Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy and Mewtwo deserve their own tier when it comes to dtilt. Both moves are exceptionally overpowered and allow for virtually no direct counterplay, and as such they are a major part of why these characters are top tier characters to begin with.

I guess I can see an argument made for Little Mac to be in the same league but even Bayonetta - as undeniably great as her dtilt is - falls just short in my opinion, even though it's one of her best and most important tools in neutral. But when it comes to Diddy's or Mewtwo's dtilt we aren't simply talking about stuff that makes them great characters. We're literally talking about metagame defining options here.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ike in the same tier as Falcon? What is this?

First of all, it has nearly the same broken disjointed range as Mew2's dtilt and most of the same functions. It also does almost twice the damage at every part of the hitbox

It can combo into nearly every move in Ike's kit which is a ****load of damage no matter what it is, and against a character like Ike you really need to watch your %

Spoiler

 

[Kofu]

Ok so here is the initial list for Down-Tilt:

Spoiler: Down-Tilt

Discuss!

I'm not sure why Fox's is B. The move seems really mediocre compared to the rest of his kit and I don't see it used a lot. Falco's seems a lot better than Fox's. I don't play the character, though, so I could be wrong.

Samus's could probably go down.

Ike, DK, Zelda, Bowser, ROB, and probably Mega Man, Dedede, and Falcon could be moved up. Heck, DK's, Ike's, and ROB's could be contenders for A.

Villager's DTilt is probably fine where it is but it's a pretty good move despite being frame 9. Sweetspotted it does 13% and it still does 8% at a distance. At lower percents it can set up for an aerial string and it kills at high percents (usually beginning around 130% with no rage).

I personally think Game & Watch's DTilt is worth more than D tier but I understand it's placing. It's low damage, mediocre range, doesn't set up for followups, and kind of laggy. Despite its problems, however, it still manages to be a frame 6 kill move, particularly at the ledge, and can function as a "get off me" move (though Jab is usually better). I find its windbox to be useful on occasion as well. It does an excellent job at messing up the intended trajectories of recovery moves and, every once in a while, aerial approaches. As noted, it also can deflect thrown items. It's especially good against recoveries that don't snap to the ledge or attempted recoveries onto the stage.

 

[Fenny]

Ok so here is the initial list for Down-Tilt:

Spoiler: Down-Tilt

Discuss!

>Bayo over Mewtwo's and Little Mac's

Nah fam, Mewtwo's is outright dumb. Stupidly fast for the amount of range it has, good OoS option and it can combo into a plethora of his attacks. Mac's Dtilt isn't only the fastest in the game but it combos into just about everything he has and is a surprisingly effective edgeguard tool.

IMO, Bayo's falls under those three.

 

[Airpoizon]

I'm not sure why Fox's is B. The move seems really mediocre compared to the rest of his kit and I don't see it used a lot. Falco's seems a lot better than Fox's. I don't play the character, though, so I could be wrong.

Just so you know the tip of Foxes d tilt can link into an up air for a kill confirm.

 

[Fenny]

As for Diddy's...well...

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Kofu]

Just so you know the tip of Foxes d tilt can link into an up air for a kill confirm.

I figured there was something I was missing. It doesn't seem like a bad DTilt, just that there are better ones for combos and Fox himself typically has better options. A kill confirm is pretty great though.

 

[Lorde]

>Bayo over Mewtwo's and Little Mac's

Nah fam, Mewtwo's is outright dumb. Stupidly fast for the amount of range it has, good OoS option and it can combo into a plethora of his attacks. Mac's Dtilt isn't only the fastest in the game but it combos into just about everything he has and is a surprisingly effective edgeguard tool.

IMO, Bayo's falls under those three.

I'm not disagreeing, but you're misinformed.

There's no order within the tiers. It's a coincidence that hers is above Mewtwo and Little Mac. What we're discussing is what tier each move belongs in, not which spot exactly it is (third, nineteenth, etc.).

And to play devil's advocate, Bayo's dtilt is decently fast, one of her best OOS options, and combos into most of her kit.

But yeah, Mewtwo's is definitely better. I'm not completely sure about Little Mac's, though.

 

[ARGHETH]

Mac's Dtilt isn't only the fastest in the game

Actually, Ryu's light Dtilt is faster (2-3, FAF of 16).

 

[Fenny]

I'm not disagreeing, but you're misinformed.

There's no order within the tiers. It's a coincidence that hers is above Mewtwo and Little Mac. What we're discussing is what tier each move belongs in, not which spot exactly it is (third, nineteenth, etc.).

And to play devil's advocate, Bayo's dtilt is decently fast, one of her best OOS options, and combos into most of her kit.

But yeah, Mewtwo's is definitely better. I'm not completely sure about Little Mac's, though.

Ah, I see. My bad.

And I say LM's is better because having the potential to follow it up with basically his entire kit, including a shield-ignoring OHKO move, really isn't something to be underestimated at all.

 

[Y2Kay]

As for Diddy's...well...

There was a problem fetching the tweet

quality twitter post @Peppermint1201

 

[Masonomace]

I'd give a rating & reasoning about why Shulk's Dtilt isn't D tier, but I have little time. Dtilt to Shulk is his best grounded tilt & the only thing that holds it back is it being frame 10. However, the move has superior range compared to his Ftilt & aside from that it is well-used when perfect pivoted for spacing with the sourspot.

Blade/Beam is the format look for what is safe on block on drop or oos in Buster art:
-5/-6 on drop
-12/-13 in oos

So yeah. I'll be back later to edit this or just make another post going in depth.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Seconding that Diddy and Mewtwo need their own S+ tier for their Dtilts. Those are moves so good that if put onto other characters, most of those other characters would move up a tier simply due to the sheer safety/options those Dtilts provide.

That would leave Ryu, Little Mac, and Bayonetta in S tier, which seems right to me.

DK, Ike, and ROB all need to have their Dtilts move up... A tier is a maybe on them. Depends on how you want to define the difference between A tier and B tier. I do see those three Dtilts as more useful than most of B tier's... maybe bring Marth/Lucina/Roy up with them? idk about that for sure, but those three Dtilts (Ike/DK/ROB) stand out a lot. DK and ROB in particular.

 

[jet56]

I also think an S+ tier is needed, but little mac should be up there with mew2 and Diddy. The reason being that their Dtilts all have similar properties, comboing into everything, insane range and frame data, safe in neutral, etc. I'm not going to argue the semantics of each individual one because they are too close in comparison anyways, but I do believe they are in a class of their own.

 

[LRodC]

Don't make an S+ tier. Move everything else down.

I think Mewtwo, Diddy, Little Mac, and possibly Bayonetta belong in S, and everything else can just move down accordingly.

 

[Ffamran]

Also, I would move Samus' down a tier. It has too much ending lag for how weak it is.

It does 12%. Of course it wouldn't have good or even average recovery. It's pretty much a (utility) Smash as a tilt which her Down Smash sort of is the opposite as a tilt for a Down Smash... Anyway, it's decently fast on startup and has average 3 active frames, so an average tilt. What makes it stand out and different from other tilts and different from other Dtilts is its damage and knockback. High damage and low overall knockback from having very high base, 80, and low growth, 48, makes it a mean whiff punish. It won't KO like the others -- it actually might since the really high base would benefit from rage much more than having low base and high growth --, but it will always put on damage the others might not. Add in that at low to mid-? -- I don't play Samus, so I don't know -- percents, Samus can follow-up with Fair and maybe Nair, Uair, and Bair. At high percents, it's going to send you up in a pretty terrible spot with its almost vertical hit angle of 80 degrees.

It's not the best of Dtilts, but I don't think it's average at C-tier. At worst it's average, but it boasts consistent high damage which as of the current listing, only Charizard (10%), Ganondorf (13%), and Link (11%) would rival hers. Of those 3, only Link comes close to working like Samus's, but Link's followups aren't as varied as Samus's not the mention being slower doesn't really help him. In frame data, Link's is pretty much Samus's; differences being it's 5 frames slower at 11 to Samus's 6, has 1 less active frame to Samus's, has lower recovery at 17 frames to Samus's 32, and the spike hitbox on his arm? while the sword hitbox has the same hit angle and similar high base, 90, and low growth, 30, like Samus's. Also, there's probably a hitbox difference, but I'm not sure exactly. It's probably that Link's is parallel to the ground since Samus's hits at an angle and has a big enough hitbox it can go over and under the ledge: http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-hitbox-visualization.432829/. In a way, Link trades startup speed for lower recovery while Samus's takes startup speed for higher recovery. Working with sweet-spots and sour-spots would only put Falco (12% / 11% / 9%), Marth (7% / 10%), and Roy (11% / 6.5%) as rivaling Samus's Dtilt damage, but it's not going to be consistent, especially Falco's, and I'm not sure if Marth and Roy have reliably set-ups from Dtilt.

As I said, I'm not a Samus player, but I do think Samus's Dtilt could stay in B-tier for its decently fast startup, consistently high damage, ability to set up, and being a disjoint. The only downsides to her Dtilt is the high, for a tilt, 32 recovery and its knockback not making it a strong KO option which kind of is shared with not just Link, but also Marth and Roy (and Falco, but that's because of it's 3 different hitboxes making it really inconsistent). Also, Mii Gunner's Dtilt is basically Samus's, but it has higher damage, 14%, slightly better recovery at 31 frames -- Yay! 1 less recovery frame, except I think it's only for medium Miis... I don't know much about Miis --, and higher growth at 60. The only downside to Mii Gunner's? 2 more startup at 8 frames to Samus's 6 and the fact Mii Fighters tend to be banned for whatever reason, but that's another story. So, wherever Samus goes, Mii Gunner should probably follow. If Samus drops to C-, then Mii Gunner should stay. If Samus stays in B- or inexplicably moves up to A or down to F, then Mii Gunner should follow.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I argue Pac-man's D-tilt is C tier.
It's 2 frames safer then F-tilit, comes out fast, has a decently large hitbox with okay range.
I say rise just a little.

Bowser is either A or at least B for me, it has good range, does good damage especially at low percents, it's disjointed and can kill opponents by the ledge. (Some while holding the ledge if if their hurtbox is sticking up)

 

[Crystanium]

I don't think you understand quite how ridiculous Mewtwo's dtilt is. Mewtwo's dtilt combos into freaking everything. You can do dtilt to fair, dtilt to nair, dtilt to uair, I've even seen someone combo dtilt into running up smash. It's one of the best combo moves in the game. It combos at low percents to build damage, and it combos at high percents to kill with fair.

Samus's dtilt does not do any of these things.

I checked your claims. The first combo relies on Mewtwo being close. I tried hitting with the tip of his tail, but did not get the results. D-tilt only caused a 9x combo, which was the same as if I did a jump while performing n-air without d-tilt. At 25% and up, d-tilt to u-air worked, but Mewtwo had to be close. I kept getting 7x combo with and without d-tilt, which tells me it can be avoided.

Now, Samus'd-tilt may not lead into combos, but it does give her time to charge her CS and leave her opponent airborne, which allows her to use any of her aerials. The results I tested for Mewtwo were without DI, so that may change things, but not for the better. Yes, Samus' d-tilt doesn't lead into combos. It doesn't need to. Yes, it's not a KO move like it was in SSBB, though being on a platform increases the risk, as do lower ceilings. However, it can be used safely, given its distance. It is only 6 frames. It deals 12% damage, whereas super missiles do 10%. It has more knock-back.

I'm sticking with A tier.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo's down tilt is only safe at the very tip. If you want a high reward combo, you're going to have to give the safety up. The same thing applies to Mewtwo's forward air.

Regardless, the ability to switch from a safe poke to a combo starter or kill move is amazing for the character.

 

[Lord Dio]

*sees Cloud at the top spot for dair and nair*
hahaha yesss I love it
*Sees Cloud at number 3 for uair*
Imo it's #1, but that's debatable. Still, good rankings.

 

[arbustopachon]

*sees Cloud at the top spot for dair and nair*
hahaha yesss I love it
*Sees Cloud at number 3 for uair*
Imo it's #1, but that's debatable. Still, good rankings.

Moves are not ranked within their tier.

 

[Lord Dio]

Ahhh My bad there.

 

[zblaqk]

I checked your claims The first combo relies on Mewtwo being close. I tried hitting with the tip of his tail, but did not get the results. D-tilt only caused a 9x combo, which was the same as if I did a jump while performing n-air. At 25% and up, d-tilt to u-air worked, but Mewtwo had to be close. I kept getting 7x combo with and without d-tilt, which tells me it can be avoided.

Now, Samus'd-tilt may not lead into combos, but it does give her time to charge her CS and leave her opponent airborne, which allows her to use any of her aerials. The results I tested for Mewtwo were without DI, so that may change things, but not for the better. Yes, Samus' d-tilt doesn't lead into combos. It doesn't need to. Yes, it's not a KO move like it was in SSBB, though being on a platform increases the risk, as do lower ceilings. However, it can be used safely, given its distance. It is only 6 frames. It deals 12% damage, whereas super missiles do 10%. It has more knock-back.

I'm sticking with A tier.

I personally think its B Tier, even with the fact that if properly spaced, it's safe on shield.

 

[Crystanium]

I personally think its B Tier, even with the fact that if properly spaced, it's safe on shield.

Perhaps. But I would move it up on the tier list in Funbot's tier list.

 

[ARGHETH]

Perhaps. But I would move it up on the tier list in Funbot's tier list.

You really think it's MK/Kirby/Corrin/Sheik tier?

 

[Crystanium]

You really think it's MK/Kirby/Corrin/Sheik tier?

I think it should be moved up in the B tier.

 

[HoSmash4]

Mewtwo's down tilt is only safe at the very tip. If you want a high reward combo, you're going to have to give the safety up. The same thing applies to Mewtwo's forward air.

Regardless, the ability to switch from a safe poke to a combo starter or kill move is amazing for the character.

Sheik Fair has the same property as well (Except max range fair combos into bf in mid)

 

[ARGHETH]

I think it should be moved up in the B tier.

Aren't they not ordered within tiers, though?

But either way it's probably around where Falco/Roy are.

 

[Crystanium]

Aren't they not ordered within tiers, though?

But either way it's probably around where Falco/Roy are.

The attacks are, but I'm saying it should move up. Really, on a stand alone criteria, Mewtwo only beats Samus in terms of FAF, so on its own, Samus' d-tilt is better. Introducing combos relies on Mewtwo being closer. I'm not even certain if d-tilt to n-air is actually a true combo because I ended up with 9x with and without d-tilt. I'd like to point out that during my matches against my brother last night, I took advantage of the 2 frames when he was returning to the stage and I was able to not only d-tilt, but follow up with f-air. I think the reason is because my brother was lower, so this gave me time to follow up. Whether or not it's a true combo, I don't know, but I did not fail at every moment it happened.

 

[Kofu]

The attacks are, but I'm saying it should move up. Really, on a stand alone criteria, Mewtwo only beats Samus in terms of FAF, so on its own, Samus' d-tilt is better. Introducing combos relies on Mewtwo being closer. I'm not even certain if d-tilt to n-air is actually a true combo because I ended up with 9x with and without d-tilt. I'd like to point out that during my matches against my brother last night, I took advantage of the 2 frames when he was returning to the stage and I was able to not only d-tilt, but follow up with f-air. I think the reason is because my brother was lower, so this gave me time to follow up. Whether or not it's a true combo, I don't know, but I did not fail at every moment it happened.

C'mon man, you're smarter than this.

First, moves aren't ranked within tiers like it says on the first post.

Second, the lower FAF (as well as knockback and damage) that sets Mewtwo's DTilt apart from Samus's is huge. Samus gets more immediate reward off of hers (twice the damage, obviously), Mewtwo has so many more followups that allow for more damage and even kills. It true combos into (off the top of my head) FAir, NAir, UAir, UTilt, USmash, Jab, and probably more, depending on the target and their percent. Its range and speed combined with its combo potential are what make it so good. Samus's deals a solid blow and has good range but can't quite match up to the potential Mewtwo's has. If it killed like it did in Brawl it would be better.

Third, no one's claiming that Samus's DTilt has no followups, just that they're a lot more difficult, uncommon, and generally less rewarding than Mewtwo's.

 

[Masonomace]

Dtilts in general as others mention, can kinda go in several categories not to mention that there are a lot of good Dtilts.

I feel that & could warrant a rank ↑ for their said reasons, but I actually think that could warrant a rank ↓.


seems very clear to me to warrant B tier when you can use the move's data & applications to have BnBs to the max. It's a very important tool to Ike & in a vacuum spectrum I would think that a lot of characters would trade their Dtilt for his. The move sets up into very convenient moments & using this tilt with a turnaround motion AND spaced is just godlike.


Dtilt reminds me of a mixture between & , yet I see Dtilt ranked in. . .C tier?? There's no way. This mechon's Dtilt must be at least A tier if we're saying that is S tier & is A tier. Dtilt has faster startup with much less endlag & only deals 1% less damage & is active for only one frame compared to 3 frames for . Plus, mechon's Dtilt has more horizontal range as well.


Dtilt like I mentioned in a previous doesn't warrant D tier, at least to me. Primary character bias could be factored in, but this move definitely has traits about it that warrant at least C tier for reasons being superior range to other Dtilts, damage is slightly high, endlag is mediocre, kb° as well as the BKB & KBG values can be followed up with full-horizontal chases like in Jump or Speed, & the move is generally a neat tilt to poke shields from spaced distances in Neutral or shield pressuring in Buster / juggling big damage. I could say B tier, but then I'd think of how not-great it is for other purposes like the lack-of kill potential it has, how it's not exactly a true combo followup with his Fair or dash grab unless they DI in, or how the angle isn't as high enough for better chasing. Plus, the move is frame 10 startup. I mean, & remind me of Shulk's Dtilt a bit, but they have frame 6 startup with horizontal range that rivals , the endlag is identical but deals more damage & is stronger & can pressure mid-range better. Eh it's optional I guess. C or B tier from me.


however, I feel warrants a rank ↓ for a few reasons. Yeah, the move is active for four frames, startup is frame 9, & the endlag is low. . .yet the move has too high of KBG for it to really follow-up better at mid to high percents, & the kb° make it awkward for to go for the chase. It's good early percent & all as you can get dash grab into Uthrow combos, but once you pass that moment's pace in the match, it's just a "sure why not use it" tilt & doesn't have a great amount of usage to it. Despite that it has good frame data traits, it's practicality & applications are decent, kinda like C tier.

 

[Anomilus]

Strong recommendation for to move up to B Rank, if mainly because almost every other character in C Rank has something lacking about their D-Tilt while most in B Rank have noticeably better or safer D-Tilts. Starts on frame 4, 3-hit attack covering 21 frames, 15 frame recovery. Very good for pushing opponents out of your space. Doesn't lead into anything though. Still though definitely a very solid ground option.

Dtilt reminds me of a mixture between & , yet I see Dtilt ranked in. . .C tier?? There's no way. This mechon's Dtilt must be at least A tier if we're saying that is S tier & is A tier. Dtilt has faster startup with much less endlag & only deals 1% less damage & is active for only one frame compared to 3 frames for . Plus, mechon's Dtilt has more horizontal range as well.

Indeed, no reason whatsover why should remain in C-Tier. It's nigh unpunishable except by overuse, super-fast, can trip opponents. Range isn't amazing, but for its speed it doesn't need to be. Heck, I'd suggest A-Tier as well if Kirby's D-Tilt is considered A-Tier material.

 

[Anomilus]

sorry, double post

 

[LRodC]

I agree with a rise for R.O.B. It's a great poke at close range and it sets up well into grabs. I think Zelda's needs to rise as well. It's an nice combo starter/poke, and it's Zelda's fastest move. Look at Izaw's Art of Zelda video to see what it's capable of.

 

[Crystanium]

C'mon man, you're smarter than this.

First, moves aren't ranked within tiers like it says on the first post.

Second, the lower FAF (as well as knockback and damage) that sets Mewtwo's DTilt apart from Samus's is huge. Samus gets more immediate reward off of hers (twice the damage, obviously), Mewtwo has so many more followups that allow for more damage and even kills. It true combos into (off the top of my head) FAir, NAir, UAir, UTilt, USmash, Jab, and probably more, depending on the target and their percent. Its range and speed combined with its combo potential are what make it so good. Samus's deals a solid blow and has good range but can't quite match up to the potential Mewtwo's has. If it killed like it did in Brawl it would be better.

Third, no one's claiming that Samus's DTilt has no followups, just that they're a lot more difficult, uncommon, and generally less rewarding than Mewtwo's.

I've already addressed the risk Mewtwo has to make to follow d-tilt to combos, and I recall two of the ones listed by the other person does not appear to be combos, since the combos register the same thing without d-tilt.

Samus cannot follow up with d-tilt. I'd need to test to see if using d-tilt on an opponent below the stage to f-air is a true combo. I only stated that everytime I did that to my brother, it always landed. That opportunity only occurred because by the time my brother was hit by d-tilt from below the stage, I had time to use f-air.

So Mewtwo has better FAF and can follow up with combos if close up. Samus lacks these, though opponents below the stage might allow for combos. I've only tried f-air. Samus has better damage and knock-back. Being on platforms and rage can be KO potential. D-tilt for Samus is a good edge-guard. Not sure about Mewtwo. Is it possible to DI from Mewtwo's d-tilt?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Zelda's definitly needs to be B at worst, it's one of her best moves easily and Izaw has videos showing all the possible things it can lead to, like Uair Fair or Bair, DA, jab, grab, another Dtilt and more.

 

[ReroRero]

And to think that Mewtwo's Dtilt was unchanged since day one hahaha

Also Ike's Dtilt is probably his best move along with his Fair. It's safe on shield when correctly spaced (which isnt hard since its range is good), it combos into various things, the startup is great for a character like Ike and you can basically depends on it when it comes to neutral with that. Rank A at least.

 

[Masonomace]

Anomilus Yeah I agree as well about mechon's Dtilt. It's easily a great tilt.

LRodC Dee-SmashinBoss I too agree with a Zelda rank ↑. Good tilt for her, in fact it's been one of her better moves for a long time now. I at first was planning on discussing about it's rank ↑ in my post until I felt a lack of confidence to bring supportive reasoning to the upgrade.

ReroRero Now that I think about my post, I wish it would of said A rank especially when I think of a spaced Dtilt on block or just spaced in general. It's a solid move with no sourspots, so there's no special spacing required & it follows up greatly. Although, I think the move is in the middle of A & B tier but I'm fine with A tier too.

 

[LRodC]

I'd argue A for Zelda's down tilt. Unfortunately, people like to associate move viability with character viability which prevents good moves on poor characters from being noticed.

If this was pre-buff Mewtwo, I bet people that weren't Mewtwo mains wouldn't have even suggested it for S tier since he wasn't a good character, despite the move never changing since his release.

Move viability is separate from character viability always. Don't overrate or underrate moves based on the characters they're on.

 

[Masonomace]

Coming back to give more opinions about Dtilts getting a rank ↑ & rank ↓, starting from the low to high, but before I do that I wanna briefly mention that the majority of Dtilts have a trip ratio, but only some of them will actually trip someone. An extremely rare example would be 's Dtilt in that yes it has a 0.3 ratio, but the ground-target-only kb° is a meteor, & the only time this will ever trip anything will be super heavy characters that crouch cancel knockback, or Shield Shulk with or without crouch canceling. So even if she can trip, it's not worth anything to help that particular case of utility. But speaking of trip ratio, lets add that factor into my reasonings with other characters:

's Dtilt I feel can warrant a rank ↑ to B or A tier:

• the move sends one nowhere
• has a 0.3 trip ratio inducing hard trip lag (most attack moves do iirc, but this still means a lot since you act so quickly)
• like a user before my post mentioned about it, Dtilt trip leads into a guaranteed Fsmash, but can also be guaranteed into PK Fire, turnaround SH Bair, or anything you desire. Big damage starters mainly
• cannot be challenged with a punish OoS in tight quarters (near a ledge on a platform or the stage edge)
• causes tumble fall with or without the trip chance which gives huge frame advantage (you act on frame 14 or frame 6 with another Dtilt, but the tested character being Sheik couldn't act for at least 25+ frames later)
• deals 4% sweetspotted for a frame 3 move that can act on frame 14 with anything. . .dang. The only setback it seems to be is range

's Dtilt I feel can warrant rank ↑ to B or A tier:

• the move has great horizontal range
• has a 0.4 trip ration inducing hard trip lag (most attack moves do iirc, but this means a great deal for DK)
• has arm intangibility from frame 1-9, making the startup of the move hard to beat out when properly spaced in Neutral
• the move deals 7% at best & 6% at worst, in which a trip effect while acting on frame 23 leads leads into a free dash grab into Cargo-naughty
• is active on frame 7-9, being active for 3 frames. Dang

-
Also, something to keep in mind about moves is also range. These Dtilts have great grounded range imo:
(Luma extension rivals these characters)

-
Some Dtilts also scoot the character forward some, they include characters like:
(Marth can scoot forward if you do something like spotdodge & then buffer Dtilt during the endlag to make him move forward a bit. Lucina however cannot do this for whatever reason(?))