Proposed Standardized Ruleset

[Narpas_sword]

So, i had a fiddle with SSS editing last night, havent tested the codeset yet, so won't upload the addon. but heres the stage preview for now:

I finished a quick test of each page 1 stage to make sure they are all loading,
Here is a 7zip with the common5 and codeset.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dsg87fe6759c7dn/Proposed Standardised Stagelist.7z?dl=0

Not sure if this can be used as an addon. if someone can try it and let me know, i can probably change it.
Otherwise chucking the 3 files where they belong on the SD should work.

 

[jtm94]

I think DP is a potentially neat stage. It's long, but more traditional than Norfair imo.
The sides of the stage are cool and I understand the idea, but it's just strange that characters like Sonic can't sweetspot.

 

[Deleted member]

Is Distant Planet really too similar to PS2? I'd definitely consider it for different reasons when counterpicking because of the platforms at the very least. Is there anything you guys would suggest to differentiate these stages more? I don't want to change the layout of the stage too much, but I might consider altering the blast zones a little more just to make them more unique.

they're fine as is imo. at this point all we really need is a replacement for DL64, which youre already aware of anyway. i'd call this project nearly done.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Is there anything you guys would suggest to differentiate these stages more?

Resize PS2 to fall more in line with Smashville and Battlefield.

 

[Scatz]

Is Distant Planet really too similar to PS2? I'd definitely consider it for different reasons when counterpicking because of the platforms at the very least. Is there anything you guys would suggest to differentiate these stages more? I don't want to change the layout of the stage too much, but I might consider altering the blast zones a little more just to make them more unique.

DP is really close because the leaves and walls don't add that much value to the format that PS2 gives. Taking those two part away, and it's literally a clone of PS2. I think blastzone variety would make the stage (and other stages) feel very different. I guess a new thread to discuss this? Or discuss in here after the ruleset has been finalized?

 

[Cubelarooso]

There's already an official stage discussion thread, but it mostly just deals with individual stages one-at-a-time. I'd definitely be down for a thread more focused on competitive stage design, if it's not considered redundant.

redundancy is itself a competitive consideration haha it's ironic

 

[SunJester]

We could give Distant Planet slightly bigger blastzones, so it could be the default "big" stage once we've replaced Dreamland.

Speaking of Dreamland, what kind of stage would we want for our fifth starter to replace DL?

Would we want another big stage, small, medium? What kind of platform layout?

 

[~Dad~]

I just really, really wish the slopes on the sides of DP weren't there

 

[JOE!]

As for replacing DL64 with Norfair, I disagree, unless you mean just for starters sake. Granted, it could be due to Joe lieing to us all, but using his tool, Norfair looks to be a medium stage with a ever so slightly shorter ceiling then Battlefield. All edit this post in a bit with different groupings of stage types.

*edit* Here we go. These are just the first 2 rows.
Super Small (S):
Yoshi's Story
WarioWare

Smallish (S+):
Green Hill Zone
Fountain of Dreams

Medium (M):
Yoshi's Island
Smashville
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise (L-?)
Norfair (L-?)

Largeish (L-):
Final Destination (M?)
PS2
Skyworld
Distant Planet

Large (L):
Dreamland

That line between M and L- is fairly narrow. Lylat and Norfair's main stage should probably put them in L-, but their blastzones kind of keep them in M. Final Destination is actually also on that edge as well. I feel all of the other spots are self explanatory, but it is worth noting FoD is also on the border. If you just get rid of the individual categories, the list works out to be much nicer. I still think that if you want Dreamland completely banned, it would only work if Skyworld replaces it (I would have both personally and get rid of Distant Planet, seeing how similar it is to PS2).

My most realistic stage list would probably be this:
GHZ, Battlefield, Smashville, PS2, Skyworld // WarioWare, FoD, LC, FD, Dreamland.

Thats my best shot at a tier list. I still think any list that doesn't have Skyworld and Dreamland is screwing over floaties. Think about it, in the proposed list, where would any floaty counterpick characters like Fox or Pikachu with great vertical kill power? Fox would ban Dreamland and FD, the only 2 remaining large stages are great fox stages (Distant Planet being the fairer one, but still). Maybe they would counterpick to FoD or GHZ, but I just don't see how Skyworld is an abuseable campy stage, but Battlefield isn't (seeing as Skyworld has a lower top platfom than battlefield). Even then, Dreamland has an even higher top platform, and that is being considered legal. I just think its silly. At your next local, any campy character, abuse top platform camping or find good videos showing it. I would like to see it in effect. I already have a couple examples in mind, one being from melee, but someone show me how bad it can be.

You do know I have the stages ordered smallest to largest in the tool already, right?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I would say in general our list is lacking in the vertical ceiling department. If you consider Yoshi's a medium stage and FD, DP, PS2, and DL as large stages, only Dreamland has a high ceiling. The only stage on the bottom 2 rows that is large and has a high ceiling is Skyworld. If people aren't willing to accept Skyworld (even though its top platform is lower than Battlefield and nobody complains about top platform camping there...), I think raising the ceiling to a Skyworld level for Norfair or Distant Planet would be a good solution.

The only changes I really want at this point are Distant Olanet and Skyworld swapping, maybe consider 1 ban, and Lylat. I feel the strongest about the issue of big stages though.

@ JOE! I wasn't just ranking based on physical stage size though (or how did you rank them in your stage tool?). I was ranking what I consider medium and what I consider medium and what I consider large using your tool.

 

[Scatz]

There's no legit vertical blastzone because the numbers jump from 200 to 250. Getting the numbers in the 220 range will solve that easy. Still, I'd like this to be on another thread if the stage list here isn't completed. Where do we stand for agreeable stages?

 

[JOE!]

My ranking is based on area (L*W) of the blastzones, and I haven't gone through to do measurements of every stage yet for an actual stage to stage comparison 100%

There's no legit vertical blastzone because the numbers jump from 200 to 250. Getting the numbers in the 220 range will solve that easy. Still, I'd like this to be on another thread if the stage list here isn't completed. Where do we stand for agreeable stages?

That is kinda weird, I mean here they are in order:

1 YS 168
2 WW 168.42
3 PS2 180
4 Nor 185
5 FD 188
6 DP 195
7 Lylat 195
8 SV 195
9 YI 195
10 RF 198.25
11 BF 200
12 MC 200
13 FoD 202.5
14 GHZ 204.97
15 Sky 210
16 DL 250


168 x2 , 180, 185-188, 195 x 4, 200 x4 (+/- 2pts), 205, 210, ---->, 250.

The jump from YS/WW to PS2 is 12 units.
Jump from Skyworld to Dreamland is 40.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Scatz Actually, Skyworld has a reasonable vertical blastzone and doesn't have absurd side ones. I think its the perfect fit. If it isn't, raising the ceiling on Norfair and/or Distant Planet seems like another alternative. I do agree this should move to another thread though. The "official" one by Sandfall isn't a good fit, so it would have to be a new thread.

@ JOE! Oh, that's interesting, I didn't even consider that. Next time I look at it I will see what that the merits of that metric is.

So can anyone show me a decent example of degenerate play on Skyworld? If anything, its just a sa more moderate Dreamland. My vote is for both, but I recognize I'm in the minority.

 

[JOE!]

@ JOE! Oh, that's interesting, I didn't even consider that. Next time I look at it I will see what that the merits of that metric is.

From what I gather, it overall gives a decent idea of survival rates among most MU's, though it does have a bit of bias to FLOORS which I am unsure of the usefulness of. YS vs WW matters because of just how shallow YS is compared to WW to influence survival and recovery, but then stages like FoD and even FD may have "area bias" because they have the two deepest bottom blastzones relative to the floor.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ JOE!
Wouldn't more square blastzones also have a bias, considering they have more area that ones with low ceiling and extremely far side blastzones, or do we not reach enough of an extreme for it matter.

I know we should have a different thread for this, but just show you how awful of a selection of high ceiling stages. Using JOE!'s list right there, the median is 209, putting Skyworld as a good stage for a medium ceiling height. This is because of Dreamland. However, if you remove dreamland from consideration, the median is 189, around FD height. That's also not the greatest because that leaves 5 stages with low ceilings and 10 with high. If we excluded Dreamland and had 2 stages with about a height of 220, the median would be 194, which is close to Smashville, a very in the middle ceiling height. I think that's what we should shoot for in changes. Then we can remove Dreamland from our list and instead have 2 decent floaty CP's. Skyworld with a slightly higher ceiling and maybe Distant Planet.

On a side note, can we discuss how out of date the pm website is with stages in particular. They have Lylat as a high ceiling and Smashville as a low ceiling, when, at least in 3.5, they have the same height.

 

[JOE!]

taking all those into account, the "average" ceiling height is 195.94. A Median height is sort of weird to work with since there are so many odd jumps (such as the whopping 40pt diff between Sky and DL). The average height also accounts for the biggest variety of stages:

6 DP 195
7 Lylat 195
8 SV 195
9 YI 195
10 RF 198.25
11 BF 200
12 MC 200

All hover around 195-200

1 YS 168
2 WW 168.42
3 PS2 180
4 Nor 185
5 FD 188

Could all be considered "low/lower ceiling"

13 FoD 202.5
14 GHZ 204.97
15 Sky 210
16 DL 250

Could all be considered "High/higher Ceiling"


Now, this sort of points to a bit of a trend: there are more lower ceiling stages than there are higher ceiling. Low ceilings go between -7 and -27 from "average", whereas higher ceilings go between +7 and +15ish, with the giant outlier found with DL's +55. If you strike DL, suddenly vertical KOs are much more powerful across the board, especially with the relative unpopularity of Skyworld leaving GHZ only +9 from average.


Anyways, this should be moved to my stage guide thread where I want sort of general stage meta to take place.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ JOE!

The reason I used median was I was on my phone and it seemed like a decent account of what I was trying to portray. Anyways. I will stop posting about changes to stages in thread now.

I think the stage list is to the point that no argument can really be made one way or the other unless people experiment and comment with their findings. DFW's current list is actually fairly close to ours, just with 3 bans, 12 stages, with Norfair and Skyworld being the other stages, and Distant Planet being replacing Dreamland on the starter list. Maybe someone from their can comment on Distant Planet as a starter with PS2, as well as Skyworld and Norfair impressions. I have been skimming through some videos and seeing if I can find some game play on either stage as well as look at some of the first game stages and where they land with what matchup.

 

[SOJ]

By the way you can disregard my comment about the values being wrong. JOE!'s tool is correct

 

[Deleted member]

ok, i think this project has run its course. @ Strong Badam can you close this thread? i'll be posting a new one this week

 

[Strong Badam]

What value does that have over just updating the OP of this one?

 

[Deleted member]

What value does that have over just updating the OP of this one?

i want to make another thread thats actually a first version for people to refer to more than a discussion

idk i guess it can go either way

 

[Strong Badam]

I'll lock it when you're ready to post a new one. In the meantime this thread can serve as a general ruleset/stagelist discussion thread as it has since it was posted. Just hit me up on Skype/via text when it's ready.

 

[jtm94]

Praise JOE for accurate data. He is the guiding light.

I think I have more bias against Distant Planet/Norfair than I should because I really didn't like the previous versions. I still don't like the sides of DP, but at least it isn't gigantic.

This weekend I'm gonna try implementing the new characters before stage bans CP system. I will inform all on how it goes.

 

[SOJ]

Praise JOE for accurate data. He is the guiding light.

I think I have more bias against Distant Planet/Norfair than I should because I really didn't like the previous versions. I still don't like the sides of DP, but at least it isn't gigantic.

This weekend I'm gonna try implementing the new characters before stage bans CP system. I will inform all on how it goes.

I feel that way about Sonic sometimes

 

[JOE!]

DP is one of my favorite stages due to the sloped walls messing with sweetspots on my opponents, than and the plats make it a fun time for Zard <3

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Distant Planet, Final Destination, and Pokemon Stadium are all extremely similar. While just having PS2 and FD is fine (considering how much of a difference that makes with the no platforms), adding in Distant Planet (which is also long, far blastzones, platforms in the case of PS2, etc) its just too much. If distant planet had a ceiling of ~218ish, it would be perfect. Until that day, I would argue for Skyworld to replace it. Its just so similar when you look at the numbers. I really like it as a stage (the looks, the music/sound, the actual gameplay, and what game its from).

What do people think of having both GHZ and FoD, considering how close they are. What about, I don't know, Metal Cavern as a third unique small stage (with big blastzones!, for a small stage at least).

 

[Rizner]

Maybe I'm crazy, but I thoroughly enjoyed fighting sonic on distant planet in 2.6. @ Nazo

 

[Nazo]

Maybe I'm crazy, but I thoroughly enjoyed fighting sonic on distant planet in 2.6. @ Nazo

I enjoyed it too for the most part. The stage didn't really put either side at a disadvantage, though Zelda did have slightly more stage control, but I don't think it mattered because the stage is large enough to avoid all interaction anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

requesting this thread to be locked @standardtoaster

new thread is up

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-recommended-ruleset.396408/