Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[medofbr]

Marth Lucina, and Roy's Nairs are powerrful approach and combo tools and need to be higher. they are hard to punish and come out very quickly
don't believe me watch sethlon play roy.

samus is rate to highly as her Nair is not fast enough and is harder to hit than it looks.

 

[Funbot28]

A new list incoming:

Spoiler

TL;DR:
A -> S
B -> A
B -> A
A -> B
A -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
D -> B
C -> B
D -> C (fire emblem one)
B -> C
B -> C
:4g&w: D -> C
C -> D

 

[Wintermelon43]

.....What the heck?

Kirby and Mega Man should defitenly be C, Mega Man could probably be B too.

 

[Furret24]

should definitely be in atleast B tier. It's such a powerful combo tool. It does 17%, has decent range, it's a good landing option that can lead into various moves, and has pretty low landing lag (12 frames).

and should both be A tier. They can break combos, do good damage, linger, and can kill reliably. is the same, but doesn’t kill. It should still atleast be C or B tier imo.

If the Mario's are in A tier, and should be too, as they serve the same purpose. Villager's definitely should, as it's also frame 3. And has faster interruptibility.

should definitely go down a tier. The initial hitbox is fairly powerful, but the hitbox is tiny. It also has fairly high landing lag. Especially for a sex kick.

 

[TriTails]

Ganon's should be a bit higher. N-air is very useful as SHFF option as it has fairly low landing lag compared to his other aerials. Out of a D-throw, it deals a whooping 26%. That's like 1/3rd of percents where he can start killing you. It's a decent move to throw out in neutral and hits in the front reliably (Something F-air can't do without landing lag). Edgeguarding is when this thing becomes ********. I don't think it's particularly bad against shields either.

Doc's N-air should be lower IMO. Not only the reverse sex kick thing makes it weak as an OoS option, but this means you'll have to hit with the late hit to deal its strongest hitbox. While useful offstage, it's outshined by Nado and onstage, it can't be abused as well as Mario's or Luigi's due to the fact Doc's mobility is often too weak, and it's just too weak to be used OoS safely for a larger range of percent.

Sure, it breaks combos... for 5.6% at frame 3, and the later hitbox is unlikely to combo into anything either.

Feel free to correct me if anyone notices something odd tho.

 

[adom4]

Ganon's should be a bit higher. N-air is very useful as SHFF option as it has fairly low landing lag compared to his other aerials. Out of a D-throw, it deals a whooping 26%. That's like 1/3rd of percents where he can start killing you. It's a decent move to throw out in neutral and hits in the front reliably (Something F-air can't do without landing lag). Edgeguarding is when this thing becomes ********. I don't think it's particularly bad against shields either.

Doc's N-air should be lower IMO. Not only the reverse sex kick thing makes it weak as an OoS option, but this means you'll have to hit with the late hit to deal its strongest hitbox. While useful offstage, it's outshined by Nado and onstage, it can't be abused as well as Mario's or Luigi's due to the fact Doc's mobility is often too weak, and it's just too weak to be used OoS safely for a larger range of percent.

Sure, it breaks combos... for 5.6% at frame 3, and the later hitbox is unlikely to combo into anything either.

Feel free to correct me if anyone notices something odd tho.

I think Ganon's Nair is fine at C, the first hit doesn't do enough stun to make it that useful as a SHFF option.

 

[th3lazy]

I think Puff should definitely move up to at least B tier on this list. Her nair is a very solid edgeguarding tool for her to use. It sends her foes to a worser angle to recover from if they are hit by it, and it lasts a long enough time to catch airdodges.

In addition, it is one of the best nairs to catch the two frame punish on ledge grabbing. With her aerial mobility and general floatiness, she is able to just camp at the ledge waiting for the player to aim for the ledge.

Although, I wouldn't rank it any higher on the list because it is not exactly the greatest poke for Puff to just casually throw out, as it doesn't have that much range to contest other aerials in the game. A lot of aerials either beat it or force a trade, in which Puff can not afford due to her weight. In addition, as a sex kick nair, it's pretty slow compared to other nairs (6 frames compared to 3 frame nairs from Sheik, the Mario bros., etc.) and isn't as great a combo breaker like other nairs.

I think that's all there is to her nair. If anyone has more input on her nair, feel free to correct me if my info is wrong.

 

[Nysyr]

Lol.

Lucario NAir D -> A

It's decently fast at F8, hella disjointed, lowest landing lag of all NAirs. It doesn't need to AC after the hitbox due to the hitlag soaking up frames from only the 9 that it has, and ACs if you dont get the hitbox out.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Lol.

Lucario NAir D -> A

It's decently fast at F8, hella disjointed, lowest landing lag of all NAirs. It doesn't need to AC after the hitbox due to the hitlag soaking up frames from only the 9 that it has, and ACs if you dont get the hitbox out.

I don't agree at all with A, otherwise you'd be seeing Lucario mains use it for most of their air time. They don't. And it's the second lowest landing lag after Ryu. Plus the visuals don't match the hitbox at all. It looks like the attacks strikes in front and behind for the whole animation, but is really four frames in front, no hitbox for ten, then ten frames in back. And the long amount of frames you get for the second hit are placed too high to rely on for a grounded target. The base knockback is too low to rely on the low knockback angle for edgeguarding, much less killing on its own. And it lacks the combo potential of any kind, and it sounds like you're under the impression the move has some built in lag cancel technique on hit? It doesn't.

I think Puff should definitely move up to at least B tier on this list.

I agree. It's not so much the move itself but how Jigglypuff floats that makes the aerial valuable. All her aerials should rank at least B, except Uair which is a difficult and slow hitbox to work with and is only valuable for a risky rest setup on landing.

I notice that in the Uair chart, Lucina and Marth are separated but now with Lucina a rank higher instead of lower. I'm the only one that suggest hers is better in some small way, but followed the reasoning with "but it's not importent", and it isn't. Seriously, the attacks are not different enough to warrant separation in any way, and she should be put down to where Marth is. Or Marth up to her, it's a tough call between the two tiers with great disjoint, some kill potential, and quick startup

 

[williamsga555]

Actually arguing the opposite of a poster on the last page, thinking Dedede's nair should be higher.

Yes, it's unsafe on shield, but it's a pretty great tool all around, especially for a character like D3.

• 12% fresh when sweet-spotted
• Sour-spot leads to followups pretty late, including a confirm into u-air around ~100%
• F8, while not being quite fast enough to be a combo breaker, is still pretty quick for the amount of damage it does.
• It's the only other sexkick aerial on a multi-jumper (along with Jiggly's nair) in the entire cast.

If it were just a touch faster it'd very likely be high-B/low-A territory. As it stands I think it belongs somewhere in mid-to-low B.

==========

Roy's nair being C-tier is criminal. For the record I think Marth and Lucina's are also too low. All three of them get incredible mileage out of those moves.

==========

Last comment is that I have no idea what Bowser's nair is doing in B tier. Move is slow, unreliable, and wicked unsafe to land with. It does decent damage if multiple hits connect, but that's the only selling point. Move needs to be considerably lower, imo.

 

[th3lazy]

I just realized that a majority of A tier are filled with characters that have sex kick nairs. The issue I have with this is that it seems like the only reason that most of them are only up there solely for being an extremely solid combo breaker. While that is a fantastic trait for a move to have, I don't think it justifies rating it highly. Imo, I think a move has to have more than just one use to be deemed great.

Take Fox's nair, for example. Not only is it a combo breaker (4 Frames), but it also is one of the main parts of Fox's combo game, as it leads into many of Fox's other combo starters or KO moves.

Another example would be Ryu's nair, which serves a similar purpose to Fox's, being a combo breaker, starting up some of his combos, with an addition of having incredibly low landing lag compared to every other nair in the game. (I personally think this should also be S).

There may be something I am missing here about the sex kick nairs, but as of right now, I don't think just being a combo breaker is a good enough justification for instant A tier.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so new list incoming:

Spoiler

TL;DR:
A -> S
A -> B
B -> A
C -> A
B -> A
A -> B
C -> B
C -> B
B -> C
B -> C
D -> C
D -> C
E -> D

 

[CitrusJelly]

There's a thing for this on Smashboards?

I do the same thing on Reddit.

 

[Goombo]

Why is Mac now in the same tier with actually usable nairs like Robins'?

I can't really speak for the usefulness of the other ones in that tier (mainly if they have a place in their charakters gameplan like it is in Robins case or not) but in vacuum comparision all of them (no idea of Gunner tbh) are much better than Macs so it doesn't really seem fair to see them in the last tier.

 

[TriTails]

I think Ganon's Nair is fine at C, the first hit doesn't do enough stun to make it that useful as a SHFF option.

I was thinking more on late second hit + range. Yes, it may not be safe on shield, but Ganon has a fast SHFF that you can either tomahawk them or D-tilt if they're being too greedy. The range coupled with lingering hitbox keeps some characters out nicely and it's Ganon's only decent move for spacing and hitting forward in midair.

Or maybe it's just Luigi traction thing.

And yes, why is Mac's N-air is on the same tier as actually functional N-airs like DK, Jr, and Robin? I do realize it's the absolutely fastest aerial in the game in both startup and FAF, but let's have a look at its range and damage. The move isn't very useful in Mac's kit either (I think the only notable 'probably not the worse' aerial Mac has is D-air because it jab locks into Mac's powerful smashes) IIRC.

 

[Routa]

*looks at the list of Uairs*
*sees Mii Gunner In D tier*
Now where did I put that bottle of bleach?

I'm not sure why people think that this move which basically cannot be airdodged due to how long it stays active and how big the hitboxes are is bad. It might not be the greatest killing move, but boi is it good in catching people landing. It is sad that I missed the Uair part, but Gunner's Uair should never be placed in D tier.

As for Nairs I would say that Diddy's Nair is too high. There is a reason why you don't see it being used.

As for Miis I agree with the Nair placings, but I disagree on Gunner's and Swordspider's Uair placings. Both are amazing moves. Like others have pointed out Swordspider's Uair is one of the strongest Uairs in game. Also you can landing Uair into Uair at lower % if I remember correctly. What keeps Swordspider's Uair being broken is the mobility of Swordspider. But in Vacuum the move is A tier material.

 

[adom4]

I was thinking more on late second hit + range. Yes, it may not be safe on shield, but Ganon has a fast SHFF that you can either tomahawk them or D-tilt if they're being too greedy. The range coupled with lingering hitbox keeps some characters out nicely and it's Ganon's only decent move for spacing and hitting forward in midair.

Or maybe it's just Luigi traction thing.

And yes, why is Mac's N-air is on the same tier as actually functional N-airs like DK, Jr, and Robin? I do realize it's the absolutely fastest aerial in the game in both startup and FAF, but let's have a look at its range and damage. The move isn't very useful in Mac's kit either (I think the only notable 'probably not the worse' aerial Mac has is D-air because it jab locks into Mac's powerful smashes) IIRC.

Mac's Nair has a niche in being the fastest aerial in the game (frame 2), it can combo break somewhat & it has some footstool shenanigans, i'd say it's enough to keep it at D.

 

[Bowserboy3]

In case others have not mentioned, Marth's Tipper Nair is the strongest Nair in the game. Just putting that out there...

Also, Lucina's Nair, is actually stronger than Roy's, and it KO's around 10% earlier... poor Roy.

 

[warionumbah2]

Roy can combo Nair into itself or into Fair. Chaining 2 Sweetspot Nairs deals 28%.

The reward he gains from this move alone is overall is solid.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Roy can combo Nair into itself or into Fair. Chaining 2 Sweetspot Nairs deals 28%.

The reward he gains from this move alone is overall is solid.

Correct, you are right.

However, for me, what's the point of racking up all that damage reliably when you can't KO safely, let alone approach safely without being punished? Roy's combo potential is hindered by these two points alone.

Of course that is getting deep into the character specifics, so yeah... those aside, the move looks better on paper, so I can see why it might be better on that basis.

 

[warionumbah2]

However, for me, what's the point of racking up all that damage reliably when you can't KO safely, let alone approach safely without being punished? Roy's combo potential is hindered by these two points alone.

He can kill via ledge traps, Nair 1 confirms or just stray hits which will be fresh thanks to both hits going into the staleness queue. Uthrow acts as a stock cap which is very easy to hit because of the damage his most basic combo's deal which is generally over 21%.

Roy's not going to approach with Nair alone, this move conditions your opponent into shielding which gets beaten by empty hop grab or empty hop into DED to pressure shield/punish shield grab attempts.Nair is safe on block if space vs certain characters as OOS options can vary. Roy's game plan isn't to rush down and approach so Nair obviously won't fulfill that purpose. Another plus to this move(and Marcina) is that it hits behind him, this is good at punishing jump get ups --> airdodge.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Doc's N-air should be lower IMO. Not only the reverse sex kick thing makes it weak as an OoS option, but this means you'll have to hit with the late hit to deal its strongest hitbox. While useful offstage, it's outshined by Nado and onstage, it can't be abused as well as Mario's or Luigi's due to the fact Doc's mobility is often too weak, and it's just too weak to be used OoS safely for a larger range of percent.

Sure, it breaks combos... for 5.6% at frame 3, and the later hitbox is unlikely to combo into anything either.

The late hitbox on Doc's nair is useful for covering ledge get ups, burst moves and spot dodges/rolls. Actually, both the late hit and the early hit can cover ledge get up well. It is strictly worse than Mario's nair, but it's still a fast, highly active move. It's just as good as the other nairs in A Tier.

Also, why is Fox's nair in S-Tier??

 

[ARGHETH]

Also, why is Fox's nair in S-Tier??

Combo breaker + starter, I'm guessing. I think late Nair comfirms into Usmash and other stuff like that.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so Final Update on N-Air list:

Spoiler: FInal Version

TL;DR:
B -> A
B -> A
C -> D
C -> B (fire emblem one)

Also changed the U-Air list after people's feedback on certain placement:

Spoiler: FInal Up-Air

TL;DR:
A -> S
D -> A
B -> A
C -> B

Ok so now those two are updated are next round will be focusing on Forward-Airs. DIscuss inital ideas, and I will start us off with a prelimenary list tommorow.

 

[ARGHETH]

Here's a list of the top from the best moves thread (created by Jamurai)
Fair: ...
I'd personally put Marth's Fair somewhere within the top ten, but it's a start.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Here's a list of the top from the best moves thread (created by Jamurai)
Fair: ...
I'd personally put Marth's Fair somewhere within the top ten, but it's a start.

Gunner's fair is the best fair in the game. It is a transcendent priority projectile that travels more than a quarter of final destination. Since it only has 12 frames of landing lag, it is safe on perfect shielding. Gunner's fair also combos into many of Gunner's moves (these combos are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread) and it sets up for a kill with charge blast (this is a 50-50 for Gunner that is pretty hard for the opponent to avoid). It also allows Gunner to gundash for a good boost in mobility (it allows gunner to move at the speed of a falcon kick without any landing lag) that also helps Gunner land and recover. The mobility from Gundashing is also good for getting in position to juggle opponents and extending follow up strings. It is also good for edgeguarding a high recovery due to its range and ledge option coverage (It covers every ledge option when timed properly).

Corrin and Ness also have fairs that should be in the top 10. Corrin's fair is a frame 7 aerial that combos into several of Corrin's moves. Ness has a frame 8 fair that also combos into several of Ness's moves. Both of these fairs are good in the neutral since they autocancel in a shorthop, and they have good disjointed range on their hitboxes.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so here is the preliminary list:

Spoiler: Forward-Air

Let's get the discussion started!

 

[adom4]

Nominating Doc's Fair to B, it's stupidly strong and he has a confirm
with it out of D-throw against a decent amount of characters.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Okay, that list is so bad I honestly don't know how to discuss it....

 

[Routa]

I will just state that Swordspider's Fair is pretty much the same as Kirby's, but disjointed.

 

[Furret24]

I will just state that Swordspider's Fair is pretty much the same as Kirby's, but disjointed.

I think it's worth mentioning that Kirby's is faster, lingers longer, has better kill power, does more damage, and has a better autocancel window. All Swordfighter's has over it is a little more range, as both are disjointed. Outside of that, it's a straight downgrade.

I nominate that Lucario should go up. It has good frame data and combo potential, along with high damage output if Lucario is at higher percents.

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's fair has good range, deals ok damage and has decent kill power. Comes out reasonably fast at frames 8 and autocancels, and its kinda safe when spaced.
Plus zard can confirm a fair from every single one of his throws barring f-throw.

 

[Goombo]

is S-tier, incredible tool in neutral, does a lot of damage, combostarter at low percents, kills at high percents pretty fast from anywhere on the stage, really meaty hitbox, brilliant autocancel and a lot of setups into it.

doesn't belong into B-tier, neither does to A. Top tier or not, those are mediocre moves.

Seeing higher thandoesn't seem right to me, but I'm unsure how they should be changed.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Marth's Fair is probably an S-Rank Fair. A combination of insanely good range, startup, and kill power make it overall better than both Ike or corrin's fair's imo.

Roy's fair should be moved up to B or A. Low landing lag and FAF make it a very safe move to use in the neutral in addition to also making it really good at edge guarding and extending / starting combos.

Mario's Fair should be moved down to C. It has somewhat slow startup and bad range for a fair. While mario has setups into landing it, they are only truly rewarding near the ledge.

MK's Fair in B seems very out of place. It has much worse range, damage, landing lag, combo potential than several other Fair's listed in B. Is there something that makes this move really good that I'm missing here?

 

[Routa]

I think it's worth mentioning that Kirby's is faster, lingers longer, has better kill power, does more damage, and has a better autocancel window. All Swordfighter's has over it is a little more range, as both are disjointed. Outside of that, it's a straight downgrade.

I nominate that Lucario should go up. It has good frame data and combo potential, along with high damage output if Lucario is at higher percents.

This brings up the question... Do we only look at Guest size? If so then yes Kirby's is an slight upgrade, but if we also count different sizes... Well 0:0 and 0:100 Swordspider's Fair is superior due to superior frame data when it comes to lag and good damage. Ofc you could say that it is worse on bigger sizes and yes that is indeed correct, but on average I would say they are pretty equal. Also I'm still not 100% sure if we look at moves in vacuum. 'Cause if we do then yes Kirby's is indeed better, but if we also count in the mobility then I would say Swordy's is very slightly better. And I don't think that the AC window difference is major enough.

Anyways in my opinion Swordy's Fair does deserve to be in the same tier as Kirby's. The difference isn't that huge in the end.

Also I do agree that Cloud's Fair is too high for the same reasons as people have said before mii (HA PUN!). Also I'm not so sure about Robin's Fair. I mean you need the Levin Sword (or what it is called) version of it to be useful. The bronze sword one is below average. I would personally put him one tier lower.

 

[ARGHETH]

Also I'm not so sure about Robin's Fair. I mean you need the Levin Sword (or what it is called) version of it to be useful. The bronze sword one is below average. I would personally put him one tier lower.

It respawns after 6 seconds, so I personally don't think of it as much of a detriment.

 

[adom4]

This brings up the question... Do we only look at Guest size? If so then yes Kirby's is an slight upgrade, but if we also count different sizes... Well 0:0 and 0:100 Swordspider's Fair is superior due to superior frame data when it comes to lag and good damage. Ofc you could say that it is worse on bigger sizes and yes that is indeed correct, but on average I would say they are pretty equal. Also I'm still not 100% sure if we look at moves in vacuum. 'Cause if we do then yes Kirby's is indeed better, but if we also count in the mobility then I would say Swordy's is very slightly better. And I don't think that the AC window difference is major enough.

Anyways in my opinion Swordy's Fair does deserve to be in the same tier as Kirby's. The difference isn't that huge in the end.

Also I do agree that Cloud's Fair is too high for the same reasons as people have said before mii (HA PUN!). Also I'm not so sure about Robin's Fair. I mean you need the Levin Sword (or what it is called) version of it to be useful. The bronze sword one is below average. I would personally put him one tier lower.

If anything bronze sword keeps it from being S tier, Robin's Fair is bonkers.

 

[Mr. Johan]

It respawns after 8 seconds.

But I still agree it just A tier, personally. It's just slow enough to not be the ubiquitious option you'd want it to be.

Toon Link's Fair needs to go up though. Thing hits like a semi and can be easily confirmed into.

 

[Routa]

It respawns after 6 seconds, so I personally don't think of it as much of a detriment.

Oh so my memory was being an ass once again.
Yeah in that case keep it in the current place.

Edit: wait... Is it 6 or 8? Damn Robin players try to decide which it is!

 

[san.]

Guest size gunner fair is A at best (tiny is S)
Guest size gunner uair is like C (tiny is B)


Ike's fair can likely be A, but if this is ordered, I don't think it's top of A.