ACCELERATE
Smash Lord
Siegs knowledge of brawl counterpicks is bewildering. Im gonna have to agree with michael on the pure fact that not only was his post relevant but also intelligent.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
| QLD Autumn LAN 2k9 | Melee/Brawl | Results Page 45
- Thread starter Vyse
- Start date
- Status
Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
I want my phone back T_T
ACCELERATE
Smash Lord
Classification of Random/Neutral Stages:
"Small" or "Medium" sized boundaries
One "solid" floor of appropriate length
No vertical walls
No solid ceilings
No walk-off platforms
No screen scrolling
No environmental damage
No stage elements that disrupt competitive play
Classification of Counter Stages:
As above except:
Random elements with little impact on the players (e.g. random platform movement)
Minor environmental damage
Minor screen-movement
Classification of Banned Stages:
'Walk-off' screens (e.g. Bridge of Eldin)
Vertical walls (e.g. Corneria)
Excessive scrolling (e.g. Rumble Falls)
Major environmental damage (e.g. Port Town Aero Drive)
A design that invites camping/keep-away/stalling (e.g. Temple)
Highly disruptive stage elements (e.g. Skyworld)
With those classifications in place we get the following stages:
Neutral Stages
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Counter Pick Stages
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island
Frigate Orpheon*
Battleship Halberd*
Brinstar (Melee)*
Imo.
"Small" or "Medium" sized boundaries
One "solid" floor of appropriate length
No vertical walls
No solid ceilings
No walk-off platforms
No screen scrolling
No environmental damage
No stage elements that disrupt competitive play
Classification of Counter Stages:
As above except:
Random elements with little impact on the players (e.g. random platform movement)
Minor environmental damage
Minor screen-movement
Classification of Banned Stages:
'Walk-off' screens (e.g. Bridge of Eldin)
Vertical walls (e.g. Corneria)
Excessive scrolling (e.g. Rumble Falls)
Major environmental damage (e.g. Port Town Aero Drive)
A design that invites camping/keep-away/stalling (e.g. Temple)
Highly disruptive stage elements (e.g. Skyworld)
With those classifications in place we get the following stages:
Neutral Stages
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Counter Pick Stages
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island
Frigate Orpheon*
Battleship Halberd*
Brinstar (Melee)*
Imo.
xXArrowXx
Smash Champion
counterpicks should be like anything imo XD stage elements make captain falcon higher on the tier imo =D
if u are still doing that rule that u pick stage before characters then u can avoid fatal weakness =P
plus dodge the cars >.> then its not even a flesh wound.
and yes port town does work against certain people >.>
if u are still doing that rule that u pick stage before characters then u can avoid fatal weakness =P
plus dodge the cars >.> then its not even a flesh wound.
and yes port town does work against certain people >.>
****ashi
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 123
10 white pikmin
swordsaint
Smash Master
Go away. Or I'll **** you at Lan Smash.
Amaterasu
Smash Ace
Chris, need to play you when I get back from Melb, been missing your pikmin, samus, diddy, (insert every other character)!
Anyway, with your neutral list why isn't Yoshi's stage on it?
Edot Again: No, can't figure it out. The stage isn't small, the only thing against it is that it has a tilting platform and the ghost, but I don't see how that is much worse compared to the moving platform on Smashville
Anyway, with your neutral list why isn't Yoshi's stage on it?
Edot Again: No, can't figure it out. The stage isn't small, the only thing against it is that it has a tilting platform and the ghost, but I don't see how that is much worse compared to the moving platform on Smashville
ACCELERATE
Smash Lord
Guys.. Stop spamming. Agree? Disagree?
Haha Nice Edit Chris. I can do it too. Im sure if you read my post you'll work it out.
Haha Nice Edit Chris. I can do it too. Im sure if you read my post you'll work it out.
What are you doing reading random threads in Atlantic South?
Yoshi's Island (Brawl) is more neutral than Final Destination. A flat stage without platforms makes for a very one sided match against a skilled Diddy/Snake/ROB/Anyone who benefits from so much open space.
M
+9999999999
Yoshi's Island is reeeaaaaallly good for Wolf.
And naturally the most feared stage for any Ness/Lucas main, moreso than any other counterpicks. I'd play FD against ROB/Falco/Diddy over Yoshi's Island anyday.
And naturally the most feared stage for any Ness/Lucas main, moreso than any other counterpicks. I'd play FD against ROB/Falco/Diddy over Yoshi's Island anyday.
Who has it lol, I'll get it back on Saturday if I can. But I dunno how I can get it to you unless you come in lol.
Jungle Japes. We've had this discussion before. I thought we deemed that the timed damage element was a tactical advantage/not really environmental damage/predictable.
Y/N?
Bigger Edit: To be honest, I kind of agree with Arrow here after reading his post. I'd like to see a stage list with no stages banned. It would be interesting to see what would happen to the tier list with all stages avaliable for play. In that regard, you could either keep counters/normals or just outright make every stage a normal.
I think in general this would make for a funner, more interesting tournament. Obviously people would be like.
John: "I lost because of stage X/Y."
But I as I said I believe this would make things more fun for everyone.
I've got it remember? I'll probably come into Target on Saturday and give it to you (And his ipod).
Also I know what you're trying to say about Japes, but it's other things too. Falco is extremely cheap on Japes. Scrubs will tell you. It's how I beat his Dedede.
Port Town has completely predictable hazards, but, it teeters on counter/banned as well.
I'd like to address Starter stages first though. Firstly, we need 5. I think 3 starters is dangerously low (even if most of the time those three are the ones chosen through stage striking).
The following four stages need to be starters:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Smashville
The last slot needs to be taken by something. Traditionally it's Lylat Cruise, but as we know it's pretty controversial when it comes to being a starter.
I think the most neutral stages to choose from are Pokemon Stadium 1, Lylat Cruise, Delfino or Castle Siege.
Poke Stadium:
Adv:
- Nice flat stage
- Two platforms
- Transformations are mostly balanced and not permanent
Con:
- Transformations disruptive
- Creates Walls for abuse/camping
- Edges are 'gay' (Not a good reason)
Summary:
This almost definitely should be included as a starter. The things that let it down are the campiness of the transformations 2/4 times (Not a problem in Melee as it is in Brawl). Edges are only about as homo as the tilt of Lylat -> Just have to learn them and get used to them. If you don't want to face the opponent on this stage, strike it from the starter list.
Lylat Cruise:
Adv:
- Single definite platform
- Three platforms
Con:
- It tilts from side to side
- It's already 'hill' like in structure, so it makes for a very uneven surface.
Summary:
This is a traditional starter stage. Though it's good at gimping recoveries and a combination of its tilting platform and curved stage make it generally a battle just to get positioning right. I myself don't have a problem with the stage at all, but, these are quite valid reasons as to why it should be booted off the starter list.
Delfino Plaza:
Adv:
- Flat stage with varying platforms (most of the time)
- Transformations not permanent
Cons:
- Terrible transformations can be abused by certain characters
Summary:
Quite simply, Pokemon Stadium 1 is more neutral than this stage, not to mention those lame glitches that remind me of Poke Floats (It happened to me just the other day, I fell through the stage rofl).
This is just like Poke Stadium, only some transformations have walkoffs and water.
Castle Siege:
Adv:
- Flat Stage
- Varying Platforms preventing projectile camping and walkoff abuse
- Transformations extremely predictable (They never change in order)
Cons:
- One transformation has a walkoff
- Statues stop projectiles -> Whether that's good or bad is Subjective (And they are breakable)
Summary:
Honestly, if I had to choose between this stage and Pokemon Stadium 1 for the last slot on the starter list, I'd pick this one. The only thing inherently wrong is that one of the transformations has a walkoff on either side.
Because of this wonderful thing called stage striking you don't have to play on this stage if you perceive your opponent to be one to attempt to abuse this. (Every matchup outside of Dedede should be able to play on this stage without too much hassle).
Even if you do end up facing Dedede here, you can simply camp the multiple platforms and play keep away until the transformation ends.
---
Stage Striking:
I assume you all remember what stage striking is. Stage striking I think will work better with a smaller amount of stages (Or will be used more) because it's not hard to remember the list and isn't really a chore anymore to remember stages. 5 is the right number for it because it allows for reasonable diversity, without being too much for the strikers to remember.
If you don't like Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and Castle Siege? Strike em! Simple as that.
Saying that is rather subjective. Not everyone enjoys trying to play a serious match on Hyrule and New Pork City. Stages like that are banned because of circle camping, not because we don't like fun.
It's because they don't promote the qualities looked for in competitive stages and because they can be rediculously abused. Pick sonic, get a % lead, then run around Hyrule. GG.
That being said, if someone wants to run a tournament like that, I'd fully support it :D
EDIT: We could have a LOL side tournament or something rofl. Or have a LOL tournament at Bobs next time.
It's not that I wouldn't go to a tournament running that setup, it's just that I don't want to take out the time to do it myself. So you or Arrow or someone should do it if you actually do want to do a tournament like that.
lol, stage strike with EVERY STAGE YEAHUZ.
xXArrowXx
Smash Champion
2 stop the camping no time limit =D XD
It's flawed when using too many stages. It just takes too long.
I've seen this myself at past tournaments where people simply opted to not do it because it was too complicated with too many stages
With a low number like 5 I think people might receive the idea a little better.
Why is there a shot clock in Basketball?
EDIT:
It's annoying because that theory does work, and would stop things like planking.
But would also introduce situations where matches will go for 10 minutes or longer and from purely a logistical perspective, it hampers tournament progress.
We've never done stage striking with only 5 stages. Which is why we need to test it in a situation with less stages to remember.
Stage striking is there for the competitive players to use to ensure they don't get shafted on the starter.
I know players other than me used it, but the problem is that with too many stages the procedure was too complicated for some people to do.
With 5 stages you virtually have no excuse not to do it.
EDIT: Quickly Michael, 33 posts til SMASH LORD
Stage striking is there for the competitive players to use to ensure they don't get shafted on the starter.
I know players other than me used it, but the problem is that with too many stages the procedure was too complicated for some people to do.
With 5 stages you virtually have no excuse not to do it.
EDIT: Quickly Michael, 33 posts til SMASH LORD
Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
Don't you mean 22?
Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
Thank gawd for Paint.
ACCELERATE
Smash Lord
Atlantic south... Ahh No. i don't even know who that is. I was discussing that list on aib actually.
Also anthony you cant compare the stage list to character advantages on them. As you can see this list is made purely to premote competive play. Like the last M2K vs. DSF final. They went smashville every match.
Melees the same why should brawl be any different. Ahh i just hope BR thinks this way.
So what is this tournaments stage list?
Also anthony you cant compare the stage list to character advantages on them. As you can see this list is made purely to premote competive play. Like the last M2K vs. DSF final. They went smashville every match.
Melees the same why should brawl be any different. Ahh i just hope BR thinks this way.
So what is this tournaments stage list?
Why can't I? I'm not citing characters as reasons, I'm merely expressing a few examples. It would be highly impractical to take every possible matchup into account when considering stage legality.
I'm taking the nature of Brawl as a game, how it is played, it's goal, then stating reasons as to why 'x' stage should be allowed or not.
There are characters that benefit and those that don't from the existence or lack of stage elements. But as you said, and as I've kept in mind, individual characters are not influencing my previous appraisals of each stage for consideration.
Whether it does promote competitive play is entirely subjective. The Japanese Melee stage list had a whopping 2 stages. But no other country (as far as I know) have opted to adopt it. It could just as easily be said that having a wider knowledge of stages can be another facet of player skill, and be considered another side of a player's competitive skill set.
Players will do that if they want. It's a rule that players can agree on playing even banned stages if both players want it. Doesn't mean we should force it on people by having an extremely limited stage list.
Not a good reason. They are two different games anyway.
If you've paid attention to some of the different stage lists made by BR members and posted public ally, some are very liberal, or in the case of yours, some very conservative.
That's what we're debating right now.
EDIT: All that being said. I'd love to try a limited stage list tournament as well. Again, it's not something I myself am willing to make time for though. So if you or anybody else wants to host a tournament. Talk to Billy about getting the PCYC booked out and start planning!
EDIT2: The reason why I won't implement a super limited stage list (such as the one you suggested) is because I want to host tournaments that are competitive, but still offer enough variety to attract new people to it.
As I said. I'd love to compete in a a tournament with a limited stage list, so host one!
I think as long as all the Metroid Stages are Banned we should be fine.
Also i think the 4 Starter stages are good with the 5th being Pokemon Stadium 1. Castle Seig is ok but 2nd transformation kills it.
Also Stage striking i wasnt a fan of even with 5 stages im like michael and would be to lazy to do it. Im happy with a random start if you have them 5 stages on you have to play on what ever shows up. Each person should get to ban 1 stage of there choice out of the whole list(other then starter 5. Then i think Arrows idea should come into play, Who ever loses gets to pick what ever stage they want to play on other then the stages that where banned by said players. The point of picking a counter pick is to gain another advantage. Arrow could pick port town and win it giving you an awesome decider, Bob could pick stupid ice climbers level what ever its called. ill pick shadow moses and ice block lock you into the wall till 200% and **** win lol. Either way i think we should look at something liek this
Also i think the 4 Starter stages are good with the 5th being Pokemon Stadium 1. Castle Seig is ok but 2nd transformation kills it.
Also Stage striking i wasnt a fan of even with 5 stages im like michael and would be to lazy to do it. Im happy with a random start if you have them 5 stages on you have to play on what ever shows up. Each person should get to ban 1 stage of there choice out of the whole list(other then starter 5. Then i think Arrows idea should come into play, Who ever loses gets to pick what ever stage they want to play on other then the stages that where banned by said players. The point of picking a counter pick is to gain another advantage. Arrow could pick port town and win it giving you an awesome decider, Bob could pick stupid ice climbers level what ever its called. ill pick shadow moses and ice block lock you into the wall till 200% and **** win lol. Either way i think we should look at something liek this
*Sieg wins Rock, paper, scissors*
Billy: I strike Castle Siege
Sieg: I strike Yoshi's
Billy: I strike Final Destination
Sieg: I strike Battlefield
Took 20 seconds and creates the most fair outcome for both players AND is quicker than stage cancels in the long run. If you're lazy then this is better than going into a match, cancelling, re-randoming, cancelling, re-randoming, having to re-random because the stage that came up is a previously cancelled one etc.
Billy: I strike Castle Siege
Sieg: I strike Yoshi's
Billy: I strike Final Destination
Sieg: I strike Battlefield
Took 20 seconds and creates the most fair outcome for both players AND is quicker than stage cancels in the long run. If you're lazy then this is better than going into a match, cancelling, re-randoming, cancelling, re-randoming, having to re-random because the stage that came up is a previously cancelled one etc.
undead_moose
Smash Lord
TOO. MUCH. EFFORT. JUST WANT TO PLAY
shaddap
shaddap
Again, stages like Hyrule, Spear Pillar and New Pork City do not promote competitive play. Unless you think getting one hit on the opponent and running away for 8 minutes is fun.
I would sooner legalize MK's Infinite Dimensional Cape. That at least is harder to do than running away for 8 minutes.
If we're not doing 2 minute item free-for-all's then we have to. These rulesets don't come out of thin air. If you don't care what the ruleset is that's fine, but others do, and that's why we're here. This is a forum. Somebody starts a topic, others post responses.Moose said:
EDIT: I just realised what you said could be a response to Billy/Michael, but I assume it's me...
I'm feeling very defensive atm cause I'm in forum debate mode >.<
Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
Who wants a u.s copy of brawl? $30, came with a wii I stole.
xXArrowXx
Smash Champion
hmm i wonder how captain falcon got the falcon punch.. was is made during smash64 or in the anime lol
ACCELERATE
Smash Lord
US brawl and Wii? If it works i'll take it.
Anthonys response to any decent rebutle: Your point is entirely subjective. Explain why dont use english as a cover up.
And if the list is what were debating but you won't take any opinon but your own. Then why are we debating. Its your tournament post your list and lets move on.
Anthonys response to any decent rebutle: Your point is entirely subjective. Explain why dont use english as a cover up.
And if the list is what were debating but you won't take any opinon but your own. Then why are we debating. Its your tournament post your list and lets move on.
No antho what i was saying is you have no stage cancels at all. You both Ban 1 stage at the start thats all you get. other then that the first round is played out on random with the first 5 stages. what ever it is thats what it stuck on. Then the loser gets to pick any stage they want other then the 2 stages banned at the start. and so on (Y) perfect
xXArrowXx
Smash Champion
falco japes is pro lol
well as far as stage striking goes.. is it finiding stage so its middle ground to their characters or the middle ground to thier playing styles
well as far as stage striking goes.. is it finiding stage so its middle ground to their characters or the middle ground to thier playing styles
ACCELERATE
Smash Lord
Dont you mean DK japes. Dont make me link the video again.
- Status