Proposed Standardized Ruleset

[DMG]

Yeah even in the traditional format, people are pushing for bans to "reset" each game. Seems fine, allows you to adapt to character changes and additional info as a set progresses.

 

[EmptySky00]

You say gay as if it was a bad thing

I sure do. What of it?

I'm not particularly concerned about being offensive with my adjective choice. That context has an understood meaning regardless of whether or not people like it. I'm not homophobic, I just don't give a **** about being PC to please a demographic I don't care about.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah frank that stuff has already been addressed by this version. props to a fellow sheik player.

 

[Rizner]

Curious about the 7 minutes - imo that favors timeouts more (similar to smash 4 having 5 minute timers makes a longer average set length when compared to 6 minute timers).

Also, the main concern I have with character then stage process is that extreme characters who only have a place at high level on certain stages (like bowser) will be less viable of a secondary and it's a metric we won't really be able to see in tournaments necessarily.

Such as the example with orly - he has bowser in case the stages are available. If it's guaranteed that they will ban correctly, why would he use bowser any more?

 

[Cubelarooso]

Shouldn't character balance be focused on viability as a main, rather than as a secondary?
And at high level, shouldn't the players be well-known enough that their pocket characters aren't a surprise, anyway?

 

[Rizner]

Shouldn't character balance be focused on viability as a main, rather than as a secondary?

Both are relevant right now. Viability matters all the time, but you want a secondary to cover weaknesses of a primary. If your weakness is losing on many stages, your viability for either role takes a huge hit in the proposed method.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I think it's better to try for an informed game with a couple characters that just aren't viable than a blind game with a couple characters that are only useful gimmicks. Especially for a game that's still in development and can use the data to learn what a character needs to survive in an informed (and, in my opinion, more fair and meaningful) environment.

 

[mimgrim]

Curious about the 7 minutes - imo that favors timeouts more (similar to smash 4 having 5 minute timers makes a longer average set length when compared to 6 minute timers).

Also, the main concern I have with character then stage process is that extreme characters who only have a place at high level on certain stages (like bowser) will be less viable of a secondary and it's a metric we won't really be able to see in tournaments necessarily.

Such as the example with orly - he has bowser in case the stages are available. If it's guaranteed that they will ban correctly, why would he use bowser any more?

This is why you don't allow enough bans to ban every kind of stage a character likes. :L

 

[PlateProp]

Yeah even in the traditional format, people are pushing for bans to "reset" each game. Seems fine, allows you to adapt to character changes and additional info as a set progresses.

Other areas don't already do this?

Whaaaaaat

 

[Brocolli123]

I sure do. What of it?

I'm not particularly concerned about being offensive with my adjective choice. That context has an understood meaning regardless of whether or not people like it. I'm not homophobic, I just don't give a **** about being PC to please a demographic I don't care about.

it isn't about political correctness, I don't like that either, it is about using words how they should be used, you aren't a homophobe, so don't act like one. If you want to insult something there are plenty of words that fit that have nothing to do with homosexuality

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah even in the traditional format, people are pushing for bans to "reset" each game. Seems fine, allows you to adapt to character changes and additional info as a set progresses.

I've been pushing for it since mid-2013. Strong Bad the Visionary!

I sure do. What of it?

I'm not particularly concerned about being offensive with my adjective choice. That context has an understood meaning regardless of whether or not people like it. I'm not homophobic, I just don't give a **** about being PC to please a demographic I don't care about.

It's nice to know you don't care about me, then.

 

[mimgrim]

it isn't about political correctness, I don't like that either, it is about using words how they should be used, you aren't a homophobe, so don't act like one. If you want to insult something there are plenty of words that fit that have nothing to do with homosexuality

Then the use of the word "gay" as to mean "homosexuality" is wrong. The original (and true) meaning of the word "gay" is "happy".

I just saying.

 

[JOE!]

Varied amount depending on the stage. I dunno why the value's aren't entirely correct but Magus has special magic to see what they actually are in game.

Strange, the tests I've done in game back up my simulation/equations tho

 

[Brocolli123]

Then the use of the word "gay" as to mean "homosexuality" is wrong. The original (and true) meaning of the word "gay" is "happy".

I just saying.

yes, I know that is the original meaning of the word, however that wasn't his intended use of it

 

[DMG]

WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS, WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDSSSSSSS

*Song loops and blasts so loudly that ears bleed*

Cmon gang plz get along and not be lamo's

 

[Player -0]

This is off topic but then using the word to describe homosexuality is also wrong then. You could say that it has become a definition due to its high usage as such but then that would also apply to lame definition too. Either way AFAIK it's not being used as an insult to homosexual guys.

 

[Comeback Kid]

I know this is off topic, but I'll repeat the same dumb argument as the guy above me anyway.

 

[Bazkip]

Anywho back on topic, I wanna talk about bans.
I don't think we should have 2 bans in bo5, since that'll mean 4 banned stages with DSR going into game 5, which is a bit excessive. That'll likely result in scenarios where they are no good options on a frequent basis.
I've been running 2 bans bo3, 1 ban bo5 with 10 stages in my local scene and it seems to work well.

 

[Player -0]

I know this is off topic, but I'll repeat it anyway.

I know what you said was off topic and I'll point it out and add nothing to either conversation in the process.

 

[DMG]

I think 2 bans works ok with 10 stages, 9 is pushing it for Bo5

If bans don't apply to the person using them, then that leaves 7 and might be workable

 

[Boiko]

All I did was provide an answer to people complaining about the edges. If you can't reach the spot, then there's a reason why you can't. If an opponent knows that you're going for it, they can either drop down early to stop you or let you have it free and attempt to force you to tech the stage.

IMO, it does what a CP should do without making things entirely useless.

For the record, Ness can't sweet spot backwards due to an unintended side effect of not allowing him to backwards sweet spot after shooting off PKT, I don't know why it was changed in the first place, it almost never happened, but w/e.

As a result of this, if he's hit under smashville, lylat, battlefield...any stage the he can fall under, without a jump, he's dead.

It's fixed in the next bug patch, but that's not out yet.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think 2 bans works ok with 10 stages, 9 is pushing it for Bo5

If bans don't apply to the person using them, then that leaves 7 and might be workable

Unless I or my opponent change character, it's quite unlikely that I'll be counterpicking to a stage I banned. The problem of there being few remaining viable CP stages for game 5 is obviously an issue whether you allow players to CP to stages that they determined they don't want to go to or not.

I think if we've determined that 1 ban in bo5 is fair, then it should be fine in bo3 as well and I'd be fine with a 9-10 stage list with 1 ban. We'd have more or less removed all of the super extreme stages/examples of stage CP redundancy by then so 2 bans is arguably not necessary.

 

[DMG]

1 ban also fits doing characters first imo so that the winner doesn't get to eliminate as much once chars are locked.

 

[Boiko]

DarkBlues intentionally banned Green Hill Zone against me so I didn't bother to ban it against him for game three and he ended up going there. It felt like a really cheesy way to win.

 

[DMG]

You had the option of banning it yourself. Only way it would truly be cheesy is if his ban froze the stage and prevented your own ban

There are plenty of stages I would ban vs my opponent, but would like to pick later if I don't have the character CP disadvantage. Keeping that option open seems fine

 

[Boiko]

You had the option of banning it yourself. Only way it would truly be cheesy is if his ban froze the stage and prevented your own ban

Sure, I did, and I should have. But I figured since he banned it, he wouldn't want to go there. But it was just something he did to "reserve it" for a game three situation. It was just one long mind game.

 

[DMG]

You should have hit him with the reverse mindgame. He picked GHZ, you whip out Sonic and start taunting irl

Gurantee he drops out

 

[Narpas_sword]

So, i had a fiddle with SSS editing last night, havent tested the codeset yet, so won't upload the addon. but heres the stage preview for now:

 

[DMG]

So

That stage list is kind of skewed towards big stages. 2 big starters, 2 fairly big CP's, and Yoshi's which might lean bigger than average. Idk mayne, if this is our proposed standard stagelist I am not too sure

 

[Narpas_sword]

It's the proposed list, not mine.

I still would have gone with GHZ, FoD, BF, SV, PS2 // WW, YI, FD, LC, DL

 

[TheGravyTrain]

PS2 essentially being required throws a wrench in any truly balanced starter list. The full list with counterpicks is fine, albeit slightly favoring larger stages. A starter list of WW FoD SV BF DL (or swap this out for Distant Planet if you are so inclined) would be much better, but that will never pass in DFW. I disagree with PS2 being the "big stage" though. I don't think that's fair to most floaties considering that's a solid counterpick to them.

As for Yoshi's, it is actually solidly in the medium stage grouping along with Lylat, Smashville, and Battlefield. This could be JOE's stagelist tool having bugs, but I don't think its that off.

The only way to include PS 2 and another big stage fairly would be to have WarioWare and GHZ/FoD and Battlefield or Smashville.

I will talk more tonight, kinda rambling bcuz mobile won't let me scroll down and read what I am typing...

 

[JOE!]

That stage list is kind of skewed towards big stages. 2 big starters, 2 fairly big CP's, and Yoshi's which might lean bigger than average. Idk mayne, if this is our proposed standard stagelist I am not too sure

Yoshi's Island and Smashville are more or less the same exact size except YI has a lower floor and angles

 

[mimgrim]

I think having both PS2 and DP is redundant due to similar layout. I think maybe replacing DP with Lylat might be a good idea.

 

[JOE!]

I think having both PS2 and DP is redundant due to similar layout. I think maybe replacing DP with Lylat might be a good idea.

They're pretty similar, but a huge factor is PS2's low, low ceiling

SV and YI are kinda funny in how they are both the most median blast zone sizes as well as having similar stage width and even plat size

 

[Narpas_sword]

So, If we're going to discuss the Stagelist again, we should do it structured, and try to avoid one line opinions of 'this stage is bad because...' Things need to been seen as a whole, not in the vacuum of the stage.

We have these stages which are virtually uncontested as starters:

Battlefield
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2

These Stages most people are happy with as either a starter or CounterPick

Fountain of Dreams
Green Hill Zone
Yoshi Story
Dreamland 64

These Stages people put pretty squarely in Counterpick:

WarioWare
Final Destination

These Stages aren't entirely agreeable, but have potential as counterpicks.

Lylat Cruise
Yoshi Island (Brawl)
Norfair
Distant Planet

The question is, how do we decide where to go from here?

Let's ignore any 'future potential stages' and avoid putting in stages as a 'placeholder because it may get improved later'
We NEED to make a list based on what we have now.

 

[Strong Badam]

So, i had a fiddle with SSS editing last night, havent tested the codeset yet, so won't upload the addon. but heres the stage preview for now:

This is probably the best stagelist I've seen for 3.5. Doesn't get much better than this. Maybe replace DL64 with Norfair.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Narpas_sword I agree on that last part, but the rest not so much. I think before we can decide on specific stages (or in tandem), we need to decide how we want our starter list structured. Do we want 1 smallish stage like GHZ, one bigish stage like Distant Planet, and 3 absolutely medium stages? Or, do we want 2 of the most polar stages (WW and DL), then scale our way in towards the middle, potentially leaving out "neutral" stages like Smashville because its redundant in the starter list? We need to answer these questions before we start throwing stater lists or stages because we could have different ideas on what the structure of I should be. Then you are arguing about 2 different things.

For example, if the current proposed list is being criticized and I suggest we remove PS2, most people here would call me crazy. But that could stem from me thinking in a s M M M l stater list format, where others might not be thinking that way.

 

[Deleted member]

Both are relevant right now. Viability matters all the time, but you want a secondary to cover weaknesses of a primary. If your weakness is losing on many stages, your viability for either role takes a huge hit in the proposed method.

not only is this wrong, it also isnt something we want to address with our ruleset.

Unless I or my opponent change character, it's quite unlikely that I'll be counterpicking to a stage I banned. The problem of there being few remaining viable CP stages for game 5 is obviously an issue whether you allow players to CP to stages that they determined they don't want to go to or not.

I think if we've determined that 1 ban in bo5 is fair, then it should be fine in bo3 as well and I'd be fine with a 9-10 stage list with 1 ban. We'd have more or less removed all of the super extreme stages/examples of stage CP redundancy by then so 2 bans is arguably not necessary.

i agree that it's probably not...necessary in the strict sense of what that means, but i also think its basically just better with no real downside.

So, i had a fiddle with SSS editing last night, havent tested the codeset yet, so won't upload the addon. but heres the stage preview for now:

i love it

 

[TheGravyTrain]

As for replacing DL64 with Norfair, I disagree, unless you mean just for starters sake. Granted, it could be due to Joe lieing to us all, but using his tool, Norfair looks to be a medium stage with a ever so slightly shorter ceiling then Battlefield. All edit this post in a bit with different groupings of stage types.

*edit* Here we go. These are just the first 2 rows.
Super Small (S):
Yoshi's Story
WarioWare

Smallish (S+):
Green Hill Zone
Fountain of Dreams

Medium (M):
Yoshi's Island
Smashville
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise (L-?)
Norfair (L-?)

Largeish (L-):
Final Destination (M?)
PS2
Skyworld
Distant Planet

Large (L):
Dreamland

That line between M and L- is fairly narrow. Lylat and Norfair's main stage should probably put them in L-, but their blastzones kind of keep them in M. Final Destination is actually also on that edge as well. I feel all of the other spots are self explanatory, but it is worth noting FoD is also on the border. If you just get rid of the individual categories, the list works out to be much nicer. I still think that if you want Dreamland completely banned, it would only work if Skyworld replaces it (I would have both personally and get rid of Distant Planet, seeing how similar it is to PS2).

My most realistic stage list would probably be this:
GHZ, Battlefield, Smashville, PS2, Skyworld // WarioWare, FoD, LC, FD, Dreamland.

Thats my best shot at a tier list. I still think any list that doesn't have Skyworld and Dreamland is screwing over floaties. Think about it, in the proposed list, where would any floaty counterpick characters like Fox or Pikachu with great vertical kill power? Fox would ban Dreamland and FD, the only 2 remaining large stages are great fox stages (Distant Planet being the fairer one, but still). Maybe they would counterpick to FoD or GHZ, but I just don't see how Skyworld is an abuseable campy stage, but Battlefield isn't (seeing as Skyworld has a lower top platfom than battlefield). Even then, Dreamland has an even higher top platform, and that is being considered legal. I just think its silly. At your next local, any campy character, abuse top platform camping or find good videos showing it. I would like to see it in effect. I already have a couple examples in mind, one being from melee, but someone show me how bad it can be.

 

[SOJ]

Is Distant Planet really too similar to PS2? I'd definitely consider it for different reasons when counterpicking because of the platforms at the very least. Is there anything you guys would suggest to differentiate these stages more? I don't want to change the layout of the stage too much, but I might consider altering the blast zones a little more just to make them more unique.