[QLD] Power Rankings V6.5 - Update 4/1/13

[KuroganeHammer]

Rob will have more fun in tournaments now that MK is gone.

Sheik had dumb stuff on MK so I didn't mind him that much.

 

[Attila_]

lol dont compare snake and zelda.

she's just really terrible.

and i also reckon lucario is pretty good, or at least, i think he can win tournaments.

rob on the other hand...

 

[dean.]

There's pretty much no debate that both Diddy and Falco beat Dedede about 60:40. To oversimplify, all they have to do is run away from him and watch him waddle after them...

 

[Attila_]

videos of a falco successfully stalling please.

 

[Jesmo]

Falco doesn't beat D3?........ O.K, whatever you say....

 

[dean.]

My computer broke which makes finding/linking videos difficult, but in Falco's case it's not stalling, he should just try to avoid closer-range fights as that gives Dedede the best chances to apply damage (but even then jab makes it a pain to land grabs. Lucky nearly every other move Falco has is grab bait...).

 

[Karnu]

lol dont compare snake and zelda.

she's just really terrible.

and i also reckon lucario is pretty good, or at least, i think he can win tournaments.

rob on the other hand...

Lucario can win any tourney he wants

 

[swordsaint]

yeah that was pretty silly attila. like i agree the matchup isnt as bad as people say when they imply falco ***** dedede, but he still wins pretty comfortably.

 

[Attila_]

dare i ask why?

 

[swordsaint]

fat and eats lasers (he's slowish so he can't dash through them and shield as well either), kinda easy to grab, large so jabs and nair are lolsy. don't forget his lolsy recovery

generally he's just outsped. only real advantage in the matchup is his weight and kill potential.

 

[Attila_]

d3 can survive fresh snake utilt at 150%. what kinda of percent does falco kill him at?

d3 has most of those issues against snake, but it doesnt change the fact d3 has a field day in the snake mu.

 

[swordsaint]

its all dependant. it can be average %'s if we abuse the recovery (some kind of spike or bair offstage)

falco doesnt get cgd be dedede either.

 

[Remastered]

Falco is one of only a few characters that D3 can't tech chase either because of a wierd roll speed and distance. The MU is very bad for D3, 60:40 at the very least, but then you get countered to a stage like SV or FD, and basically you should put the control down.

D3 doesn't die easily upward, but he actually has one of the worst momentums horizontally, which means Falco's sneeze kills him pretty early even with really good DI.

All MU's that are bad for D3 are:

MK 70:30 Tornado
IC's 70:30 infinite hobling, 2 climbers ruins D3's best asset, the grab game.
Falco atleast 60:40 on most stages, harder on counters. Can CG D3 to high percents.
Olimar 60:40 only because the gimp is relatively easy to get. Can chain grab D3 till about 40%.
Pikachu 60:40 shield pokes all day, can chain grab D3 until about 50%, even higher against a wall.
ZSS - 60:40 If the ZSS is good, they can kill you from one grab. Apollo has done this to me atleast twice because of a ridiculous grab release infinite to downB stage spike.
Diddy 60:40 - 55:45 imo, I personally don't mind this MU, you just can't let them get the percent lead.
Fox 60:40 no CG and hard tech chase. If fox gets the lead he can actually run away the entire match.
Shiek 55:45 Same as fox basically, with links to sweetspot Usmash out of grab release.
Pit 55:45 Gets Percent lead, and runs away the entire match.
Wario can go from 60:40 Wario Favour all the way to 60:40 D3 favour depending on stage.

Snakes MU's
D3 55:45 - 50:50 Stage dependant
Marth 55:45 - 50:50 - 45:55 Stage dependant
Olimar 55:45 - 50:50 Stage dependant.
MK 55:45 Stage Dependant

Therefore Snake > D3 by a long way

 

[swordsaint]

60/40 to me is about right. his weight can strength compared to falcos in the right situation can be dangerous, but everywhere else he's outclassed.

 

[Remastered]

My fav colour is GREEN Leish

Edit: The only reason I picked up MK was because of the top 3 on that list against D3.

 

[Attila_]

Snakes MU's
D3 55:45 - 50:50 Stage dependant
Marth 55:45 - 50:50 - 45:55 Stage dependant
Olimar 55:45 - 50:50 Stage dependant.
MK 55:45 Stage Dependant

Therefore Snake > D3 by a long way

lol this is completely wrong. they're all 60:40 or worse, and most high level players will agree.

under no circumstance does snake beat marth. never ever.

and you forgot pika and wario.

also, what is this infinite hobbling you speak of? i can sdi out of a hobble at about 150% with snake... surely d3 can't be that much harder. at the very least, you can sdi to the ledge after 7-8 hobbles or so.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

D3 doesn't die easily upward, but he actually has one of the worst momentums horizontally, which means Falco's sneeze kills him pretty early even with really good DI.

Minor nitpick about this. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Momentum_canceling

Horizontally his is 4th best.

Also Dedede beats solo Sheik with a +1 matchup. And she can't grab release Dedede as far as I know.

Sheilda is supposed to be 0, but I don't think Zelda brings anything to the table that solo Sheik doesn't.

 

[Remastered]

@ Attila: When will you ever admit that Snake is an amazing character.

None of them are 60:40, and you know it yourself as well. Even on bad stages, Snake still runs close to even with them.

You said yourself at reloaded that you don't agree Pika has the advantage lol, and the Wario MU is definitely in Snake's favour, but as with all Wario MU's they are heavily stage dependant.

@Aero: A word of advice, don't go to smash wiki for your information regarding the game. Play D3 and let me know how good is horizontal momentum cancelling is. Easily one of the worst. Probably 4th worst. I'm sure Dean can back me up with this too.

The last time I looked at smashwiki, they were doing a smash ball tier list, and the highest jumping characters tier list lol.

The grab release is a pummel release, ZSS does the same one, and because of D3's height, size, and silly landing animation, you have plenty of time to DACUS the sweetspot.

 

[xXArrowXx]

snake gets bodied by marth... just watch him get spiked by marth on low percents... all day.

d3 has got way better match ups than that

 

[Remastered]

*sigh*, the current metagame means that any character he can't chain grab that is faster than him, wins. You can literally run away from D3 all day. Ted did exactly this to me at reloaded and I couldn't do anything. 6 minutes of him being 10% better off then me, and me being to slow in the air or on the ground to catch him. It's as simple as that. Australia just hasn't felt this pain yet.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

lawl items.

Hmm, okay. In anycase, I was just trying this pummel release thing, and it seems pretty unreliable. After about 50 grabs, I couldn't pull off the grab release, let alone buffering a DACUS. =P

I dunno. I'm probs doing it wrong.

 

[Remastered]

Ask Toki to show you, I'm pretty sure he has done it to me before.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hmm okei. <3

I think Dedede needs to be more worried about ftilt though. That move is dumb.

imo

 

[swordsaint]

its because he's too fat pretty much.

even though he can DI the horizontal knockback up, he starts to fall and arcs too much.

 

[Remastered]

^^ Scoot knows whats up. You can DI to the top corner and you will still only get half way up the stage boundary. D3 makes you DI everything vertically, just so you don't die at 80% by something ridiculous out the side of the screen.

Given he falls faster then every character in the game. Rivalled only by Fox who doesn't have quite as fast overall fall speed, but accelerates to his top fall speed the fastest. Fox also dies stupidly sideways.

 

[dean.]

Smashwiki has Dedede as 4th using Super Dedede Jump as a momentum canceller. While this may or may not be true, it's a terrible option in every way and will never be used in a serious match. So much so that I had no idea it actually cancelled momentum.

Dedede's momentum cancelling is fairly average. While his bair is quick, his double jump does very little to cancel momentum. If he didn't have the 4th highest knockback resistance in the game, he'd be in a bit of trouble. As it is, he still dies fairly early horizontally compared to those of around his "weight."

Falco's usmash kills Dedede from about 165% fresh. Can get kills earlier since he's not that hard to bait into fsmash. I have never heard of Dedede surviving fresh Snake utilts at 150%; he should start to die at about 130%. I'd agree with Falco:Dedede being 60:40. The entire Dedede boards think Snake:Dedede is even though...

All MU's that are bad for D3 are:

MK 70:30 Tornado Shuttle Loop
IC's 70:30 infinite hobling, 2 climbers ruins D3's best asset, the grab game. 35:65 imo... he can still grab as quick fthrow disrupts them and Inhale is oddly effective... but yeah, bad
Falco atleast 60:40 on most stages, harder on counters. Can CG D3 to high percents.
Olimar 60:40 only because the gimp is relatively easy to get. Can chain grab D3 till about 40%.
Pikachu 60:40 shield pokes all day, can chain grab D3 until about 50%, even higher against a wall. maybe... I've never played it
ZSS - 60:40 If the ZSS is good, they can kill you from one grab. Apollo has done this to me atleast twice because of a ridiculous grab release infinite to downB stage spike. I have seriously never heard of that. My impression is that it's 45:45
Diddy 60:40 - 55:45 imo, I personally don't mind this MU, you just can't let them get the percent lead. I hate it
Fox 60:40 no CG and hard tech chase. If fox gets the lead he can actually run away the entire match.
Shiek 55:45 Same as fox basically, with links to sweetspot Usmash out of grab release. struggles with range, power and recovery from what I've experienced. Needles, combo strings are her saviour though
Pit 55:45 Gets Percent lead, and runs away the entire match. sadface
Wario can go from 60:40 Wario Favour all the way to 60:40 D3 favour depending on stage.

Snakes MU's
D3 55:45 - 50:50 Stage dependant
Marth 55:45 - 50:50 - 45:55 Stage dependant
Olimar 55:45 - 50:50 Stage dependant.
MK 55:45 Stage Dependant

Therefore Snake > D3 by a long way

My thoughts on Dedede's matchups...

Why did a PR topic turn into a Dedede vs. Snake discussion?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I guess it's similar to how Sheik dies faster than Zelda sideways but Zelda dies faster than Sheik vertically.

Brawl is so complicated.

 

[Attila_]

you kids have a habit of oversimplifying things.

snake is good, but other characters are better. no other top tier characters gets juggled as badly, no one gets comprimised as much by making a single mistake. and that's fact.

i personally don't think snake loses to pika, but i have never played the mu at a high level. i am the only snake who feels its even, but even then, my opinion doesn't count for much.

and oli/d3/marth could even be worse than 60:40 on certain stages, and are never any better than 55:45. never.

snake loses to wario everywhere except fd. possibly halberd. wario is the one character who snake cannot get a % lead back from if he loses it.

if you're arcing too much, try airdodging or just not fastfalling. serious.

funnily enough, i'm pretty knowledgable about snake. i've played him for a long time, and done pretty well with him. i also talk to other snakes who do well. got a pretty idea of his metagame.

i'm not stupid.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Where do you think Snake should be on the current tier list?

Curiosities.

 

[Remastered]

Super Jump works similar to bucket breaking, but in most cases, you can't do it because it doesn't give you enough distance to actually get back to the stage lol. Plus, you are either put in a horrible position on your return, or you have to fast fall in helpless.

I understand you have done well Attila, but you have a horrible tendency of underestimating how good he actually is. I don't know why you do it, but you do. You're arn't the only Snake main who does it in Aus though. There is a reason he has been number 2 and 3 for so long, and it's not just because of MK because that MU has been getting worse for years.

@Dean: If you ever play Apollo, get him to show you (my jaw dropped when he did it too me). It's 60:40 according to the boards too.

 

[Attila_]

Where do you think Snake should be on the current tier list?

Curiosities.

with mk:

4th. i think marth is better, but i think snake is better than falco.

without mk:

5th. diddy is king, marth/wario/falco all are better. perhaps d3 too, but he needs more rep before i decide.

I understand you have done well Attila, but you have a horrible tendency of underestimating how good he actually is. I don't know why you do it, but you do. You're arn't the only Snake main who does it in Aus though. There is a reason he has been number 2 and 3 for so long, and it's not just because of MK because that MU has been getting worse for years.

snake still does better against mk than most characters, even at a 60:40 mu. mk is the ****; everyone here is just doing it wrong.

snake was only number 2 for so long because ally did do well with him. ally dropped him and snake stopped winning anything, but people remembered how much ally *****.

notice how in majors, snake rarely places in the top 10, despite being the second most used character. that either means all snake mains suck, or he just isn't good enough.

also, i know how good snake is. if i remember correctly, you were the one who identified it wrong. complaining that his tilts are broken is '09 metagame, cause his best move BY A LONG WAY is grenade. against all high tiers that aren't diddy or falco, tilts will rarely hit, and will often be punished. nades, when used well, completely shut certain characters down. but to keep that up for a prolonged period of time is something that no current snake can do consistently enough.

 

[Splice]

I still can't believe D3 is a good character at all.

The first match I ever played in Brawl was a FFA with friends and I won with D3.
I laughed then.

I still laugh now.

Dedede is fat and dumb. How can he be good?


@Ad3pt: Super Jump doesn't really work like the Bucket Break because the mechanics of the move aside from the actual momentum cancel are entirely different. From what I've seen, all characters momentum cancelling abilities are used with a different mindset and a different technique for making them optimal. Also, I know you are in favour of the opinion that D3s momentum cancel is ****, but just don't compare it to GaWs Bucket Break anyway because I find that insulting To even mention both of them on one page is ... yuck

 

[Karnu]

I still can't believe D3 is a good character at all.

The first match I ever played in Brawl was a FFA with friends and I won with D3.
I laughed then.

I still laugh now.

Dedede is fat and dumb. How can he be good?


@Ad3pt: Super Jump doesn't really work like the Bucket Break because the mechanics of the move aside from the actual momentum cancel are entirely different. From what I've seen, all characters momentum cancelling abilities are used with a different mindset and a different technique for making them optimal. Also, I know you are in favour of the opinion that D3s momentum cancel is ****, but just don't compare it to GaWs Bucket Break anyway because I find that insulting To even mention both of them on one page is ... yuck

I have seen some very good dedede users.

 

[Leisha]

Can you guys take this discussion into the brawl discussion topic, really derailing this thread >.>

Anyway the PR should be complete tomorrow :3

 

[xXArrowXx]

please, i am sick of hearing about how good snake is... when he is not.

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

He's still good either way

 

[Remastered]

The discussion thread was closed last time I checked.

Snake is good.

You know what I meant Splice lol. But yes, D3 is not a top character by any means. The GnW MU is a hard one for the king too.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Snake is indeed good.

I'm sick of people saying he's horrible when he's not.

If he was horrible, he'd be mid/low tier.

Which he's not. lawl

 

[xXArrowXx]

play him and u will understand

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

play him and u will understand

L2 to not be predictable when trying to land. Try Grenade wave bouncing for example.