Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Zapp Branniglenn]

has a good Utilt. It true combos into rest exclusively at low (0-20) percents. Later percents may be theoretically possible if you hit in front of her which mostly requires the opponent to be moving into her or be directly above her on frames 11-13, which isn't likely. The combo also is questionable to perform, since rest deals 20 % plus at least 10% added flower damage on a human opponent, and utilt is another 9, but Jigglypuff is the character who most hates trading for damage. Dealing 40% to a Ganondorf is great, until he comes down and reverses warlock punch for 37% damage and killing her at any percent later than 10. There are still some MUs where the trade is a definite yes, like Sheik who can't deal very much damage on a guaranteed punish, especially since Jiggs can avoid the brunt of her combo extensions. If the rest is too costly, just Utilt again instead for a 18% combo. Jiggs ascends too slowly for aerial followups, unlike better Utilts. It will start killing at around 130%. One of her better moves on the ground for sure and probably an average tiered Utilt. The only move of hers we'll probably rate as S tier is Down B, and debatably Dash Attack, since that will be a graveyard of bad moves, and hers is pretty good.

The same looking move with key functional differences. Both attacks have enough startup to qualify as a smash attack, but very little endlag making them "safe on shield". I use quotes since -14 and -15 OoS aren't so much safe as they are "difficult to punish" when spaced. Falcon's move can combo into Ftilt, dash attack, and Uair at extremely tight percentages against fast fallers only, and it won't kill at reasonable percentages. If you catch somebody from the air, the meteor angle can lead to some nasty stuff on a ground rebound, or just mash jab if you expect them to tech. You can also fish for a kill on somebody about to run out of I-frames at the ledge (hanging on a ledge is technically "airborne"), but most players don't wait that long. Samus has the same meteor angle, but for grounded targets only. On a grounded rebound, she also has some high damage combos and a footstool kill setup if very close to a ledge. When teched, I think her jab 1 is all that's guaranteed, and it doesn't lead to much. On an air target, it can kill at reasonable percents, but not as nearly as well as a charge shot, spaced Bair, or spaced Fsmash can. Her is also a notably larger hitbox, reaching higher and further than Falcon's. I personally believe Falcon's is definitely below average and Samus should be just one tier higher, not any more.

's is good but not great. It does have the largest hitbox for an Utilt (rivaled only by shulk with more height, but shulk fails to hit grounded targets behind him while being well disjointed so take your pick which is the better hitbox). It effortlessly covers a full battlefield platform. Limb intangibility is a key aspect for an anti-air attack (similar to swords, it's really only a desirable quality for challenging aerials or any move that cannot clank). It'll work for 90-95% of aerials, but it trades with equally disjointed attacks like Link or Cloud's Dair. The big issue is Bowser's hurtbox. He stands tall and erect for the whole move which causes the trades, especially when the move is timed poorly. Ftilt and Usmash don't have this problem - Ftilt keeps Bowser's body behind the hitbox, while Usmash puts Bowser into a crouch until the shell invincibility kicks in. And at just 9% damage, it's Bowser's weakest attack to land and has no guaranteed followups of its own besides another Utilt at tight %s against fast fallers for the back hit only. Plus it doesn't kill until 150% without rage, which is much later than most of his attacks. It's most prominent use is guaranteed from Uthrow at 0% percent where Nair isn't guaranteed. I think Bowser's is good, but it matches up poorly to his Usmash which can't be challenged at all while having twice as much reward in damage. And the lack of combo or kill potential is a punishing weakness when compared with other Utilts.

Very similar to Bowser's but comes out faster and has slightly better upward disjoint, allowing him to beat Cloud and Link Dairs if positioned precisely right. The move does fail to hit where the visuals imply, however. Most notable if you plant a target above and behind or in front of him on a platform. His move will kill even later than Bowser's, but there's a sweetspot close to his body that let's him kill as early as 120%. You may have even seen its setup - tipper jab to turnaround Utilt. I think this move is better than to it's character, which gives a slight edge over Bowser, but not enough to constitute a whole tier when it's slightly more punishable on whiff/block and doesn't cover as wide of an area.

More startup but less endlag than Mario and with disjoint. Has a true combo range into Usmash, as well as Uair and Up B at mid to high%. Can kill combo, but don't know how guaranteed that is against airdodges out of hitstun. Very likely a top tier Utilt, but hindered by Tink's unwillingness to get close to somebody without a bomb or boomerang in his hand

multihit utilts that don't kill, have large,vulnerable windows between hitboxes which make them bad for anti-air, and don't reach far forward or at all backward. Sonic's can lead into a Spring jumped Fair at high percent range, but it's not noteworthy.

Great for reasons others have mentioned, suffers from having no air game to followup with besides Up B, which he might not want to stale. Would be better if it eventually killed or had a Utilt into Up B kill confirm.

More damage than Mario, but I wouldn't rank them on the same tier. Doc's Dthrow sparsely connects into Utilt, and when it does, it's just one. And worse speed stats make getting that close a tougher task. Mario could landing Nair or Bair into Utilt for much of the match for instance using his momentum, Doc can't.

Noteworthy for being one of his faster attacks, and starts behind him unlike Dtilt. Doesn't reach far horizontally in that direction though. Limb intangibility makes for good anti-air. Definitely not under average.

Among pikmin-less moves, this is likely the worst. It is basically his Nair is you exclusively used that when rising but not moving into people. Nair is not good, but at least it has low landing lag. Would be passable if it worked as a followup from Dthrow or Dtilt, but it doesn't.

worst hitbox I can think of in the game. Doesn't combo into anything. Low tier. Kind of functions as alternative jab with the move reaching farther forward than up, but leaves her vulnerable on hit at low and mid %

Mii Gunner's up tilt is also probably S or A tier. It is a frame 5 move with great range. It also juggles at low percents, follows up into up air or nair at mid percents, and it kills around 135 depending on the character's weight.

It definitely doesn't juggle into itself or combo into aerials. But frame 5 kill options are always good, though. Would be better if it were as strong as Mega Man or had direct setups into like Metal Blade can.

Utilts that strike me as top tier

Runner ups /

 

[TCT~Phantom]

U Tilt for S
It's very quick, and it sets up for True Shoryuken and Dair spikes. An awesome tool for Ryu's kit.

 

[Djmarcus44]

has a good Utilt. It true combos into rest exclusively at low (0-20) percents. Later percents may be theoretically possible if you hit in front of her which mostly requires the opponent to be moving into her or be directly above her on frames 11-13, which isn't likely. The combo also is questionable to perform, since rest deals 20 % plus at least 10% added flower damage on a human opponent, and utilt is another 9, but Jigglypuff is the character who most hates trading for damage. Dealing 40% to a Ganondorf is great, until he comes down and reverses warlock punch for 37% damage and killing her at any percent later than 10. There are still some MUs where the trade is a definite yes, like Sheik who can't deal very much damage on a guaranteed punish, especially since Jiggs can avoid the brunt of her combo extensions. If the rest is too costly, just Utilt again instead for a 18% combo. Jiggs ascends too slowly for aerial followups, unlike better Utilts. It will start killing at around 130%. One of her better moves on the ground for sure and probably an average tiered Utilt. The only move of hers we'll probably rate as S tier is Down B, and debatably Dash Attack, since that will be a graveyard of bad moves, and hers is pretty good.

The same looking move with key functional differences. Both attacks have enough startup to qualify as a smash attack, but very little endlag making them "safe on shield". I use quotes since -14 and -15 OoS aren't so much safe as they are "difficult to punish" when spaced. Falcon's move can combo into Ftilt, dash attack, and Uair at extremely tight percentages against fast fallers only, and it won't kill at reasonable percentages. If you catch somebody from the air, the meteor angle can lead to some nasty stuff on a ground rebound, or just mash jab if you expect them to tech. You can also fish for a kill on somebody about to run out of I-frames at the ledge (hanging on a ledge is technically "airborne"), but most players don't wait that long. Samus has the same meteor angle, but for grounded targets only. On a grounded rebound, she also has some high damage combos and a footstool kill setup if very close to a ledge. When teched, I think her jab 1 is all that's guaranteed, and it doesn't lead to much. On an air target, it can kill at reasonable percents, but not as nearly as well as a charge shot, spaced Bair, or spaced Fsmash can. Her is also a notably larger hitbox, reaching higher and further than Falcon's. I personally believe Falcon's is definitely below average and Samus should be just one tier higher, not any more.

's is good but not great. It does have the largest hitbox for an Utilt (rivaled only by shulk with more height, but shulk fails to hit grounded targets behind him while being well disjointed so take your pick which is the better hitbox). It effortlessly covers a full battlefield platform. Limb intangibility is a key aspect for an anti-air attack (similar to swords, it's really only a desirable quality for challenging aerials or any move that cannot clank). It'll work for 90-95% of aerials, but it trades with equally disjointed attacks like Link or Cloud's Dair. The big issue is Bowser's hurtbox. He stands tall and erect for the whole move which causes the trades, especially when the move is timed poorly. Ftilt and Usmash don't have this problem - Ftilt keeps Bowser's body behind the hitbox, while Usmash puts Bowser into a crouch until the shell invincibility kicks in. And at just 9% damage, it's Bowser's weakest attack to land and has no guaranteed followups of its own besides another Utilt at tight %s against fast fallers for the back hit only. Plus it doesn't kill until 150% without rage, which is much later than most of his attacks. It's most prominent use is guaranteed from Uthrow at 0% percent where Nair isn't guaranteed. I think Bowser's is good, but it matches up poorly to his Usmash which can't be challenged at all while having twice as much reward in damage. And the lack of combo or kill potential is a punishing weakness when compared with other Utilts.

Very similar to Bowser's but comes out faster and has slightly better upward disjoint, allowing him to beat Cloud and Link Dairs if positioned precisely right. The move does fail to hit where the visuals imply, however. Most notable if you plant a target above and behind or in front of him on a platform. His move will kill even later than Bowser's, but there's a sweetspot close to his body that let's him kill as early as 120%. You may have even seen its setup - tipper jab to turnaround Utilt. I think this move is better than to it's character, which gives a slight edge over Bowser, but not enough to constitute a whole tier when it's slightly more punishable on whiff/block and doesn't cover as wide of an area.

More startup but less endlag than Mario and with disjoint. Has a true combo range into Usmash, as well as Uair and Up B at mid to high%. Can kill combo, but don't know how guaranteed that is against airdodges out of hitstun. Very likely a top tier Utilt, but hindered by Tink's unwillingness to get close to somebody without a bomb or boomerang in his hand

multihit utilts that don't kill, have large,vulnerable windows between hitboxes which make them bad for anti-air, and don't reach far forward or at all backward. Sonic's can lead into a Spring jumped Fair at high percent range, but it's not noteworthy.

Great for reasons others have mentioned, suffers from having no air game to followup with besides Up B, which he might not want to stale. Would be better if it eventually killed or had a Utilt into Up B kill confirm.

More damage than Mario, but I wouldn't rank them on the same tier. Doc's Dthrow sparsely connects into Utilt, and when it does, it's just one. And worse speed stats make getting that close a tougher task. Mario could landing Nair or Bair into Utilt for much of the match for instance using his momentum, Doc can't.

Noteworthy for being one of his faster attacks, and starts behind him unlike Dtilt. Doesn't reach far horizontally in that direction though. Limb intangibility makes for good anti-air. Definitely not under average.

Among pikmin-less moves, this is likely the worst. It is basically his Nair is you exclusively used that when rising but not moving into people. Nair is not good, but at least it has low landing lag. Would be passable if it worked as a followup from Dthrow or Dtilt, but it doesn't.

worst hitbox I can think of in the game. Doesn't combo into anything. Low tier. Kind of functions as alternative jab with the move reaching farther forward than up, but leaves her vulnerable on hit at low and mid %



It definitely doesn't juggle into itself or combo into aerials. But frame 5 kill options are always good, though. Would be better if it were as strong as Mega Man or had direct setups into like Metal Blade can.

Utilts that strike me as top tier

Runner ups /

The strong hit of up tilt true combos into weak hit of up tilt for Mii Gunner at low percents. The weak hit of up tilt juggles opponents. While it doesn't true combo into up air, it is a good follow up because up air has long lasting hitboxes that can hit an opponent out of an airdodge if their dodge isn't frame perfect. Gunner can also combo into up tilt from an up throw at low percents on fastfallers.

 

[Ffamran]

I know some of DK's tilts have partial intangibility. Does that include Utilt? If so ya I'd say its S tier.

Also Ganondorf for F tier.

Only DK's jab 1, jab 2, dash attack, late hit of Down Smash, grabs -- gee, I wonder why? --, Nair, Fair, Bair, Dair, aerial Giant Punch charged or uncharged, Headbutt ground or aerial, loop hits of Spinning Kong ground or aerial, and Hand Slap don't have invincibility. Short answer: yes, DK's Utilt has invincibility on his arm from frames 5 to 25, so 21 I-frames. I guess rule of thumb, a big thumb that is, is all of DK's tilts have invincibility and all of them for some inexplicable reason, have more I-frames than Bowser's. Fur beats scales apparently in Smash...

Falco's Utilt is basically a poor man's ZSS's Utilt. ZSS's is faster on startup at frame 3 to Falco's 5, has much more horizontal reach, does more 3% or 4% total damage as hers does 5% + 7% to Falco's 4% or 3% + 5%, has invincibility throughout the move from frames 3-10, 7 I-frames, and is recoilless like Ike's dash attack and Little Mac's jab, Utilt, Ftilt, and Dtilt. The only downsides to ZSS's is hers has higher recovery at 36 frames to Falco's 21, hers has slightly less vertical reach since Falco tiptoes / floats above ground and his arms stretch during the move, however the cost of that is Falco starts at a higher profile while ZSS's starts at a much lower profile which could be safer for anti-airing despite having less vertical reach than Falco's, and hers has lower active frames and slightly higher, but still insignificant frame gap; ZSS's Utilt hits 2(4)2 while Falco's hits 5(2)5. For those of you who don't understand the notation, parentheses means frame gaps, the frames when a move doesn't have an active hitbox and is generally only going to happen with multi-hits. They also have roughly the same power. I guess another downside to ZSS's which I'm hesitant to talk about is that hers might not be able to really chain into itself at low percents since the second hit has much higher base knockback, but since the opponent's going to be in the air, she might be able to followup for something more than chaining Utilts which Falco sort of can do, but not really.

Hitboxes for anyone curious

Spoiler

Spoiler: Falco's Utilt

Spoiler: ZSS's Utilt

On Falco's specifically, there's a situation where it can drop people. This is because the first hit ends slightly further out than the last hit does, so if Falco hits someone around frame 9 with his Utilt, the second hit might not connect because the opponent is in a hit stun animation which usually involves them reeling back in pain. Yes, the first hit has set knockback, so the opponent isn't going to fly out, but that might have been better since when the first hit connects and the second hit whiffs, the opponent is likely to be able to freely act as Falco is dealing with Utilt's recovery. It's not a common issue as hitting with the back of Utilt is more of Fox's shtick along with hitting above while Falco's is more of hitting in front and above, but when it happens, it, pretty much all parts of his jab, Ftilt at low percents, when landing with Nair's loop hits, Uair at low percents against average to heavy characters, and clean Bair at low percents against average to heavy characters become hit confirms for other characters. Against some characters like Jigglypuff, Luigi, and Ryu, this is fatal for Falco.

The move itself isn't bad, but there's kind of a better version that exists. If Falco's is placed in C, then ZSS's should be in B or even A. As an anti-air, it's good, but also "different" since Falco needs to meet under rather than away. A comparison would be like Ike's Utilt to Marth's where Ike doesn't have Marth's horizontal range, but has as much if not more vertical range. Ike would anti-air by using Utilt under an opponent trapping them with his Utilt's vertical reach and high active frames while Marth would anti-air by using Utilt against an opponent making a poor aerial approach. Ike's would be more vertical where he places a hitbox under you while you're in the air while Marth's is more horizontal where he places a hitbox next you. I hope that made sense...

Because of its high active frames, Falco's Utilt is a meaty hit; he can use it to catch landings, dodges, and cover ledge getup options. It doesn't have Up Smash's higher active frames, invincibility, and lower initial hitbox, but it is slightly faster and has lower recovery. The only issue is its horizontal range which Up Smash also shares as a problem for ledge coverage. That's pretty much its only edge against ZSS's; its active frames making it a meatier hit, but that gets rivaled by Corrin and Ike's also vertically-inclined Utilts, so... Another edge it could have held had Nair's landing lag not been significantly increased, 7 frames up from 9 to 15, from Brawl to Smash 4 was the ability to be set up. It's not a strong KO tool, but had it still been able to be set up from falling Nair, it would still have been something like at least a stock cap since Utilt KOs around 170%.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I actually find Lucina's Up Tilt to be pretty good. Both her Up Tilt and Marth's Tippered Up Tilt actually kill at somewhat realistic percents, and both have combo and followup potential. It's not "easily the worst of the bunch". Marth's is probably better because of the Tipper, I'd say, but both should probably be on B.

Now, Mario's Up Tilt. It is very good at early percents, but after that, its usage gets limited to being kind of an anti-air, punshing vulnerable people on ledges and punishing rolls. At early percents, it stops true combo-ing into itself earlier than you might expect, but it's still very good to rack up early damage and starting setups if the Mario is smart. So yeah, it probably is one of the best.

 

[Y2Kay]

's up tilt is great. disjointed, good hit stun, is a good anti air, combos, can lead into foot stools, etc. I could definitely see it in A, B at worst.

's up tilt is also pretty good. It has a nice sweeping hitbox, hitting both above and behind him, combos into itself. maaaybe A most likely B.

's up tilt combos into up smash, and that's pretty much it's main use. Hitbox is not good enough to be a real anti air. Probably B.

 

[Esquire]

: Brawler's UTilt is almost identical to Mario's, but it is active/ends one frame later than Mario's, meaning that it can't combo quite as effectively. It is virtually the same otherwise, and even that difference is minute (although at least noticeable). I'd place Brawler's UTilt right around where Mario's is, but behind Mario in some capacity (probably right behind). That would probably be in the middle of A.

: Fantastic. Can link into itself at low percentages, can link into UpB until later percentages. Biggest benefit is it used as an anti-air, trades with a ton of aerials at worst.Trades with ground normals and puts Mac in an advantage state. Excellent angle and speed that can constantly cover his immediate area. Best option for being defensive on stages with platforms (BF, DL). High A material, possibly top.

 

[Masonomace]

Utilts eh, I can dig it.

's Utilt in a vacuum perspective is pretty neat but not amazingly high-class as I used to think around the beginning of Smash 4. If we're talking about the move's merit to Shulk himself, it can combo into Air Slash if you can hit with the Blade startup in front of Shulk from low to low-mid percents (Although, Jump art extends this from low to mid percents). The move also has a different knockback angle which is the Beam hitbox that sends opponents away & facing away from Shulk, favoring a frame trap setup into \. Additionally, Utilt hits can lead into 50/50s with either using Uair, Back Slash, or whatever desired like another aerial. Aside from that, here's the reasons I rate Shulk's Utilt a genuine high B tier, if not low A tier.

• Frame 11-12 is the Blade startup that can catch the ledge getup & continue to string into more attacks.
• The hitbox activity being frame 11-22 means that it lasts 12 frames. This move destroys airdodges in that you either airdodge & the hitbox outlasts the intangibility, or that you will force users to airdodge to the ground to likely take a hard punish.
• The Utilt range that covers Shulk's space is enormous, but the range isn't that great in front of him & lacks any presence directly behind him unless you're close up. Unlike most Utilts, Shulk's will cover an entire platform above him, so there's usually no use in challenging it with a drop-through platform strategy despite of the endlag. And with Monado Buster. . .it's nearly impossible to challenge the endlag or try to escape quickly from the other Utilts to come when holding shield on a platform above Shulk.
• It's an average kill move, but with Monado Smash active, it's kill power becomes the reincarnation of Utilt and it's imo more dangerous to get hit by the sweetspot.
• Perfect Pivoting Utilt is a strong landing trap to set, especially in Monado Speed. .
• Endlag on its own being a FAF of 40 as well as the startup being frame 11 hinders my rating on it being A-material, but the strong traits it has to my knowledge has me convinced that it's B-tier material.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Late but Doc's B-air should be above Mario's.

The rising SHFFAC version of Doc's fresh B-air is at worst -13 on block. If you delay startup by a few frames to get a more optimal autocancel, it's as good as -10 on block.

Not only does Doc's B-air do significantly more damage (and shieldstun) than Mario's, it has the same autocancel frames and benefits from a super low short hop letting it hit the entire standing cast while rising. Objectively, there's not many moves that are this braindead in neutral in Smash 4. As for what I mean by braindead, put this in perspective. It's a rising autocancel aerial that is safe on block even without explicitly retreating.

As for U-tilts my personal top U-tilt list comes down to characters like Fox, Link, TL, Mac, DK, Ryu, Kirby, and Bayonetta. Excluding Ganon's obviously, as Ganon's U-tilt clearly is the best by being a 1HKO.

 

[L9999]

Mediocre and situational. The range is pathetic but it can be used to extend some combos near the ground, a mixup to catch a landing, and a clutch killer with rage/high %. Overshadowed by everything that is good about Ness. D tier IMO. Ness' ground moves bar jabs, dash attack and Down Smash are all mediocre and situational at best.

It is good. Combos good at low % and getting people up in the air is always a good thing for Lucina. Having it kill is complicated though (like every aerial/tilt Lucina has). Not be stale, Lucina having rage, and opponent at high %. Might be wrong because I don't play Wii U's tiny ceilings often (Smash 3DS player).

garbage, nothing else to say.

S tier without a doubt. Fast, links into itself, sets up for juggles, and 2 frames extremely cheap.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok here is the list for Up-Tilt:

Spoiler: Up-Tilt

Discuss!

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Seeing The King of Evil's Up Tilt at F-tier makes me laugh. Its Raw strength, amplified by the Triforce of Power, is what caused the destruction in the marketplace of Hyrule castle and turned those who saw its magnificent might into the redeads we see today. The mere sound of Ganondorf's foot rising invokes unparalleled fear against the unfortunate souls that dare invoke the wrath of our King. No sword can match our King's range and any shield that attempts to withstand his power will quickly be shattered. For these reasons, I believe that SS is the only rank that can do our King's Up Tilt justice.

 

[adom4]

Seeing The King of Evil's Up Tilt at F-tier makes me laugh. Its Raw strength, amplified by the Triforce of Power, is what caused the destruction in the marketplace of Hyrule castle and turned those who saw its magnificent might into the redeads we see today. The mere sound of Ganondorf's foot rising invokes unparalleled fear against the unfortunate souls that dare invoke the wrath of our King. No sword can match our King's range and any shield that attempts to withstand his power will quickly be shattered. For these reasons, I believe that SS is the only rank that can do our King's Up Tilt justice.

In the 3DS days it was SSS tier when everyone still tried to Shield it.

 

[Kofu]

Ok here is the list for Up-Tilt:

Spoiler: Up-Tilt

Discuss!

Jr.'s should go up a tier. Pac-Man's, Wario's, and Palutena's could also rise IMO.

Lucina probably belongs in the same tier as Marth.

ZSS's could probably go up by virtue of its startup, range, and intangibility alone.

Not sure why Samus's is higher than Falcon's. They probably belong in the same tier; Falcon's seems better to me.

Luigi's feels better than where it is. So does Link's.

Doc's should be A or S.

 

[LRodC]

I also agree with a Link rise. It's a very good move with great range and kill power, as well as decent cooldown.

I think Charizard's should go up a tier as well. It's a great anti air and platform shark move with minimal risk. The wings are also intangible.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Game and Watch's should move up at least a tier. It's pretty fast and is an amazing combo tool.

 

[arbustopachon]

Yeah after seeing the rest of the C tier i think zard would fit better on B. The move just stuffs so many aerials it kinda makes up for its inflexibility.

 

[Bigbomb2]

I agree on Link moving up and I feel Falco's should go up as well. Pretty good juggle up-tilt

 

[Anomilus]

No way on Earth should Bowser Jr.'s Up-Tilt be ranked below Wii Fit Trainer. The latter has a terribly small hitbox, the former doesn't and even covers a bit of Jr.'s front. The latter barely holds the target in a juggle, the former juggles effectively and leads into his fast-starting UAir or NAir.

EDIT - Okay, further back in the topic says individual tiers are not ordered. In that case they should be organized alphabetically to make it more apparent.
I'd also suggest Bowser Jr.'s Up-Tilt for C Tier in this case.

Late but Doc's B-air should be above Mario's.

Absolutely. There really needs to be a way to dispute a "Final List" if multiple people can agree on something being amiss. This is another case of something Mario does being lauded over Doc simply because it's Mario and Doc.

 

[Crystanium]

Pros

• Useful at hitting opponents hanging on the edge or even kicking them away if they try to return.
• Strong knock-back.
• Capable of hitting opponents through platforms.
• Kill move.
• Frontal hit box arc.

Cons

• Samus' second slowest attack, u-smash being the first.
• Opponents can tech this attack, even unintentionally.

The pros outweigh the cons, clearly.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Palutena's should absolutely not be going up. The only reason I'm not saying it should go down to F-Tier is because Ganondorf's is just so hilariously bad.

 

[Kofu]

Game and Watch's should move up at least a tier. It's pretty fast and is an amazing combo tool.

Dude, I main Game & Watch and think it belongs in D. Frame 10 is not "pretty fast" for a combo UTilt, it has a garbage hitbox, connects unreliably, and typically doesn't even true combo into his aerials. Its only use is as a lowish percent DThrow followup and even then there's usually a better option. I guess I could see it being in C just for damage/disjoint (14% for both hits) but I almost never use the move.

Palutena's should absolutely not be going up. The only reason I'm not saying it should go down to F-Tier is because Ganondorf's is just so hilariously bad.

Jab to UTilt is a kill combo at higher percents. It also shrinks her hurtbox and protects her from above with a hitbox. It's not great but it has a handful of legitimate uses.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's still less use than the ones in the tier above. In the handful of top level Palutena games I've watched I've seen Utilt used... once. And it might have been a missed input. Just too slow of a move, with too long of an animation and not doing enough to be worth much of anything. "At least its not Ganondorf's" tier is pretty spot on. The other moves within that tier might have marginally less use, but they don't get you pushed as hard for accidentally using them. Pretty even trade off within that tier.

 

[kendikong]

Should jiggs really be in B? I mean it's so short range, and it's really hard for anybody to even get hit by it in the first place.

 

[Ffamran]

Shouldn't Bowser's Utilt be slightly higher? Like B-tier to DK's A-tier? Like what Zapp said?

's is good but not great. It does have the largest hitbox for an Utilt (rivaled only by shulk with more height, but shulk fails to hit grounded targets behind him while being well disjointed so take your pick which is the better hitbox). It effortlessly covers a full battlefield platform. Limb intangibility is a key aspect for an anti-air attack (similar to swords, it's really only a desirable quality for challenging aerials or any move that cannot clank). It'll work for 90-95% of aerials, but it trades with equally disjointed attacks like Link or Cloud's Dair. The big issue is Bowser's hurtbox. He stands tall and erect for the whole move which causes the trades, especially when the move is timed poorly. Ftilt and Usmash don't have this problem - Ftilt keeps Bowser's body behind the hitbox, while Usmash puts Bowser into a crouch until the shell invincibility kicks in. And at just 9% damage, it's Bowser's weakest attack to land and has no guaranteed followups of its own besides another Utilt at tight %s against fast fallers for the back hit only. Plus it doesn't kill until 150% without rage, which is much later than most of his attacks. It's most prominent use is guaranteed from Uthrow at 0% percent where Nair isn't guaranteed. I think Bowser's is good, but it matches up poorly to his Usmash which can't be challenged at all while having twice as much reward in damage. And the lack of combo or kill potential is a punishing weakness when compared with other Utilts.

Also, Meta Knight and Rosalina & Luma's could be higher. Meta Knight's is a confirm from what I remember reading from Meta Knight players and Rosalina's is disjointed and head invincible and if you manage to get the ground only hitbox of Luma's, it'll kill easily with rage. Also, pretty sure you can confirm or at least set up Luma's Utilt from her jab.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Shouldn't Bowser's Utilt be slightly higher? Like B-tier to DK's A-tier? Like what Zapp said?

Hrrm, reading what I wrote, it was definitely the bowser main in me that focused on the negatives over the positives. I just wanted to bring down Bowser's in the likelihood is would be ranked too high while signal boosting DK's. Bowser's Utilt is the best if not debatably tied as the best Anti Air of all Utilts for an amazing arc with limb intangibility serving as swordlike disjoint. And even if you don't value anti-airs very much conceptually, it's even got guaranteed combo potential from Uthrow and a landing Nair. And it's cons are shared wholly with DK's (9% damage, low to non-existant combo potential, won't kill as early as other options, notably more punishable on whiff or shield compared to S-tier combo-oritented Utilts). His will also feature blindspots in hitbox arc you can observe by placing a target on a platform above and a little behind or in front of DK. The hitbox doesn't match the visual. DK's can kill about 30% earlier with a close hitbox that will only connect behind his character, and I'm not aware just how guaranteed the tipper jab to turnaround Utilt is when it's not a hitstun derived true combo, similar to Bowser's own jab combos into tilts or grabs, but only working at high %. It's just a little known DK trick for fishing a kill when cargo throw no longer works. The quicker startup may seem key, but also results in even more endlag

I stand by that both characters deserve the same tier, but A is just a bit too high in my mind unless you really value anti-air tilts. Players of both would argue for their niche applications while touting their weaknesses as an attack to be used for any other reason. Link I would sooner put into A when it matches the DK/Bowser in many key areas while also straight up killing about 15-25% earlier depending on which of the hitboxes connect.

Rob's is also excellent. Comboing completely on the same realm as Mario/Kirby/Tink, but with less horizontal reach. And I think Utilt to Uair is a true combo even against hitstun cancelling, bur I could be wrong. If it is, we're talking about a frame 4 kill setup. It's a also a good, frame 6 option for Anti-air while not being as laggy as others competing for this same niche. It critically lacks a setup from a throw, or really anything. But if not B tier, I could see this on A just for how dangerous the move is to land in general, as it's clearly got a lot more going for it on hit than Lucario, Sheik, most of B really.

Late but Doc's B-air should be above Mario's.

I'm actually the guy that argued against this. Doc's Bair does exactly one shieldstun more than Mario's and Mario's better speed stats more than make up for the few pixels more that Doc's will push a shielding opponent in terms of safety. But the real kick for putting Mario above Doc is how Mario can perform two Bairs in one shorthop just like Diddy and DK, making for a -6 (OoS) situation that only requires buffered inputs with c-stick as you situate your spacing, rather than Doc's scenario of practicing the timing for a safe Bair. Another caveat for that use of Bair, 4 jump squat plus 6 startup plus Doc spending something in the realm of 18 frames of air time before inputing Bair makes for a 28 frame startup attack that's got a further telegraphed with Doc having his back turned to his opponent. They won't just block it, they could dodge roll past or begin a move with better range/disjoint to challenge it if that's all Doc wants to do with it. It's simply not foolproof against opposing options that don't require a read. Landing with Bair perfectly before can get you a -7 OoS, but that speaks little of how open he is if they were never within reach of the Bair or of how much time is spent of him being vulnerable before the Bair came out. Plus Doc's Bair is among the bottom 5-8 for KB, and he can't go far offstage to use it for edgeguards.

 

[LancerStaff]

multihit utilts that don't kill, have large,vulnerable windows between hitboxes which make them bad for anti-air, and don't reach far forward or at all backward.

Actually the gap doesn't really matter because the hitboxes are gigantic.

It's an alright move. Usable but largely outclassed by Uair and Usmash. Not much to say about this one...

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm actually the guy that argued against this. Doc's Bair does exactly one shieldstun more than Mario's and Mario's better speed stats more than make up for the few pixels more that Doc's will push a shielding opponent in terms of safety. But the real kick for putting Mario above Doc is how Mario can perform two Bairs in one shorthop just like Diddy and DK, making for a -6 (OoS) situation that only requires buffered inputs with c-stick as you situate your spacing, rather than Doc's scenario of practicing the timing for a safe Bair. Another caveat for that use of Bair, 4 jump squat plus 6 startup plus Doc spending something in the realm of 18 frames of air time before inputing Bair makes for a 28 frame startup attack that's got a further telegraphed with Doc having his back turned to his opponent. They won't just block it, they could dodge roll past or begin a move with better range/disjoint to challenge it if that's all Doc wants to do with it. It's simply not foolproof against opposing options that don't require a read. Landing with Bair perfectly before can get you a -7 OoS, but that speaks little of how open he is if they were never within reach of the Bair or of how much time is spent of him being vulnerable before the Bair came out. Plus Doc's Bair is among the bottom 5-8 for KB, and he can't go far offstage to use it for edgeguards.

Two B-airs in a shorthop is massively overrated and not even safe against any good player. There is about a 25 frame gap in between SH double B-air in which to perform an out of shield action. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion of a -6 oos situation when a competent player can act long before Mario can act between B-airs. A good Mario player will SHFF autocancel their B-air for minimum commitment, but this is precisely why Doc's B-air is better.

Far more important is having a *rising aerial that hits the standing cast that is safe on block without retreating*. Mario's higher short hop makes his autocanceled version of B-air noticeably higher commitment, when his B-air doesn't hit as many characters in neutral rising, and furthermore he has to telegraph his commitment more to get an optimal autocancel. More often than not, Mario needs to retreat explicitly to maintain safety on his B-air given he doesn't benefit from the amazing positioning of Doc's extremely low shorthop for microspacing. You are sorely underestimating just how ludicrous it is to have a spammable rising aerial in this game that doesn't sacrifice stage control on shield.

Doc's B-air doesn't need a read if he masters perfect pivot approach. He does a B-air oos in range, and it's a safe 14% nuke that hits on frame 11. That's that, and it's actually braindead. Doc doesn't need to hard read his way around spacing when fundamentally nobody in the right mind will ever do a forward momentum attack on Doc's shield.

Also Doc can go just as far as Mario can offstage by using Tornado recovery in combination with his jump, and his sweetspot version has an extra active frame. Mario under any circumstances does not edgeguard better with his B-air than Doc does realistically.

 

[zeldasmash]

Link's utilt should be higher. Great range, is quick, can combo into itself, easy followup off of dthrow & can kill at high percentages. Way better then simply C tier.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Two B-airs in a shorthop is massively overrated and not even safe against any good player. There is about a 25 frame gap in between SH double B-air in which to perform an out of shield action. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion of a -6 oos situation when a competent player can act long before Mario can act between B-airs. A good Mario player will SHFF autocancel their B-air for minimum commitment, but this is precisely why Doc's B-air is better.

Far more important is having a *rising aerial that hits the standing cast that is safe on block without retreating*. Mario's higher short hop makes his autocanceled version of B-air noticeably higher commitment, when his B-air doesn't hit as many characters in neutral rising, and furthermore he has to telegraph his commitment more to get an optimal autocancel. More often than not, Mario needs to retreat explicitly to maintain safety on his B-air given he doesn't benefit from the amazing positioning of Doc's extremely low shorthop for microspacing. You are sorely underestimating just how ludicrous it is to have a spammable rising aerial in this game that doesn't sacrifice stage control on shield.

Doc's B-air doesn't need a read if he masters perfect pivot approach. He does a B-air oos in range, and it's a safe 14% nuke that hits on frame 11. That's that, and it's actually braindead. Doc doesn't need to hard read his way around spacing when fundamentally nobody in the right mind will ever do a forward momentum attack on Doc's shield.

Also Doc can go just as far as Mario can offstage by using Tornado recovery in combination with his jump, and his sweetspot version has an extra active frame. Mario under any circumstances does not edgeguard better with his B-air than Doc does realistically.

There's definitely an argument to be made about two uses in a shorthop being overrated in top-level play. But having two good uses for a move is 100% better than just one that they'll always anticipate. 25 frame gap between attacks sounds bad before you factor in how much distance was covered in a retreat or how badly the defender can misrespond to a crossup, or how a second attack can be great after you've managed to hit them. We don't ask those three questions in regard to the 27 or so frames you have before Doc's carefully timed Bair is active. As for usage offstage, I didn't make the argument that Mario could use his any better. It's a problem they both have to deal with. Finally with short hop rising Bair going over standing opponents, that's a huge issue for far more characters than just Mario, who can hit the shortest character (greninja) if he's close enough. Furthermore, a shield increases the size of any character's hurtbox considerably to where the specifics stop mattering. Most Bairs factually don't hit anybody when used when rising in order to autocancel. And the ones that do are often just for the tall opponents like Palutena. If anything, Mario is blessed in this regard - Doc even moreso with his reduced height, but hardly enough to make a footnote in a MU discussion. You're also not being clear on how Doc's Bair is best being used. Rising Bair with 11 startup, delayed Bair that still autocancels, landing Bair with best shield advantage. The first and third aren't anything new with B-S tiered Bairs and have their own laundry list of issues in high-level play. Going back to the second, I think you're overestimating it's braindeadedness. There aren't any examples of high-level Docs I can draw from, but I know Mario is capable of the same feet - it's the same attack. And who does it better (better air stats vs. slightly better block push) can really be chalked up to opinion. But the idea of these two sharing the same tier wouldn't offend me; they're not my lists. I would voice my opinion over why I prefer Mario's and that's the end of it. I spend so much time in this thread that I try my best not to nitpick when 58 characters need to be addressed. As I remember the Bair discussion going, Mario did share A tier before we discussed two uses in a shorthop being a cool and unique application for an attack.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Doc's buffered rising SHFFAC B-air is -13 on block. And you basically don't need to be absolutely right next to people to connect with it rising unlike Mario's, and you can still delay it a few frames on activation and still be low enough to connect it on the majority of the cast, very much unlike Mario's.

I'm not sure how much more braindead you can get, without being Brawl MK's U-air honestly. Mario can't just literally do a rising B-air in your face and expect it to be safe without weaving away. Doc in several cases in contrast literally can just rising B-air your face and expect it to be safe with virtually no fadeback as long as he isn't overcommitting to forward momentum.

 

[Ffamran]

multihit utilts that don't kill, have large,vulnerable windows between hitboxes which make them bad for anti-air, and don't reach far forward or at all backward. Sonic's can lead into a Spring jumped Fair at high percent range, but it's not noteworthy.

Regarding the Pits, their Utilt hits 1(1)3(4)2. The only largest gap is between the second and last and it's not that bad. In Smash, frame gaps only become bad and high when they're around 6 and have low (set) knockback which the second hit doesn't seem to have (compared to Falco's which didn't help when they reduced the last hits active frames which increased the frame gap from 3 to 5 frames. Man, I loved getting hit out of the last freaking hit at times... WHAT THE-) Anyway, I think it probably has to deal with how Smash handles knockback and hit stun together. Other fighting games have like 12 frame gaps on multi-hits and they're fine, but in Smash, nope. If they do, it's probably going to be a Final Smash or something very controlled.

Just checked, and Meta Knight's ground and aerial Shuttle Loop has a 9 frame gap between its hits, making it hit 5(9)6 grounded and 4(9)7 in the air. First hit does a ton of base, 90 ground and 120 or 70 aerial, but only 10 growth, but there are times it'll drop. It's not like seeing Nash's EX Sonic Scythe hitting 3(3)3(26)7 or Ken's heavy Tatsumaki having +10 frame gaps so it hits 4(12)2(10)2(10)3. Anyway, I digress...

For Sonic, it's basically Captain Falcon's Up Smash if it was much faster, but also much weaker... It has higher active frames for its hits, but has a higher frame gap. Captain Falcon's hits 1(5)1 -- I kid you not for those unaware and that his Up Smash really only has 2 active frames while being a frame 22 move -- while Sonic's hits 3(8)2. Why it has an 8 frame gap, I don't know. It might drop people, but I don't know. If it does, then welp... Welp.

Actually the gap doesn't really matter because the hitboxes are gigantic.

It's an alright move. Usable but largely outclassed by Uair and Usmash. Not much to say about this one...

Outside of the last hit and even then, the hitboxes don't look that big.

Spoiler: Pit's Utilt

They're not that great, I don't think they're even good for anti-airs which in the Pits' situation, why Utilt when all your other, naturally disjointed moves exist. They're probably better off anti-airing with jab or Ftilt. Even Up Smash as risky as that will be, but not as risky as Utilt which isn't disjointed and kind of has high recovery at 27 frames (which is 3 more than Captain Falcon's 24). For Sonic, he at least doesn't really have, "I have disjoints on everything, so this Utilt would be pointless for anti-airing", as a reason and there are some good, which the Pits also possess: low startup and high active frames that could make them meaty hits and in Sonic's case, his has all right recovery at 21 frames. And then everything falls apart when you realize this move has an 8 frame gap for some reason, probably doesn't have Capt.''s stupid, mirrored leg hitbox that makes it disjointed on the ground allowing him to hit below the ledge and has existed since Melee when the move was changed from his uppercut in 64, and it's not really that strong in damage or knockback. It kind of sucks since these are moves that are rare. Nobody outside of Cloud who has it for an U-throw, has a kick Capt. and Sonic have and nobody but the Pits have this weird triple kick. I've said it about Falco's Up Smash before it was patched as being this pointless, but flashy kick -- pun intended -- and it's this way with Capt.'s Up Smash, the Pits' Utilt, and Sonic's Utilt. Oh well.

Spoiler: Captain Falcon's Up Smash for anyone curious

Melee.

Smash 4.

Spoiler: Captain Falcon's Up Smash

 

[LancerStaff]

Outside of the last hit and even then, the hitboxes don't look that big.

They're not that great, I don't think they're even good for anti-airs which in the Pits' situation, why Utilt when all your other, naturally disjointed moves exist. They're probably better off anti-airing with jab or Ftilt. Even Up Smash as risky as that will be, but not as risky as Utilt which isn't disjointed and kind of has high recovery at 27 frames (which is 3 more than Captain Falcon's 24). For Sonic, he at least doesn't really have, "I have disjoints on everything, so this Utilt would be pointless for anti-airing", as a reason and there are some good, which the Pits also possess: low startup and high active frames that could make them meaty hits and in Sonic's case, his has all right recovery at 21 frames. And then everything falls apart when you realize this move has an 8 frame gap for some reason, probably doesn't have Capt.''s stupid, mirrored leg hitbox that makes it disjointed on the ground allowing him to hit below the ledge and has existed since Melee when the move was changed from his uppercut in 64, and it's not really that strong in damage or knockback. It kind of sucks since these are moves that are rare. Nobody outside of Cloud who has it for an U-throw, has a kick Capt. and Sonic have and nobody but the Pits have this weird triple kick. I've said it about Falco's Up Smash before it was patched as being this pointless, but flashy kick -- pun intended -- and it's this way with Capt.'s Up Smash, the Pits' Utilt, and Sonic's Utilt. Oh well.

Seems pretty big to me... There's hitboxes extending way past his feet.

Jab 1 and Ftilt lack any real anti-air capabilities, like Marth's Jab. They decided somewhere in there that moves designed to hit people on the ground should strictly hit people on the ground... Jab 3 matches the animation perfectly, which is basically Cloud's Usmash, so that fairs much better. You don't see it much being a Jab 3, dealing low damage, and mashing too fast results in a Rapid Jab instead, which is basically the equivalent of a Ryu Tatsu-ing off the stage instead of doing a Hadoken.

Back to actual anti-airs, the main two are Uair and Usmash, like I said. Utilt has less start-up (yes, for AA hitboxes) then Uair and is less of a commitment then both. The drawbacks are that the hitboxes aren't as wide, it doesn't do as much damage as either with just the AA hitboxes, there's less active frames, and it doesn't kill like Usmash. Pit wouldn't be that much worse off without Utilt but it's not exactly garbage either.

 

[Ffamran]

Seems pretty big to me... There's hitboxes extending way past his feet.

Jab 1 and Ftilt lack any real anti-air capabilities, like Marth's Jab. They decided somewhere in there that moves designed to hit people on the ground should strictly hit people on the ground... Jab 3 matches the animation perfectly, which is basically Cloud's Usmash, so that fairs much better. You don't see it much being a Jab 3, dealing low damage, and mashing too fast results in a Rapid Jab instead, which is basically the equivalent of a Ryu Tatsu-ing off the stage instead of doing a Hadoken.

Back to actual anti-airs, the main two are Uair and Usmash, like I said. Utilt has less start-up (yes, for AA hitboxes) then Uair and is less of a commitment then both. The drawbacks are that the hitboxes aren't as wide, it doesn't do as much damage as either with just the AA hitboxes, there's less active frames, and it doesn't kill like Usmash. Pit wouldn't be that much worse off without Utilt but it's not exactly garbage either.

Eh, whatever on hitbox size. Anyway, I forgot that the Pits have static hitboxes for most of their moves... From what I'm gathering and looking through the available hitbox viewers and through poor memory, only Falco and Lucario have jabs that start off high, but Lucario's starts really close to his body and more vertically while Falco's is away and out. For Lucina and Marth, they do swing up and their hitboxes do follow the animation unlike the Pits. Luci and Mar-Mar can definitely anti-air with it along with Utilt, Ftilt, Side Smash, Dolphin Slash, and Up Smash if you're feeling brave.

Back to the Pits, outside of being uppercuts, I don't really see the similarities between Cloud's Up Smash and the Pits' Jab 3. Cloud swings down in front to behind him with hitboxes moving accordingly. As an Up Smash it has more in common with Ike's and could be considered a narrower, more vertical version to Ike's wider, more horizontal version. As a move, it probably has more in common with Shulk's Utilt which kind of mirror's another C and S having an Utilt be similar to an Up Smash. The Pits' Jab 3 starts waist high to Cloud's Up Smash starting around shin high and theirs stops at above their heads. Another thing, despite the sword length differences, the Pits' Jab 3 is more horizontal since they lean forward while Cloud's Up Smash is focused on hitting upwards.

Also, you don't have to tap jab combos out. Once one of the hits confirm, you can just hold down attack and the rest will follow through. For most jabs that are 3-hit jabs, there's no real problem, but for some like characters who have a 3-hit jab and a rapid jab or only have a rapid jab, there's some issues, like Duck Hunt's 3-hit jab is really slow or Falco having a very slow transition from jab 2 to rapid jab if you hold instead of tapping. Oh, and Little Mac's the only character with both a 3-hit jab and a rapid jab that has the opposite happen where holding results in a rapid jab instead of a 3-hit jab. Why? I don't know, but for some people like his players who want to use jab 3, it's annoying and confusing. Anyway, I digress. This is Utilt time not jab and Up Smash time.

Hitbox threads directory: http://smashboards.com/threads/hitbox-visualization-compilation.432936/, since I'm not going to flood this post with spoilers of gifs showing Lucina and Marth's anti-air moves, Falco and Lucario having high-starting jabs, comparing Cloud's Up Smash with Ike and the Pits', etc.

On Utilts, I would like to give a shout-out to PAC-MAN's. Why? I don't know. I know jack about him, but one thing's for certain and it's that his apparently makes his head invincible during the move. Actually has head invincibility 1 frame before its startup, so 6-10 to its 7 frame startup. That's 4 total active frames plus 5 total I-frames. Is it a good move? Seems to have decent startup, average 24 frames of recovery, a very vertical 96 hit angle, and good knockback at 50 base and 100 growth. The only problem outside of having a "small" hitbox which is kind of weird since PAC-MAN's pretty much a head with arms and legs is that it only does 7%. Right now, it's looking like a faster, but weaker version to Triple D's. Still, since I don't know anything about him, I'm probably not the person to listen to, but the fact it's got head invincibility and it being relatively fast. It's probably a decent anti-air and at worst, probably C-tier and not D-tier.

Also, even though Ness's Utilt might not be considered good, the hitbox being a disjoint courtesy of Ness using PK powers or whatever it's called could put it in a similar situation as Bowser Jr's...

Mediocre and situational. The range is pathetic but it can be used to extend some combos near the ground, a mixup to catch a landing, and a clutch killer with rage/high %. Overshadowed by everything that is good about Ness. D tier IMO. Ness' ground moves bar jabs, dash attack and Down Smash are all mediocre and situational at best.

Dude, the vertical range looks really good considering how Ness is a kid... who's short like most kids...

Spoiler: Ness's Utilt

At worse, it should be an average C-tier Utilt. At worse. Which kind of seems the case since it has 2 active frames and not really high damage despite its pretty high knockback. Still decently fast and like I said, it's disjointed which would make it fairly good for anti-airing at the least, however, it can't anti-air like say, Marth's which I explained with Falco's. You'd need to be under the opponent and anti-air by putting a hitbox under them rather than next to them like Fox and Marth do. Ness at least has Up Smash for a horizontal anti-air.

Also, I'm on the Pally's Utilt is good train... jet... whatever. It's her fastest tilt at an average 10 frame startup. Yes, it forces her to commit hard, but has an average recovery of 27 frames and all the hits are recoilless like Little Mac's Utilt. Pally's dash attack, Utilt, and Up Smash are like Anti-air the Moves starring Palutena. High active frames and low profile makes it a good land trap. It and Dtilt are Pally's arguably best tilts, for just Utilt, I think it could be in C-tier -- which is basically arguing that it should be kind of average from being not kind of average --, especially compared to Olimar and Wii Fit Trainer's Utilt which aren't recoiless, aren't low profile, and don't have as wide of a hitbox as Pally's. Theirs are faster and they don't have to commit as hard as Pally, but they lack the protection Pally's has along with Bowser Jr., Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, PAC-MAN, and Wario. I think D-tier should only be Olimar and Wii Fit Trainer. The others have more over them mostly in terms of protection through disjoints, invincibility, or is recoilless for Pally.

Speaking of which, Wario's Utilt is head and hands invincible from frames 5-23. Its invincibility starts 7 frames before its first hitbox at frame 12 and lasts until the last active hitbox. That's 19 I-frames with the move itself being active for 12 frames. Oh, and his hands look like they stretch, so...

Definitely not a D-tier Utilt. The only thing that hurts it is its 12 frame startup and that it's not a strong move, but I don't think his Utilt is used for KO'ing. Otherwise, it's meaty meaning it has high active frames, presumably safe if it has that many I-frames and makes his head and enlarged hands invincible which at the very least would make it really stupid for anti-airing and land trapping, and it has low recovery at 13 frames. Yes, you have to commit to its 12 active frames, but 13 recovery frames is really good for a move. Welp, that's all for today. Stay tuned next time for more of Ffamran Spews More Bull****™.

 

[LancerStaff]

Also, you don't have to tap jab combos out. Once one of the hits confirm, you can just hold down attack and the rest will follow through. For most jabs that are 3-hit jabs, there's no real problem, but for some like characters who have a 3-hit jab and a rapid jab or only have a rapid jab, there's some issues, like Duck Hunt's 3-hit jab is really slow or Falco having a very slow transition from jab 2 to rapid jab if you hold instead of tapping. Oh, and Little Mac's the only character with both a 3-hit jab and a rapid jab that has the opposite happen where holding results in a rapid jab instead of a 3-hit jab. Why? I don't know, but for some people like his players who want to use jab 3, it's annoying and confusing. Anyway, I digress. This is Utilt time not jab and Up Smash time.

Actually with Pit holding A will make him do the whole 1, 2, 3 without even hitting anything. The reason you'd want to tap for a Jab 3 is that he does it all pretty slowly... Perfectly timed for if he hits something though.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Imo Lucas should go up. It true combos out of DThrow at low percents for an easy 17%, and can lead into a potential juggle. It also comes out very early, and has great vertical range. Should move up to B.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Obviously too late now for the Up Bs, but apparently ROB's Up B can still help a little bit even when completely empty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clNSw3HtUus

tl;dr version is: if you run out of fuel but kept your second jump, if you second jump + Up B you get more height out of the second jump (Just under 30% more, as it gained 2 rows and it used to reach 7 rows) + possibly better magnet hands. Its interesting at least, particularly if the magnet hands bit ends up being true.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok update time:

Spoiler: Final Up-Tilt

TL;DR:
B -> A
B -> A
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
D-> C
D -> C
D -> C

Ok so with that done, we will now move on to our next topic of discussion in Down-Tilt. A preliminary list will come up the following day as always.

 

[Fenny]

Bayo's Dtilt is one of the best pokes in the game, is her fastest tilt, her best combo starter and a 50/50 kill confirm. Even after the slight nerf to its range, it's still amazingly useful. A tier, minimum.

Lucas' Dtilt is nice as well. You can pull off Sanji-tier kick chains with that and his jab, sets up his grab and can confirm into his F-smash.

 

[LRodC]

Mewtwo's down tilt for S tier. It comes out frame 6 with excellent range, it is a main combo starter and spacing tool, and it is a large part of the character's playstyle.