adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Rather then continue this endless back and forth on 3 threads that are about 400 pages each, I think it's time that we established whether or not MK is actually bannable, not with arguments (yet) but with raw data.
However, we simply don't have the data required, so in order to firmly establish the data required I propose this community "to do list". Basically I am asking the community's overall help in heavy match-up discussion and data gathering in order to make this possible. In addition several things with have the beneficial side effect of helping other area's of our community. So without further ado I present the:
Prove MK Banworthy or Not Banworthy to do list
1. Make a better theoretical model for match-ups. The current one really doesn't suffice because it neglects to take into account human error as far as I've observed, possibly a great deal more. I've attempted to help with my thread on "Mindgames Potential", though we still need a concrete understanding of how often a player should fall victim to mindgames, and to what degree before it can be finished.
2. Using the new theoretical model, make accurate match-ups.
3. Illustrate based on the match-ups, that MK makes 50% of the cast +1 nonviable, independent of any other characters to ban, if this does not occur, MK is not banworthy.
4. Figure out a reasonable margin of error for tournament results to vary from the theoretical match-ups.
5. Illustrate that empirical results are the same as your match-ups would suggest or within the pre-determined margin of error. (Note this functions primarily as a self-check to make sure the theory is actually grounded in reality, aka we're not missing something). (The current Empirical Matchups thread is designed to do exactly that, so feel free to contributed)
So, if MK, based on Match-ups, renders 50%+1 or more of the cast nonviable, that makes him banworthy, fair enough.
Since this is crucial, let me define when a character makes another character nonviable:
1. A hard counter to that character at least (80-20 min would probably be more proper).
2. Has to be either:
a. Omni-present enough in the metagame that not being eliminated by this character is near impossible given the hard counter status (even if you're a superior player).
OR
b. the match-up is easy enough that an opponent can virtually pick up the character to beat you.
3. No other character fits these attributes.
4. This pattern has to be backed up by tournament data.
This is based on Sirlin's criteria of "overcentralization" and has been pretty well received so far, I would ask that we consider it as a way to solve the question once and for all, especially since it should help us gain otherwise useful information along the way.
So, thoughts?
Note: this is NOT a thread to debate whether MK is bannable, there's another thread for that. This is to deal with figuring out whether characters are bannable in generally which is meant to be applied to MK at some point in the future.
Edit:
Important threads:
As this project comes to fruitition certain threads will either be created independantly or be created by the project in order to further this objective that will be extremely useful. I will maintain a list as this occurs here.
Keep in mind that you don't have to agree with the standard itself necessarily, what portion of the cast MK needs to make nonviable and what constitutes nonviable are open to debate. What's absolute however, is that data is needed, no matter what the eventual standard is. In light of that understanding, please participate in developing the data that's needed for the eventual conclusion, data is viewpoint neutral (and having more people on this keeps people honest).
Without further ado, the threads.
Empirical Match-ups: Assists in proving or disproving MK's actual match-up dominance when completed.
However, we simply don't have the data required, so in order to firmly establish the data required I propose this community "to do list". Basically I am asking the community's overall help in heavy match-up discussion and data gathering in order to make this possible. In addition several things with have the beneficial side effect of helping other area's of our community. So without further ado I present the:
Prove MK Banworthy or Not Banworthy to do list
1. Make a better theoretical model for match-ups. The current one really doesn't suffice because it neglects to take into account human error as far as I've observed, possibly a great deal more. I've attempted to help with my thread on "Mindgames Potential", though we still need a concrete understanding of how often a player should fall victim to mindgames, and to what degree before it can be finished.
2. Using the new theoretical model, make accurate match-ups.
3. Illustrate based on the match-ups, that MK makes 50% of the cast +1 nonviable, independent of any other characters to ban, if this does not occur, MK is not banworthy.
4. Figure out a reasonable margin of error for tournament results to vary from the theoretical match-ups.
5. Illustrate that empirical results are the same as your match-ups would suggest or within the pre-determined margin of error. (Note this functions primarily as a self-check to make sure the theory is actually grounded in reality, aka we're not missing something). (The current Empirical Matchups thread is designed to do exactly that, so feel free to contributed)
So, if MK, based on Match-ups, renders 50%+1 or more of the cast nonviable, that makes him banworthy, fair enough.
Since this is crucial, let me define when a character makes another character nonviable:
1. A hard counter to that character at least (80-20 min would probably be more proper).
2. Has to be either:
a. Omni-present enough in the metagame that not being eliminated by this character is near impossible given the hard counter status (even if you're a superior player).
OR
b. the match-up is easy enough that an opponent can virtually pick up the character to beat you.
3. No other character fits these attributes.
4. This pattern has to be backed up by tournament data.
This is based on Sirlin's criteria of "overcentralization" and has been pretty well received so far, I would ask that we consider it as a way to solve the question once and for all, especially since it should help us gain otherwise useful information along the way.
So, thoughts?
Note: this is NOT a thread to debate whether MK is bannable, there's another thread for that. This is to deal with figuring out whether characters are bannable in generally which is meant to be applied to MK at some point in the future.
Edit:
Important threads:
As this project comes to fruitition certain threads will either be created independantly or be created by the project in order to further this objective that will be extremely useful. I will maintain a list as this occurs here.
Keep in mind that you don't have to agree with the standard itself necessarily, what portion of the cast MK needs to make nonviable and what constitutes nonviable are open to debate. What's absolute however, is that data is needed, no matter what the eventual standard is. In light of that understanding, please participate in developing the data that's needed for the eventual conclusion, data is viewpoint neutral (and having more people on this keeps people honest).
Without further ado, the threads.
Empirical Match-ups: Assists in proving or disproving MK's actual match-up dominance when completed.