Proposed Standardized Ruleset

[howbadisbad]

Keep Treeland
Add Metal cavern

That way there is one extreme stage on both sides of the spectrum and since there is one each you can ban them if they make the matchup redic.

 

[Boiko]

I'm scared to say anything I thought I knew about stage sizes because @ JOE! is gonna come in here and prove me wrong with graphs.

 

[Scatz]

Dracula's Castle needs a rework. The platform design (and movement) is interesting enough, but the size & wall recovery makes it un-viable. Same issue with Dreamland, but the horizontal blastzones is the only problem imo.

Definitely don't like the idea of a 3 stage starter list. I've seen enough variance with a 5 stage starter and a little less with a 7 stage starter. The problem right now is that people just default to PS2 or SV even though their character probably get outshined by the other. The personal preference is taking over since matchup discussions haven't been going over too many stages.

I'm ok with the counterpicks outside of Wario Ware. I think it's a completely garbage and polarizing stage, but there's barely any other small stages outside of Metal Cavern, so....... (Also, wth is Yoshi's Story???)

I also would probably like to see a rotation of stages after a set period rather than a completely set stagelist. The pool of stages is immense, and we have the ability to change it up for once.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Also what's wrong with Dreamland and Dracula's size? Nothing is inherently wrong with some stages being easier to recover on for some characters, for example, stages with walls aren't illegal. The size of the stages doesn't affect the matchups as to where some are unwinnable. Also, if you really think that
it's an bad stage for you, you can ban both of them. I mean if you're facing a floatie then they can still take you to a stage that's not as large and have a slight advantage but that's the point of counterpicks.

I can understand the questionable legality of dracula's with regards to the plats, but purely on size, as long as dreamland is legal, there's not really any reason for dracula to be banned. Additionally, banning both creates a very anti-floatie stagelist which we've determined is NOT what we want.

 

[~Dad~]

Dracula's platforms are weird, but mostly I hate how I can't see myself near the ledge. It's like melee stadium all over again.

 

[Scatz]

Also, what ever happened to this stage?

 

[JOE!]

edit 3: @ JOE! can you post comparisons for all of the CP candidates against smashville? since you dont seem to mind doing those pictures, i think it will give the rest of us a much better idea for what constitutes stage sizes with respect to what many consider the single default starter stage.

http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-size-comparisons-now-interactive-download-now.390399/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The stage guide is now interactive! Download the Zip file from the link below, place the file on your desktop, double-click the "StageWeb.html" file, and it will open up in your browser!

INTERACTIVE STAGE GUIDE v1.0

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Everyone has access to it

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-size-comparisons-now-interactive-download-now.390399/



Everyone has access to it

for some reason I keep getting a message that my network admin is blocking access to the unity web player download

so no I don't have access to it

 

[JOE!]

for some reason I keep getting a message that my network admin is blocking access to the unity web player download

so no I don't have access to it

this at home? If so, see if you have the latest version

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

this at home? If so, see if you have the latest version

nah campus internet

 

[Rizner]

One thing to note about gentlemen's clause: sometimes should be not allowed for time reasons. 99 stocks no time limit hyrule temple gentlemen's agreement too strong.

The proposed ruleset only allows the Gentlemen's clause to be used to for stage picks and still has it subject to TO approval, which is really how things should be anyway.

Turns out I don't read correctly. Thanks for the heads up. Please ignore the above.

 

[JOE!]

nah campus internet

weird that Unity player of all things would be blocked on your network then *shrug*

Anyway, for those who can't see them & @Umbreon :

Spoiler

SV, YI, LY, and DP all have the exact same ceiling. YI and SV are literally the same except for the bottom blast zone.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

One thing to note about gentlemen's clause: sometimes should be not allowed for time reasons. 99 stocks no time limit hyrule temple gentlemen's agreement too strong.

The proposed ruleset only allows the Gentlemen's clause to be used to for stage picks and still has it subject to TO approval, which is really how things should be anyway.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

but is giga bowser legal tho

 

[TreK]

Hello, one of the three main French TOs here.

First let's add to the discussion :
If you want to keep that "2 really big stages, 1 pretty big stage, 2 really small stages, 1 pretty small stage, 2 bans" dynamic (which I think is very good by the way), I'd switch Norfair with Skyworld.
Let me elaborate :
People usually say that "lips of death kill recoveries", but I look at it the other way. The presence of walls buff significantly multi-angle recoveries (outside of tethers). They are able to slide on the wall, sometimes use it to walljump, and doing this increases the amount of places from which a character can sweetspot its recovery. It multiplies them exponentially, in some characters' cases (hello Fox type recoveries).
Assuming you are not stupid enough to SD "because of the lips of death", what stages such as Skyworld and Lylat do is that they limit the potential recovery routes you can take, giving the edgeguarding player a greater reward for putting you offstage.

Norfair, on the other hand, is mostly notorious for encouraging platform camping. This is a valid strategy and it takes a lot of skill, but as far as players and spectators are concerned, edgeguard is usually more enjoyable than platform camping.

Again, this is only if you're going to keep the "2 big stages" dynamic and that you do have to make a sacrifice between Skyworld and Norfair.

I'd also switch DP with DL64, for more straight forward reasons (it is much more popular).

And then my opinions on what's been said here already :

I'm still waiting for the day people will realize the starter/cp system is bad and will move to FLSS instead. Probably never. But still. It does what the starter/cp system is suppose to do but 10x better.

FLSS ?
I'm guessing it doesn't mean Foreign Language Specialization School so don't you google that for me.

wait why is yoshi's story not even legal people who aren't fox are favored on that stage
like what am I to do as ****ing luigi if my best ****ing stage from ****ing melee isn't even legal

I'd put YS over [insert any small stage] any day if it wasn't for the fact that it glitches out tether recoveries.

Using your stage list as a base, I would make the 5 starters:
Sv (medium)
Bf (medium+)
Fod (medium-)
Ps2 (large)
Ww (small)

I'd be more than down for this starter list.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

Looks like FLSS stands for Full List Striking System. I've never heard of it before now but here's a thing I found about it on r/smashbros http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2ldlgy/flss_an_explanation_of_the_full_list_striking/

 

[mimgrim]

FLSS ?
I'm guessing it doesn't mean Foreign Language Specialization School so don't you google that for me.

Full list stage striking.

Well technically full legal list stage striking is more accurate but FLSS looks better the FLLSS.

Because for the first match you just strike from the full legal stage list instead of having a starter/cp distinction.

The whole entire idea of the starter/cp system is to give the most fair fight for the first match but because of arbitrary bias on what contributes to be a starter or not (seriously, if a stage isn't good enough to be a starter then why is it good enough to be a CP? any reasoning as to why is completely arbitrary) whereas FLSS is only limited by the full stage list. FLSS basically gives a significantly higher chance of the first match being more fair for the characters because their is a better chance of them going to a neutral stage against each other. The ideal stage number in Project M for FLSS would probably be 9 stages because you can do 3 small, 3 medium, and 3 big that way. Next would be 15 for 5 small, 5 medium, and 5 big. But that, honestly, is overkill on amount of stages.

The ideal amount of starter stages is 9 because, again, of the 333 thing. Which at that point FLSS just makes more sense.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

How does FLSS work for games after game 1? Is it just like normal where the winner gets a few bans and then loser gets to pick from the remaining legal stages?

 

[mimgrim]

How does FLSS work for games after game 1? Is it just like normal where the winner gets a few bans and then loser gets to pick from the remaining legal stages?

Yes. Games pass Game 1 go through the normal CPing process (ban(s) included) with the full legal list of stages.

Though really only 1 stage ban should ever be allowed no matter how big the stage list is. :L

 

[MegaMissingno]

What if we keep the large CP list, including both Dream Land and Dracula's, but give players one more ban?

 

[Deleted member]

to clarify, gentleman's clause was something i made up ages ago. it affects ONLY stage choice. it does not affect timer, items, or anything else in the rule set.

and thanks @ JOE!

 

[Strong Badam]

okay so what would you make #5? i dont think this is obvious btw, no sarcasm

Either DP or FoD.

 

[Juushichi]

I would likely do this:


Sv (medium)
Bf (medium+)
Fod (medium-)
Ps2 (large)
Ww (small)

but replace WW probably with GHZ.

 

[JOE!]

FoD is icky

 

[Deleted member]

i agree that the fifth stage choices are icky, but then i also think ghz is icky, hence my vote for 3 starters. again though im only one vote here

 

[MegaMissingno]

If you don't like GHZ just strike it, that's the whole point. 5 is the fairest number, 3 is no good.

 

[JOE!]

I just think FoD is janky in general with the way the plats work. Especially when they stop people running/whatever.

Honestly GHZ fills the same sort of niche in a way:

Walled stage with a smaller main platform, close sides tall ceiling and variable platforms.

 

[Leafeon]

I feel like I am the only person in the world that feels like PS2 should be more of a counterpick than anything.

I was going to move it to counterpicks in exchange with GHZ, but Jolt wasn't having it :[

ghz's blast zones and the fact that it has a platform make it wayyyy different than fd

basically this

Also, if you really think that it's an bad stage for you, you can ban both of them. I mean if you're facing a floatie then they can still take you to a stage that's not as large and have a slight advantage but that's the point of counterpicks.

I actually dislike the notion of being able to just ban what my opponent likes so that the counterpick is either neutral or in my favor.

@Umbreon do you think that you can add that character selection happens before stage counterpick? I find it kind of unfair that it's possible to essentially "double-counterpick" someone on your own win.

>Ban stages that don't really matter, when the opponent takes me to a stage that's bad for my character and decent for theirs, switch to a character that beats theirs AND works well on that stage.

Ex: play Roy game one, win. Ban Lylat, and smashville. The opponent takes me to dreamland. Now I switch characters to say, Zelda, and it's my counterpick stage suddenly.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Why is choosing stage before characters right for PM?

It goes both ways in Leafeon's scenario: A counterpick might be too powerful, or it might be reversed; either way leads to an unrepresentative match.
This game has a huge cast of viable characters, covering a wide variety of strengths and weaknesses. You never know just which ones your opponent might pick, and you have no definite influence over that decision. Yet you're likely only proficient with a couple, so it's not like you can just respond with anything.
On the other hand, everyone always knows which stages are on the table, and both players get a say in what's chosen.
It makes sense to me to save the real choices until after both players have more information. A player making an uninformed decision isn't too different from rolling a die, and I don't think having an inside scoop on other competitors is a particularly important skill to test. A player pulling out a secret weapon can be pretty hype, but it's not a sustainable strategy and shouldn't outweigh the actual gameplay.


For that matter, why the banning system? Predicting which stage one's opponent might want is a worthwhile skill, but its current value seems a bit disproportionate for what comes down to a menu option.
Why not have the loser choose a small pool of stages (let's say 3), then the winner selects one? I think this would actually speed things up, as it should take less time to decide what one likes than what one's opponent likes, and it's probably healthier for player satisfaction. Compared to the OP's system, the match would ideally (IE, assuming perfect insight from both players before any choices are made) wind up on the same stage, yet only 1 out of 55 ban-combinations (few of which one would realistically pick, but still) allow that. If giving the winner a more equal say can actually make the counterpick favor them, then that's a fault in the game's balance that should be recognized and addressed.


We should analyze every aspect of rulesets that were made for other games, and see if they really are right for PM.

 

[Player -0]

If discussing stages I propose having two details noticed for the size. First, the actual stage size. Second, how far the blastzones are from the stage. This would be accomplished by having a comma and then the blastzone information.

Ex:
Metal Cavern (Small, Large)

This would allow for more clarification when people mean big or small. I see a lot of "That stage is actually small!" when sometimes the blastzones make it big.

_________________________________________
Also @ Cubelarooso You should know the MU's for your character and if they pick a character that also does well on the stage since you focus on one character you should do better.

 

[Bazkip]

If discussing stages I propose having two details noticed for the size. First, the actual stage size. Second, how far the blastzones are from the stage. This would be accomplished by having a comma and then the blastzone information.

Ex:
Metal Cavern (Small, Large)

This would allow for more clarification when people mean big or small. I see a lot of "That stage is actually small!" when sometimes the blastzones make it big.

_________________________________________
Also @ Cubelarooso You should know the MU's for your character and if they pick a character that also does well on the stage since you focus on one character you should do better.

Should be three, ceiling and side blast zones should get separate designations.

 

[Cubelarooso]

By the way, here's the stage comparisons in numeric form.
Averages were taken when it's not homogeneous, but they don't change things much. Most notable position was used for certain stages.

 

[Deleted member]

Also, what ever happened to this stage?

can we get a size comparison for this? all of our big stages suck.

 

[Foo]

Also, what ever happened to this stage?

I could be wrong, but isn't that just smashville?

 

[Scatz]

It replaces the WiFi room. I haven't seen a 3.5 remake, but the design is something worth considering since it looks more authentic to PM, and could be of.more use to the starter list.

 

[jtm94]

I think there are more creative stages that have more to offer than the PM training room stage. I think we already have an issue of stages that 1. lack platforms and 2. share many similarities.

 

[DMG]

Big stages should get buffs to be more uh cool or something. Nerf big stages and make Warioware not cray cray

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Smashville and Battlefield have the same base platform with different platform layouts. That's why I think it should be Battlefield and PS2 in starters. For the others I would have GHZ and WW as small stages and Dreamland/Skyworld for the other big one (PS2 being fairly big...). For counterpicks I would have FD, FoD, Skyworld/Dreamland, Smashville, and Lylat.

Just kind of came up with this on the spot. I think PS2 is a lot bigger than people realize (thank you based JOE!), just a low ceiling. Let me know what you think. CP's have a lot less thought than starters.

 

[DMG]

Like Ripple mentioned, I would make starter lists focus on medium stages more than small or big. If you want a balance between stage sizes, fine, but don't make the lists like 1 medium stage and then extremities. Do 3 mediums and 2 small + 2 big. Might be better method of balance

 

[Deleted member]

every set i played today, the person to strike first got rid of distant plant, and then the other player got rid of green hill zone, and THEN they basically just did 3 starter stage striking backwards. aka the 1 2 2 1 just became 2 1. i'm not very convinced on the 5 starter thing. no one ever strikes smashville or PS2 or BF. it's like both people knock off DP and GHZ and then say "i dont care whatever". opinions?