Proposed Standardized Ruleset

[Deleted member]

I'm just going to leave this here as a preliminary start for what we should be going for in terms of a rule set. I've seen conflicts with stock, stages, the gentleman's clause, and all sorts of other crap at PM tournaments reminiscent of the early melee or brawl days. The basis of this will be a stage list that works from my point of view, as well as the melee rule set that I made in 2009 with minor alterations to reflect the current logistics of tournament organization.

the old rule set used for the basis can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/mbr-official-rule-set.257229/

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Stage List

Singles

Starter Stage List:

• Smashville
• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Battlefield

Counter Stage List:

• Fountain of Dreams
• Lylat Cruise
• Yoshi's Island
• Final Destination
• Warioware
• Green Hill Zone
• Norfair
• Distant Planet

General Rules

• Items are set to off.
• Stock and Time are set to 4 stock and 7 minutes respectively.
• Regular sets are best of 3 matches.
• The Tournament Host is the arbiter of all disputes.
• Blind Picks: the first character selection of a set must be without prior knowledge of the opponent's character selection for both players.
• Modified Dave's Stupid Rule: No player can counter pick a stage he or she has previously won on unless agreed upon by both players.
• Gentleman's clause: any stage may be played on so long as both players and the Tournament Host agree to it, including banned stages. This can be used in tandem with the Modified Dave's Stupid Rule (MDSR).
• Timed out matches will be determined by the remaining number of lives, then percentage of the current stock. In the event of a percentage tie, replay that match. Any Sudden Death match is strictly not to be played.

Additional Rules for Teams Play

• Life Stealing is allowed
• Set team attack to ON

Redwood Counter Pick System

1. Blind Picks character selection.
2. Stage Striking: Players eliminate stages from the Starter Stage List until only 1 remains, and the players then play the first match on that stage. Order can be determined by Rock Paper Scissors if the need arises.
3. The first match is played.
4. Winning player of the preceding match bans two stages.
5. The losing player of preceding match picks stage for the next match.
6. The winning player of preceding match picks character.
7. The losing player picks character.
8. The next match is played.
9. Repeat 4-8 for all consecutive matches as necessary until the set is complete.

Recommendations to Tournament Hosts

• Players are responsible for their own general welfare in regards to the tournament. In other words, players are responsible for:
  1. Being familiar with the rule set and stage list
  2. Entrance and venue fees
  3. Arriving on time
  4. Maintaining personal hygiene
  5. Controllers and Character Knowledge
  6. Minimizing Johns
  
  
• Sets are usually based on brackets which may be seeded at the Tournament Host's discretion. If your tournament is any other format, make a note to advertise it accordingly.
• Some kind of stalling prevention is highly recommended. Since a definition of stalling is too potentially ambiguous here, all instances of stalling are determined by the Tournament Host.
• Unnecessary delays in a set should be discouraged. This can occur before (not playing a match) or during (taking an unnecessary amount of time to counter pick) and after (not reporting) a set that has been called. The Tournament Host is recommended to keep tabs on set completion.
• No more than the previous match should be replayed in the event of a rule violation and it is recommended that any disputes be brought promptly and quickly to the Tournament Host's attention.
• When running a pool, the game count of each set in pool play should be recorded (i.e. whether the set was 2-0 or 2-1). Ranking in a pool is determined by the number of sets won. In case of a tie, the first tiebreaker is the win/loss ratio of the individual games, where the higher ratio wins. In the event of a tie in both set victories and match-up ratios, the player who won the set between the disputed players should advance.
• The semi-final and championship sets should be in at least best of 5 format.
• Wireless controllers should be discouraged or banned because of interference, unreliability (battery life), and time hindrance.
• The Tournament Host reserves the right at any time to make anyone leave the premises of the tournament.
• For all Melee tournaments, use of the character Metaknight is banned.

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I chose the 2009 rule set because I made it and am fairly familiar with it. Changes from the 2009 list include
- different stage list (different game obv)
- changed the timer from 8 minutes to 7 to reflect larger tournaments and the reality that we will often have to share venue with a different smash game. i was considering 6 honestly, its kind of silly how stigmatized it is to time out the opponents as a legitimate win condition
- my stage list only has 3 starers so i dropped the 1 2 2 1 ordering from striking
- unbanned metaknight because yeah
- 2 stage bans because we're PM

the stage list is somewhat controversial for having a low number of starters and not having Yoshi Story, Dreamland 64, or Skworld as counterpicks, but to me i cant see any other starters being reasonable, and the latter 3 add more problems than they do to variety.

lets get this worked out. looking for specific input from @ Strong Badam , @Lunchables, @Oracle, @Hylian, @Jolteon, and of course anyone else i'm missing or you guys would suggest. lets tag the **** out of this thread, we have lots of people that made good rule sets in melee and brawl that have switched to PM as well.

 

[Mean Green]

items off & none otherwise D3 can throw items

 

[Boiko]

If I'm reading this correctly, you're advocating for one stage ban?

Edit: I think my biggest qualm with Norfair is the platform height. I feel like they're at certain points too high, which encourages top platform camping.

 

[EmptySky00]

I think timing out is stigmatized because the way Smash functions makes it particularly gay. In another fighter you're far more restricted in your tools to run the timer, but in Smash games (we can use Brawl as an example I guess but Melee had it too), there are far more ways to abuse the mechanics to make the game non-interactive. Of course the only two that I can think of offhand (Brawl airdodge/ledge stalling) have been eradicated in P:M so... Idk I just wanted to give my theory on it.


I'm not a fan of lylat. At the very least I wish they would alter the background to not be so obnoxious and distracting. It makes it hard to see anything at some points and gives the illusion that the stage is still tilting like it used to because of the excessive movement. It's disorienting is what I'm trying to say.

edit: And I agree with the above about Norfair. I've discussed this a couple times with @ jtm94

It probably doesn't matter because the platforms don't stay in that position.

 

[GabPR]

In the event of a tie, wouldnt replaying an entire match set the tournament back? I though I read something about doing a 1 stock 3 minute match or something in those kind of situations.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I really like having just 3 starters. Pretty much all sets begin on those 3 stages and it just trims down on the time to start the first match

 

[trash?]

timeouts are best in scenarios where there's smart interactions. think SF4, america's most hype player times people out all the time, to the point that it's his evo moment

but the reason timeouts there are hype is because snakeyez is constantly working the opponent, and you can actively work your opponent in street fighter without actually dealing any damage. there's no similar comparison for smash games, period.

 

[~Dad~]

i would love three starters

 

[mimgrim]

I'm still waiting for the day people will realize the starter/cp system is bad and will move to FLSS instead. Probably never. But still. It does what the starter/cp system is suppose to do but 10x better.

That said I understand the particular reasoning behind those starter stages and it does make sense.

My biggest sad face is at the lack of Dream Land in counter-picks ;-;

 

[Deleted member]

one stage ban was an accident, my bad

i dont particularly like lylat either but its a good strategic pick, similar to FD and YI imo, no matter how you look at it, its a good tournament stage

 

[Strong Badam]

Stagelist is fine except Norfair shouldn't be legal and Fountain of Dreams should be. 3 starters is kinda bad, if asked which to add I would add Distant Planet and Green Hill Zone.

Few things:
1. Is 1 stage ban instead of 2 intentional? It's probably fine with a significantly shortened stagelist, particularly if Norfair is removed. Running two stage bans starts feeling pretty cozy in a bo5 set with DSR in play.
2. I'd get rid of the DSRM/DSR/Whatever and just name the rule based on what it is. Call it Double Jeopardy rule or something. The counterpick section goes through the whole shebang instead of just going "Advanced Slob Picks" and it works out well; rule names should be indicative of what they accomplish or prohibit instead of simply inheriting
3. Does this ruleset prevent players from selecting stages that they have banned? If not, why?
4. Does this ruleset allow players to change their ban after winning a second game of a best of 5 (or greater) set, acquiring more information and revisiting the stage selection process with that knowledge? If not, why?
5. Can probably cut the part about wireless controllers (classic controller bruh) or replace it with a note encouraging players using them to remove the battery between tournament sets.
6. If your goal is to reduce the severity of timeouts, I'd probably go with a 6 minute timer. I don't really mind timeouts as a viable win condition, seems fine to me. Optimal stock/time ratio would probably be 3 stock 5 minute.
7. As a TO I do these: 1 minute counterpick limit, 30 second "hand warmer" limit (unless stream dictates further delay), and coaching during sets is absolutely prohibited. I also disallow coaching between Set 1 and Set 2 of Grand Finals; the matches are considered part of a series and not two independent meetings between the players in bracket.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Having three starters puts whomever strikes first at a strict disadvantage.
The starters are lopsided. Smashville and Battlefield have rather similar proportions, while the current PS2 is radically different, being the longest stage with the second lowest ceiling.

 

[steelguttey]

idk why everyone hates norfair so much. you cant camp the top platform because its constantly moving and its one of the few stages that forces you to play with the stage. i love it so much.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

4. Does this ruleset allow players to change their ban after winning a second game of a best of 5 (or greater) set, acquiring more information and revisiting the stage selection process with that knowledge? If not, why?

I think this ruleset should allow players to change their bans, after playing a match you should be revising your strategies including your stage choices.

 

[Deleted member]

i totally forgot fountain my bad

personally i think hand warmers and coaching are up to the TO. they are much less about making a standard of play and much more about how the TO chooses to run his/her event

personally i'd say no rebans to #4, but thats more in the interest of simplification than it is to the strategic value of picking stages

#3 is still up in the air imo

 

[Boiko]

3. Does this ruleset prevent players from selecting stages that they have banned? If not, why?

I would say for character counterpicks on either yours or your opponent's end.

30 minute "hand warmer" limit (unless stream dictates further delay), and coaching during sets is absolutely prohibited.

WOW THAT'S A LONG HANDWARMER.

 

[Keman]

Yes, Please get this done. This is one thing I wish PM had. I have said it before but it can be confusing when you tune into a Tourney's or a Weekly's stream and then you wonder why such and such person didn't pick a certain stage.

All regions have different Stage lists and Ban/CP rules, and I think it would benefit the viewer experience if it were more unified even if it wasn't 100% the same every time. Even Shots Fired used what seemed to be a stage list that I had never seen before.

 

[robosteven]

I love everything about this.

Especially the three-stage starter list.

 

[Soft Serve]

Make sure theres a Wobbling Ban clause in there too

 

[JOE!]

If I'm reading this correctly, you're advocating for one stage ban?

Edit: I think my biggest qualm with Norfair is the platform height. I feel like they're at certain points too high, which encourages top platform camping.

Battlefield's top platform is both higher and always at that height

 

[Boiko]

Yeah, but at least you have access to side platforms to threaten the top consistently.

 

[JOE!]

IIRC, when one plat is high isn't the other plat low to be used the same way?

When I get the interactive stage guide running I'm include an animation button so you can see platform movement and track the positions relative to... stuff lol

 

[Boiko]

IIRC, when one plat is high isn't the other plat low to be used the same way?

When I get the interactive stage guide running I'm include an animation button so you can see platform movement and track the positions relative to... stuff lol

I'm pretty sure they alternate in four positions. Both high, one high one low (and vice versa), and both low. Regardless, maybe it's just me, but I feel like the size of the platforms, also aids in camping. I also just don't like this stage, lmao.

 

[Rizner]

3 starters gives a huge disadvantage to first ban. Striking first is inherently worse than banning second in general, and what larger starter stage lists allow is they give the first strike also the last strike to balance out having a disadvantage and also an advantage.

Also, it should state what rulings would be for player 1 bans stage x, player 2 wins and bans stage y. Can player 1 then pick stage x or is it still banned for them?

 

[JOE!]

I'm pretty sure they alternate in four positions. Both high, one high one low (and vice versa), and both low. Regardless, maybe it's just me, but I feel like the size of the platforms, also aids in camping. I also just don't like this stage, lmao.

BBox only shows the right platform, but at least it's something. I need to see where the left version starts in the loop lol

 

[Saito]

• For all Melee tournaments, use of the character Metaknight is banned.

#FreeMetaKnight

 

[Bazkip]

I can't say I'm particularly fond of only 3 starters, it just seems like too small of a pool and presents a very real possibility that the winner of RPS may be choosing between two stages he does not particularly want to go to (I'm imaging say, Ganon vs Falcon here, where the Ganon would much rather go to BF, but it's almost certainly going to PS2 or SV regardless of whether the Ganon player wins RPS or not). 5 is optimal in my opinion, having a couple of stages that are less likely to be chosen isn't an issue unless there's an excessive amount of these that it becomes redundant (which is an issue with 7 starters, but not 5).

I also feel like there's a lack of small stages in your stagelist, which obviously skews things towards characters who prefer larger spaces to work with. Again characters who prefer small stages may find themselves with a lack of options when counterpicking.

I know this may come across as simple character bias on my part, as Ganon generally prefers small stages. You'd be correct, that definitely is a factor, but I'm voicing these concerns due to wanting a stagelist where I'm on a relatively even footing, rather than one where I'm almost strictly at a disadvantage, which I feel is the case with this proposed stagelist.

Here's the stagelist I made for the Montreal PM community, which I created with the intent of striking a balance between large and small stages

Spoiler: Montreal Stagelist

2 bans
1 ban in bo5

Starters:
- Yoshi's Story
- Fountain of Dreams
- Battlefield
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- Dreamland

CPs:
- WarioWare
- Green Hill Zone
- Smashville
- Final Destination
- Distant Planet

Now I'm not saying this is perfect, but I haven't run into any significant issues nor heard any major complaints from my local community. The biggest concern I see with it is the overabundance of triangle stages in the starters list, so I'm probably gonna swap Dreamland and Smashville. I most likely will also add Lylat as a counterpick. There's probably a couple of other tweaks it could stand to have, but I personally feel it's very fair. Feel free to pick it apart however, maybe I missed something.

 

[jtm94]

@ E EmptySky00 check out what @ JOE! posted above. I almost agree with Norfair being competitively viable... but something still is slightly off with it, however, it isn't quite as campy as it was before.

I don't really have input on number of initial neutrals to choose from. I do like how having more neutrals does slightly balance out going 1st or 2nd, but no matter what the one who picks the stage from the last 2 still has an advantage of sorts.

I too am curious if a players bans stay throughout a set or not. Honestly I feel like most TOs barely enforce or even bring this up.

 

[JOE!]

Just to derail this one last time, that animation gif I made showed me that the plats do not go as high as I thought. Here is the updated Norfair pic vs BF:

The platforms start a smidge higher than the low BF plats and are like 1/4 bigger. As they rise, they end up at like a say.... Pikachu height below the top BF plat.

I think it's less the raw height and more the fact it inst obvious how they move given that they are not constantly in motion like Randal or the SV platform, as there are pauses between the points where they *slowly* move to the next position, etc.

 

[Deleted member]

just so you guys know, you dont need a reason to ban a stage. if everyone hates norfair we can just choose to not use it.

 

[JOE!]

just so you guys know, you dont need a reason to ban a stage. if everyone hates norfair we can just choose to not use it.

Very true. It's just when you toss reasons like "it's huge!" or "it goes too high!"... there's evidence against that lol

 

[Boiko]

It feels weird.

 

[JOE!]

I think its because the loop is so slow. It takes 9600 frames to animate (160 seconds, aka 2.7ish minutes) which means in a normal match, each "position" will only be seen roughly 3 times throughout 8 minutes. Given your average game is only about 4 minutes, you'd only see a position once or twice depending on where in the loop.

Unlike other moving plats, this makes the platforms here feel unpredictable as it's not a simple back/forth/loop type of motion that happens dozens of times within a match. Which contributes to it feeling weird, at least all IMO.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

It's pretty nice to have enough stages to be able to weed them out based sorely on personal preference.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Norfair has too much lava
Remove it

 

[robosteven]

take lylat and dp out too

edit: and ghz

and fountain

and yoshi's

and smashville

and ww and fd and battlefield there we Pokémon now

 

[~Dad~]

just so you guys know, you dont need a reason to ban a stage. if everyone hates norfair we can just choose to not use it.

sweet, **** that stage

 

[jtm94]

I am incredibly fond of large stage lists full of counterpicks. The only stages on the bottom 2 rows I don't care for are Skyloft and Sky World.

Lylat is shaped exactly like Yoshi's Island Melee, it just has Melee Battlefield edges and different platform layout. I don't think it's blast zones makes it unplayable and I really like that it's the ONE STAGE in the game that makes it sort of difficult to sweetspot and screws over characters with good wall jumps and wall rides. The stage honestly doesn't feel janky at all, if you SD you clean messed up.

Distant Planet is another stage that isn't that big being Pokestadium size and having somewhat similar blast zones give or take a tiny bit. It's a stage that is good for wall clings and aids wall recoveries. The Leaf platforms are semi-weird though. I think Distant Planet fills the hole in my heart that PS1 left. Without Dreamland there are only 4 stages where you have a lot of space, PS2, FD, Norfair, and Distant Planet. Since 3 seems like a good number if we cut Norfair that leaves 3 stages with decent room to move around, all not having ridiculous game molding blast zones like Dreamland while being unique.

 

[GFooChombey]

Stage opinions aside, why should the TO have to approve of the gentleman's rule? If two people agree to play on something like Hyrule Castle, that's their call.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I'm ok with lylat, imo it would perfect if that background would calm down and the ends of the stage were raised a bit to make the stage level, but that's just me.