Rain Results! (1/27)

[Player-1]

lol juushichi, you weren't in the brawl tournament.


ggs on RC too


happy?!?!

 

[Carls493]

I, for one, enjoyed the talk I had with P-1 about consoles & their recognition after the end of the tourney.

But besides that, I didn't get to do much else with him during the venue.

 

[Apasher]

5: LOE1 ($15.00)-

Best shoutout in this entire thread.

 

[SoulPech]

SSS: Stainless Steel Salt

 

[Overswarm]

No brawl playing means no os shutouts.

Still confused at the cognitive dissonance going on in here.

People complain about lgl being broken, guy who uses it is a top player and gets 3rd to 2 different characters. How deliberately obtuse so you have to be to not see this happen over and over again and not realize it is just another strategy to get past that is easi ly beaten with proposer preparation?

No one, I repeat, NO ONE has ever won a tournament via planking. Ever. The guy who it is NAMED after mained MK and couldn't do it.

You do not like it. It is boring. I understand. But own up to being scrubs instead of hiding behind perceived imbalance. The lgl hasn't been a staple for long enough to see it is a non issue. You have anecdotes of boring matches that were last stock panic feats of ledge camping in a hope to win, with as many resulting in failure as success and NONE of them being stories for an entire tournament.

You cannot win by getting the lead and camping the ledge. Try it. You will fail, just as everyone else who talks big about the lgl has.

Just say its preference and save yourself the embarrassment.

 

[mars16]

Das a lot of salt....

 

[LOE1]

i actually took the time to learn the bowser mu tho :|

 

[AllyKnight]

OH wants MK banned, allows no lgl. Scrubbiest region anyway. Only some OH are cool enough.

 

[kismet2]

Doesn't work

how so? it's a mixup whether or not diddy stays on the ledge. you can stop it short if diddy gets up or you can just drop it right above the ledge so when he charges it, it will fall on him. it's not always going to work on the first try against a smart player lol but snake can set up so much if diddy wants to stay on the ledge. setting a down smash in front of the ledge before you nikita is one way of doing it..

 

[Doctor X]

I just want to point out something guys.

I've not been active in the smash community in a long time. Last time I gave half a ****, the community was constantly arguing over LGL's and MK bans. Now, something like 4 or 5 years later, I come into this thread and I see people still arguing over LGL's and MK bans.

I do not think the community is going to make any real progress on these subjects. Ever. If you can't get it done in 4 years, guys, I think it's time to give up. Really. If you can't reach a compromise, then maybe you should just shut up and be happy that whatever region you play in still sees things the way you do. You are not going to convince anybody else no matter how hard you try. They do not want to be convinced and will never listen to anything you have to say.

To be honest, so much of this could be solved by simply playing a more well-designed game, but, you know... I've been saying that for 4 years, too, and somehow Brawl is still considered a main event at these things. I'll just shut up and be happy that Melee tournaments still exist and that Project M tournaments will be existing at all...

 

[Dekillsage]

how so? it's a mixup whether or not diddy stays on the ledge. you can stop it short if diddy gets up or you can just drop it right above the ledge so when he charges it, it will fall on him. it's not always going to work on the first try against a smart player lol but snake can set up so much if diddy wants to stay on the ledge. setting a down smash in front of the ledge before you nikita is one way of doing it..

You set up a dsmash and diddy fairs you, or side b's you.
If you drop it short when diddy gets up he can just go back off and then you accomplished nothing. I'm also sure that diddy kong can just up b and the nikita wont affect him at all.(no brawl can't double check).
If you want diddy kong to get off the ledge in a no lgl ruleset then walk to the other side of the stage and let him back on lol.

 

[SoulPech]

I just want to point out something guys.

I've not been active in the smash community in a long time. Last time I gave half a ****, the community was constantly arguing over LGL's and MK bans. Now, something like 4 or 5 years later, I come into this thread and I see people still arguing over LGL's and MK bans.

I do not think the community is going to make any real progress on these subjects. Ever. If you can't get it done in 4 years, guys, I think it's time to give up. Really. If you can't reach a compromise, then maybe you should just shut up and be happy that whatever region you play in still sees things the way you do. You are not going to convince anybody else no matter how hard you try. They do not want to be convinced and will never listen to anything you have to say.

To be honest, so much of this could be solved by simply playing a more well-designed game, but, you know... I've been saying that for 4 years, too, and somehow Brawl is still considered a main event at these things. I'll just shut up and be happy that Melee tournaments still exist and that Project M tournaments will be existing at all...

Speaking of melee, I wanted to apologize for the scarce of TVs and the lack of Melee gameplay on my end there. Also, Multiple ppl in multiple events did make it hard for everything and I feel like you guys didn't get any love :/. I want to thank you guys for coming out and does mean alot to me and the Columbus community. At the next RAIN, we'll make vast improvements!

 

[clowsui]

OH wants MK banned, allows no lgl. Scrubbiest region anyway. Only some OH are cool enough.

OK I'm not targeting you Elliot but this is by far and wide the biggest misconception spread about the Ohio community, and it probably has a lot to do with the fact that both our recent majors have been MK banned, along w RAIN 1 (nevermind teh fact that RAIN 2 is gonna be MK legal).

I made Vengeance MK banned because he told me that there was some nationalized MK ban project he needed my help with and I took a risk on that -_-

I made Retribution MK banned because i thought it could attract some attendance as a novelty thing. I also wanted to attract the Atl South, not knowing that it didn't make too much of a difference.

As for the existing OH community itself:

Kel - doesn't care. Prefers MK ban but likes seeing people enough to where he doesn't care really
Tako - MK ban, but is starting to lose interest in smash anyways
Overswarm (if you'd like to count him) - MK banned
Luminoth - MK legal
clowsui - I'm starting to prefer MK legal though I think both formats are legit
Kassandra - MK legal
Soulpech - no preference
Kiest - MK banned though he'll host both
Carls - MK legal
MX - MK legal
EddieG - MK legal
Beegs - MK legal
Lokii - MK banned
Denzi - doesn't care
Avion, Blimp etc - doesn't care IIRC
Suyon - doesn't care
Fizzle - plays Melee now wadup
Blue Rogue + Jiffy - MK legal iirc
DJ Iskaskribble (he's returning) - MK legal
Rikku - doesn't play enough for me to know! xP
Links - doesn't care
Today (unsure if she's rejoining) - doesn't care but last time I checked MK banned
Juushichi - MK banned(?, confirm)
All of my local players - they don't mind either format, they just want experience. This includes Silver, Squires, Commander Greg, christupboi, and one or two more involved in the Smash ranbats I held
Sorasin (lol?) - doesn't care, has lost a lot of interest
Darklouis + the Toledo crew - MK legal
Portsmouth kids - they just want experience

The sum total of OH doesn't really have a preference either way. It's just that the tournaments hosted give this impression.

Fortunately, Justice/Armageddon (probably gonna change the name to Justice soon) will be amazing, MK legal, and will show everyone exactly where we stand.

 

[SoulPech]

i actually don't care if it's banned or not Chi. Just saying.

 

[clowsui]

only further goes to prove my point lmao

 

[sneakytako]

No brawl playing means no os shutouts.

Still confused at the cognitive dissonance going on in here.

People complain about lgl being broken, guy who uses it is a top player and gets 3rd to 2 different characters. How deliberately obtuse so you have to be to not see this happen over and over again and not realize it is just another strategy to get past that is easi ly beaten with proposer preparation?

No one, I repeat, NO ONE has ever won a tournament via planking. Ever. The guy who it is NAMED after mained MK and couldn't do it.

You do not like it. It is boring. I understand. But own up to being scrubs instead of hiding behind perceived imbalance. The lgl hasn't been a staple for long enough to see it is a non issue. You have anecdotes of boring matches that were last stock panic feats of ledge camping in a hope to win, with as many resulting in failure as success and NONE of them being stories for an entire tournament.

You cannot win by getting the lead and camping the ledge. Try it. You will fail, just as everyone else who talks big about the lgl has.

Just say its preference and save yourself the embarrassment.

You catch a lot more flies with honey then you're ever gonna catch with vinegar.

I'll give it a shot to explain why LGL is terrible.

In short there are three main reasons:

1.) It doesn't solve the issue.

The crux of the problem stems from the fact that characters like MK can stall until the time runs out and win the game with a percent advantage. But limiting the number of ledge grabs doesn't solve the problem. Why? Because A.) Characters can slow down their ledge grabs to still stall for the majority of the game and B.) Characters can stall without using the ledge. A perfect example of B would be Apex 2013, 9B vs Anti. (Refer to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwv06J4Sqog) I could see the arguement that Anti is playing keep away with 9B for the first minute and thirty seconds. But the remaining 6 and a half minutes were spent deliberately wasting time all over the stage. LGL can be circumvented and does not stop the deliberate wasting of time.

2.) It puts limits on characters that are not stalling.

This is the part I think most of you are not really seeing. And I can understand why; it seems blasphemous that anyone would need 35-50 ledge grabs in one game. But let me tell you from personal experience from playing a character that needs the ledge that in different MUs the ledge plays a way larger role then others. For example any one with a decent ledge game against D3 with a CG should never want to play in the middle of the stage unless you have a strong positional advantage; you should be working to limit the dmg you receive from CGs by playing near the ledge. Now if I sit on the ledge and shoot lasers most of the game, then move onto the stage for the kill, is that the same issue as MK using the ledge to stall for time? I would say for sure not; I am working toward adding percent while limiting thier advantage while MK is just wasting time. Also this strategy isn't even that good; it's high risk low reward. Any time I mess up I could end up eating a ton of percent or even getting gimped, but it's absolutely necessary to make getting back on the stage safer. And this happens in almost every game I play; ask Carls how I play when I'm playing on a stage you can shark and he has the percent lead.

3.) It creates a bigger problem with stalling.

What ends up happening with smart players after someone grabs the ledge too much with LGL on becomes a complete role revsersal. Instead of the guy who's grabbing the ledge, the guy on the stage now has an incentive to time out. The other guy will either A.) Prevent the guy from coming back to the stage and/or B.) Run away. I've personally been in both roles and honestly it goes back to the same situation of one guy stalling out the other. Sometimes you can continually get knocked back from trying to find a way onto the stage and get 10+ edgegrabs in the matter of a minute. Other times you need the ledge to even the MU or alleiveate a percent lead. In these cases where ledge grabs are not used in stalling, LGL actually creates an incentive for the other guy to time out.

TL:DR - The best analgoy for LGL is Affirmative Action. I can understand how Jim Crow was terrible but AA is not the answer. Don't think because you see a problem the proposed solution is as perfect as it seems. On a scale of overall effectiveness I would rank LGL a 2 out of 10.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

Tako, how would you feel about a punishing rule such as you can only re grab the same ledge x number of times before returning to the stage, failure to do so costs a stock?

 

[Juushichi]

I guess I'm primarily MK-banned, but at this point with my actual dedication in PM, Smash 4 and fighters that I kinda like, I honestly don't give a ****. I've never gone as far as to boycott a MK-banned tournament, though I would not travel very far out for one. We've talked about it before, but I don't think whether MK is banned or legal really matters for the MW, but if people want it and I am a host/TO, I'll host it.

 

[sneakytako]

How would you enforce that rule? If it's past the 3(?) min mark for replays all you have is word of mouth to say that it happened/didn't happen. Are you gonna have a TO for each setup to judge each game live?

 

[MX778]

MK banned or not, I'll still play. I'm just gonna' go on record saying that MK in Brawl is a flaming homosexual.


Apologies to homosexuals worldwide ^^


:EDIT: And about the LGL, I agree and disagree. while it is very beneficial, it's still pretty lame to have to put someone through that. Some characters (like Pit or G&W for example ) who excel at that thing can't really be punished for planking in a smart way, though it could also be MU dependent. Granted, even with the no LGL rule, I doubt I'd be able to Deltacod my way through an entire tourney. I REALLY hope there's a LGL at the next one. I'd much rather get timed out by Meek's than somebody's pocket

 

[Overswarm]

Tako, how would you feel about a punishing rule such as you can only re grab the same ledge x number of times before returning to the stage, failure to do so costs a stock?

Requires a judge.

If you want to eliminate stalling, the best course of action is to eliminate the timer completely. Difficult for obvious reasons.

 

[Juushichi]

Alternatively, I also play a character that needs the ledge (and if Sheik was able to ledge stall like she could in Melee, oh boy would I be on that *****. Do you know how hard it is for her to get off?). Hell, MI has a meme of disliking Suyon because his Pit will stay on the ledge.

 

[sneakytako]

Also Meek the rule is going against point B. You're limiting the ability play on the ledge which includes reasons other than stalling. But I would be willing to consider the pros/cons of the rule if some of the wording could be amended after study.

Really the thing that kills me about LGL is that it's so ineffective, both the pros and cons of the rule are so minor that people are willing to overlook the loopholes of the rule.

 

[MX778]

Because unlike getting *****d out by the oh-so-mighty MK Planking/Sharking, I can actually do something about Sonic. You cannot do anything about MK's planking and such. The chance of you actually gimping a planking Meta Knight are close to (if not there already) trying to find a wild Ponyta with the Super Rod.

 

[sneakytako]

Then ban MK, and leave planking alone. Other chars need the ledge to deal with stuff.

The point I wanted to make was that MK planking isn't bad because it's close to unbeatable, it's the fact that it's close to unbeatable and it wins you the game if you timeout with a percent lead that's bad. The fix like OS said isn't to limit planking, but limit the fact timeouts are giving you a win with planking. Which is why I'm in favor of adding more time.

 

[Juushichi]

Nah, Tako.

You are being scrubby bad free lame whiner etc etc etc.

 

[Apasher]

The no LGL rule could also contradict the "no stalling" rule. Just saiyan.

 

[ANTi_]

Good **** beatin Ally P1.

 

[SoulPech]

The no LGL rule could also contradict the "no stalling" rule. Just saiyan.

o apasher. You are krillin me with what you said there...

Also, I agree with Juu

 

[infiniteV115]

I get the feeling that Anti didn't watch the stream and hasn't been reading this thread XD

 

[Shadow the Past]

You catch a lot more flies with honey then you're ever gonna catch with vinegar.

I'll give it a shot to explain why LGL is terrible.

In short there are three main reasons:

1.) It doesn't solve the issue.

The crux of the problem stems from the fact that characters like MK can stall until the time runs out and win the game with a percent advantage. But limiting the number of ledge grabs doesn't solve the problem. Why? Because A.) Characters can slow down their ledge grabs to still stall for the majority of the game and B.) Characters can stall without using the ledge. A perfect example of B would be Apex 2013, 9B vs Anti. (Refer to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwv06J4Sqog) I could see the arguement that Anti is playing keep away with 9B for the first minute and thirty seconds. But the remaining 6 and a half minutes were spent deliberately wasting time all over the stage. LGL can be circumvented and does not stop the deliberate wasting of time.

2.) It puts limits on characters that are not stalling.

This is the part I think most of you are not really seeing. And I can understand why; it seems blasphemous that anyone would need 35-50 ledge grabs in one game. But let me tell you from personal experience from playing a character that needs the ledge that in different MUs the ledge plays a way larger role then others. For example any one with a decent ledge game against D3 with a CG should never want to play in the middle of the stage unless you have a strong positional advantage; you should be working to limit the dmg you receive from CGs by playing near the ledge. Now if I sit on the ledge and shoot lasers most of the game, then move onto the stage for the kill, is that the same issue as MK using the ledge to stall for time? I would say for sure not; I am working toward adding percent while limiting thier advantage while MK is just wasting time. Also this strategy isn't even that good; it's high risk low reward. Any time I mess up I could end up eating a ton of percent or even getting gimped, but it's absolutely necessary to make getting back on the stage safer. And this happens in almost every game I play; ask Carls how I play when I'm playing on a stage you can shark and he has the percent lead.

3.) It creates a bigger problem with stalling.

What ends up happening with smart players after someone grabs the ledge too much with LGL on becomes a complete role revsersal. Instead of the guy who's grabbing the ledge, the guy on the stage now has an incentive to time out. The other guy will either A.) Prevent the guy from coming back to the stage and/or B.) Run away. I've personally been in both roles and honestly it goes back to the same situation of one guy stalling out the other. Sometimes you can continually get knocked back from trying to find a way onto the stage and get 10+ edgegrabs in the matter of a minute. Other times you need the ledge to even the MU or alleiveate a percent lead. In these cases where ledge grabs are not used in stalling, LGL actually creates an incentive for the other guy to time out.

TL:DR - The best analgoy for LGL is Affirmative Action. I can understand how Jim Crow was terrible but AA is not the answer. Don't think because you see a problem the proposed solution is as perfect as it seems. On a scale of overall effectiveness I would rank LGL a 2 out of 10.

1. It's true that characters can "stall" without the ledge, but the fact is that they're not on the ledge so the other player can actually potentially do something to damage them. I don't have time to rewatch that video (class in 10 minutes) but I'm assuming it's on Smashville/Battlefield and Anti is just running around the stage/camping the platform(s). The difference between this and planking is that if he messes up, he'll probably land and get grabbed, whereas if he was camping on the ledge, if he messed up, he can just jump 4 more times and do whatever b move he feels like because he's metaknight. Saying it doesn't solve the problem because people can still "stall" is a completely misconstrued statement, because keeping yourself out of the opponents range and keeping yourself out of all of your opponents options while throwing in a couple dozen invincibility frames are two different things, and because planking the ledge makes you borderline untouchable.

2. Characters who aren't trying to plank should never reach the LGL, ever. And comparing Robs planking game to Diddys/MK's is kind of laughable. You also need to keep in mind that the match has to go to time for the LGL to even affect the outcome of the game. If you can't kill your opponent 3 times in 8 minutes, you obviously weren't on stage battling them the entire time.

3. The solution to this is don't let it go to time. If the role reverses, let them rack up their own LGL and if they go over then the rule cancels out.

(Sorry last two responses were short, gotta go to class.)

 

[infiniteV115]

Guys guys guys
Can't we all just agree that Snake is broken and he needs to be banned

 

[Doctor X]

You catch a lot more flies with honey then you're ever gonna catch with vinegar.

Actually not true. Fruit flies love vinegar. If you leave an open cup of vinegar out where there are some, you'll catch every single one of those mofos. They lay eggs in rotten fruit and other vegetable matter, and vinegar-- being rotten vegetable matter-- produces exactly the scent that they like the most.

I think the moral of the story here is "Be a ****."

Also stop talking about LGL and just play Project M. Really.

 

[Shadow the Past]

Guys guys guys
Can't we all just agree that Snake is broken and he needs to be banned

Yes.

Hate that ****ing character.

 

[Juushichi]

Shadow, I counted with P-1 literally the day after the tournament. During the time where he was playing against Ally normally, he had 43 ledge grabs.

APEX LGL is 40.

As for the solution that the game should not go to time unless you weren't fighting on stage, literally you're right. Reasonably, you're crazy lol.

 

[Shadow the Past]

Shadow, I counted with P-1 literally the day after the tournament. During the time where he was playing against Ally normally, he had 43 ledge grabs.

APEX LGL is 40.

If he continued to fight normally, the match wouldn't go to time, and the LGL wouldn't have mattered at all. It likely would've resulted in him losing, but technically he should've lost that match (nothing against P1) which is why the LGL exists.

As for the solution that the game should not go to time unless you weren't fighting on stage, literally you're right. Reasonably, you're crazy lol

I mean obviously there's matches where there are ridiculous amounts of camping and it gets down to the last minute. The only time I've ever come close to a timeout was in a friendly where I was playing Toon Link, and I didn't even realise the time until it was under 2 minutes. In theory, playing on stage the entire game should mean the match shouldn't go to time. Obviously there are circumstances where it will go to time even if they're on stage, but again, LGL doesn't affect these matches. If you're constantly afraid you're going to time yourself out and go over the LGL every game, you're clearly not playing the game right.

The point is, the LGL isn't perfect, but it solves more problems than it creates. Saying other characters might be affected by the LGL negatively without intentionally planking seems like a much rarer case than MK/Diddy planking half the game away.

 

[Overswarm]

2. Characters who aren't trying to plank should never reach the LGL, ever. And comparing Robs planking game to Diddys/MK's is kind of laughable. You also need to keep in mind that the match has to go to time for the LGL to even affect the outcome of the game. If you can't kill your opponent 3 times in 8 minutes, you obviously weren't on stage battling them the entire time.

I myself have forced someone to grab the ledge past the edge grab limit, then killed them. Had I stalled the timer, I would have won because he was over the limit. I just kept grabbing them and forcing them to grab the ledge to recover.

He had made the mistake of playing G&W, a ledge character, who had used the ledge several times on his first stock naturally. I pushed the issue, which resulted in a win by default on time. Then I won again anyway.

 

[Shadow the Past]

I myself have forced someone to grab the ledge past the edge grab limit, then killed them. Had I stalled the timer, I would have won because he was over the limit. I just kept grabbing them and forcing them to grab the ledge to recover.

He had made the mistake of playing G&W, a ledge character, who had used the ledge several times on his first stock naturally. I pushed the issue, which resulted in a win by default on time. Then I won again anyway.

I wouldn't say it's really fair to compare that match to the P1 vs Ally match (I know you weren't in your post, but it's what we're all referencing for the most part.)

In your match, you were pretty much supposed to win the match (from my standpoint of not knowing who the Gdubs was.) LGL didn't affect the end outcome of the match, because either way you were meant to win. If there was or wasn't a LGL in that tournament, you would have won that match either way. Whereas in Ally vs P1, if there was a LGL, Ally would've won, but since there wasn't, P1 won.

 

[Juushichi]

we can reasonably assume that ally could/would/should/whatever have won, yes. P-1 did have the lead, though.

 

[Shadow the Past]

I haven't seen the set yet, so I don't know how close it was. I was basing this off of the presumed skill level of each player.