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Rain Results! (1/27)

Overswarm

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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Messages
21,181
Shadow the Past said:
I wouldn't say it's really fair to compare that match to the P1 vs Ally match (I know you weren't in your post, but it's what we're all referencing for the most part.)

In your match, you were pretty much supposed to win the match (from my standpoint of not knowing who the Gdubs was.) LGL didn't affect the end outcome of the match, because either way you were meant to win. If there was or wasn't a LGL in that tournament, you would have won that match either way. Whereas in Ally vs P1, if there was a LGL, Ally would've won, but since there wasn't, P1 won.
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Looking at the tournament results, it seems that P1 didn't win.


Here's the disconnect. You say "you were supposed to win, LGL didn't matter" as if the opponent could use ledge play all day and I could easily beat them. Then you say that in higher skill levels the person on the ledge would be able to somehow win when he shouldn't.

That has never happened because it doesn't make any sense.

Meta Knight causes issues, yeah. But even he has to be theoretically perfect and is never so in practice.

Other characters? They don't do anything to merit an LGL. People talk about broken DK planking against Olimar and forget that people figured out one week later how to get past it. Diddy's planking isn't broken at all and is actually really ****ing easy to beat.

This isn't a fair comparison because it wasn't against a high ranking Diddy and I was Meta Knight, but I just grabbed the ledge and when he started his up+b I just waited and then naired him out of it. He died, because he's diddy and that's what ****ing happens.

If you're snake you can throw grenades directly at him.

There are so many ways to pressure someone playing around the ledge and they almost always result in death for the person on the ledge. The only exceptions are those with stupid good recoveries like ROB and Meta Knight and I've still died more times than I can count on the ledge as ROB.

Hell, playing against P1 myself on the ledge he just shot peanuts at me. I was unable to effectively laser without leaving the peanut arc radius (which exposes me) and took random bits of % at times, putting it ultimately in his favor unless I hit with my projectiles.


In the past I actually offered a $100 bounty while MK was legal to someone who claimed they could win by planking every match with MK and the guy just said "I wouldn't do that, planking is gay". He couldn't do it and he knows he couldn't do it. YOU know you can't do it.

Go ahead, pick someone who you think can plank. Win a tournament. If you're worried about top players beating you it's because they still can.

This has been going on for YEARS and not one person EVER has proven that planking even results in above average placement. Planking or no planking, LGL or no LGL, people place in the exact same placement range. The only exceptions are that without an LGL and with an LGL certain matchups get harder or easier, which slighlty influences the results of Falco and ICs and Olimar who LOVE arbitrary rules that keep you on the stage.

Falco is a garbage character who can't really do much around the ledge and should be ledge camped as often as possible.

ICs and Olimar can still deal with it easily.

I just don't get it. Who doesn't love money? You could be the guy that

A) beat an entire tournament with one strategy
B) proved Overswarm wrong
C) have video evidence that an LGL is required
D) put an end to it once and for all
E) win a bunch of money

but instead people just have random anecdotes because an LGL worked or almost worked in one match.
 
Doctor X

Doctor X

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sneakytako said:
I thought it was standard practice for Gunpunch to fill results threads with useless banter.
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I propose a motion to cease this as standard practice. Unless useless banter involves catching flies with vinegar or someone or something being smelly. That stuff is fine.
 
Shadow the Past

Shadow the Past

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Messages
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Overswarm said:
Looking at the tournament results, it seems that P1 didn't win.
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He won the set, when in reality he shouldn't have. (Again not dissing P1.) I never said he won the tournament, but he did win a set, which threw Ally into losers.


Overswarm said:
Here's the disconnect. You say "you were supposed to win, LGL didn't matter" as if the opponent could use ledge play all day and I could easily beat them. Then you say that in higher skill levels the person on the ledge would be able to somehow win when he shouldn't.

That has never happened because it doesn't make any sense.
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I'm not saying had he used the ledge all day you still would've won. I'm saying had the LGL not been in place, he could/would have kept camping there and might've taken the game, had you not been able to take him out. (I'm assuming it was a normal kill and not something crazy like running off the stage, backairing and spiking him.)

At higher levels of play, when sets are so close, it becomes unfair when one person can resort to a cheap tactic like this in order to win a set, while the other player can barely do anything to combat it without risking losing a stock themselves due to bad offstage game.

Overswarm said:
Meta Knight causes issues, yeah. But even he has to be theoretically perfect and is never so in practice.
Click to expand...
While this is true, the player on stage also has to be theoretically perfect in their punish against the planking Meta Knight. If they aren't, Meta Knight can do whatever he wants after they mess up (unless its an MK ditto or something.)

Overswarm said:
Other characters? They don't do anything to merit an LGL. People talk about broken DK planking against Olimar and forget that people figured out one week later how to get past it. Diddy's planking isn't broken at all and is actually really ****ing easy to beat.

This isn't a fair comparison because it wasn't against a high ranking Diddy and I was Meta Knight, but I just grabbed the ledge and when he started his up+b I just waited and then naired him out of it. He died, because he's diddy and that's what ****ing happens.

If you're snake you can throw grenades directly at him.
Click to expand...
Again, I haven't watched the set and don't play Snake, but I'm assuming Ally tried this and assuming it didn't work. And what if Ally wasn't playing Snake, or if it was a different player entirely? What if it was against an Ice Climbers, or a Falco maybe? What options do they have? If Falco loses his jump, he's basically dead, and Ice Climbers are basically guaranteed to lose Nana in the process.

Overswarm said:
There are so many ways to pressure someone playing around the ledge and they almost always result in death for the person on the ledge. The only exceptions are those with stupid good recoveries like ROB and Meta Knight and I've still died more times than I can count on the ledge as ROB.

Hell, playing against P1 myself on the ledge he just shot peanuts at me. I was unable to effectively laser without leaving the peanut arc radius (which exposes me) and took random bits of % at times, putting it ultimately in his favor unless I hit with my projectiles.


In the past I actually offered a $100 bounty while MK was legal to someone who claimed they could win by planking every match with MK and the guy just said "I wouldn't do that, planking is gay". He couldn't do it and he knows he couldn't do it. YOU know you can't do it.

Go ahead, pick someone who you think can plank. Win a tournament. If you're worried about top players beating you it's because they still can.

This has been going on for YEARS and not one person EVER has proven that planking even results in above average placement. Planking or no planking, LGL or no LGL, people place in the exact same placement range. The only exceptions are that without an LGL and with an LGL certain matchups get harder or easier, which slighlty influences the results of Falco and ICs and Olimar who LOVE arbitrary rules that keep you on the stage.

Falco is a garbage character who can't really do much around the ledge and should be ledge camped as often as possible.

ICs and Olimar can still deal with it easily.

I just don't get it. Who doesn't love money? You could be the guy that

A) beat an entire tournament with one strategy
B) proved Overswarm wrong
C) have video evidence that an LGL is required
D) put an end to it once and for all
E) win a bunch of money

but instead people just have random anecdotes because an LGL worked or almost worked in one match.
Click to expand...
LGL doesn't win tournaments, it wins games. Winning one game could mean winning one set. Winning one set could mean winning the tournament. It's always about the situation

If there's a situation where someone sees mid-game they can win an individual game by planking, they're going to go for it. It's not something you try and do from the get-go.
 
TheKiest

TheKiest

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This has been going on for YEARS and not one person EVER has proven that planking even results in above average placement. Planking or no planking, LGL or no LGL, people place in the exact same placement range. The only exceptions are that without an LGL and with an LGL certain matchups get harder or easier, which slighlty influences the results of Falco and ICs and Olimar who LOVE arbitrary rules that keep you on the stage.
Click to expand...
Sadly, I'm not sure if there's been a fair chance for anyone to attempt this at a tourne (since most have LGL rules).

@Chi: I'm 50/50 on the MK issue, as a player I don't think he should be banned. As a T.O., he should be. Still proves your point.

@Ori: The part I forgot to mention is that Experimenting in a house tournament doesn't mean anything. One needs the input of different scenes in order to see what is going on.
 
Overswarm

Overswarm

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Messages
21,181
Shadow the Past said:
At higher levels of play, when sets are so close, it becomes unfair when one person can resort to a cheap tactic like this in order to win a set, while the other player can barely do anything to combat it without risking losing a stock themselves due to bad offstage game.
Click to expand...
OF COURSE IT IS UNFAIR

Just like how it's unfair that DK can be chaingrabbed by Dedede but Olimar cannot. Just like how Fox can waveshine to u-smash Peach in Melee but can't do the same to Falco.

Just like how it's unfair to tell a ledge-based character like ROB that he has to go onto the stage where Falco excels simply because it'd be unfair to Falco.

Unfairness is the name of the game. The ruleset isn't meant to make things "fair".

You're trading one unfairness for another but the important thing is that a character having bad ledge play is a natural weakness. Falco is bad off stage, MK isn't. Why make rules to make MK fight where Falco is good? Why not do the opposite and make all edgeguards be off stage to make it fair to off stage characters?

This same kind of reasoning is the stuff scrubs use. I went to a tournament that literally told us that you were an ******* if you edgeguarded because it was unfair that Link couldn't make it back with his up+b if you edgeguarded him, so edgeguarding was banned.

You are on that level. There is no difference whatsoever except

1) edgeguarding has a precedent
2) you don't think edgeguarding is boring

That's it.

In Melee, M2K got **** for playing Marth and just shield grabbing Falcon's, d-throwing them, then killing them that way. Over and over. I believe he 4 stocked darkrain doing this. People complained because it was "cheap" and "boring" and "gay" and "lame" but what REALLy was going on was Mew2King was demonstrating that Captain Falcon is a horrible character that you shouldn't lose to. We just love Falcon, so it hurts more.


While this is true, the player on stage also has to be theoretically perfect in their punish against the planking Meta Knight. If they aren't, Meta Knight can do whatever he wants after they mess up (unless its an MK ditto or something.)
Click to expand...
I agree, but I also agree that MK should be banned. I also agree that if someone messes up they should be allowed to be punished.

If I charge a forward smash with Ike and miss, I should be punished. If I go off stage to hit somebody and miss, I should be punished. We reward excellence, not mediocrity.

Again, I haven't watched the set and don't play Snake, but I'm assuming Ally tried this and assuming it didn't work. And what if Ally wasn't playing Snake, or if it was a different player entirely? What if it was against an Ice Climbers, or a Falco maybe? What options do they have? If Falco loses his jump, he's basically dead, and Ice Climbers are basically guaranteed to lose Nana in the process.
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ICs have some impressive ways to get people off the ledge that don't involve losing nana if you know what you're doing, but I won't get into it.

Here's the thing:

There is no "what if". If you're playing falco and someone grabs the ledge and you lose, you lose. Both players have 8 minutes to win by whatever means necessary. Falco is a ****ty, ****ty character. The only reason he's even halfway viable is because people try to ban any stage that isn't flat/plat (falco preferred) and try to ban off stage ledge play (falco prefers the stage, despite what he says).

Falco is bad.

No one says "Well what if I pick jigglypuff" in normal circumstances. We don't give extra stocks to low tiers.

Sink or swim. Play a better character.


LGL doesn't win tournaments, it wins games. Winning one game could mean winning one set. Winning one set could mean winning the tournament. It's always about the situation

If there's a situation where someone sees mid-game they can win an individual game by planking, they're going to go for it. It's not something you try and do from the get-go.
Click to expand...
And why shouldn't they do that?

Because it's "too good"? Prove it. You're complaining about a set where player A was planking and PLAYER B WON.

Think of how crazy that is.

Because "it's boring"? You're a scrub, but if you want a shot clock to make Brawl more interesting then go for it. Just own up to it and say that it makes games more interesting and you're willing to accept the balance issues that come with this.
 
Shadow the Past

Shadow the Past

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Overswarm said:
OF COURSE IT IS UNFAIR

Just like how it's unfair that DK can be chaingrabbed by Dedede but Olimar cannot. Just like how Fox can waveshine to u-smash Peach in Melee but can't do the same to Falco.

Just like how it's unfair to tell a ledge-based character like ROB that he has to go onto the stage where Falco excels simply because it'd be unfair to Falco.

Unfairness is the name of the game. The ruleset isn't meant to make things "fair".

You're trading one unfairness for another but the important thing is that a character having bad ledge play is a natural weakness. Falco is bad off stage, MK isn't. Why make rules to make MK fight where Falco is good? Why not do the opposite and make all edgeguards be off stage to make it fair to off stage characters?

This same kind of reasoning is the stuff scrubs use. I went to a tournament that literally told us that you were an ******* if you edgeguarded because it was unfair that Link couldn't make it back with his up+b if you edgeguarded him, so edgeguarding was banned.

You are on that level. There is no difference whatsoever except

1) edgeguarding has a precedent
2) you don't think edgeguarding is boring

That's it.

In Melee, M2K got **** for playing Marth and just shield grabbing Falcon's, d-throwing them, then killing them that way. Over and over. I believe he 4 stocked darkrain doing this. People complained because it was "cheap" and "boring" and "gay" and "lame" but what REALLy was going on was Mew2King was demonstrating that Captain Falcon is a horrible character that you shouldn't lose to. We just love Falcon, so it hurts more.
Click to expand...
The difference between this and a LGL is that the LGL only applies when the game goes to time. If you can camp on the ledge and get 147 ledgegrabs in 8 minutes as Ganondorf and still take 3 stocks off of D3, more power to you.

Saying there shouldn't be a LGL is like saying there shouldn't be a time limit either, that's the simplest way I can put it.


Overswarm said:
Sink or swim. Play a better character.
Click to expand...
This is a cop out rebuttal. Why doesn't everyone just play MK then?

Overswarm said:
And why shouldn't they do that?

Because it's "too good"? Prove it. You're complaining about a set where player A was planking and PLAYER B WON.

Think of how crazy that is.

Because "it's boring"? You're a scrub, but if you want a shot clock to make Brawl more interesting then go for it. Just own up to it and say that it makes games more interesting and you're willing to accept the balance issues that come with this.
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No, I'm complaining about a set where player A was planking and player A won, I.e. P1 vs Ally.

And yes I'm a scrub, but that doesn't mean a good majority of the Brawl community also shares my viewpoint that LGL belongs in competitive play.
 
clowsui

clowsui

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Ironically enough OS agrees w you about the time limit thing. He made a shot clock analogy somewhere in this thread

:phone:
 
clowsui

clowsui

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the issue at hand is to convince you that an LGL is strictly an anti-competitive measure. It's no better than any other preference regarding the game. To the extent that the community has accepted this preference and will only compete with this preference in place, you could seem such a community competitive but only for that particular version of super smash bros brawl.

Calling someone bad or anti competitive because they believe in a no LGL metagame should, in other words, seem incredibly ironic as competition should be based around demonstrably broken tactics. If we were to make a cancer analogy, planking is seen and acted against using chemo when we should actually just be keeping an eye on it for now as the cells might even be benign
:phone:
 
What's The Point

What's The Point

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No his shot clock analogy is about including a rule that goes against against optimal play in favor of making the game more interesting.

It's the one thing he's actually right about. A LGL should be included because the vast majority of people don't like planking. It's only a competitive thing because as a whole we've decided we don't want to compete with planking.
 
Shadow the Past

Shadow the Past

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clowsui said:
Calling someone bad or anti competitive because they believe in a no LGL metagame should, in other words, seem incredibly ironic as competition should be based around demonstrably broken tactics. If we were to make a cancer analogy, planking is seen and acted against using chemo when we should actually just be keeping an eye on it for now as the cells might even be benign
:phone:
Click to expand...
If this were the case, it could be argued that MK infinite dimensional cape should be in competitive as well, since it's also just a broken tactic.
 
clowsui

clowsui

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oh, i must have misinterpreted past's point then lol

@past MK infinite dimensional cape ban wasn't popular w everyone you know. but after we found out that some people can do it for 2+ minutes no problem (6 minutes w a wiimote + chuk) we banned it for stalling. japan allows extended dimensional cape iircw

also i believe you completely misconstrued what i said. for a lot of people (overswarm being one of them), he thinks that until planking wins a tournament or does anything beyond winning a game/making people mad, no LGL should be the standard. the burden of proof, according to OS, isn't on himself because after a game has a basic framework of competitive standards built around it, things should be reduced as they show themselves to be broken or "degenerate" (in quotes because this word is extremely tricky and not meant in its usually subjective sense)
 
Prince_Abu

Prince_Abu

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stfu brawl nubsacks ur game is *** anyway

more importantly there werent enough melee TVs at this plz work on that for next time
 
sneakytako

sneakytako

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Shadow the Past said:
Saying there shouldn't be a LGL is like saying there shouldn't be a time limit either, that's the simplest way I can put it.
Click to expand...
That's the ****ing problem, as we've tried to explain time and time again. The problem lies within the fact that planking wins you the game via timeout when you have a lead, not in the actual practice itself. The fact that you have a problem with planking doesn't give you a right to mess with the ledge game of everyone else. AND IT DOESN'T EVEN SOLVE THE PROBLEM, people can just plank later/slower to get around LGL.

We should just make a rule to mod all controllers to have a toward input at all times ffs.
 
clowsui

clowsui

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me and p-1 are the best team

shoutouts to aipom

we lost because we didn't plank enough

sorry p-1 i gotta abuse no lgl next time, that way we can get all the monies!!!!
 
Kel

Kel

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What's The Point said:
It's the one thing he's actually right about. A LGL should be included because the vast majority of people don't like planking. It's only a competitive thing because as a whole we've decided we don't want to compete with planking.
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You are the only pro-LGL person I have ever heard of making this distinction. I don't care what TOs do with their tournaments, but they all try to say that planking is broken/ whatnot when really it all boils down to the fact that no one wants to deal with it.
 
blacktwins13

blacktwins13

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NNID
Blacktwins13
infiniteV115 said:
Guys guys guys
Can't we all just agree that Snake is broken and he needs to be banned
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You just Mad Cuz you got 6-0'd :smirk:

How V115 Feels about this quote :smirk:
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