Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Furret24]

Should definitely be in atleast B tier (preferably A though). It has a bad hitbox, no kill potential on the late hit outside of stage spikes, and a horrible autocancel window and landing lag.

However, it has very good use for edgeguarding low recoveries due to being a stall-then-fall with low enough ending lag to where you can recover from jumping off the ledge and using it offstage and it's angle making it good for stage spikes if you get the spacing right. It can also be used semi-safe way to quickly get back down onto the stage. It also has a little disjoint (it can beat out the late hit of Cloud's up air), above average damage output (11% normally, but you can get an extra 3.5% with the landing hit at low percents onstage if you get the spike), and can even spike once in a blue moon.

has a decent down air, probably C tier. It has subpar range, but the early spike hitbox has no sourspot and is very strong (almost as strong as Ganondorf's down air spike) and the move has a long lasting hitbox, making it one of the easiest spikes to consistently land in the game. The only big issue with it is that it has pretty awful landing lag.

has an okay down air too, probably C tier. The move has a disgusting amount of landing lag and aerial cooldown, and the move is terribly weak, but it has a really good autocancel window (it can SHAC), allowing it to combo into stuff onstage. It's also fairly easy to land due to it's deceptively large hitbox, it's before-mentioned autocancel window, and having a connecting hitbox that leads into it.

 

[Lavani]

S imo should be , in no particular order.

Rosa's own dair is a large long-lasting disjoint that's great at challenging recovery moves while Luma's is a quick, high-BKB move that can set up edgeguards or get early kills edgeguarding/with rage.

Ryu's dair is fast, strong, has a great angle that lets you spike from slightly onstage, and combos off weak utilt (probably among other things). Definitely powerful and practical.

Cloud's disjoint, active frames, and autocancel speak for themselves.

Bayo dair's landing hit is hideously strong, though I don't think she can combo into it anymore which hurts it slightly. Still deserving of mention though imo, especially since it doesn't stall when used out of hitstun which lets you potentially use that early-killing landing hit as a combo breaker in some cases.

Kirby's dair is quite multipurpose. Hup canceling with the lengthy early autocancel, can be comboed out of including into kills with dsmash, lingers for years with a spike hitbox which is great for hitting 2frames among other edgeguard scenarios. Honestly an amazing move.

A tier candidates that come to mind include (safe shield pressure, combo starter), (low lag, combos/kill confirms on missed tech, good edgeguard tool), and (ridiculous active frames+disjoint, low landing lag+sh autocancel, triple turnip is death).

Lastly, dair shouldn't be higher than (but probably belongs in) B tier. While it has high potential damage and shreds shields, it has a high SDI multiplier that happens to make it punishable on hit against opponents that know about it, catching someone in shield with it usually results in the last few hits poking for "ok" damage instead of netting you a shield break, and the FAF/landing lag aren't great if you happen to whiff. That said it's another lingering spike like Kirby's dair and it's great when it works, but it has flaws that aren't present for the better dairs.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's Dair is not great. Tiny spike hitbox, only active for 2 frames but the animation is like 18. Meh damage. Okay landing lag, okay auto-cancel. Good in footstool combo situations and not much else. Can hit through the BF platform to set up stuff I guess.

Gimme the lingering frames back plz. ;_;

 

[arbustopachon]

https://gfycat.com/GleamingEcstaticHornedviper

This is zard's dair, the whole move spikes during the first 2 active frames. The rest of the move jablocks and is active for 5 frames.
Early hit deals 14% damage has 20 bkb and 100 kgb, late deals 8% and has the same kgb and bkb. Sends on an angle of 50º.

I wouldn't really say its one of the worst dairs in the game, it is quite ok imo, it does suffer from high endlag, landing lag and a bad autocancel tho.

 

[Airpoizon]

Imo, dair is better than it sounds. It does a good amount of damage, doing 15% on the sweet spot and 10% on the sour spot. (Which isn't bad at all) it has a meteor effect, which comes in handy when killing. And like all of Roys aerials, it doesn't have much landing lag. Not only that, but you can combo things after an onstage dair, as seen in this video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ax28aRHONE

So imo, this dair belongs in C. You could say low B but that's pushing it a little.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so here is my initial list on D-Air:

Spoiler: Dair

I was wondering if maybe I should create another division to split up the C-Tier (obviously I am sure there are some characters that will move up or down), but I still feel its quite too big...

Anyways leave your thoughts!

 

[zeldasmash]

Ok so here is my initial list on D-Air:

Spoiler: Dair

View attachment 110714

I was wondering if maybe I should create another division to split up the C-Tier (obviously I am sure there are some characters that will move up or down), but I still feel its quite too big...

Anyways leave your thoughts!

I think Link and Falcon should move up to B while Samus moves up to C. Falcon's dair spike is very strong and if it doesn't spike it's still a pretty strong move. Link's dair is really good due to it's lasting hitbox and combined with Link's ledgetrump game is one of the scariest meteors in the game. It's also good for that 2-frame ledge punish.

Samus's dair is rather underrated. It isn't great, but it can kill at decent percents and it's meteor is pretty strong.

 

[adom4]

Ok so here is my initial list on D-Air:

Spoiler: Dair

View attachment 110714

I was wondering if maybe I should create another division to split up the C-Tier (obviously I am sure there are some characters that will move up or down), but I still feel its quite too big...

Anyways leave your thoughts!

Swordfighter's Dair is nowhere near D-tier, it's a fantastic edgeguarding tool & one of his best moves.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sonics B imo. Kills off the top with 50/50 frame traps and a really reliable landing option if the Sonic is a smart player. guaranteed dair footstool spike off spincharge. Definitely better than Sheik/ZSS and as good as corrin/jiggs. Sonic Dair is basically G&W dair but has setups into it.
Robs dairs really good. one of the best spikes.
Also Falcon dair is super good.

Dairs are a unique scenario where their effectiveness isnt completely hindered if they have minimal use in neutral.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Bowser's Dair is actually pretty good. Being able to rise before falling down gives it a unique anti juggling niche as you whiff punish opponents ascending toward you. The priority is good enough that Bowser commonly beats and trades with sword Uairs. He can even do this, though it depends on how the opponent spaces their recovery which bowser has no control over. Otherwise you'll beat their move and SD. You could add Mario/Dr. Mario and especially Cloud to that list of opponents. 8 active meteor frames is good for any move, but the late hit has impressive vertical knockback which is important when you're supposed to use it toward people trying to juggle or followup midair. And Dair's landing hit is a combo breaker against low knockback tilts and combo throws like Mario's. The landing hit has enough base knockback to not allow the move to be punished on hit. Finally, it's a 50/50 Uthrow followup that can instantly kill at a ledge and isn't susceptible to DI until about 35%

It's got issues for sure. It can be baited by people who understand the matchup, and can't be used indiscriminately offstage, which is a crime for a move with such a great hitbox. And we don't entertain the idea of using it as a landing option if the opponent's feet are still touching the ground. But it's a core attack for making reads and getting kills during a disadvantaged state. I hate to add to C tier, but it simply isn't worse than the likes of Toon Link, Marth/Lucina, Roy, Charizard, ZSS/Sheik, DK, or Ike. And those are what I would pick to descend or make a new tier between C and D. Falco and Ganondorf Dairs are also wildly unsafe, but I would give them a pass for guaranteed frame syncs setups out of shorthops and footstools. I would also bring Villager down to C, since there's only a 1 in 3 chance you get a meteor effect. Lots of active frames, but Nair has more, and a better angle on its hitbox for edgeguarding, as well as being able to act 10 frames faster offstage afterward.

 

[Y2Kay]

Lucario's down air should be higher. If 's down air is C than Lucario's should be B because it is much more useful. Lucario's down air stalls momentum, and can combo into itself well. It can also be used OOS to catch roll ins and grab attempts. It doesn't spike though, which sucks.

 

[Lavani]

Move up
Good arc, lots of active frames, great autocancel, strong meteor. Can be comboed into with bombs (notable after shieldbreaks) and according to some Samus mains the late hit can be comboed off of. If Doc and Jiggs qualify for B I feel like this should too.
Stuff Y2Kay said, plus it's Lucario's fastest move.
Should at least be D tier, since it can be used for resets at essentially any percent. That alone makes it better than some of the other D tier dairs.

Move down
Only one active frame, horrid hitbox. One of the first dairs to come to mind when I think of "worst dairs in the game".
Is worse than Bowser's, and I don't see Bowser's as C material.
Maybe I'm just missing something about it, but nothing about this dair seems special to me. Lots of endlag, don't think it leads into anything significant, hitbox is unremarkable. Fox and Jiggs have the mobility to use theirs for kill confirms, but I'm pretty sure Doc has nothing on that. Maybe I'm wrong.
Literally just Ike dair with a lower damage sourspot and less range, and with even less application than Ike's dair due to not having the throw footstool combos and worse angles vs grounded characters.

 

[Empyrean]

I'd say Corrin's dair is exactly where it should be in B tier. Least laggy divekick, greatly disjointed, sets up Instant pin tech chases, can be used to drag the opponent down to the lower blastzone to close out the game with a stock lead and for the risk-savvy, it can be done from a fullhop near the ledge to catch the 2-frame and combos into footstool allowing you to come back (you can still come back without the footstool but it's harder).

 

[Routa]

I will comment about Mii Dair more later, but I will say this now:

Gunner has the worst Dair in game. If you get hit by it... Well you must SD rest of your stocks 'cause how bad you must be to get hit by this move.

It has horrible hitbox, is active only 1 frame, laggy, average damage, comes out on frame 20... Yeah...

 

[Mr. Johan]

I personally don't write off Robin's Dair so quickly.

It has 60 frames of lag, that much is undeniable. But, 12f startup is acceptable for a disjointed spike when fastfallen, considering the alternative is Elwind and fastfall Uair, and it has 9 active frames. While the spikebox is only active for the first two frames, the next two frames have one of the best knockbacks in the game. 20 degree angle, 55 bkb with 80 kbg, 12% with electric hitstun. This can completely devastate recoveries when the double jump's been burned. Gimping people at 30 with this hit is not unheard of. Arcthunder + Dair can secure the gimp cleanly as early as 55%.

Dair's not winning awards for landing options, but it has use as a surprise defensive and offensive option.

 

[kendikong]

I don't see a problem with having a lot of characters in c or b. That just means most characters attacks are near on par with the average. there really aren't a whole lot of d level moves as most moves have at least something useful about them.

 

[kendikong]

Is Robin's attacks based on just his Levin sword or his bronze sword as well? Or both?

Because I think the fact that his attacks have durability would knock some points off

 

[Airpoizon]

Literally just Ike dair with a lower damage sourspot and less range, and with even less application than Ike's dair due to not having the throw footstool combos and worse angles vs grounded characters.

Read my above post to see why it's so high.

 

[Lorde]

Read my above post to see why it's so high.

But you can just tech the dair and its combos disappear

You can't rank a move based on the opponent's error, or else I could say Zelda's dair is S tier because you can dair>uair for the kill

I agree with Lavani because Roy's dair is really underwhelming


I also second moving up and moving down

 

[ARGHETH]

Is Robin's attacks based on just his Levin sword or his bronze sword as well? Or both?

Because I think the fact that his attacks have durability would knock some points off

They're only gone for eight seconds, though. Brings it down a bit, but not a lot.

 

[Airpoizon]

But you can just tech the dair and its combos disappear

You can't rank a move based on the opponent's error, or else I could say Zelda's dair is S tier because you can dair>uair for the kill

I agree with Lavani because Roy's dair is really underwhelming


I also second moving up and moving down

You can't tech his dair, it doesn't have the meteor effect onstage.

 

[Lavani]

But you can just tech the dair and its combos disappear

You can't, actually. It's an 80° launch, not a spiking floorbounce.

Read my above post to see why it's so high.

If you need to be at hilt range 1~2 frames off the ground with a move that has more landing lag than an airdodge just to combo off it, it's not a good move. Between the landing lag, jumpsquat, and Roy's aerial startup, most of those can be airdodged past 40% if the circumstances aren't absolutely perfect.

If there's anything that'd convince me it still belongs in C, it'd be dair through platform>fsmash for kills around 60~70%, but dair is thin and the angle isn't a straight 90° so it turns into a guessing game which side they'll end up on against a moving opponent.

 

[Lorde]

That's kinda interesting

To be fair, onstage ≠ hitting a grounded opponent. I thought you comboing off of the meteor floorbounce

Regardless, it's not a good move

 

[Masonomace]

I'm fine with Shulk's Dair being C tier.

What can make it fall down to D tier is:

• Disgusting autocancel window
• Endlag is atrocious
• Hit 1 linking into Hit 2 sometimes isn't consistent
• Startup for both hits is slow
• Landing lag like most Down airs is moderately high lag

And what makes it stay in C tier:

• When Shulk hangs on the ledge, an impatient fish of an attempt bringing them close by the ledge puts them in a position that allows Shulk to ledge-drop > doublejump Dair to bring them towards Shulk with the 172° & can meteor smash them off-stage (This is because they'd be grounded & be hit by the ground-target-only angle of Dair Hit 1, causing them to be brought in towards Shulk to be put offstage).
• The massive range of the move can cover low recoveries from below near the ledge, or can be used to poke opponents from below on a platform
• Total damage upon succession is great
• Even if the sourspot connects, the knockback & angle are still strong enough to kill or at the very least, gimp

With arts, Monado Jump Speed & Buster can actually make Down air safe on block, or an art activation canceling Down air landing lag also alleviates that problem.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I once hit with Roy's Dair offstage but got the sourspot because I was too close. The hitbox is terrible, notably worse than the low standards of Roy's general moveset. And if we're factoring in how good a move is in Training Mode with a stationary, no DI target, than Samus has an S tier Dair. It's a bad precedent for evaluating a move. It may also be why people generally rate Cloud's Dair so highly with that full hop AC. Yes Cloud only lands with four frames of lag, but there's still frames of him falling to the ground. He can only strike a target's shield from above with the attack, and it's low shieldstun with him being uncomfortably unspaced. Every character can punish that when blocked, and it's an approach that gives you about half a second to respond with shield in the first place as he ascends toward you with the animation.

I'm also critical of the Marth/Lucina Dair. One spike frame requiring tight spacing, and with no setup into it. Getting a sourspot hit actually aids the victim's recovery. It's too slow to use safely onstage or off, and the non tipper hit can be so weak at low % that the victim can get a free attack on them after a hit.

 

[adom4]

Any reason Falcon's Dair is C tier? I think it's a pretty solid Dair personally.
EDIT: Also i nominate Ganon's Dair for B:

Pros:
* Strong as hell
* Huge hitbox that's basically Ganon's entire body and a bit below
* Sets up for combos at low-mid %
* Autocancels in a fullhop
* Untechable on the ground
* Sourspot is also strong as hell

Cons:
* Unsafe on hit at around 0-10 %
* Rather slow
* Bad landing lag if not cancelled.
* Is just barely unsafe on shield but it's hard to hard punish

 

[JosePollo]

Is Robin's attacks based on just his Levin sword or his bronze sword as well? Or both?

Because I think the fact that his attacks have durability would knock some points off

His dair only meteors with the Levin Sword, so I'd imagine that'd play into his ranking.

 

[Ninety]

I personally don't write off Robin's Dair so quickly.

It has 60 frames of lag, that much is undeniable. But, 12f startup is acceptable for a disjointed spike when fastfallen, considering the alternative is Elwind and fastfall Uair, and it has 9 active frames. While the spikebox is only active for the first two frames, the next two frames have one of the best knockbacks in the game. 20 degree angle, 55 bkb with 80 kbg, 12% with electric hitstun. This can completely devastate recoveries when the double jump's been burned. Gimping people at 30 with this hit is not unheard of. Arcthunder + Dair can secure the gimp cleanly as early as 55%.

Dair's not winning awards for landing options, but it has use as a surprise defensive and offensive option.

What is up with Arcthunder + dair, anyway? Do the launch angles cancel each other out or something?

 

[JosePollo]

Simply due to aplicability I think Mewtwo and Fox should switch places. Fox's dair is a quick (frame 5) constant hitbox that acts as a decent approach option due to being able to auto-cancel from a full hop and Fox's own air-to-ground mobility. You can full hop dair someone's shield and if they drop shield during the multi-hits you get a follow-up afterwards. The landing hitbox can combo into a grab or dash attack at low-to-mid percents and is a set-up to up smash at kill percent.

Meanwhile, Mewtwo's dair is not really great for much outside of air dodge reads for the kill due to it's slow start-up, which makes it rather unsafe to use in almost any other situation since the opponent can just shield the hit and punish, or interrupt it before it even happens. It's strong, yeah, and can kill sweet or sourspotted, but a competitive opponent is rarely going to get hit by this attack, and it doesn't really provide any set-ups they way Fox's down air does.

 

[Lorde]

Least laggy divekick

Just wanted to say that Corrin's dair has 23 frames of endlag while Bayonetta's only has 12. Before her dair got nerfed in 1.1.5, it only had 7 frames of endlag lol

 

[Mr. Johan]

What is up with Arcthunder + dair, anyway? Do the launch angles cancel each other out or something?

There are cases in this game where if two hitboxes overlap on the same frame, the knockback of both hits are combined (but not added), and the angle of both hits are calculated and averaged out, I believe. It's why if people DI Arcthunder straight up and Robin Jabs, they fly straight up at wtf km/h, lol

Every character can feasibly do this simultaneous knockback in doubles, but Robin is the only one who can do it consistently because of Arcthunder's lock and ongoing hitboxes.

His dair only meteors with the Levin Sword, so I'd imagine that'd play into his ranking.

No Robin is ever going to be using Bronze Dair. Ever.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Swap Samus and Roy around for sure. Samus' actually has utility that gets seen in matches every now and then. Roy not so much. Its pretty garbo and is just... bad Ike Dair and Ike's Dair is already not good.

Move up Lucario's, it has some general utility use to it and good start up.

Drop Marth and Lucina's down. Wide range yes but no real utility to them or set ups.

Swap Mewtwo and Fox as somebody else explained.

Even if Robin would never use his Bronze Dair, its a part of the move and has to be calculated into it. It means for X% of the match he would never ever use Dair even though he might wish he could during those windows.

Ganondorf I would probably move up a tier, though the very bottom of it.

 

[Empyrean]

Just wanted to say that Corrin's dair has 23 frames of endlag while Bayonetta's only has 12. Before her dair got nerfed in 1.1.5, it only had 7 frames of endlag lol

I should have specified landing lag in my post: 26 frames, with Bayo/G&W coming in 2nd with 28 frames.

 

[JosePollo]

I'd bump Bowser's dair from D- to C-tier. It's predictable when used as a landing option, but the momentum properties can allow it to work as an anti-chase when used out of hitstun since Bowser will hover mid-air (a la ZSS, but with a bit of falling momentum) instead of plummeting down immediately. Jumping into the hitbox late (after the meteor hitbox, though that hitbox is strong enough to KO off of the floor) can cause you to lose a stock due to the power and angle of the attack. This same property can also be used to counter some weak knockback attacks since Bowser will almost immediately go into his landing state, essentially giving him access to a frame 1 hitbox to use as a combo breaker. Buffering dair from jumpsquat (c-stick set to tilts) at the ledge also works to catch non-disjointed rising ledge drop attacks, and can cover quite a few other ledge options thanks to the size of the hitbox and the landing hitbox, which has good reach on both sides.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Move down to A or B. It has utility and it is strong, but it's not really fast or safe. You can also stuff it with certain Smash Attacks.
Move down to B. It doesn't do a good job covering the area below him and as a follow up tool, it's wonky. You can escape the last and penultimate hits of the move with a 3 frame move or faster. It's also not safe out of a short hop.
Move down to B. It seems to trump well (hitting the opponent as they grab the ledge a second time) and it is strong, but it's not useful in neutral. Too slow for that.
Move up to B, for the reasons listed above. Same with .
Move up to B. It's fast, has low lag and can stall his recovery without rendering him very vulnerable.
Is there a reason that dairs like those of and are in B? Greninja's dair isn't safe on whiff and you can spotdodge this move, even when directly below him. Corrin's isn't safe.


Keep in B. It can stuff moves, cover roll options, and edgeguard because:
A. It will either stuff out moves (e.g. / Up-Bs).
B. It will trade with moves and this will cause semi spike effects (e.g. Up-B).

 

[Routa]

Anyways like Adom (NOTICE MII SENPAI!) said Swordspider's Dair is one of the better Dairs in game (it is his best Aerial). It is pretty much like Kirby's, but it trades ability to combo from to Disjoint and killpower. Fun fact: his landing hitbox comes out on frame 2 and thanks to it he/she/it is able to escape grounded combos at low %. Amazing move nevertheless. Anyways you should not try to challenge Swordspider that is landing with Dair. Wait till his/her/its landing hitbox comes out and after that try to punish the lag. I would place him in the same tier as Kirby's Dair.

Overall Swordspider has one of the better aerial kits in game. It is his mobility and grounded moves that keep him from not being better.

 

[L9999]

Ok so here is my initial list on D-Air:

Spoiler: Dair

View attachment 110714

I was wondering if maybe I should create another division to split up the C-Tier (obviously I am sure there are some characters that will move up or down), but I still feel its quite too big...

Anyways leave your thoughts!

I would believe Dair is S tier if it was the one before it got nerfed. It should drop.
Dair is a billion times better than anyone in D tier.
Dair is trash. Same with .
Dair is only useful for disrespect. Shouldn't be with the likes of .

 

[Furret24]

has more utility than the other down airs in B tier. I think it should move up to A tier.
should definety move down to atleast D tier. Insane startup and cooldown, weak knockback and damage output, and a crazy strict spike hitbox (it's a small hitbox on the late hit of the move, meaning you have to get both the spacing and timing just right with a small hitbox midair that's also messed up by the awkward momentum the move has).

 

[Lavani]

I don't see what G&W's dair has over any of the others in its tier aside from disjoint. I'd say it should move down to C if anything, but I didn't say anything previously because its disjoint is good at least.

Is there a reason that dairs like those of and are in B? Greninja's dair isn't safe on whiff and you can spotdodge this move, even when directly below him. Corrin's isn't safe.

Greninja's might not be safe on spotdodge but it is on shield, can be combo'd off of (including at kill percent, iirc), and is integral to the high damage footstool combos. If your solution is to just spotdodge whenever Greninja's above you you're making a punishable commitment against any frog that isn't just spamming dairs mindlessly.

Corrin's has massive disjoint (I think the most disjointed dair? It's enough to beat antiairs like Rosa/Mario usmash) and she can recover after using it offstage for spikes. I think it probably fits better in C than B, but if G&W's is B then Corrin's is definitely B.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

I don't see what G&W's dair has over any of the others in its tier aside from disjoint. I'd say it should move down to C if anything, but I didn't say anything previously because its disjoint is good at least.

Greninja's might not be safe on spotdodge but it is on shield, can be combo'd off of (including at kill percent, iirc), and is integral to the high damage footstool combos. If your solution is to just spotdodge whenever Greninja's above you you're making a punishable commitment against any frog that isn't just spamming dairs mindlessly.

Corrin's has massive disjoint (I think the most disjointed dair? It's enough to beat antiairs like Rosa/Mario usmash) and she can recover after using it offstage for spikes. I think it probably fits better in C than B, but if G&W's is B then Corrin's is definitely B.

Well, you can spotdodge just before it hits you and punish him. And I didn't say "always spot dodge preemptively if you are below Greninja."
I guess the fact that combos into stuff makes it better than any of the dairs in C Tier. It can stay in B.

Ok, fair enough. Guess both 's dair and 's dair are good enough to stay in B.