Data R.O.B. Matchup Thread

[Leisha]

Can someone please explain to me why diddy is listed as a worser matchup than villager in the OP? Seriously I'm really confused. Villager feels like 80-20 and diddy Kong isn't that bad to me.

 

[Jams.]

I'm fairly certain it's because the matchup ratios in the OP are averages of the matchup ratios users posted in the specific matchup threads, and some people thought Villager was around 45:55.

 

[Crome]

I'm fairly certain it's because the matchup ratios in the OP are averages of the matchup ratios users posted in the specific matchup threads, and some people thought Villager was around 45:55.

I don't think those people have fought a competent villager.

 

[GwJ]

The apparent contradiction in the ratings is due to a lack of sufficient input on the threads. I had to go through and make a reasonable average of what the implicit or explicit ratings were from user responses. If a matchup is lower than you think it should be, it means users in general thought it wasn't as bad as you did. If you want to change that, you'd need to justify it in the thread (or if you already did, make a follow up to your initial post driving your points home with evidence).

 

[Croissant]

Can somebody shed some light on the Yoshi matchup. Got stopped hard my last tourney against a Yoshi... and consistently online as well.

 

[GwJ]

We'll do the Yoshi matchup thread starting tomorrow.

 

[al-LAYN]

Okay, so I REALLY need your help against the Greninja MU. I cannot for the life of me get a hand of how to defeat a competent Greninja player. Greninja just have so many tools that make approaching as ROB a pain. His Nair autocancels, giving him the opportunity to easily Jab (which, by the way, his jab is beyond amazing), Tilt, or pretty much anything after landing with Nair. WS nullifies the Gyro (what the hell is that about?), and it can be a pain to deal with, especially if the Greninja player decides to camp since you're pretty much left with the Laser for zoning and he can just easily shield it and throw WSs faster than ROB can recharge the Laser. Approaching with Nair is a big no-no given that ridiculous Up-Smash, not to mention that he can counter it with Fair, or just simply shield it and take advantage of the end lag afterwards. If he throws you in the air is pretty much a Rosaluma like scenario where he can aim to juggle you non-stop with Uairs, and he can Bair you even if you airdodge the Uair on time. The only thing I can think of that he has as a downside is his grab, which is garbage, but that's not saying much when ROB's grab is bad as well. His recovery is great as well thanks to SS, and let's not forget that he also has a Counter.

I really can't deal with this MU. Approaching only ends up punishing me, and trying to force Greninja to approach me can be next to impossible thanks to the WS. I've been trying to find videos online to try and get a better understanding of the MU, but even then I'm greeted with the ROB player having a hell of a hard time.

Check this video out Kero () vs Mister Eric () :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DySBrjZVG0

Watching how easy this MU can be for Greninja baffles me. Is there anything I can do to try and make this MU better for ROB? Or should I just invest some time on a secondary? I swear, not even Diddy, nor Rosaluma, nor Sonic gets me as frustrated as this MU does.

 

[zephyrnereus]

ROB has trouble with ninjas in general, as his visual receptors can have trouble picking up their fast movement.

in all seriousness though, the only tips I can offer is always have a gyro out. whether on the floor or in your hand, it will at least give you some control over the situation. the mindgames you can play with a gyro in hand can be quite scary to the opponent if you don't throw it immediately. also, fully grounded gyros seem to beat out uncharged shurikens (like here), but launched gyros vanish on contact (like here), so keep an eye out on that. what I would recommend is watch how greninja plays when a grounded gyro is nearby and punish accordingly if he tries to grab it or dodge it. side-B isn't very useful in this matchup, unless you can read a fully charged shuriken.

greninja may be fast, but he has some pretty laggy specials. make sure to read those and punish hard. also, getting him off the stage will probably be the best way to close out a stock, or U-throw can work too if you punished correctly.

basically, you want to keep greninja out of your zone as much as possible. make him work hard to avoid gyros and lasers, then once you conditioned him, mix it up with delayed gyro throws or move in/run away with a Z-dropped gyros. f-tilts, fairs, retreating nairs will help you out as well.

 

[1Miguel1]

I won against a Greninja at a recent tourney, maybe you can use it as study material (or criticise me if you think I could have played better):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHTeCw-hroM

EDIT:
Mixup SH nairs with SH fairs and FH fair (and laser/gyro). But don't be afraid to approach him. Watch his movement. Try to read his next move and punish. Think he's going to SH? SH fair him in the face.

It can be ok to challenge him from above if it's not predictable, but he can easily up smash or up air you.

SideB should only be used if your opponent jumps (and you don't expect him to use nair, that **** goes through our sideB). Greninjas love to tomahawk and SH water shuriken. SideB could also be used when your opponent hangs on the ledge and you try to cover his ledge options.

And remember, you can also tomahawk(SH fastfall -> preferably shield). This can trick Greninja into approaching you.

Greninjas recovery is exploitable. Gyro, nair, and laser are easy to hit. Bair or dair if you're reading his upB.

At (3:14)[https://youtu.be/8DySBrjZVG0?t=3m14s] you tried to land by going to the middle of the stage, and you ate another up air. I would have just fastfalled and airdodged while holding left. Always remember you can reset the situation by going to the ledge.

Sometimes you could have punished with grab but you used jab/dtilt instead. Beep Boop ftw.

To be honest though, the Greninja you were playing seemed better than the Greninja I was playing. I got many free grabs from my opponent, he approached recklessly tbh. You're probably better than me lol. It seemed like I played more aggressively though.

 

[1Miguel1]

Got rekt by another Greninja last friday though...
Critique?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFVwivAbmzA
(Commentary is a bit off-sync in the video fyi)

 

[Locuan]

Hey everyone. We are to begin discussion on the ROB match-up on the Lucina Match-Up Thread. It would be great if you could help us out!
http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-match-up-discussion-update-rob.373171/

 

[GwJ]

Fox is up, please contribute if you can: http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-12-fox.400050/

Also, if you want to have a character discussed, please say so. I want to ramp up the frequency or concurrency of our discussions. At the pace we're going of 1 a week, it'll take about a year to get through the whole roster. That's way too slow.

SUPER EDIT: I've changed our format from 1 a week to 3. I think this is better for several reasons:

1. We will get through the roster three times as fast.

2. More people will be able to participate. Not everybody has experience in certain matchups. If we have 3 matchup discussions going on at once, it is more likely that any person at a given time will be able to contribute SOMEWHERE. I want everyone to feel like they have something to contribute (and I want everybody who is able to contribute TO contribute).

3. This will prevent stale matchups in the future. The sooner we finish our discussions, the sooner we can start revisting discussions. Take our Diddy matchup for example. Diddy's been nerfed in the patch and this should be noted in our discussion.


And so, our very first wave of 3 characters is Fox, Pikachu, and Ness. Please refer to the OP for links to the threads or just take at look at the main forum page.

 

[TheTantalus]

I want to give my input on some of the harder matchups here and if these need to be posted elsewhere feel free to quote me.

My opinions reflect Defaults (no customs) in 1.0.6.

Worst R.O.B Matchups:

Sheik (75:25)- I think everyone understands why this is bad already. Speed and mobility counter R.O.B. incredibly well, which is the same reason the next two are awful matchups as well:

Pikachu (70:30)- Pikachu's mobility and use particularly of the quick attack make this matchup incredibly difficult. Pikachu in non-customs always has an answer to R.O.B.'s recovery, which is a huge problem. He can force you to recover high or low, and use thunder or bair to cover options. On stage, only the gyro can slow the thunder jolts down. with the kill throw nerfed this is one of R.O.B's toughest matchups.

Sonic (75:25)- Sonic is Waaaaay too fast to fight with R.O.B. After playing Seagull extensively I still have yet to even take a stock from him (but other average sonics I can win tourney sets, both online and in person). Seagull taught me about this matchup and basically sonic can jump over anything rob can put out there and his damage output is way higher. One of the biggest issues here is again how well sonic can cover rob off stage. and with the lower kill throw power, getting a hoo hah is super difficult.

Peach (60:40)- Peach loves to hover over all of R.O.B's traps. Which sucks. Fair kinda smashes through the majority of R.O.Bs moves and again, Peach is another mobility type character.

Toon Link (60:40)- Dont' have a lot of time to delve in, but Toon Link can really give R.O.B. hell off stage. This matchup can get frustrating fast because Toon Link has as many traps as R.O.B.

Also whoever said Villager is a horrible matchup is completely incorrect. I think that matchup may even favor R.O.B. More on that when I get more time.

Obviously diddy is a bad matchup as well but it's a bit more managable now.

 

[Crome]

Also whoever said Villager is a horrible matchup is completely incorrect. I think that matchup may even favor R.O.B. More on that when I get more time.

Please expand on this statement.


EDIT: Next week could we do peach? There's a really good peach player here and I have no idea how to fight him.

 

[zephyrnereus]

I personally feel that peach is pretty even for ROB. although peach can float over a lot of projectiles, this is easily answered by hopping before tossing gyros or aiming lasers upwards or very hard downwards. also, peach's fair may be strong, but ROB's is faster. not to mention that peach is relatively big and floaty, making it easy to combo and kill with well timed Uairs. I feel it winds down to who has the better aerial timing and item game.

 

[Syde7]

Please find my comments contained within the quote, in different font coloring.

I want to give my input on some of the harder matchups here and if these need to be posted elsewhere feel free to quote me.

My opinions reflect Defaults (no customs) in 1.0.6.

Worst R.O.B Matchups:

Sheik (75:25)- I think everyone understands why this is bad already. Speed and mobility counter R.O.B. incredibly well, which is the same reason the next two are awful matchups as well: I agree completely. Maybe a bit extreme on the ratio, I'd give it a 65:35 to 70:30. But, we're arguing semantics at this point.

Pikachu (70:30)- Pikachu's mobility and use particularly of the quick attack make this matchup incredibly difficult. Pikachu in non-customs always has an answer to R.O.B.'s recovery, which is a huge problem. He can force you to recover high or low, and use thunder or bair to cover options. On stage, only the gyro can slow the thunder jolts down. with the kill throw nerfed this is one of R.O.B's toughest matchups. I also agree with this. Pikachu, imo, can actually outcamp ROB if he really, really wants to with thunder jolts shot from different heights (ground, SH, Full Jump w/ all of those performed from the ground as well as platforms). His superior speed/mobility & QA makes catching him hard. I would put it at 65:35, but again... semantics.

Sonic (75:25)- Sonic is Waaaaay too fast to fight with R.O.B. After playing Seagull extensively I still have yet to even take a stock from him (but other average sonics I can win tourney sets, both online and in person). Seagull taught me about this matchup and basically sonic can jump over anything rob can put out there and his damage output is way higher. One of the biggest issues here is again how well sonic can cover rob off stage. and with the lower kill throw power, getting a hoo hah is super difficult. I agree with you in large part here, you make some valid points especially about jumping over most of our stuff. Not to mention he seems to have more priority & disjoint than us. I wouldn't put it at THAT bad of a ratio. I'd say 40:60, Sonic's favor.

Peach (60:40)- Peach loves to hover over all of R.O.B's traps. Which sucks. Fair kinda smashes through the majority of R.O.Bs moves and again, Peach is another mobility type character. I'd consider this a 50:50. Positioning yourself so that angled lasers (bounced off ground, or angled up) helps a TON. But, its reliant on positioning yourself in response to her float height & distance. This is one of those MU's where you HAVE to know your laser angles. Same with shooting a gyro. I tend to keep it on the ground to control where she can land after her float. That + getting a feel for what she likes to do to land from floating (float back with no aerial, land into a jab, land with an f-air) works wonders. Also, if the gyro isn't on the ground, keep it in hand. Its a great way to mitigate her float... as she comes in -> Jump back & toss it to her either before or after the item grab window of her aerial. The biggest struggle I have with Peach is landing. Her float covers lots options with F-air and U-air, as does U-tilt, and dash attack can be a REAL pain to deal with. Outside of that, a patient poking game seems to work quite well vs. her.

Toon Link (60:40)- Dont' have a lot of time to delve in, but Toon Link can really give R.O.B. hell off stage. This matchup can get frustrating fast because Toon Link has as many traps as R.O.B. I feel you're on the right track with this... I dont know if I just dont know the MU vs Toon Link, or what... but he does feel quite difficult to play against for various reasons (the ones you listed being among them).

Also whoever said Villager is a horrible matchup is completely incorrect. I think that matchup may even favor R.O.B. More on that when I get more time. I do not agree with this in the slightest. I think the reasoning behind this has already been covered, but I definitely wouldn't mind discussing with you.

Obviously diddy is a bad matchup as well but it's a bit more managable now.

 

[TheTantalus]

I've fought some villager players in the region (Cree for example, who just beat ChuDat last week) and other average ones (with ROB anyways) and I haven't had any trouble so far.

Villagers fair and bair are awful for R.O.B., I get that. however, villager has no viable approach on R.O.B outside of that. ROB can uptilt the aerials for a trade/win, and ROB is one of the only characters in the game that can completely negate villagers recovery. ROB is so potent off stage for knocking out the balloons and punishing the lloid rocket.

The fact that he can take the gyro is really actually just fine- what's worse is him pocketing a fully charged laser, which can kill you incredibly early. Making sure you only use the short laser and letting him pocket gyro can be to your advantage.

The other thing is that villager can cover low recovery really well, so you have to use a high recovery, which again, rob does very well. So yeah, he does take away a lot of the things that make rob potent, but some of the things that ROB can't do well against other characters, he can do very well against villager.

 

[PUK]

I've fought some villager players in the region (Cree for example, who just beat ChuDat last week) and other average ones (with ROB anyways) and I haven't had any trouble so far.

Villagers fair and bair are awful for R.O.B., I get that. however, villager has no viable approach on R.O.B outside of that. ROB can uptilt the aerials for a trade/win, and ROB is one of the only characters in the game that can completely negate villagers recovery. ROB is so potent off stage for knocking out the balloons and punishing the lloid rocket.

The fact that he can take the gyro is really actually just fine- what's worse is him pocketing a fully charged laser, which can kill you incredibly early. Making sure you only use the short laser and letting him pocket gyro can be to your advantage.

The other thing is that villager can cover low recovery really well, so you have to use a high recovery, which again, rob does very well. So yeah, he does take away a lot of the things that make rob potent, but some of the things that ROB can't do well against other characters, he can do very well against villager.

This is how metagame progresses, thank u.
But if Villager camp behind the tree, what do you do?

 

[Syde7]

I've fought some villager players in the region (Cree for example, who just beat ChuDat last week) and other average ones (with ROB anyways) and I haven't had any trouble so far.

Villagers fair and bair are awful for R.O.B., I get that. however, villager has no viable approach on R.O.B outside of that. ROB can uptilt the aerials for a trade/win, and ROB is one of the only characters in the game that can completely negate villagers recovery. ROB is so potent off stage for knocking out the balloons and punishing the lloid rocket.

The fact that he can take the gyro is really actually just fine- what's worse is him pocketing a fully charged laser, which can kill you incredibly early. Making sure you only use the short laser and letting him pocket gyro can be to your advantage.

The other thing is that villager can cover low recovery really well, so you have to use a high recovery, which again, rob does very well. So yeah, he does take away a lot of the things that make rob potent, but some of the things that ROB can't do well against other characters, he can do very well against villager.

Let me begin by saying: Maybe you know something about this MU I don't, lol. I would love to see some vids of you playing this MU. That is in no way me hinting that I don't believe you - but rather I would definitely like to see how you play the MU so I can possibly find some things I need to stop or start doing.



That being said:

I somewhat disagree with Villager having no viable approach outside of F-air and B-air. Those two aerials play an important part in an effective villager approach, certainly. But I find the real threat in terms of a Villager approach is the combination of a Lloid Rocket + Aerials (all aerials, actually...) / grabs / smashes

Lloid forces an action. Either shield, roll forward/backward, spotdodge, laser/gyro, short hop -> something, jump->something, jab/tilts, or rotor arm. Its largely a game of rock/paper/scissors at this point, but its a RPS that's in Villager's favor, as one of his options covers multiple of ROBs.

• Lloid rocket will straight out beat anything except a shield, I believe. Meaning, you can't jab or tilt it, or react to it in any offensive way other than a laser or gyro. I could be wrong, but Ive not had success with it. Someone plz confirm.
• Villager grab beats:
  • Shield
  • A roll forward/in depending on spacing
  • And I believe a spotdodge used to dodge Lloid as well.
• Villager D-air beats:
  • Spot dodge
  • U-tilt (I believe)
  • Short Hops (providing he FJ's the D-air)
  • Rolls (depending on if he read/guessed correctly)
  • Spotdodges
• Villager F- and B-air beats:
  • Short Hop -> something
  • Full Jump -> something
  • Rolls forward/backward.
• 2x Aerials (one rising, the other as he is landing) beats all of the above, in addition to spotdodges, I believe.
  
  
• D-smash beats
  • Spotdodge (depending on the direction Villager is facing)
  • Roll in
• U-smash beats:
  • Roll in
  • Forward short hop.
• F-smash beats:
  • Spotdodge
  • Possibly shield depending on its health (shieldbreak)

In the event that he has you pinned near a sapling, he can Lloid->Watering Can -> Tree Grows that will wreck literally every option except a roll, I think. Odds are Lloid+Tree will break your shield.

Almost all of these actions will come out faster than most of yours. You'll notice I left out laser/gyro as something his moves beat. The reason being is that, technically, all of his moves beat that depending on where the Villager is at the time you attempt to use laser/gyro while he is approaching. If he's remotely close, you'll lose the exchange (meaning he'll hit you before either come out). If he's slightly under mid-range, you'll most likely trade (iirc, Laser only destroys Lloid at a certain distance; the farther away it is, the less likely it is to detonate it. Similar situation with a gyro, based more on charge, I believe. Could be mistaken).

Obviously, as the possible Villager reward goes up, so does the difficulty of getting that reward.

Oddly enough, despite all that I feel that the neutral game isn't terribly out of whack. In villager's favor, imo, but not by a large margin. The neutral really revolves around making the correct choice, and putting the right move out there, consistently, and consistently getting your FU's off of that w.o overextending. (Lol, looks I just describe Sm4sh neutral in general, lol...). I just think its a bit harder for ROB to do that, bc he has less "right moves for X situation" in this MU than some others.


And that's just the approach game. Once villager gets a moderate lead (say... 30% or so on you) he probably won't be doing much approaching. That's where the real hassle comes in, imo. This is the part of the MU I struggle with more than any other facet. F-air and B-air are a hassle, especially when combined with Lloid. Best bet is to pepper him with lasers and hope for the best. ROB's speed... well, ROB in general isn't conducive to catching Villager if he is trying to run away, at all. He's not a Sheik, Pika, Sonic, etc who can just get in quickly as Villager is attempting to run.

On larger stages, villager can use all his tools to run, and the increased running room just makes it harder to catch him. On smaller stages, the sheer number of annoying hitboxes he can put out in such a small space can be overwhelming for ROB's clunkiness. Having platforms can make this even more difficult, as he has something to hide underneath.

Then, there's the ledge camping. I just don't feel ROB can safely and consistently contend with a villager who is using Lloid in conjunction with aerials. This is the part of the MU that I can't stand to play, and usually gets me frustrated with my lack of options. ROB doesn't have a handy projectile like thunderjolt to police the ledge (ESPECIALLY if gyro is taken... as you can't leave it spinning on the edge. Not that it would matter, pocket has enough range on it that he can ledge-hop and pocket into a regrab) or the aerial mobility+really hard to disrupt recovery of a Sheik, etc etc...The difficulty of the ledgecamp is increased if there is a tree in place. If anyone has any tips on what to do here, I'd greatly appreciate them, lol.


Regarding getting the gyro taken: This sucks, all the way around. There's no "it isn't that bad" to it, imo. Getting it taken eliminates one of our (few) options in this MU. There's just a lot having a gyro on the field, or in hand, or able to shoot provides us.

I deal with the pocket by getting a feel for how much the Villager wants my gyro. If he really wants it, I can condition him into whiffing the pocket and then punish accordingly. However, if he is more patient with a "I'll get it... eventually. Wait for it... waaaait fooorrrr iiittt..." mentality, this becomes increasingly hard to do. At high percents where Im sure a U-throw or D-/F-/U-Smash will kill, I will actually let him pocket the gyro (providing I am in range) and hit with one of these for a KO during the brief lag. Gotta be johnny on the spot, tho. I'll get my gyro back immediately, and I'm now ahead.


I understand that just the threat of the pocket makes it have less utility in the MU, but its nice to have it when there's a window for it... which won't happen if pocketed. Also, I have had a Villager pocket a full laser maybe a handful of times, total. I usually never let it get to full-charge status, as its the best way to safely get chip damage (imo).


I do agree with Villager having great tools to cover low recoveries and that we should focus on recovering high, but I don't think its something that "ROB is good at" (to paraphrase what you said). Villager U-air has good speed, good priority, and a decent disjoint (iirc). U-smash is viable, as are aerials + Lloid to more or less limit where you can land. Couple that with ROB's terrible defensive options in the air w/ an opponent below. About the only way to safely get down is to B-reverse a gyro cancel and hope that the Villager guessed wrong on the 50/50, doesn't have something in place to fux with that landing, or just hope for a goof on his part.

I also don't feel ROB is that great at edgeguarding villager in terms of netting a gimp. Villagers I play tend to recover from super low, and utilize aerials on their way down to prevent me really going off and pursuing as much as I'd like. Would love to hear tips/input on how to be more efficient/successful in this regard. I'd type more, but... this has been a long post and my fingers are tired, lol!




All in all, you make some good points and I don't totally disagree with some of them. But, I refuse to believe this MU is anything less terrible than 40:60 (Villager's favor). Like I said, I would love to see some vids of your play vs. a Villager to see if there's anything I can improve on that will change my outlook on this.

 

[PUK]

All tournament are not recorded. At least where i live.

I somewhat disagree with Villager having no viable approach outside of F-air and B-air. Those two aerials play an important part in an effective villager approach, certainly. But I find the real threat in terms of a Villager approach is the combination of a Lloid Rocket + Aerials (all aerials, actually...) / grabs / smashes

Lloid forces an action. Either shield, roll forward/backward, spotdodge, laser/gyro, short hop -> something, jump->something, jab/tilts, or rotor arm. Its largely a game of rock/paper/scissors at this point, but its a RPS that's in Villager's favor, as one of his options covers multiple of ROBs.

Actually you can react by jumping longer before the Lloid moves. And it can put you in Villager dead angle so he's forced to go away or make a bet. The more i fight villager the less i fear his approach.
But i still have issue with camping villager

 

[Syde7]

All tournament are not recorded. At least where i live.
Actually you can react by jumping longer before the Lloid moves. And it can put you in Villager dead angle so he's forced to go away or make a bet. The more i fight villager the less i fear his approach.
But i still have issue with camping villager

I mean, I know not all tourney vids are recorded, lol. I was just wondering if he had any that were that I could see.
And, the whole jumping before the Lloid is launched works, but only at distances outside of the mid-range, which isn't an issue to begin with. Anything closer than that, and you're not in Villager's blindspots. I could be mistaken tho. I'll see if I can get some testing on this to confirm in the event I've overlooked it. Thanks for the input

 

[TheTantalus]

I probably need more experience against different villager players. Rupee and tc1 in our region also play villager, perhaps i'll MM them if I don't play them in bracket next week and see if I can find a different view.

You can laser through almost every projectile the villager uses, just let him take the gyro first, so the laser is a safe bet. You can also rush past lloid rocket on start up, so if he doesn't have the sapling in place, that's your opportunity. If he does, you just wait it out.

I constantly let them keep the gyro. It means they won't be able to pocket anything else. Once they get frustrated of not being able to pocket the laser, they'll switch, and so will I.

 

[Syde7]

I probably need more experience against different villager players. Rupee and tc1 in our region also play villager, perhaps i'll MM them if I don't play them in bracket next week and see if I can find a different view.

You can laser through almost every projectile the villager uses, just let him take the gyro first, so the laser is a safe bet. You can also rush past lloid rocket on start up, so if he doesn't have the sapling in place, that's your opportunity. If he does, you just wait it out.

I constantly let them keep the gyro. It means they won't be able to pocket anything else. Once they get frustrated of not being able to pocket the laser, they'll switch, and so will I.

Good stuff. I'll try out some of the things you mentioned in your previous posts as well, and see if that helps brighten my outlook & imptove my performance on this MU. Of course, I super hope you're right and the MU becomes much easier, lol.

 

[Jams.]

I probably need more experience against different villager players. Rupee and tc1 in our region also play villager, perhaps i'll MM them if I don't play them in bracket next week and see if I can find a different view.

You can laser through almost every projectile the villager uses, just let him take the gyro first, so the laser is a safe bet. You can also rush past lloid rocket on start up, so if he doesn't have the sapling in place, that's your opportunity. If he does, you just wait it out.

I constantly let them keep the gyro. It means they won't be able to pocket anything else. Once they get frustrated of not being able to pocket the laser, they'll switch, and so will I.

In theory, I feel like the optimal use of pocketed gyro is as a safe mid/long range punish tool that also happens to restrict ROB's usage of his own mid range zoning/punish tool, instead of simply keeping it all game. I feel like if Villagers optimized gyro usage better, it would restrict ROB's neutral game a lot more so he can't just throw out lasers/aerials in neutral. Pocketed gyro also does a lot of damage.

I'm not sure if this works in practice though. The Villager I play with just pockets gyro the entire game. It's possible the unpocketing animation is too long to make pocketed gyro practical as a mid range tool.

This discussion has been really helpful for my understanding of the matchup though. Very appreciated.

 

[Lizard_Buttock]

So how do we deal with Mewtwo constantly reflecting our projectiles? I'm having problems with that MU

 

[zephyrnereus]

mewtwo? this is a character you want to not play campy with. you actually want to rush him down. weave in and out using fairs, tilts, dashes, and quick lasers. the thing about this matchup is that if mewtwo doesn't kill you early (his best option is a spike), then you can easily destroy him with rage. I'm pretty sure you can pop him off the top with a good Uair at like 50% or higher with max rage. I need to check the percentage though.

 

[Syde7]

Just wanted to say to @ TheTantalus that after some matches against a really solid player & his Sonic today in tourney, that I'm pulling my ratio of this match back from 40:60 (Sonic) to the range of 30:70 / 65:35 for the time being (which is much closer to your assessment of the MU). Granted, the guy is a MUCH better player than I am, and better than most (2nd on our state's PR, has taken some pretty biggish names to 5 before) folks, so I'm sure player skill had a lot to do with it.

But, he's the first like, "super above average" Sonic I've played against and I really do feel now that ROB, as a character, has very little options against Sonic. My opinion may change as I play him more often and learn the MU at a higher level than what I'm accustomed to.

 

[Lizard_Buttock]

I'm also wondering how you can deal with Olimar/Alph. His pikmin have priority over the gyros and it's hard to get them off of you. Not even slightly sure why Olimar's considered low tier.

 

[PUK]

Where he's considered low tier?
Anyway Nair can deal with most pikmin bar red ( resist fire) and purple. It allows you to avoid white insane damage per second.
Overall Alph as a short efficient range. The further you are the less he's threatening. All FD away: he can only toss the yellow and white pikmin. Half FD: all pikmin toss but purple work, white grab, etc...
If you play alph yourself (you should he's funny) try to know the queue.

 

[Lizard_Buttock]

Where he's considered low tier?
Anyway Nair can deal with most pikmin bar red ( resist fire) and purple. It allows you to avoid white insane damage per second.
Overall Alph as a short efficient range. The further you are the less he's threatening. All FD away: he can only toss the yellow and white pikmin. Half FD: all pikmin toss but purple work, white grab, etc...
If you play alph yourself (you should he's funny) try to know the queue.

I meant that he was middle-tier without customs. For some reason, I'm absolutely terrible against OlimAlph as every character. I'm just so distracted by the pikmin and the fact that he can deal near-constant damage to you that I always screw up and he punishes me for it. It's essentially an auto-mindgame.

 

[GwJ]

Our next wave of characters are up: Peach, Pac Man, and Mario!

Just a reminder: Even though we advance on to new characters every week, no discussions are closed. If you have something to say on a matchup we've discussed, you're still welcome to post it and it WILL influence the MU no matter when it's posted. (I'm looking at you, Diddy)

 

[Ulevo]

Meta Knight vs R.O.B.

 

[Mister Eric]

I know it's not on the list but, I'll share my quick $0.02 on the MK MU.
Copied from the MK thread:
"Katakiri and I are about equal level players.
And we go stupidly back and forth in matches. We hardly ever have a set that isn't game 3 or game 5.
MK is rly good vs rob off stage.
ROB is an easy nado target, but nado is weak and easy to disrupt. So if the MK is rly good at mixing up nados, it can work out and you eat about 20%.
ROB can harrass MK with gyro pretty well. I rly like having a gyro in my hand for out of shield options.
MK being short is a + in this MU.
ROB has a lot of quick moves like jab and dtilt and up tilt. Even fair. Use these to rack damage and box him out.
I get most of my kills on katakiri by grabs and punishing dodge reads with up and dsmash.
These are just some random quick notes. I think the MU is 50:50 atm. Hope this helps!
ROB seems to fall into combos that end with the sweet spot of MK's up+b, but either:
A.) I haven't figured out how to DI it (maybe it's dependent where he initially connects with the up b)
B.) This just simply happens to a lot of ppl.
C,) ROB is just unlucky and is highly combo-able bc of his big booty."

(I'm looking at you, Diddy)

I got to play with the best Diddy on Smashladder.com (Luisfer) and he was super fluid in his follow ups and combos. I'll post a vid of some matches soon.

 

[Syde7]

@ Mister Eric I think that its a mixture of DI/where the up+B hitbox contacts our hurtbox, as well as DI. I've had success DI'ing it so that the strong hit doesn't connect. I can't remember the percent ranges where its been most frequent (Ill have to go back and look at some of my replays), but iirc I wind up having more success w/ DI'ing it at a certain percentage range.

It also seems that we more or less have the same assessment of the MK MU. So, I've got that going for me, which is nice. =P

Also to touch vaguely on the Diddy MU again (since you mentioned it briefly yourself) getting the Hoo-Ha nerfed is absolutely lovely, as it negates the mindless damage build and KO set up- but Diddy still definitely wins the MU. He has all the tools speaking purely from a frame/disjoint/priority POV, to really take it to ROB. To me, the nerfs just mean that the Diddy has to rely a bit more on following/predicting DI, as well as baiting/punishing as opposed to a "mindless, auto-pilot" playstyle, which good players/Diddys were doing pre-patch (for the most part). I will admit, the U-throw nerf hurts in this MU, as its early KO potential was the solid offset to Diddy's damage building + early KO (the former of which he still has in spades) + it was the best way of keeping him honest in terms of spacing properly at >100%.

I'll look forward to watching those vids, fersure. Definitely would like to see how other ROBs play the MU.

 

[GwJ]

Bowser Jr., Ganondorf, and Shulk threads are up!

Sorry I'm late again, I'm in the middle of finals week for last semester at university. After next week, I'll be back to normal.

 

[GwJ]

I've updated the OP. I found a font similar to the ones in-game and I made some big flashy icons so we can hang with the cool kids too.

 

[Crome]

Ohh, fancy. Kinda miss the quotes that were under each character.

 

[GwJ]

I started phasing those out a while ago. I thought they dirtied the OP up so what I did was as soon as a character had their own thread, I moved the quote to the thread and removed it from the OP.

 

[Crome]

I started phasing those out a while ago. I thought they dirtied the OP up so what I did was as soon as a character had their own thread, I moved the quote to the thread and removed it from the OP.

I just thought it was a handy index for some quick info. I really do like having the character link to their specific thread, although.

 

[GwJ]

True, and I suppose there is enough room for some kind of brief synopsis. I just tend to lean towards clean OPs with links elsewhere because I like to compartmentalize things. I put stuff in buckets, then put the buckets in bigger buckets, then I put those buckets with buckets in it in one big bucket and I show that huge bucket to everyone and say "Pick out what you want to see."