunt when they are nearly identical, but R.O.B. and Olimar's cover way more distance and allow them to attack during the up B? Either move both of them up or move Duck Hunt down (I suggest the latter).

Wario's should be lower. It doesn't cover much distance and isn't very useful offensively.

Move Lucario up, it covers so much distance that it should be B tier. Dedede and Lucas should also be moved up one tier just because of how much distance they cover.
-Agreed with the rest. I would also move Ness up a tier or two for its use as an offensive option either to kill mad early or hit people offstage or trying to land.

 

[arbustopachon]

(with Charizard's being just straight up terrible)

It really isn't that bad of a recovery move. Similar vertical distance to Marcina plus it can be angled slightly. As said previously the move is armored and has a considerable disjoint in front giving it some protection against gimps. The move is also tied to a character with two mid air jumps and below average fall speed.
Personally i think it should be on C tho.

 

[TDK]

Spoiler: updates

Mario moved from S to A
Peach moved from S to C
Pikachu moved from A to lower A
Greninja moved from B to A
Corrin moved from C to D
Ness moved from E to C
Bowser moved from B to C
Yoshi moved from F to E (Even if it's great for spacing, it's still slow and eats your double jump if you don't use it before the egg)
Olimar moved from D to E
Duck Hunt moved from D to E
Mewtwo and Palutena switched places
Game & Watch moved from S to A
Charizard moved from B to D
Mii Brawler moved from D to E
Mii Swordfighter moved from D to E
Cloud moved from E to D
DK moved from E to D
Wario moved from C to D
Ike and Robin switch places
Luigi moved from A to B
Dr. Mario moved up to just below Mario
Roy moved from C to B
Lucario moved from C to B
Lucas moved from E to D

With that, the list now looks like this:

Any other issues with this?

 

[Ropalme1914]

I still think that Cloud should move to C considering that the Limit version is a pretty powerful kill move OoS and is intangible frame 5-12, but maybe it is just me.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Eh I'd say Corrin's Up B is probably better than Ike's. Not great still but it is overall safer as a recovery move and can sometimes have some OoS properties. Just doesn't have the stock lead suicide option built into it or the stage sharking.

Pika I'd keep at the top of A. Unlike the other Up Bs in that range, it can get a lot of on stage milage and against a number of characters is nearly as safe as a teleport Up B without some of the dead zones teleports can have. My gut also says Mario > Samus but its pretty darn close between those two.

Link and Roy I'd move down to C. Both are too bleh at actually recovering particularly with their higher gravities... fall speeds... uh... w/e aspect it is that makes them go down.

Cloud and Lucas I'd probably swap. Likewise I'd swap Ness and Diddy. Just feel those two recoveries end up losing to the PK boy's due to less on stage use.

Little Mac absolutely needs to stay right where he is. Horrible distance, not really auto-snapping, KOing ability ain't saving it.

 

[Lavani]

in E and below upBs like Wario, Wii Fit, Kirby, etc. is very bizarre to me. His upB gets great distance, he has 360° control over its movement, and he can attack out of it. Should be at least as high as ROB's, probably better at C since it's more similar to Villager but requires disposing of your pikmin for best results.

and maybe should move down to C. Tink's average as a recovery and has no value onstage, Link's is at least a decent OoS option but I don't see it in the same tier as the likes of Mewtwo, Palutena, or Villager.

deserves B~C, eggs are a versatile projectile that are both safe and serve as hitconfirms at higher percent thanks to Yoshi's air speed. Their horizontal recovery distance is quite good too and allows Yoshi to save his armored double jump until he's closer to the stage.

can move up to D for reasons I mentioned previously. That move has way too much going for it to be E.

 

[Ffamran]

Yoshi moved from F to E (Even if it's great for spacing, it's still slow and eats your double jump if you don't use it before the egg)

Uh, no it doesn't? Unless you mean when Yoshi uses Egg Toss during his double jump, then yeah, it'll "eat" his double jump. Otherwise, no, it doesn't eat his double jump if you use it before it; Yoshi can Egg Toss from a jump or while falling and double jump or double jump, wait for the double jump to finish, and then Egg Toss without it eating his double jump. Also, no, it's not slow. Frame 15 it's still pretty good, at worst, average since there are frame 11 projectiles. If you're talking about projectile speed, you can vary Egg Toss's throw strength. Tapping it leads to a slow, weak toss while holding it can lead to a medium-ish, average toss, or a strong, fast toss. I don't want to say this, but why do I get the feeling there's a bias against Yoshi's Egg Toss from you?

I still think that Cloud should move to C considering that the Limit version is a pretty powerful kill move OoS and is intangible frame 5-12, but maybe it is just me.

I'd agree with this. Without meter, it's at best, an average recovery move that can't ledge snap. If it could ledge snap, it would basically be a slightly worst Dolphin Slash as it would be slower and lacks I-frames, but has a second input hit that can allow Cloud to recover high in an interesting way. With meter, it's Dolphin Slash, but with much more vertical lift and either allows Cloud to keep his momentum or increases it sort of emulating how if you recover high with Rosalina's Launch Star, she can glide through the air quickly. The latter doesn't happen with Dolphin Slash (and meter-less Climhazzard); falling with Dolphin Slash locks Lucina and Marth's horizontal momentum.

Also, want to argue in favor for Wii Fit Trainer's Hoops to move up to C, but I don't know how since I don't play her. I would also want to argue in favor of Olimar and ROB's as well, but like WFT, I don't play them.

For Luigi, I'd argue against his Super Jump Punch since while it's strong, it's situational. It's one of the high risk, high reward moves and one of the few recovery moves to have +40 landing frames, a trait shared by Bayonetta through repeated uses of her Witch Twist and Afterburner Kick and Lucario depending on how you land with Extreme Speed. Bayonetta's landing lag with ranges from the average 19 with 1 Witch Twist or 20 with 1 Afterburner Kick to 43 with 2 Witch Twists and 2 Afterburner Kicks, Lucario's Extreme Speed can have 60 landing frames, and Luigi's Super Jump Punch has 68 landing frames.

sixriver's page on Lucario: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...CfC7Z8g1NZFU/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=1854757596.

sixriver's page on Luigi: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...1o5cdDHHP5s2I/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=194627698.

You take a massive risk when you use Luigi's SJP. Oh, but the landing lag doesn't matter if you don't land on-stage. Yeah, but you're not aiming for a deep SJP, right? That's even harder to land when you're dealing with a constantly moving, falling, target. You're better off using Luigi Cyclone to gimp than SJP to do anything off-stage. Reward's insane, yes, but the risk is very high. As a recovery move, it's not even great. It's got average, Mario's Super Jump Punch vertical lift, but it only moves up and locks Luigi's momentum, so he's definitely going to fall straight down and in a telegraphed way since Luigi flips upside down.

Last one since I have somewhere to go, Falco's Fire Bird should move down to F. It's a really crappy move that is the only Up Special that is just straight up an inferior Up Special to another character's, Fox's. No other character has to deal with that.

 

[arbustopachon]

I'd move Zard from D to C. I mean it's got better recovery distance than roy's while also having similar kill power.
The janky multihits keep it lower imho.

 

[kendikong]

Fox's Firefox has slow startup, is linear, and is easily interceptible. (B>D)

Link/TLink is too easy to intercept. (B>C)

Zard is armored and has travel equivalent to Lucina's. Also no reason for it to be in the same tier as DK (D>C)

DK. I don't know why it was moved to D. It is one of the easiest recoveries to exploit. (D>E)

Roy's up B is not great as a recovery move considering his low air acceleration and the move's poor height travel. Any multihits like Fox's fair, Pikachus bair or Mewtwo's Nair will send Roy way too low to recover from (B>C)

Bowser Jr. You can literally just jab or flamethrower before he grabs the ledge and he won't be able to use an up B again (C>D)

Wario. Is similar to Little Mac. Slightly better recovery distance, but not as good on stage use as Little Mac's (D>E)

Dedede. Not safe on stage, but has tremendous height and speed for low recoveries (E>D)

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Friendly reminder to testers that some Up Bs behave differently on the ground than on the air. For instance Little Mac traveling much less with his in the air, Samus reaches max height much slower from the air compared to ground, and Luigi's Up B travels slightly higher from the air. These are the only ones I know besides obvious examples of getting a different move entirely like Bowser and DK.

Also, want to argue in favor for Wii Fit Trainer's Hoops to move up to C, but I don't know how since I don't play her. I would also want to argue in favor of Olimar and ROB's as well, but like WFT, I don't play them.

Last one since I have somewhere to go, Falco's Fire Bird should move down to F. It's a really crappy move that is the only Up Special that is just straight up an inferior Up Special to another character's, Fox's. No other character has to deal with that.

WFT's definitely has above average recovery distance with mashing, that is, higher than the ocean of recovery heights around Mario's that litter each of the tiers. But I don't like the lack of protection above her. The highest hitbox is at or just below the highest hoop, but her arms and head are still exposed for all of the move. Recover into somebody on the top battlefield platform in slow motion to see. And the knockback is so amazingly low there's no use for the move besides reaching that ledge. The opponent needs about 90% damage before the move forces tumble, so no missed stage techs until then when they screw up an edgeguard. And even with a missed tech, the distance they'd fly afterward isn't long enough to even kill a Little Mac that still has double jump. D is appropriate for her. As for Falco, I think you may be way too harsh. It, too, beats Mario-level recoveries, has 360 degree angles to choose from and a hitbox for all of its flight. That's three reasons why it's better than 90% of E tier (the one holdout being Yoshi, who is certainly proving complicated to place but still doesn't belong that low.).


I agree completely that Luigi is still unnecessarily high. It's one of the absolute worst in terms of height and definitely distance. For the air version increase, I would describe Luigi's height difference as about half his character height, which brings it pretty precisely to Doc's height when Doc angles high, though I'm having trouble getting a good test since Luigi takes so many more frames of falling before he ascends compared to Doc. Also, the KO power is cut considerably from the air. With no DI, the grounded version kills Mario at 60% on FD, and 112% from the air, though naturally the air version will be used at higher altitudes than the ground, I'd certainly like to make this point all the same for those that forgot. Plus we've already discussed how it doesn't work OoS with Luigi's lack of traction, so it's relegated to punishing various dodges and as a Dthrow followup that's susceptible to DI and optimal and inescapable for very few matchups and % ranges. And the 68 frames special landing lag really inflates the risk in missing the sweetspot with the attack. I love frame 8 kill moves, but this move is not reliable enough to be B material. Especially if actually reliable moves like Bowser deserve C

Link/TLink is too easy to intercept. (B>C)

Agreed, but Tink most of all as the move doesn't actually take him higher than Links if you compare them. Tink's general recovery is only better thanks to better air stats and better double jump. Link's is also capable of killing better from the air and especially from the ground. Link's aerial swings don't have three active hit frames each like Tink's, but he has better sword length which further helps the OoS use and recovery. If it were up to me, I'd move Tink to C for sure, but keep Link there since B tier is still a collection of moves with considerable flaws or few applications.

Edit: It has just occured to me that Tink's three active frames per swing is to cover a single swing in front and behind, while Link's Up B has separate hitboxes for front and back hits. So really, Link's is better in every way that I can think of. Air and Ground.

 

[Ffamran]

Friendly reminder to testers that some Up Bs behave differently on the ground than on the air. For instance Little Mac traveling much less with his in the air, Samus reaches max height much slower from the air compared to ground, and Luigi's Up B travels slightly higher from the air. These are the only ones I know besides obvious examples of getting a different move entirely like Bowser and DK.

WFT's definitely has above average recovery distance with mashing, that is, higher than the ocean of recovery heights around Mario's that litter each of the tiers. But I don't like the lack of protection above her. The highest hitbox is at or just below the highest hoop, but her arms and head are still exposed for all of the move. Recover into somebody on the top battlefield platform in slow motion to see. And the knockback is so amazingly low there's no use for the move besides reaching that ledge. The opponent needs about 90% damage before the move forces tumble, so no missed stage techs until then when they screw up an edgeguard. And even with a missed tech, the distance they'd fly afterward isn't long enough to even kill a Little Mac that still has double jump. D is appropriate for her. As for Falco, I think you may be way too harsh. It, too, beats Mario-level recoveries, has 360 degree angles to choose from and a hitbox for all of its flight. That's three reasons why it's better than 90% of E tier (the one holdout being Yoshi, who is certainly proving complicated to place but still doesn't belong that low.).

I think ZSS's Boost Kick has a high difference too... Grounded travels a bit lower than aerial.

For WFT, I'm thinking about it in terms of how hers interacts with her off-stage since she can stall with Header and in general, her off-stage ability is pretty good. The problem, is like I said, I don't play WFT, so I can't say much, but I feel like it could be in C, except I can't explain it.

For Falco, I'm harsh on him in general. Good or bad, I'm always going to play the bad guy against him despite him being a character I genuinely like playing in the Smash series. On Fire Bird, it barely beats Mario-level recoveries which isn't much when those Mario-level recoveries launch at worst, half its startup, and when you consider the other 43 frame launch recovery, Fire Fox, definitely beats Mario-level recoveries as it matches Palutena's Teleport, Rosalina's Launch Star, and almost Zelda's Farore's Wind. Having a hitbox throughout its flight is great an all, but the hitbox is tiny; it's only on his head. Getting hit by it isn't a threat as it will never realistically KO and it's unreliable. Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's lack hitboxes throughout theirs, but there is a threat if you get caught or hit. The only edge it really has over the others in E-tier is that it can launch in 360 degrees, but it's linear and going to be slower in startup and movement than the other linear E-ranked Up Specials. Sheer speed can make them less predictable than a slower, but angleable recovery move. The ones that aren't linear, Duck Hunt and Olimar's, are at least flexible since they don't really have to commit to one direction. They also can at least cover their Up Specials with arcing and linear projectiles unlike Falco who only has a high recovery, linear projectile and Reflector.

Fire Bird is already in E because it's slow in startup and movement, linear, non-threatening as it is unreliable as an attack, has poor hitboxes, and has no real KO potential, and it locks Falco's momentum while falling. Arguing if it should be in E-tier or F-tier doesn't really make a difference. It's just my main gripe about it is that for everything that's good about it or rather, for its existence, it and Distant Fire Bird are both only inferior to Fire Fox and Twisting Fox. No move should just straight up be an inferior version to another character's even if they're a joke character. At least give them something like a tiny sweet-spot that murders people... Fire Bird is not only a bad move which puts it in E-tier, but it fails as a move from a game design point which for me, makes it F-tier. The other E-tiers are at least functioning in what they do and don't manage to be inferior versions to another character's move. Fire Bird functions, but as an inferior version to Fox's Fire Fox. It's not like looking at Mewtwo and Palutena's Teleport or Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's different Dives and seeing contrasting strengths and weaknesses, but just seeing Fox's Fire Fox do everything better than Falco's Fire Bird. If Falco's Fire Bird was Fast Fire Bird or Wolf's Fire Wolf and it was still pretty bad, it would at least have faster startup to claim over Fire Fox than being a multi-hitting Fire Fox with shorter distance, lower travel speed, lower horizontal momentum when falling, significantly lower KO potential, lower reliablility, and worse hitboxes. Can you really say that for any other derived or similar move? Different pros and cons not no pros and only cons.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

For WFT, I'm thinking about it in terms of how hers interacts with her off-stage since she can stall with Header and in general, her off-stage ability is pretty good. The problem, is like I said, I don't play WFT, so I can't say much, but I feel like it could be in C, except I can explain it.

WFT never gets further than 2 feet from the ledge. Cut the height potential in half and she'll play the same way with the same risks and rewards. Her other specials are the real game changing moves that make offstage play optimal with great FAF, healing, or cancels into shield/dodges. Neutral B and Down B have all three of those things. As for ROB, I'm not a fan. Attacking between thrusts is cool, but boosting upward is slow and exposes his arms to any move that can reach under the ledge, even before the 2 frame window. The only viable aerial to use during Up B is Uair, but unless you're at full speed they'll fall out as ROB falls. I do like it's niche as a stall tool for further Uair juggles, but should only get you one additional shot at them. Olimar's also lets you aerial, but we know his aerials can't beat or trade anything except Nair, so it's a debatable means of protecting a no-hitbox recovery. He enters free fall after the aerial animation ends. You can cancel the recovery without attacking into the same free fall that will have 30 special landing lag, or let the pikmin place you on the ground for a shorter 19 frames (still worse than three aerials, especially since AC windows still work). Like ROB it runs on fuel, and its travel speed (and thus recovery distance) depends on how many pikmin you have. At max fuel and three pikmin it will reach higher than the Mario level recoveries. At no pikmin, it rivals Villagers.

I don't think Zelda is A material. Teleport Recoveries are great, but her kill confirm isn't reliable. Only connecting properly at high % to begin with, and totally susceptible to DI to avoid the reappearance or at least avoid death with the sourspot hit. Human players make unintended DI inputs for the entire match (if you're pushing the control stick left or right for movement or an attack, it's a DI input), so this move successfully getting a kill is certainly rare. Plus she has no movement during free fall, nor can she preserve momentum left or right after reappearance. Finally, there's a window about half way through the teleport where she won't ledge snap, which will result in bouncing off to her death or just reappearing like a goon high above the ledge for an easy punish.

 

[Masonomace]

Tbh, I'm kinda confused about all this now. Some points:

• The only reason people are actually rating Charizard's Fly move low, is because the magnet hands for it is terrible. Otherwise, the move is not that bad as it's being rated.
  
• Like what Zapp Branniglenn mentioned in his post that I read on this page, Up-Bs act differently with vertical height depending on whether the move is used grounded or airborne. This may not sound like a deal-breaker, but Little Mac is a huge example. So Up-Bs that are more well-rounded going the same vertical height regardless of position should get some kind of second thought to a ranking.
  
• The mechanics & applications to a singular Up-B shouldn't be ranked solely on just recovery, an OoS option, or an offensive option. If it only excels well in one or two ways, it shouldn't be ranked that high with the greater Up-Bs in the grand scheme.
• Additional variables that tie in with the Up-B's performance such as Aura, Monado arts, Pikmin amount, or required mashing, these points shouldn't be not accounted for from holding back the move's maximum potential. Let these variables be included with the full package.
• The move's recovery archetype really matters to the ranking. Per-say if it's an Up-B that excels high in being a recovery-based move, but then has no hitbox or or presence to challenge against edge-guard-breaking, then it shouldn't be ranked that greatly.

That said, I'ma give my brief thoughts on a few characters:

• 's Extremespeed deserves B tier or higher. You can't tell me this move is C tier or lower if you haven't kept in mind of the move's full kit, especially with Aura playing a great role here. Recovery potential skyrockets through the roof, the hitbox is there during the travel, & it snaps to the ledge when controlled properly. On the right stage, you can CLING to wall stages & not have the need of using your doublejump at times. One might argue that the atrocious landing lag should really hurt its ranking, but that can be alleviated & solved with the right way to aim your joystick down & towards the stage so that you only suffer the minimum lag. The move can also be guided & the direction can be reversed, so that the hitbox that usually sends them one way will have the opponent launched in the opposite direction. This completely changes the game pace from Disadvantage to Advantage if you connect the attack.
• 's Egg Throw comes off as a D or E tier move when looking at the small picture, but you can't do that. You have to look at the move from a bigger picture, so from me the move deserves C or B. This move gets at least 2 decent uses for recovery purpose, & the last two are for hovering & drifting to maintain a rainbow recovery sort-of pattern. The projectile formed is amazing as it can keep Yoshi semi-protected from direct approaches in attempt to edge-guard him, as well as providing a strong setup into other moves such as the famous Egg Throw at the ledge reading a ledge-option into Forward air meteor smashing them to the oblivion. So this is what I mean. . .the move is used in multiple ways for Yoshi, not just a few ways.
  
• 's Air Slash like I said, deserves higher than D tier. The move is hype to the max man! Air Slash gets at least a B tier rating from me because it's a multi-purpose attack that acts as a moderately useful OoS option, combo finisher, kill option, edge-guard wall, decently great recovery ability, & neat utility. I mean heck, the first hit's range is wonderful as well as the second hit's range. You have the option to delay the second hit in order to optimally recovery horizontally AND vertically when you know you can't reach from just going deep low. This delay ability also is used for when you combo finish and or kill with & when you need delay to drift backwards to inch closer to the ledge so that you live when you feel you can't make it back. When opponents DI towards you to try avoiding the second hit, you can drift backwards & delay the attack to prevent this from happening. Off-stage, this move with Jump art literally bullies most characters in the game & will not allow passage because of their mediocre or telegraphed recovery pattern to try making it to stage. Moves similar to but not exactly to Air Slash such as Dolphin Slash & Aether have some kind of perk to them that would seem to have them ranked higher than Air Slash, but this move simply has more options & choices to work with. Honestly, this move doesn't get any higher rating from me because of the startup being frame 10, & that the snap has to be done properly & accurately to be on the same level as other Up-Bs.

 

[PK Gaming]

If the list is ordered then Robin's Up B can definitely stand to move down, possibly even into E-tier.

The move has near nonexistent utility onstage, very easy to intercept due to how linear it is, and it can even run out (though this is rare, especially after the Wind Jab nerf).

 

[Routa]

Tink's and Link's Up-Bs aren't as bad as people say. Yeah they are very weak to any attack from above. Their Up-Bs are great as OoS moves and they can easily hit a fool who ia too close to the ledge by holding the control stick down after inputting the Up-B to avoid ledge snap. While Tink's Up-B does kill OoS, it still throws foes away which Tink wants. I would say both are C tier material. Same goes for Swordspider's Hero's Spin. It trades some of its range to higher kill power which makes it excellent kill move OoS. Too bad well spaced disjointed move can avoid being punished by Hero's Spin. Oh well... At least he has set ups for it *cough* Chakram *cough*

Also Gunner's Up-b1 is pretty much like Jr.'s Up-b. Instead of being able to use aerial out of it, he has superior aerial momentum in the freefall state. It isn't so easy to catch. I could see it moving to D tier. It isn't as bad as you would think.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Fox's Firefox has slow startup, is linear, and is easily interceptible. (B>D)

People always say this regarding Fox's up B, but they forget that it covers an insane amount of distance. Fox can pretty much recover from the bottom blastzone of Smashville using only up B. It's ridiculous. If he recovers very close to the stage, the all he really has to worry about is being stage spiked, which he can just tech. As a bonus, it's also a super stylish kill move at the top of the stage. It should stay in B tier, with C tier being the absolute minimum. Definitely not D tier.

The rest of your post I agree with besides moving Charizard up. He should stay where he is.

If the list is ordered then Robin's Up B can definitely stand to move down, possibly even into E-tier.

The move has near nonexistent utility onstage, very easy to intercept due to how linear it is, and it can even run out (though this is rare, especially after the Wind Jab nerf).

I think the main thing saving Robin from E tier is that it actually covers a decent amount of distance, and has utility as a good spike. It's definitely on the border of D and E, but it should stay in D.

For that matter, King Dedede should also be moved up to D tier as well, and Olimar should be moved up to C.

And I just realized that we would have way too many characters in D tier, so maybe we actually should bump up some of the better ones in D tier. The changes I would make to D tier are:

Move Charizard to C.
Move R.O.B. to C.
Move Bowser Jr. to D.
Move Corrin to C.
Move King Dedede to D.
Move Wii Fit Trainer to C.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Move Peach's UpB to A
It comes out fast, has a good disjoint so it's hard to beat, and the knock back on it especially with rage is insane and it can be comboes Into for possible kills.

As a recovery move it's mostly ok. The verticals distance is meh, but the disjoint and speed makes it hard to beat from above and it can hit well above stage before she reaches the ledge.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Tbh, I'm kinda confused about all this now. Some points:

• The only reason people are actually rating Charizard's Fly move low, is because the magnet hands for it is terrible. Otherwise, the move is not that bad as it's being rated.
  
• Like what Zapp Branniglenn mentioned in his post that I read on this page, Up-Bs act differently with vertical height depending on whether the move is used grounded or airborne. This may not sound like a deal-breaker, but Little Mac is a huge example. So Up-Bs that are more well-rounded going the same vertical height regardless of position should get some kind of second thought to a ranking.
  
• The mechanics & applications to a singular Up-B shouldn't be ranked solely on just recovery, an OoS option, or an offensive option. If it only excels well in one or two ways, it shouldn't be ranked that high with the greater Up-Bs in the grand scheme.
• Additional variables that tie in with the Up-B's performance such as Aura, Monado arts, Pikmin amount, or required mashing, these points shouldn't be not accounted for from holding back the move's maximum potential. Let these variables be included with the full package.
• The move's recovery archetype really matters to the ranking. Per-say if it's an Up-B that excels high in being a recovery-based move, but then has no hitbox or or presence to challenge against edge-guard-breaking, then it shouldn't be ranked that greatly.

That said, I'ma give my brief thoughts on a few characters:

• 's Extremespeed deserves B tier or higher. You can't tell me this move is C tier or lower if you haven't kept in mind of the move's full kit, especially with Aura playing a great role here. Recovery potential skyrockets through the roof, the hitbox is there during the travel, & it snaps to the ledge when controlled properly. On the right stage, you can CLING to wall stages & not have the need of using your doublejump at times. One might argue that the atrocious landing lag should really hurt its ranking, but that can be alleviated & solved with the right way to aim your joystick down & towards the stage so that you only suffer the minimum lag. The move can also be guided & the direction can be reversed, so that the hitbox that usually sends them one way will have the opponent launched in the opposite direction. This completely changes the game pace from Disadvantage to Advantage if you connect the attack.
• 's Egg Throw comes off as a D or E tier move when looking at the small picture, but you can't do that. You have to look at the move from a bigger picture, so from me the move deserves C or B. This move gets at least 2 decent uses for recovery purpose, & the last two are for hovering & drifting to maintain a rainbow recovery sort-of pattern. The projectile formed is amazing as it can keep Yoshi semi-protected from direct approaches in attempt to edge-guard him, as well as providing a strong setup into other moves such as the famous Egg Throw at the ledge reading a ledge-option into Forward air meteor smashing them to the oblivion. So this is what I mean. . .the move is used in multiple ways for Yoshi, not just a few ways.
  
• 's Air Slash like I said, deserves higher than D tier. The move is hype to the max man! Air Slash gets at least a B tier rating from me because it's a multi-purpose attack that acts as a moderately useful OoS option, combo finisher, kill option, edge-guard wall, decently great recovery ability, & neat utility. I mean heck, the first hit's range is wonderful as well as the second hit's range. You have the option to delay the second hit in order to optimally recovery horizontally AND vertically when you know you can't reach from just going deep low. This delay ability also is used for when you combo finish and or kill with & when you need delay to drift backwards to inch closer to the ledge so that you live when you feel you can't make it back. When opponents DI towards you to try avoiding the second hit, you can drift backwards & delay the attack to prevent this from happening. Off-stage, this move with Jump art literally bullies most characters in the game & will not allow passage because of their mediocre or telegraphed recovery pattern to try making it to stage. Moves similar to but not exactly to Air Slash such as Dolphin Slash & Aether have some kind of perk to them that would seem to have them ranked higher than Air Slash, but this move simply has more options & choices to work with. Honestly, this move doesn't get any higher rating from me because of the startup being frame 10, & that the snap has to be done properly & accurately to be on the same level as other Up-Bs.

Lets not mention the grab release combo on puff with up b or ASOOS amrite

 

[Flamegeyser]

Your list is pretty accurate, however I would switch Pika with Sheik. Sheiks has the full invincibility when recovering above the ledge, but she can't always do that. Also, it's sort of slow on the ground, and has no more 50/50's thanks to 1.1.5. Meanwhile, Pika's up b gives him almost broken mobility and stage control, and although it can't kill, it's one of his most important moves, and a key component to his neutral.

TLDR Pika to S and Sheik to A.

EDIT: Wait, Ness' is higher than Lucas'? I mean I know Ness' more easily, and the projectile power of PK Thunder 1 can pressure opponents, but Lucas' also has greater range, less susceptibility to getting gimped, more control when he becomes helpless, and only hitboxes that gimp, essentially (okay that might not be right). But if anything, I think they should be in the same tier.

 

[Fenny]

Bayonetta's is way to easily SDIed now and is more of a "get off me" option than a combo tool

It's an amazing OoS option due to being frame 4, the main reason as to why Bayo's recovery is so stellar, reverse Up B offstage can force opponents too far away from the stage to recover and even if you manage to SDI out of her first WTwist on reaction it's most likely gonna throw you above her, which is where she wants you to be anyway. Even then, it's frame 4, so SDI-ing out of it consistently is hardly a guarantee if the Bayo player has a decent mix up game. Not to mention the fact that used near the upper blast line people can SDI to their deaths, especially on that second WTwist.

It's overall usefulness in so many areas easily makes it one of the best in the game, even after the nerfs.

 

[Flamegeyser]

It's an amazing OoS option due to being frame 4, the main reason as to why Bayo's recovery is so stellar, reverse Up B offstage can force opponents too far away from the stage to recover and even if you manage to SDI out of her first WTwist on reaction it's most likely gonna throw you above her, which is where she wants you to be anyway. Even then, it's frame 4, so SDI-ing out of it consistently is hardly a guarantee if the Bayo player has a decent mix up game. Not to mention the fact that used near the upper blast line people can SDI to their deaths, especially on that second WTwist.

It's overall usefulness in so many areas easily makes it one of the best in the game, even after the nerfs.

Most up b's share the purpose of recovering. Some special few can also kill under the right circumstance. Bayonetta's combos, gimps, gives safe burst mobility, gives her a stellar recovery, and provides an excellent OOS option. A lot of top players, it seems, don't encounter enough bayo's to give SDI'ing a lot of thought, however even the one's that do probably can't do it on reaction, since we've got more options than just WTw. Even when they can, we can also perform a deadly mixup if they decide to SDI up, as we're able to do WTw twice, and if that fails, they'll be above us for a jump uair if we perform the tech that allows us for a jump after WTw2, meaning early kills if they do that. Thanks to it's variability, I totally agree that WTw is S tier.

 

[TDK]

Too tired to do a full update list, but here's the new list.

Also, to Ffamran , Falco's Up-B actually does go up, therefore keeping out of the F tier with Jiggs.

 

[Flamegeyser]

View attachment 112224
Too tired to do a full update list, but here's the new list.

Also, to Ffamran , Falco's Up-B actually does go up, therefore keeping out of the F tier with Jiggs.

Excellent list, but can someone explain to me why Ness's is higher than Lucas's?