jtm94
Smash Lord
Until someone wouldn't actually mind either stage and bans Smashville.
I have a lot of people go GHZ on me, but yeah when DP was legal here not very many went there.
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I have a lot of people go GHZ on me, but yeah when DP was legal here not very many went there.
MegaMissingno
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2014
- Messages
- 574
- NNID
- missingno
Protip: Force the other player's hand by saving those for your second ban.
Leafeon
Verdant Pokémon
Smashville is always the first to go with me. DP is fine but it's PS2 v2 feat. leaves
I've already voiced my opinion on smashville in this thread >>;
imo starters should be pure neutrals, and large/small should be in counterpicks, because that's what they are.
I've already voiced my opinion on smashville in this thread >>;
imo starters should be pure neutrals, and large/small should be in counterpicks, because that's what they are.
D
Deleted member
Guest
strategically, you're not wrong. but from a ruleset standpoint, we're trying to make a uniform set of rules, not try to exploit stupid rule issues that no one wants to begin with. we can just have 3 starters and not have to force the other players hand at anything because we can just make a rule set that doesnt suck.
Yea, but, isn't that the problem?
Like, when a character is great on neutral stages, are they still neutral?
Leafeon
Verdant Pokémon
I can't think of a particular character that is at their best on a neutral sized stage. (DK, maybe? Even then I think he does better on smaller ones.)
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And what is a neutral sized stage?
And it's not so much 'does their best' but 'does better than the opponent'
And it's not so much 'does their best' but 'does better than the opponent'
Leafeon
Verdant Pokémon
Any particular matchups where you know this is the case?
I can imagine you saying Fox, but other than him (I'm sure you've been in tier list discussion at some point in the past year.) there's not really any MU that looks like this:
Neutral is better for X, Small is neutral for both.
Instead it's more like this :
Neutral is better for X, Small is better for Y, but a large stage would be even better for X.
In that case there isn't really in-between "neutral."
But most, if not all characters prefer either a large or a small stage, and if your character seriously depends on one or the other, and then neutral and opposite are so bad for you that you are at a disadvantage, there might be some character flaws at play.
Ivy doesn't like big stages because razor leaf doesn't cover a relevant enough portion of the stage, and she doesn't like small stages because she doesn't get enough time to shoot them.
So there you go, one character that's better on medium stages.
So there you go, one character that's better on medium stages.
Leafeon
Verdant Pokémon
Dreamland and battlefield are fairly close to the same in stage size (Dreamland being maybe two steps wider), but dreamland just has large blast zones. I think Ivy would do better on dreamland vs character X (who likes small stages) on dreamland, than on battlefield. No?
I guess what I'm getting at here is that Ivy seems more like a character that likes what the opponent does not.
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Ah, I've got wires crossed a little.
When you say neutral, are you meaning 'medium sized'?
I'm thinking more like melee starters as' neutral' which includes large small and medium.
So what I mean is what makes battlefield, where marth can cover platforms with swords more neutral than norfair where he can't.
When you say neutral, are you meaning 'medium sized'?
I'm thinking more like melee starters as' neutral' which includes large small and medium.
So what I mean is what makes battlefield, where marth can cover platforms with swords more neutral than norfair where he can't.
Foo
Smash Lord
You can't really blame the ruleset because people aren't using it correctly. In the 5 neutral setup of YS, DL, SV, PS2, and BF I struck to yoshi's twice and dreamland once. I also didn't let people take me to smashville if I didn't want to go, and took people who could get severely out maneuvered to PS2. 5 stage bans is much better because it adds some actually strategy to the stage bans, and if people don't think about it, that's fine. I'll continue getting one of my 2 preferred stages right off the bat.
For the record, Nebulous will be using this stage list:
Starters:
Battlefield, PS2, Smashville, Dream Land, Green Hill Zone
Counter Picks:
Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Story, Yoshi's Island, Warioware, Fountain of Dreams, Norfair, Final Destination
They still have issues with the walls on DP preventing some characters from riding up, but I'm pretty sure if that gets changed, DP will replace Dream Land all together.
Starters:
Battlefield, PS2, Smashville, Dream Land, Green Hill Zone
Counter Picks:
Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Story, Yoshi's Island, Warioware, Fountain of Dreams, Norfair, Final Destination
They still have issues with the walls on DP preventing some characters from riding up, but I'm pretty sure if that gets changed, DP will replace Dream Land all together.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
There was a problem fetching the tweet
yo mdva why you gotta take your degenerate stage striking patterns so personally
AZ has a saying. It goes like this:
"Tl;dr, smashville."
in fact, it's our fb group photo
This is pretty much exactly what we've been running, except we replaced yoshis melee with wario ware all together.
I actually feel like fountain is a better neutral stage than dreamland, and I do think this list is lacking something because it doesn't have skyworld. I hate the stage but it's a fair cp, better than having a list that's like, 3 small stages, 4 medium, 1 large.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I can't remember the last time I started a set on Smashville lol.
The last time I remember outright going to Smashville was when I MMd Prince Abu and we split 1-1 (Diddy vs Falco) on SV in a 5 game set.
Before that, don't remember lol. I generally never go to Smashville actually.
The last time I remember outright going to Smashville was when I MMd Prince Abu and we split 1-1 (Diddy vs Falco) on SV in a 5 game set.
Before that, don't remember lol. I generally never go to Smashville actually.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
i dont think we really want much strategy from a first match thats supposed to be neutral. yes we have striking but thats much more about not having a disadvantage from game one more than anything.
i also think that the stage list is problematic because the big stages either suck or have by far the most potential for abuse. i would be much more okay with 5 starters personally if one of them was that training room stage and not skyworld, norfair, distant planet, or dreamland which are all flawed one way or another
Rizner
Smash Ace
With whatever stagelist, first strike should also get last. In 7 starters, 1221 is bad. Should be 231 to even it out.
Also I first struck smashville in almost every set last weekend when I went to AZ. Nobody knew what to do after that. Would do again
Also I first struck smashville in almost every set last weekend when I went to AZ. Nobody knew what to do after that. Would do again
MDVA's obsession with smashville was probably why there were only diddy players in that region during 3.0 tbh
As a samus, I always strike sv first. Usually ends up on ps2 or bf which is fine for samus. People always strike dreamland vs me, but I'm not too fond of it anyway. I prefer to have platforms for missiles.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
as luigi smashville really sucks and I always strike it first unless I'm playing floaties
Foo
Smash Lord
Yeah, I pretty much never let anyone strike me to smashville. I hate that stage
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
I wouldn't mind a 3 starter system if it were fair. Like if there was some magical way to double blind strikes and also it not be possible to strike the same stage that'd be perfect. ATM it's unfair to have to strike first and give your opponent information about your stage preference without having any yourself on top of allowing them to pick between the remaining two. It probably won't be a problem eventually in the distant future when the meta is fully fleshed out and stage picks are more or less "solved" but for now it's pretty bad and allows players to randomly not need to be prepared for striking in a MU.
Player -0
Smash Hero
I once messed up and when ESAM said, "Just go to PS2?" I said yes. Now I only say "Just go to SV?"
Friggen Samus missile pewpew. Only BF and SV for starter from now on.
Pretty much just depends on the MU.
Friggen Samus missile pewpew. Only BF and SV for starter from now on.
Pretty much just depends on the MU.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
why did you let him do that
Player -0
Smash Hero
I didn't know. I regretted everything.
This was my 2-3 tournament iirc though and either my first or second time in bracket. Coupled with the fact that there aren't a bunch of people in my area, no Samuses that I know of, it was a learning experience.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Who are you playing that bans GHZ first thing, umbreon?
GHZ is ****ing great, even in texas I have gone there first game multiple times, notably against Lunchable's Roy and Hamyojo.
GHZ is ****ing great, even in texas I have gone there first game multiple times, notably against Lunchable's Roy and Hamyojo.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Yeah Roy is an uncommon character I should really use common characters as examples...?
Rizner
Smash Ace
I assume his argument was more "that stage is great for Roy, so you may have wanted to ban it and ofc they were fine going there."
I actually forced a strike to Dreamland or Distant Planet during one of my sets yesterday. I feel that the current striking is where people don't truly care where they go since they just have personal preference. The small advantages/disadvantages make enough of a factor to want to put your efforts into striking properly. The stagelist shouldn't be indicated if we have people that aren't putting some effort into where they want to go. All the neutral stages have enough differences to provide different outcomes imo.
PM Training Stage is different because there is nothing similar to it outside of Smashville for a brief 1-2 seconds(?). There's only Halberd that has the same type of layout. I really don't think we're truly lacking in platforms when you consider the list of available tourney stages:
No plats: FD
One plat: SV, YI, GHZ
Two plats: PS2, Norfair
Three plats: BF, YS, DL, SW, LC
Four plats: DP
Six plats: WW
Variable plats(1-3): FoD
If anything, I think we have more issues with a saturation of 3 plat stages. 3 of them are the regular small, normal, and large stage types. Skyworld is similar to the typical platform layout, but doesn't really provide much of a difference. Lylat Cruise is the odd man out of the 3 plat stages, but brings more change than anything else. universally lower platforms with the requirement of actually sweetspotting the ledge. In my opinion, LC is one of the best large stages in terms of horizontal blastzone sizes because it gives you the feeling of a big stage without being overbearing (ala Dreamland).
The no plat to two plat list seems completely fine to me since none of them are similar in any aspect of a matchup. I think Norfair and PS2 might be the only ones that are too close in similarities, but the platform movement makes it different than PS2. GHZ's platform often becomes inaccessible during the match, ergo, it's more safe to call GHZ a no plat stage.
I personally hate Wario Ware as a stage due to it's layout and completely over centralization of ground control. Most cases, you're pretty boned when characters like Marth, Roy, DK, and whoever else takes up a lot of space go there since they can control the bottom so efficiently. To me, it's a heavily polarizing stage that I think should be taken out.
FoD is the odd man out of the whole list, but brings the variance that opens up the stage list. It just means you gotta stay on your P's and Q's when playing. Maybe memorize the movement and timing when things change. If it's on a set timer, then I'm sure that not hard to figure out and memorize. That's just stage preparation.
Overall, there's probably like 1-3 stages that provide no actual difference in the stagelist. Outside of that, most of them have changes to where things do matter in the long run, but are slow to show up now because people aren't inclined to think about what stages truly make a difference unless it's a big difference.
BTW, since we're talking a universal stage list, what about a different list for doubles? Doubles seem really scattered moreso than Singes right now.
D
Deleted member
Guest
one problem at a time imo, singles stage list should happen first.
since most people here seem to be okay with GHZ i think we need to find a 5th stage for striking. atm my vote is to ask the dev team for a larger stage with no obvious flaws (probably the training room mod or something similar), since norfair distant planet skyworld and dreamland are all pretty flawed imo
im also not too sure about lylat. the way i see the stage list (strictly subjective to me) is that BF SV PS are starters, NF and SW should obviously be banned for promoting degenerate gameplay, which defaults DL and DP to being "big stages", WW and GHZ to being "small stages", and LC, FD, FoD, YI all become more of strategic counterpicks. the issue with LC i think is the same as mute city in melee- there's nothing really wrong with it, but its kind of a jank stage that 90% of people don't want to play on anyway. the best strategy for LC is going there because everyone else hates it. not exactly the best reason to keep a stage imo.
as an aside, i also dont think we want more than 2 big/small stages of each type within a stage list limited to 2 bans. so heres where im at atm
starter-
GHZ
PS
BF
SV
TR (training room, we can get it added pretty easily, or just something similar that is a larger stage that not everyones hates)
CP-
FD
FoD
YI
WW
DP
that gives us 10 stages, which is good variety, strong but not degenerate CP options, people get to keep 5 starters, and a range of axis you can approach a real opponent in a real bracket.
thoughts anyone?
D
Deleted member
Guest
its more like there will be at LEAST 2 left, since people do salty runbacks all the time (and in many cases made the correct CP the first time, lost, and then correctly go back there again), i dont see that being a problem
i think being able to go back to your own ban is intentionally misleading (i know ive done this MANY times) and can probably go without much argument
i also agree with the idea to do bans prior to the CP choice between every match within a set. without polarizing stages and a limited amount of jank, i cant see the additional information being harmful from a strategic point of view for either player with respect to ensuring that the better player wins. so long as both players feel that the set was fair and valid, its going to carry the legitimacy that we're looking for in a standard.
what would you propose a new TR stage has that is different to say DP or DL?
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