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Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar should both be banned

SaveMeJebus

Smash Master
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You never linked me to the source like I asked. Okay so in order to get this grab you have to be:
-facing the left
-be on the same ground level as the person while there being 6 platforms to land on and not get grabbed
-can't get the grab while the opponent is hanging off stage
-can't get the grab while standing on any of the doughnut blocks
-doughnut blocks must be in the set position
-once the far left wall has vanished, the whole entire top portion of the stage becomes accessible so you can just go camp the bottom platforms to the far right

Yeah a lot of conditions must be met to get one grab. Especially since you can move left to right non stopand jump platform to platform til you reach the end of the stage and just drop down

:phone:
The only time he can't get the infinite is when he is on the boat and it doesn't matter since he has a wall infinite there. I think this might be new since I couldn't find anything about it on the guide in the DDD boards. what soarce were you asking for?
 

Arcansi

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The only point you've used this far is "overcentralization", which is not a bad point, but is not good enough to consider the STAGE (RC or Brinstar) to be banworthy.
Why not?

If my first 3 points are valid in 99% of matches (which they are), is the stage testing skills that we wish it to test to the same (or close to) extent as every other stage in the stagelist?

Also, imo, is mostly a problem with the CP system.
What's wrong with the CP system?

EDIT: Added Below

arc I have rebuted your points many times already
I chose those points specifically because they were un(or unsucessfully) rebuted.


99% of matches definitely are not mm not even close lmao
I'm going to assume mm = mirror match, which is not what I was saying. I was saying 99% of matches contain a meta.
 

Player-1

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Alright, first off a lot of characters can either just camp the right part of the boat or lighter characters can camp the left part because DDD can't CG characters like Marth and diddy down that really small slope on the left so the wall can't do **** if youre playing the stage right. According to you, it only works as the stage is moving to the right which is only one portion of the stage where it only moves to the right. I don't really care about this supposed infinite unless you can provide a valid source.

@arc actually they were successful and mm was a typo for MK. There is NO way that 99% of matched and RC contain MK and frankly you are a moron if you think so

:phone:
 

ぱみゅ

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Why not?

If my first 3 points are valid in 99% of matches (which they are), is the stage testing skills that we wish it to test to the same (or close to) extent as every other stage in the stagelist?
We do not have a book saying which skills we want to test, is all subjective.
For example, I'd like to se a game about players making their opponents get off the screen (or "losing stocks" or "hitting the blastzone") in order to get a winner; using terrain features, hazards and elements and moving through the whole layout should be allowed -just removing stuff that are used to avoid confrontation, can be abused over and over and/or can't be dealed with-.
But that's just my opinion and I wouldn't try to impose it to others (even though I am an actual TO).
Anyways, I'm not arguing on that, we'll get stuck on a world of philosophic waves and ways to percieve the game.... A pointless discussion...


What's wrong with the CP system?
You're saying that 99% of the matches on Rainbow Cruise involves MetaKnight because of pocket ones, wrecking results. You still asking what's wrong with it?
 

Arcansi

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We do not have a book saying which skills we want to test, is all subjective.
For example, I'd like to se a game about players making their opponents get off the screen (or "losing stocks" or "hitting the blastzone") in order to get a winner; using terrain features, hazards and elements and moving through the whole layout should be allowed -just removing stuff that are used to avoid confrontation, can be abused over and over and/or can't be dealed with-.
But that's just my opinion and I wouldn't try to impose it to others (even though I am an actual TO).
Anyways, I'm not arguing on that, we'll get stuck on a world of philosophic waves and ways to percieve the game.... A pointless discussion...
So basically, not in your opinion. Also, if that question is not to be asked, how do we judge if a stage should be banned or not aside from obvious things that impede normal play...Wait a second...



You're saying that 99% of the matches on Rainbow Cruise involves MetaKnight because of pocket ones, wrecking results. You still asking what's wrong with it?
I believe this is a problem with people, the community, and our current stagelist.

I find the CP system absolutely fine, to be quite honest.

EDIT: Fixed Quote
 

Atomic Yoshi

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I believe this is a problem with people, the community, and our current stagelist.
Why is it a problem with the people/community? No one wants to get screwed over by the stage. Can't really blame someone for switching to MK. It's a problem with the stagelist.
 

John12346

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First off, MK is still really freaking retardedly hard to beat, even without Brinstar and RC in the mix. Tournament results from the few sparse tournies with one or both illegal attest to this, because MK still manages to take the top spots in most if not all cases.

Secondly, we can't just go around banning stages because one character breaks them really hard. The stages themselves are perfectly viable for tournament play, and if there's a single character with an abnormally large win % on two or more of these such stages(I'm looking at Delfino and Frigate), then there's something wrong with that character, not the stages.

If Brinstar and RC were banned due to the stages themselves not being fit for competitive play, I'd be fine with that. But when we start banning stages because of Metaknight, or any other character for that matter, then that's the point where we're doing it wrong.
 

SAX

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Just ban brinstar and keep rainbow cruise.
If you ban brinstar, then everybody can just ban RC against mk when counter picking, and not have to worry about an "autowin" for the mk player.

Sounds simple to me. My two cents
 

Arcansi

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Just ban brinstar and keep rainbow cruise.
If you ban brinstar, then everybody can just ban RC against mk when counter picking, and not have to worry about an "autowin" for the mk player.

Sounds simple to me. My two cents
Pocket MK breaks the CP system this way.

First off, MK is still really freaking retardedly hard to beat, even without Brinstar and RC in the mix. Tournament results from the few sparse tournies with one or both illegal attest to this, because MK still manages to take the top spots in most if not all cases.

Secondly, we can't just go around banning stages because one character breaks them really hard. The stages themselves are perfectly viable for tournament play, and if there's a single character with an abnormally large win % on two or more of these such stages(I'm looking at Delfino and Frigate), then there's something wrong with that character, not the stages.

If Brinstar and RC were banned due to the stages themselves not being fit for competitive play, I'd be fine with that. But when we start banning stages because of Metaknight, or any other character for that matter, then that's the point where we're doing it wrong.
I know, I was arguing metaknight this whole time. I'm 99% sure from this thread alone i now have an argument I've seen noone beat yet that MK should get a free win on this stage, and it isn't based on player skill (unless you completely outplay him).
 

ぱみゅ

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Okay, I just facepalmed so hard that I can't believe it... and I don't even facepalm at all....
I almost do not want to answer anymore....

So basically, not in your opinion. Also, if that question is not to be asked, how do we judge if a stage should be banned or not aside from obvious things that impede normal play...Wait a second...
Question IS going to be asked and IS going to be answered in order to have coherence with all of the other stages on the list.
Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, I'll go further and say that even Norfair and Pictochat are perfectly fine because a confrontation is possible because nothing on htem can be abused.

Also, how can a stage impede "normal game" other than wall infinites, circle camping and similars?

I believe this is a problem with people, the community, and our current stagelist.

I find the CP system absolutely fine, to be quite honest.
Player A (Diddy) goes against Player B (Marth).
A wins, A bans Brinstar because he does not like it for his Diddy.
B decides to take him to Rainbow.
A switches to MK. B does not second other character, A wins again.

Problem is player A? no, he happened to use two characters.
Problem is player B? arguably, he could not use a proper character for that situation
Problem is Rainbow Cruise? no, it was a legit CP against Diddy.
Problem is the ability of players to change characters freely?
or the ability of players to change characters AFTER the stage that's supposed to counter the character they just lost against was announced?

Why is it a problem with the people/community? No one wants to get screwed over by the stage. Can't really blame someone for switching to MK. It's a problem with the stagelist.
that's why I blame the system, not the characters/stages/players

Because people are the reason MK isn't banned yet.
*facepalm*
Why ban MK? He's beatable if you take away his autowin stages and extend the timer.
*another facepalm*
The community has no intention of doing this, as this thread would tell us.
what is thios thread about, again?
 

Steam

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no one else goes to RC and Brinstar because they know their opponent will just go MK.

and the stages are perfectly fine. MK's retardedness on them is just what happens when you actually have a stage that benefits him rather than playing on his worst stages (neutrals) all the time.
 

Arcansi

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Okay, I just facepalmed so hard that I can't believe it... and I don't even facepalm at all....
I almost do not want to answer anymore....
You fail to understand how many times I have done so in the span of this thread.


Question IS going to be asked and IS going to be answered in order to have coherence with all of the other stages on the list.
Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, I'll go further and say that even Norfair and Pictochat are perfectly fine because a confrontation is possible because nothing on htem can be abused.
Wait, your telling me the two 'C' shaped caves that prevent approaches and the Boat that does too is not able to be abused?

Your going to need to explain this, as I have cited a good amount of video proof that it is not so within this thread.

Also, how can a stage impede "normal game" other than wall infinites, circle camping and similars?
Making the timer an effective 4:00-4:30 (This may fall under similars, however it is relevant to RC.)

Hazards, espicially ones that kill.

Minigames.

Player A (Diddy) goes against Player B (Marth).
A wins, A bans Brinstar because he does not like it for his Diddy.
B decides to take him to Rainbow.
A switches to MK. B does not second other character, A wins again.

Problem is player A? no, he happened to use two characters.
Problem is player B? arguably, he could not use a proper character for that situation
Problem is Rainbow Cruise? no, it was a legit CP against Diddy.
Problem is the ability of players to change characters freely?
or the ability of players to change characters AFTER the stage that's supposed to counter the character they just lost against was announced?
Problem feels like metaknight.

However I know this situation could likely be used with diff stages/characters (if it can't, see above, replacing feels like with is.) so I'm going to say that here marth should've cp'd a stage allowing him to do well, not his opponent to do bad.[/QUOTE]


what is thios thread about, again?
Currently? Metaknight.
 

Kantrip

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You fail to understand how many times I have done so in the span of this thread.




Wait, your telling me the two 'C' shaped caves that prevent approaches and the Boat that does too is not able to be abused?

Your going to need to explain this, as I have cited a good amount of video proof that it is not so within this thread.



Making the timer an effective 4:00-4:30 (This may fall under similars, however it is relevant to RC.)

Hazards, espicially ones that kill.

Minigames.



Problem feels like metaknight.

However I know this situation could likely be used with diff stages/characters (if it can't, see above, replacing feels like with is.) so I'm going to say that here marth should've cp'd a stage allowing him to do well, not his opponent to do bad.




Currently? Metaknight.
Replace Marth with Game and Watch and the problem doesn't change. Mr. Game and Watch counterpicks Rainbow Cruise, as it is a stage that is good for him and bad for his opponent's Diddy Kong. The opponent then switches to MK and the Game and Watch is boned.

I'm agreeing with kyokoro_pamuyo here; why do we choose characters after counterpicking the stage again?
 

Kantrip

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So the solution is to remove all of his good stages so as to try to take away the incentive players have to switch to him?

Any character that likes the air but isn't MK is at risk in the CP system, even if they lost the previous round and it's their counterpick. Pick a stage that's good for you, the opponent can switch to MK. You now have a disadvantage on your own CP. Pick a stage that's bad (comparitively) for MK, and you put yourself at a disadvantage because the stage is bad for you too. Ground-based characters don't have this problem. You don't see top players whipping out their pocket Diddies and Snakes when a Lucas tries to CP Final Destination.
 

Kantrip

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Certainly that appears to be the favourable outcome right now.

As there is nothing inherently broken about Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar, and there is nothing else being abused about the counterpick system, it becomes apparent where the problem lies.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Exactly.

So, let's see... Meta Knight breaks two otherwise perfectly viable stages, wins 50%~ of tournament money, has no disadvantageous match-ups or stages and requires a specific rule to remain legal (ledge-grab limit).

Isn't it funny how all the "Competitive Brawl Discussion" threads have been turning into Meta Knight discussion recently... Maybe there is a reason for that...? Naaaaaaah, just ignore it mods. It's probably nothing, no one wants to discuss MK's legality.
 
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Unlike you'd be thinking I'd say--the acid being slightly random, the overcentralizing of MK, etc.--I'm going to say something much simpler.

On the stage, the tiny slopes create huge problems with shielding. Moves that should never shield poke on full shields will frequently happen, and despite all precautions you will often find yourself slipping off platforms and the ground itself and being hit by moves that were 100% predicted and avoidable on any standard terrain. I'm assuming that this is unique to the stage because of flaws in its design.
All right, let's get something straight here. I'm finding it harder and harder to defend Brinstar. But this? This is not the reason. Here's the issue with what you're saying: just because it's different than most "normal" terrain doesn't mean it's not consistent. It just means you have to learn to deal with different things differently. Tl;dr: get better.

This in my opinion makes it ban worthy because it defies the game's basic logic in shielding at times. You see something coming, react, but still get punished, and it's very inconsistent. I'm not just talking about the little spongy area--it's all over the stage.
When you see something coming, react, and still get punished, could it be that you're choosing the wrong option? Maybe angling your shield wrong? I have never had this happen to me, so I don't quite understand what you mean. But I highly, highly doubt that that happened.

RC should be banned because it is a moving stage like 2/3 of the time. Moving stages mess with players ability to space properly.
This complaint falls under the classic "GET BETTER NOOB" ****. Seriously, if you can't deal with such simple movement by changing up your game somewhat, you suck.

DDD can also use this stage movement to Infinite some characters that he normally can't infinite.
So?

Give me 3 good reasons RC should be legal
We shouldn't have to. We have to show that RC is broken, not the other way around.

It's not that players can't handle the movement. It's the fact that they have to learn how to space correctly by learning how this stage affects their character's aerial mobility.
I think that this is asking too much from a stage considering the fact that this is the only stage that knowledge will be used for.
...Really? The old "I'm too lazy to learn this niche skill so we should remove the things that require this skill" argument? That's, well, lazy. You learn to deal with it. You become a better player.

There is nothing wrong about learning about your character. But learning how to space on a stage like RC is like learning ho to Chain grab characters under the effects of a super mushroom. Useless knowledge on a banned stage (or a stage that should be banned)
Yes, and if we played with super mushrooms, we'd require that knowledge. Just like in ISP ganons should damn well know their item jablock infinites, and why in some environments you should know how to deal with all of Warioware's hazards. However, there's already a different, very good reason why we've banned super mushrooms (and other items, and Warioware). You can never use the "I don't want to have to know this" excuse to ban things.
 

Player-1

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Unity ruleset already allows ddd's standing infinite which works on every stage, don't know what's wrong with an infinite which might not even exist that works when 50 other conditions are met

:phone:
 

Atomic Yoshi

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It seems as all the attention is on RC. Brinstar, however, forces you into bad positions. If you're a ground based character on Brinstar, you're screwed.
 

SaveMeJebus

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Unity ruleset already allows ddd's standing infinite which works on every stage, don't know what's wrong with an infinite which might not even exist that works when 50 other conditions are met

:phone:
Because unlike the regular standing infinite which only works on five characters, this one works on sixteen.

Snake
Wario
DK
R.O.B.
Wolf
DDD
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Mario
Ike
Bowser
Samus
Link
Luigi
Charizard
Ivysaur
 

Player-1

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DDD can buffered pivot grab infinite 5 additional characters so only 6 characters in total would be affected by it specifically on RC, and you still have not linked me to any valid source of information about this infinite, nor have you responded to any of the other points I have made.
 

SaveMeJebus

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DDD can buffered pivot grab infinite 5 additional characters so only 6 characters in total would be affected by it specifically on RC, and you still have not linked me to any valid source of information about this infinite, nor have you responded to any of the other points I have made.
It's new so there is no information on it. It is also not that hard to do especially if the DDD has the lead.

@ BPC, If you think that way, then you are stupid. That is why you have top players who win tournaments by knowing how to play the game and players like you who win single matches, but never sets.

@T-block, DDD's infinite on characters when he is facing left on the moving parts of RC.
 

Player-1

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I think it would be the general consensus of 90% of the people that you testing anything out isn't a very reliable source.
 

Player-1

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Alright so if it works then this only works on 6 additional characters that already couldn't be infinited before, not to mention all the set conditions that must be met to get the grab, if you are getting the infinite while the opponent is trying to avoid it then you deserve to get it whether it be you made some amazing read in the right spot or your opponent was dumb enough to fall for it
 

SaveMeJebus

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Alright so if it works then this only works on 6 additional characters that already couldn't be infinited before, not to mention all the set conditions that must be met to get the grab, if you are getting the infinite while the opponent is trying to avoid it then you deserve to get it whether it be you made some amazing read in the right spot or your opponent was dumb enough to fall for it
In that case, Corneria should be legalized because it works in exactly the same way.
 

T-block

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P-1, can you keep your signature out of your shorter posts please? x.x

All right, so fill me in. It only works on the side-scrolling portion of RC, right? And it's just a buffered d-throw that allows a standing regrab on 16 characters? If that's the case, I don't see why this is a huge deal. Any character who can be chain grabbed by Dedede has to be extremely wary of his grab on that top part anyways, and the platform configuration allows makes avoiding the grab pretty easy.

Corneria is not just banned for the wall.
 

SaveMeJebus

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P-1, can you keep your signature out of your shorter posts please? x.x

All right, so fill me in. It only works on the side-scrolling portion of RC, right? And it's just a buffered d-throw that allows a standing regrab on 16 characters? If that's the case, I don't see why this is a huge deal. Any character who can be chain grabbed by Dedede has to be extremely wary of his grab on that top part anyways, and the platform configuration allows makes avoiding the grab pretty easy.

Corneria is not just banned for the wall.
The characters can also be infinited on the platforms.

I can't think of another reason why Corneria would be banned.
 

Player-1

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then you can drop through the platform jebus...do you realize how hard it is to get a grab on a platform and not get punished for it? Getting on a platform as D3 is probably one of the worst things to do.

Jebus that is the most ******** logic saying Corneria is legal is dumb, for one that wall is static. and like tblock said many other reasons.

edit: and tblock IDK how to keep the sig out
 
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