Proposed Standardized Ruleset

[Scatz]

What exactly is jank about LC? and what's so different about WW over YS?

 

[Deleted member]

What exactly is jank about LC? and what's so different about WW over YS?

weird edges, the stage tilting, low characters crouching on the sides being pretty non-interactive. and really, just that 90% of people hate it. even if theres nothing objectively wrong with it, having everyone hate it is def enough to make it ban worthy. the stage list and larger rule set is supposed to feel fair to your average player. its okay to have a subjective element to the rule set.

i think YS falls into the category as well, it just feels really volatile, even compared to something like WW. most people i know want it banned for one reason or another, and those reasons are pretty easy to refute from an objective standpoint, but i still agree with wanting it banned. again, just one vote and from people ive talked to

 

[Boiko]

weird edges, the stage tilting, low characters crouching on the sides being pretty non-interactive. and really, just that 90% of people hate it. even if theres nothing objectively wrong with it, having everyone hate it is def enough to make it ban worthy. the stage list and larger rule set is supposed to feel fair to your average player. its okay to have a subjective element to the rule set.

i think YS falls into the category as well, it just feels really volatile, even compared to something like WW. most people i know want it banned for one reason or another, and those reasons are pretty easy to refute from an objective standpoint, but i still agree with wanting it banned. again, just one vote and from people ive talked to

FTR, a minor change to the Nebulous rule set actually has YS banned in favor of distant planet.

 

[Deleted member]

FTR, a minor change to the Nebulous rule set actually has YS banned in favor of distant planet.

yeah i havents played on YS for like 6 months. its been jank since well before 3.02 DBZ fights imo

 

[TreK]

Lylat doesn't tilt in PM to my knowledge.

But yeah being an unpopular stage is usually enough to make it banworthy... That's exactly why we have Skyworld instead of DP in my region haha.

 

[Player -0]

I like Lylat, also a pretty good CP as Marth. The stage doesn't tilt in P:M, only Brawl. People mainly hate it because they can't sweetspot.

I think it's a pretty good neutral.


Why would people like Skyworld over DP?

 

[Scatz]

weird edges, the stage tilting, low characters crouching on the sides being pretty non-interactive. and really, just that 90% of people hate it. even if theres nothing objectively wrong with it, having everyone hate it is def enough to make it ban worthy. the stage list and larger rule set is supposed to feel fair to your average player. its okay to have a subjective element to the rule set.

The stage does not tilt at all, and the edge is perfectly normal. It forces you to sweetspot other than being lazy. Even then, you can counteract some edgeguarding techniques by recovering from just under the ledge. If anything, more people complain about it just like YI's edges because they don't want something that makes a part of the game harder. If you're not accustomed to the requirements a stage has (without it being overbearing like some Brawl stageslists), then it will bite you back when you can't perform said requirements.

Heck, the previous method to fix LC's edges was to teleport people from under the stage to on the ledge to prevent mishap from ledge wavelands/etc. It looked extremely sloppy and poorly made. Now it's a normal edge, and people still have issues with it for reasons other than not liking it despite it being perfectly normal.

i think YS falls into the category as well, it just feels really volatile, even compared to something like WW. most people i know want it banned for one reason or another, and those reasons are pretty easy to refute from an objective standpoint, but i still agree with wanting it banned. again, just one vote and from people ive talked to

I just can't get behind a stage list that uses feelings such as not liking X stage for Y reasons. I don't think it's good for the longevity of the game doing that.

 

[Leafeon]

I just can't get behind a stage list that uses feelings such as not liking X stage for Y reasons.

Umm......




Anyways, Lylat is fine, but I would prefer it if it didn't give some characters essentially lazy edgeguards. It feels like another way to CP yoshi's island to me.
A lot of stages feel pretty same-y or serve the same purpose as another, and Lylat is one of those to me.
(Dreamland, Skyworld; WarioWare, Yoshi's Story; Distant Planet, PS2)
They all feel like stages you can shave off in order to save some time in counterpicking and reduce amount of bans, which is a good enough reason to remove them imo

 

[Narpas_sword]

Umm......




Anyways, Lylat is fine, but I would prefer it if it didn't give some characters essentially lazy edgeguards. It feels like another way to CP yoshi's island to me.
A lot of stages feel pretty same-y or serve the same purpose as another, and Lylat is one of those to me.
(Dreamland, Skyworld; WarioWare, Yoshi's Story; Distant Planet, PS2)
They all feel like stages you can shave off in order to save some time in counterpicking and reduce amount of bans, which is a good enough reason to remove them imo

You say lazy edgeguard, but isn't it also fair to say that people not liking it because you cant ride up walls are lazy recoverers?

 

[Leafeon]

You say lazy edgeguard, but isn't it also fair to say that people not liking it because you cant ride up walls are lazy recoverers?

I'm not talking about riding up walls, I'm talking about the tilts giving characters better edgeguard-type hitboxes such as marth d-tilt.

Edit: Not the same, but relevant.

Spoiler

 

[Player -0]

A lot of characters have a recovery option that goes (almost) solely up. They can just drift around. If you're Bowser or DK then you're boned lol (you're pretty much boned on any other stage too though so...). Marth needs to be on the slanted part to do that though and ideally you'd be a bit away from the edge if you mess up but Lylat doesn't allow that.

In my opinion Lylat makes you have to play a bit more on point than usual because you can't just crouch and D-Tilt at the ledge, you have to be careful where you're D-Tilting (kind of like YS:M).

 

[TreK]

I'm not talking about riding up walls, I'm talking about the tilts giving characters better edgeguard-type hitboxes such as marth d-tilt.

Edit: Not the same, but relevant.

Spoiler

I'll just pop in to say that the hitboxes do not display the right way when on slopes. Their actual position is where you would expect them to be, on Marth's sword.

 

[Leafeon]

I'll just pop in to say that the hitboxes do not display the right way when on slopes. Their actual position is where you would expect them to be, on Marth's sword.

Even then it's still pretty good for him.

 

[TreK]

Yup. It's even more ridiculous on YI.

The way some moves are affected by slopes and some aren't seems to be completely random or based on tech limitations at best. If you ask me, the PMDT should take a good look at this mechanic and try to decide for each ground move whether it should follow angles or not in an attempt to balance their game instead of trusting the default set by Sakurai.
The same thing goes for collision boxes and other less obvious attributes : why would Ivy be pushed back during her fsmash near the ledge, while Marth can literally step on air during his ? Is it because they thought it would help the balance of the game ?
But that's another debate entirely.

 

[Player -0]

That's a bad example because Skyloft has a convenient slope on the side part where he can stand so he can do that. Lylat has no such thing.

 

[Leafeon]

That's a bad example because Skyloft has a convenient slope on the side part where he can stand so he can do that. Lylat has no such thing.

Spoiler

I took two pictures, one on battlefield and one on lylat, to show the difference in the angle of his sword when he dtilts on a flat stage and on the edge of lylat. His centerpoint (right foot) is lined up to make his positions match. Here you can see that the tilt on lylat cruise is further down than on battlefield's, and makes it favorable for hitting even sweetspotters.

I hope that clears things up.

The tilt on Lylat is actually more convenient for him than skyloft, because skyloft's tilt is like only a few centimeters long.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

So what's wrong with Skyworld again? Its like the only stage barring dreamland that has a high ceiling.

 

[Player -0]

Spoiler

I took two pictures, one on battlefield and one on lylat, to show the difference in the angle of his sword when he dtilts on a flat stage and on the edge of lylat. His centerpoint (right foot) is lined up to make his positions match. Here you can see that the tilt on lylat cruise is further down than on battlefield's, and makes it favorable for hitting even sweetspotters.

I hope that clears things up.

The tilt on Lylat is actually more convenient for him than skyloft, because skyloft's tilt is like only a few centimeters long.

Nice job on the picture. Gives a pretty good comparison

While the sword is angled down more and makes the attempting sweetspotter to start drifting in even later, the ledge is also lower and Marth has to be considerably closer to the ledge than on BF. On BF he can poke safely so that the hitboxes of the opponent don't do anything and it hits on the tip. On Lylat he has to stand a lot closer or he has a fairly decent chance to trade with the opponent, get hit by the opponent without trading, or be standing in the wrong spot. Even if Marth does trade he's trading the non-tipper of his sword with the opponent's recovery move, which typically have pretty decent KB. This allows the opponent to Up-B again while Marth is still hit away a bit and unable to D-Tilt/contest again.

I think it's mainly recovery dependent. Some characters such as Marth or Roy don't have as much trouble with this as Sheik or Diddy.

This does put a lot of pressure on the opponent because of the lack of walls (makes it even harder to sweetspot) and Marth's D-Tilt making drifting to an ideal setup for a sweetspot difficult (does it on other stages too though).

 

[Bazkip]

So what's wrong with Skyworld again? Its like the only stage barring dreamland that has a high ceiling.

I find the layout to be rather odd, the top platform is positioned in such a way relative to the side platforms than it's a bit awkward to get to. I feel to promotes more campy gameplay for the same reason we wrote off Norfair earlier. Also the platforms themselves are rather ambiguous due to their cloud appearance, I personally have trouble moving and wavelanding on them as I'm not quite where exactly the platform is.

Maybe I just need to git gud but to me these elements make it a stage that isn't particularly fit for competitive play.

 

[Scatz]

Umm......

My apologies. Was a completely irrational response. Disregard that as it does not reflect my thoughts on the overall conversation that has went through on here.

Anyways, Lylat is fine, but I would prefer it if it didn't give some characters essentially lazy edgeguards. It feels like another way to CP yoshi's island to me.
A lot of stages feel pretty same-y or serve the same purpose as another, and Lylat is one of those to me.
(Dreamland, Skyworld; WarioWare, Yoshi's Story; Distant Planet, PS2)
They all feel like stages you can shave off in order to save some time in counterpicking and reduce amount of bans, which is a good enough reason to remove them imo

I see where you're getting at with the similarities, though the closest one to those similarities is DP and PS2. Could you explain the similarities in YS / WW & DL / SW? Because I don't see it outside of platform design in DL / SW or small blastzones in YS / WW.

So then, why keep YI in the list when it creates an even worse angle to hit sweetspotters? A handful of characters are already good at edgeguarding from their tools. So, making them a little better doesn't make much of a difference in the long run imo if it happens to the opposing character already. It's similar to DK. He can kill early no matter what stage you're on. So, using a smaller stage to make your character kill quicker doesn't change DK in the long run.

Also, I need to confirm it myself, but I was told that you can sweetspot from under the ledge of LC.

@ TheGravyTrain , Skyworld places a lot more strength in camping the bottom stage. (While it's not easy) Circle camping is possible to a handful of matchups since most characters need to double jump to reach the top platform.

 

[Player -0]

You can sweetspot from under Lylat, if you mean while in special fall I'm not sure. Would depend on character.

I think Skyworld is better for circle camping than Norfair. If there were stages for a counterpick then Skyworld would be a character TLink's first choice while Norfair would be the second I think. You have to factor in 2 platforms rather than one though. Peach is screwed on either though lol.

I like Norfair as a stage better than Skyworld.

WW and YS:M both allow characters with high fire power but poor recoveries to kill the opponents without having to deal with their survivability/better recovery. They'll die earlier too but gimps are less prevalent.

 

[Cubelarooso]

(training room, we can get it added pretty easily, or just something similar that is a larger stage that not everyones hates)

If we're going to go ahead and use stages not in the game as part of the list, we should address the problem of excessive extremes in stage length and blastzone distance - that they're common rather than nonexistent. PS2 is way too wide and its ceiling too low, while GHZ is too thin with sides too close.
I'd personally rather a normalized WW as a starter over a normalized GHZ, especially if we're assuming Training Room.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i think for the tiem being we should work with the stages we have. or we'll be here longer than the tier list thread.

 

[Leafeon]

Marth has to be considerably closer to the ledge than on BF.

that's really untrue, at the very beginning of the slope his dtilt doesn't even reach the ledge, and it doesn't really take up less space than if he were on flat ground either. He can still properly space his dtilt just like before.

Spoiler

As for the rest:
Marth and Roy have it the worst with the extra downwards angle because of the way their arms go when they do their up specials (Marth can fsmash himself and Roy from ledge unless you get a within-a-pixel-of-being-too-low sweetspot) it's actually fairly annoying, and it's not usually an issue for them on flat stages (I didn't get fsmashed when recovering with Roy [aiming for ledge] very often on say, green hill zone because my sweetspots were pretty on point, but on Lylat it's a different story, not even accounting for being able to ride up the walls for perfect sweetspots.)
Marth also isn't the only character that can use this tilt to his advantage, and it works pretty well against himself too, so it's sort of balanced, but it's balanced in a way that I don't really feel is good for the game in giving a buff to lazy plays that shouldn't normally work otherwise.

My apologies. Was a completely irrational response. Disregard that as it does not reflect my thoughts on the overall conversation that has went through on here.



I see where you're getting at with the similarities, though the closest one to those similarities is DP and PS2. Could you explain the similarities in YS / WW & DL / SW? Because I don't see it outside of platform design in DL / SW or small blastzones in YS / WW.

So then, why keep YI in the list when it creates an even worse angle to hit sweetspotters? A handful of characters are already good at edgeguarding from their tools. So, making them a little better doesn't make much of a difference in the long run imo if it happens to the opposing character already. It's similar to DK. He can kill early no matter what stage you're on. So, using a smaller stage to make your character kill quicker doesn't change DK in the long run.

Also, I need to confirm it myself, but I was told that you can sweetspot from under the ledge of LC.

@ TheGravyTrain , Skyworld places a lot more strength in camping the bottom stage. (While it's not easy) Circle camping is possible to a handful of matchups since most characters need to double jump to reach the top platform.

If you can confirm that sweetspot knowledge that would be great (I was asking around on skype for if anyone knew if the ledge grab box was tilted but it doesn't really seem like it from my own limited testing)

Basically YS/WW only similarities are that they both have walls and are small, the main difference being the platform layout. DL and SW are fairly different, but given the option between both the character who favors both of these stages would usually pick dreamland instead.

For Lylat and Yoshi's Island they're similar in that they're normal-sized stages with two different extremes on the bottom of the stage, the platform layouts for both mostly favor the same kind of character (people who can usually cover the platform above them, and also characters who prefer having their opponent above them). They have their differences (Holes between plats, the more slopey pattern of the ground on YI, etc) but you can basically play the same way on both stages minus recovering.

So really I feel like DP+PS2 are samey, and Lylat+YI are samey.
The other ones are basically because of their blastzone sizes, while each has their different nuances which make them feel different, they're mostly picked for the same reason, although I do know that there are character-specific things which make them prefer one over the other.

 

[standardtoaster]

I'm not talking about riding up walls, I'm talking about the tilts giving characters better edgeguard-type hitboxes such as marth d-tilt.

Edit: Not the same, but relevant.

Spoiler

Hitbox display does not work correctly on angled floors. That is not an accurate representation of how it actually is

 

[Leafeon]

Hitbox display does not work correctly on angled floors. That is not an accurate representation of how it actually is

Yeah @ TreK already got me on that (But he still hits where his sword is, which is pretty favorable for him even still)

 

[Player -0]

Thanks for the picture again, good reference.

When aiming for a quick edgeguard it's hard to threaten a SH and then quickly space really well for a spaced D-Tilt. So on that I disagree with the "laziness." My mistake on the spacing for Lylat, when I've played on it I haven't been able to cover their high option and then get into a good D-Tilt position quickly (slope changes WD a tad). So on that note I'm disagreeing with "lazy edgeguarding." On a personal note I don't have too much of a problem with not being able to sweetspot on Lylat without being punished.

 

[Jolteon]

I've only read the OP, but here's my 2 cents:

PS2 and Battlefield are like the 2 "super starters" imo, while the other starters are pretty debatable these are like the only 2 stages which I'd consider a staple. They don't feel particularly polarizing for any MU to me (except arguably Samus' MUs? idk) and don't really have obnoxious platform layouts, awkward ledges, huge blast zones etc.

I like:

Starters

Pokemon Stadium 2
Battlefield
Smashville
Dreamland 64
Yoshi's Story
GHZ
FoD

Counterpick

Distant Planet
Final Destination
WarioWare
Lylat Cruise
YI: Brawl (questionable)

2 bans, 2-3-1 striking.

On a 5 starter list, I'd probably knock GHZ and FoD into CP.

I think your ruleset is good. 7 mins is interesting, I always figured 8 mins was chosen to allot 1 minute per stock, but you only get to play a maximum of 7 stocks per game since... the game ends when there is one stock left. I'd also be interested in trying out an experimental CP system where characters are picked prior to stage selection, Pokefloats/RC/Brinstar etc. aren't really a thing like they used to be in Melee, so it could have merit.

 

[Deleted member]

I've only read the OP, but here's my 2 cents:

PS2 and Battlefield are like the 2 "super starters" imo, while the other starters are pretty debatable these are like the only 2 stages which I'd consider a staple. They don't feel particularly polarizing for any MU to me (except arguably Samus' MUs? idk) and don't really have obnoxious platform layouts, awkward ledges, huge blast zones etc.

I like:

Starters

Pokemon Stadium 2
Battlefield
Smashville
Dreamland 64
Yoshi's Story
GHZ
FoD

Counterpick

Distant Planet
Final Destination
WarioWare
Lylat Cruise
YI: Brawl (questionable)

2 bans, 2-3-1 striking.

On a 5 starter list, I'd probably knock GHZ and FoD into CP.

I think your ruleset is good. 7 mins is interesting, I always figured 8 mins was chosen to allot 1 minute per stock, but you only get to play a maximum of 7 stocks per game since... the game ends when there is one stock left. I'd also be interested in trying out an experimental CP system where characters are picked prior to stage selection, Pokefloats/RC/Brinstar etc. aren't really a thing like they used to be in Melee, so it could have merit.

id be okay with DL64 as our large starter except i think it's too large with respect to boundaries, and the new texture is also pretty misleading in terms of edge grabs (ive had problems with the new DL64 and i know others that have as well). im also stll not sold on YS at all and personally i think it should be gone.

im pretty sure i know the answer, but can we settle on a preliminary stage list and have the dev team support or modify it as we need to? it would actually be incredibly helpful if we could change boundaries, implement stages like training room, or set a standard ruleset within the official release version on the project m website.

 

[Scatz]

If you can confirm that sweetspot knowledge that would be great (I was asking around on skype for if anyone knew if the ledge grab box was tilted but it doesn't really seem like it from my own limited testing)

I can now confirm it does work. You have to move back to the ledge to grab it the moment the ledge grab box activates. The only attacks that can hit you out of this method is Snake, D3, and Ike, and that's only if you don't time the grab box to the moment you can grab the ledge. Snake(C4) and D3's(Dair) attacks can be teched. Ike's(Dair) attack can't be teched, but at the same time, Ike can't use the recovery tactic due to him not moving upwards after grabbing his sword.

 

[Narpas_sword]

id be okay with DL64 as our large starter except i think it's too large with respect to boundaries, and the new texture is also pretty misleading in terms of edge grabs (ive had problems with the new DL64 and i know others that have as well). im also stll not sold on YS at all and personally i think it should be gone.

im pretty sure i know the answer, but can we settle on a preliminary stage list and have the dev team support or modify it as we need to? it would actually be incredibly helpful if we could change boundaries, implement stages like training room, or set a standard ruleset within the official release version on the project m website.

The good thing about DL64, that while it is large, and benefits someone like samus, it doesn't have platforms for super easy missile cancels.

Imagine DL64 with PS2 height platforms.

:drool:

 

[Boiko]

I've only read the OP, but here's my 2 cents:

PS2 and Battlefield are like the 2 "super starters" imo, while the other starters are pretty debatable these are like the only 2 stages which I'd consider a staple. They don't feel particularly polarizing for any MU to me (except arguably Samus' MUs? idk) and don't really have obnoxious platform layouts, awkward ledges, huge blast zones etc.

I like:

Starters

Pokemon Stadium 2
Battlefield
Smashville
Dreamland 64
Yoshi's Story
GHZ
FoD

Counterpick

Distant Planet
Final Destination
WarioWare
Lylat Cruise
YI: Brawl (questionable)

2 bans, 2-3-1 striking.

On a 5 starter list, I'd probably knock GHZ and FoD into CP.

I think your ruleset is good. 7 mins is interesting, I always figured 8 mins was chosen to allot 1 minute per stock, but you only get to play a maximum of 7 stocks per game since... the game ends when there is one stock left. I'd also be interested in trying out an experimental CP system where characters are picked prior to stage selection, Pokefloats/RC/Brinstar etc. aren't really a thing like they used to be in Melee, so it could have merit.

Samus would be really happy with those starters. She would just ban GHZ, Smashville, and whatever else the Samus player doesn't like and she has a stage she's good on. Idk if that's what you meant by the Samus comment, but it's definitely good for her.

 

[Jolteon]

id be okay with DL64 as our large starter except i think it's too large with respect to boundaries, and the new texture is also pretty misleading in terms of edge grabs (ive had problems with the new DL64 and i know others that have as well). im also stll not sold on YS at all and personally i think it should be gone.

im pretty sure i know the answer, but can we settle on a preliminary stage list and have the dev team support or modify it as we need to? it would actually be incredibly helpful if we could change boundaries, implement stages like training room, or set a standard ruleset within the official release version on the project m website.

From my experience DL64+YS work well as 1 small/1 large tri-plat starter, boundaries are pretty large though yeah. Not had the ledge grab issue myself, though?

Curious as to what you think the problems are with YS. I think at minimum it's CP material.

Your latter question is probably better suited for @ SOJ

Samus would be really happy with those starters. She would just ban GHZ, Smashville, and whatever else the Samus player doesn't like and she has a stage she's good on. Idk if that's what you meant by the Samus comment, but it's definitely good for her.

Sorry, I was pretty misleading with the comment. I meant that PS2 isn't particularly polarizing in most MUs, other than the fact that it's a really good Samus stage.

 

[Keman]

I have been watching this thread, and have seen a lot of good talk about what and why something works or doesn't. Not to subtract from the informative convo, but would it be a viable idea to take a poll from everyone interested in this topic here on the boards?

I mean like throw up each stage one at a time and everyone says whether they think it should be in/out cp/neutral? (or something of that nature) Thus using those results(majority wins) to format a list that could then be discussed if it had what appeared to be outliers or polarizing stages somewhere. Or am I just making it out to be way to simple of a process ><

Just seems like everyone has their own opinion on the matter and no 2 people agree 100% with each other.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Well there's two debates going on that a per-stage poll would muddle up. It's not just a question of which stages should be neutrals, but also just how many neutrals we should have.

 

[Ace55]

This has been an interesting read so far. I don't understand the problem with YS, I'd always prefer it over WW if I had to choose.

Starters

Pokemon Stadium 2
Battlefield
Smashville
Dreamland 64
Yoshi's Story
GHZ
FoD

Well, I found someone who at least uses the same starters that we've been using lately. Now just add WW and YI as CP and there you go.1 ban.

Yes no FD, FD is a horrible stage.

 

[jtm94]

It's extremely easy to edit stage blast zones. I don't know how easy it is to edit stage size/length I think there's a way to scale stages though, but I cannot confirm that's just off old memory.

I think stage size should be taken into account. I don't like Norfair, PS2, FD, DP, and Dreamland on the same list because they are all huge stage-wise. If you play a slow character you can't ban all of those. So even if Norfair is removed that's still 3 stages that are large, but 3 bans could cover them.

I like Skyworld because it's not that bad as a large stage. It is far more reasonable in terms of stage and blast zone size, but it feels easy to control center stage and hard to get in if your opponent has it.

I like Lylat because it's the only stage that punishes poor recovery besides Skyworld and I don't think the layout of it is as degenerate as Norfair has the potential to be.

I like small stages because they feel like they benefit tight-play.

 

[Deleted member]

@ SOJ - would it be easier to implement the modified Training Room, or to edit the blast zones and edges of Dreamland 64? I think that's our best bet for a large starter stage

 

[SOJ]

OMG wow I don't know why this thread hasn't been made before, but thank you all for the great discussion. I'm still trying to catch up but it's been a very interesting read for me.

I'm the main guy who makes the stagelist for every version of PM (with discussion from my peers of course), so if we somehow come up with a standardized ruleset, I will no doubt implement it into the main build.

@ SOJ - would it be easier to implement the modified Training Room, or to edit the blast zones and edges of Dreamland 64? I think that's our best bet for a large starter stage

Can you link me to this stage? I'd love to try it out and see it for myself. If I find it's good enough I might just revamp the aesthetics a bit and it can be adopted into PM. Maybe not for the next patch but definitely a consideration for the future.

And yeah it's pretty easy to edit anything about stages...this has been my main focus on the team for years now.

There's so much stuff I want to respond to but I have no time because I need to be studying, so I'll come back tomorrow for a lengthier reply. Keep the discussion up and thanks for everyone's input.

 

[Deleted member]

Can you link me to this stage? I'd love to try it out and see it for myself. If I find it's good enough I might just revamp the aesthetics a bit and it can be adopted into PM. Maybe not for the next patch but definitely a consideration for the future.

I actually have no idea about the stage, I've seen it before but the side boundaries were walls which is no bueno. You might be able to pick up a jank version of it from @EmptySky00 and fiddle with it from there. the TL;DR is that we need a large stage with no issues for a leaner tournament play experience, so a modified DL64 would also work.

I'm pretty sure I've gotten enough feedback for a preliminary start for a rule set, I'll clean this one up and re-introduce it in the next couple of days.