Proposed Standardized Ruleset

[Kidneyjoe]

You had me at 3 starters.

 

[Bazkip]

I am incredibly fond of large stage lists full of counterpicks. The only stages on the bottom 2 rows I don't care for are Skyloft and Sky World.

Skyloft is on page 2 now.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

just so you guys know, you dont need a reason to ban a stage. if everyone hates norfair we can just choose to not use it.

this is really degenerate though

I don't see any reason to have a stage not be legal without proof of having game-breaking traits simply because the majority dislikes it

#legalizemetalcavern

 

[Deleted member]

the point of a standardized rule set is so that everyone in attendance agrees that the results are valid and that the event feels "competitive" in a general way. if everyone felt like hyrule temple was the only real stage with which to test your skills, then there would be no problem keeping it legal. this is the mentality behind the gentleman's clause- if you and your opponent are both fine with fourside, who am i to tell you otherwise?

this is also my stance on norfair. frankly, i hate it, i just wanted to propose something as a starting point to the general public. the 2009 MBR rule set that i posted was very much just my rule set and a bunch of other respected people rubber stamped it. i would rather not repeat that here. personally, any stage that makes sonic/fox less stupid is absolutely fine in my book, but im not here to push my morals (or lack-thereof) onto anyone else

 

[trash?]

remember, you don't need game-breaking traits to get tossed out in PM. the pool of good enough stages is mighty oversaturated, cutting down means you're taking off some very legitimate stages.

a stage doesn't need to be broken to be banned, it just needs to be both iffy/weird, and it needs to have enough stages that aren't as iffy/weird to replace it. in melee, PS1 doesn't have many stages less weird/iffy than it, but in PM, there's so many stages better than it that you could make several stage lists on their own

 

[Scuba Steve]

I actually like Norfair as Falcon. There's room to run around, Falcon has good enough vertical mobility to make good use of the platforms in any transformation, and it's got a little wall to walljump off of

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

and in melee, ps1 favors fox

let's see, stages that are comparable to metal caven that are small, that favor bowser (a character that is not fox or sonic and has some troubles in the current metagame):
warioware
maybe fod

and mayyyybe ghz but the occasional lack of reliable platforms can put bowser in a pickle

two of which can be banned under a two ban system

thus bowser has no reliable counterpicks, aside from mayyyybe yoshi's
and what's the point of counterpicks if they don't offer you a stage that's at least slighly in your favor

meanwhile fox can counterpick smashville, ps2, yoshi's, and probably dp or norfair and have a stage that at least slightly favors him

I mean at this point it's almost a 100% chance that fox is going to have a favorable ****ing starter

also why 3 starters and not five
I honestly think dreamland (large stage) and yoshi's/ghz/fod (smaller stage size, not blastzone-wise) is starter material

#legalizemetalcavern

wait why is yoshi's story not even legal people who aren't fox are favored on that stage
like what am I to do as ****ing luigi if my best ****ing stage from ****ing melee isn't even legal

 

[JOE!]

FoD isn't a small stage... Why do people say it is?

 

[trash?]

aside from mayyyybe yoshi's

one of the smallest stages in the game just might be pretty alright for a guy that takes up a third of it?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

FoD isn't a small stage... Why do people say it is?

in terms of stage size as in area you can walk on not blastzones

one of the smallest stages in the game just might be pretty alright for a guy that takes up a third of it?

under umbreon's system yoshi's story isn't even legal I was talking about yoshi's island

 

[JOE!]

Its only a bit thinner than BF, and bigger than ys/ww/ghz. I guess by definition it is "small" But it seems more mid to me

 

[steelguttey]

why do people think 3 neutrals is a good idea

the person who bans second has a 66% to get the stage he wants and if you know what stage your opponent wants thats a 100% chance you arent going to that stage

it isnt a good idea

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Its only a bit thinner than BF, and bigger than ys/ww/ghz. I guess by definition it is "small" But it seems more mid to me

alright I stand corrected
that's even less of an advantage for a counterpicking bowser

 

[MegaMissingno]

Why is everyone so in favor of three starters? I'm not understanding the appeal at all here. I see all these posts saying "yay three starters" but not one person can explain what's good about that?

All I'm seeing is a huge disadvantage to whoever strikes first. 5 is the fairest number.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Why is everyone so in favor of three starters? I'm not understanding the appeal at all here. I see all these posts saying "yay three starters" but not one person can explain what's good about that?

All I'm seeing is a huge disadvantage to whoever strikes first. 5 is the fairest number.

I'd rather see 4 maybe 5
I very much so like the idea of a smaller stage list, and it's about time something like this came up.
I think we can whittle down the CPs.

Any chance we could remove DP from this list( or at least replace it with a different stage?), since we already have Yi? Don't those stages serve similar purposes?

Just for future arguments about stage sizes and such. Could be posted in the OP, just to make things go smoother.

Spoiler: stage size comparison by JOE

http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-size-comparisons-now-interactive-download-now.390399/[/spoiler]

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I'd rather see 4 maybe 5
I very much so like the idea of a smaller stage list, and it's about time something like this came up.

why

 

[Deleted member]

we can do five starters but im currently under the impression that we know exactly which two will be banned first. if you guys want five then sure whatever

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

Why no Dreamland 64? :<

EDIT: It's a great stage with huge blastzones in both directions and tons of offstage space. Meaning that it's one of the few stages where you can counterpick against characters with short distance recoveries. The gameplay on this stage is generally slower and less intense, but banning this stage alongside Skyworld gives characters like Peach and Samus essentially no stages where they can fully utilize their character's strengths.

 

[JOE!]

@ Hinichii.ez.™ , YI is smaller in both width of blast zones and significant smaller stage sizes than DP

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

@ Hinichii.ez.™ , YI is smaller in both width of blast zones and significant smaller stage sizes than DP

hmm
I was just thinking since each one was a pillar stage and a heavy platform presence, they weren't to different. Didn't really include size when I was thinking about it.

 

[MegaMissingno]

I'd rather see 4 maybe 5

Okay, but can you give any reason why that's better? You didn't really answer my question.

Also, I'd say 4 is even worse than 3, because one player gets to strike twice while the other only gets to strike once.

 

[Strong Badam]

we can do five starters but im currently under the impression that we know exactly which two will be banned first. if you guys want five then sure whatever

I think even if the other two are banned first 90% of the time (I think that's being generous with the percentage, as well), the value they add to balancing the stage striking process is significant. If two players go "Okay, Green Hill Zone is the least polarizing stage to start on for game 1," after striking BF, PS2, and Smashville, who are we to argue? Certainly, there are rapidly diminishing returns on adding further stages past 5 to the starter list, but I don't think it's so immediately small that 5 isn't worth it.

 

[jtm94]

I kind of agree on the 5 thing. 3 feels too small and we have a plethora of solid stages. 5 doesn't really add that much time to anything and just feels better to have like 5 neutrals and 5 CPs instead of 3 neutrals and then 7 CPs.

My 2 cents on Dreamland... The stage has a lot to offer some characters and in most MUs it will heavily benefit 1 character vs other stages that give an advantage to one character, but it doesn't feel unfair. So you play Samus on like battlefield for instance... Unless you have a knee, or strong upthrow, she will typically live to as high as 130%. Take her to Dreamland and she will live exponentially longer and all of a sudden she's unKOable and can always recover assuming good DI. The small stages are Yoshi's Melee, Warioware, and GHZ while the only truly large stage is Dreamland. What I'm trying to say is that Dreamland as a large stage is incredibly larger where as the other large stages by comparison are moderately smaller. We have stages that more subtly fill the role of larger blast zones like Skyworld for ceiling and FD for sides without being so large you just always live. I feel there is an importance in having stages with large blast zones, but with Dreamland being the only one makes it incredibly easy to strike when you can see it as a potential CP.

 

[Strong Badam]

Dreamland is far too large. The ban criteria becomes very obviously inconsistent if you ban Dracula's Castle (has been banned pretty consistently since 3.0's release in late 2013) for being "too large" but leave Dreamland, a bigger stage with larger blastzones, legal.

 

[jtm94]

Dreamland is far too large. The ban criteria becomes very obviously inconsistent if you ban Dracula's Castle for being "too large" but leave Dreamland, a bigger stage with larger blastzones, legal.

I agree with this. Keeping Dreamland legal with how disproportionately large it is makes arguing for other huge stages such as Dracula's an issue. Large stages(like Dreamland) only make gameplay feel tedious instead of tight and is an easy target for bans in a game with a much larger cast of playable heavy characters with better recoveries. This is not shots at PM, just the result of a balanced cast.

In Melee on Dreamland Fox still manages to KO you early via an edge scenario, Upsmash, or uthrow uair while he himself dies early from being edge guarded. If more characters like Yoshi, Samus, Puff, and Link saw more successful play, Dreamland would be viewed in a different light.

 

[Leafeon]

I hate the idea that on Smashville, walk-off situations can, have, and will likely continue to happen. Otherwise, it adds delays in the match in which one player may camp on the platform hoping to abuse it as such while the other player refuses to approach (PS1 Canyon syndrome). It also heavily favors characters with falling projectiles like mario's fireballs or pikachu's thunderjolts. I think Fountain of Dreams is actually a better neutral stage than it, and if I had my way would remove Smashville from the stagelist entirely.

This is what I think my stagelist would look like:

Spoiler

Starters:
Pokemon Stadium 2
Battlefield (Would prefer melee's, but...)
Fountain of Dreams

CPs :
Green Hill Zone
Yoshi's Island
Warioware
Final Destination
Dreamland 64

1 ban

I think it's been said that dreamland is too large for what we've got going now, gonna wait on hearing some more thoughts on it

 

[Juushichi]

I feel like I am the only person in the world that feels like PS2 should be more of a counterpick than anything.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Dreamland is far too large. The ban criteria becomes very obviously inconsistent if you ban Dracula's Castle (has been banned pretty consistently since 3.0's release in late 2013) for being "too large" but leave Dreamland, a bigger stage with larger blastzones, legal.

this is why dracula's should also be legal *shrug*

 

[Frost | Odds]

I feel like I am the only person in the world that feels like PS2 should be more of a counterpick than anything.

Nope, that stage is a cancer and should be destroyed with extreme prejudice and fire (imported from Norfair)

edit: uh, no offense to whoever made it. That thing just promotes so much camping and degenerate BS, I really can't stand it; and DP is basically exactly the same thing so I'm basically forced to use 2/3 bans on the same stage.

 

[Foo]

So, is it agreed that three starters is never gonna happen? Cause I hope so. 5 starts doesn't really take any longer and it's just better.

imo, 5 starters shouldn't be the 5 most neutral stages. I really like the idea of having 2 oppositely polarized stages, and then 3 neutrals. For instance, one tournament I played at had dreamland and yoshi's story as neutrals. Since those are so obviously polarized in opposite directions, they will get instantly banned in games where that's relevant. However, it leaves more variety for matchups where stages like that are fairly neutral. However, people will still almost always strike to smashville, ps2 or battlefield.

As for counter picks, I think I like 5 counters and 5 starters better, for a total list of 10 stages. The stage I'd probably take off is distant planet. It really is just "ps2 two: special leaf addition" and the leafs are kinda dumb and annoying. There's some really dumb interactions that happen because of the drooping (like having to delay fall through aerials, and I"m pretty sure they block stuff like pk thunder). Doesn't really add anything to the list imo. Floaties already have enough to work with, having PS2, Dreamland and norfair, while the small stages only get WW, and GHZ with everything else being fairly middle in terms of blast zones, while offering good variety of platform setups and such. Actually, put back in yoshi's and take out lylat.

(side note, about dracula's: GOD NO PLS NO HOLY **** NONONONONOO.THAT STAGE IS SO DUMB THERE IS MORE THAN BLAST ZONES THOSE PLATFORMS MADE ME WANT TO KILL MYSELF IF I GOT TOOK TO THAT STAGE IN TOURNAMENT I"D PROBABLY JUST GIVE THEM THE GAME)

Also, other things:

Why 7 minute time? I thought literally everywhere used 8, so why the change to 7? If you are trying to make a universal list, seems to make sense to stick with some of the rules that are already universal. I don't think I've ever played a game that went down to the last minute anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter.

Overall, I really don't like this ruleset.

 

[Rizner]

Using your stage list as a base, I would make the 5 starters:
Sv (medium+)
Bf (medium)
Fod (medium-)
Ps2 (large)
Ww (small)

Then have yoshi's story added in as a counter pick.

 

[Boiko]

At Nebulous we're running Dream Land over Distant Planet until its walls are fixed. I personally like Dream Land as a Ness/Samus dual main. It's basically needed against Marth because if he has two or three bans otherwise he can seriously eliminate my options.

 

[Rizner]

Also I would suggest making bans last, sop you can't pick somewhere you've banned, but realistically I'd just be happy if it were addressed and written down in the ruleset

 

[MonkUnit]

At Nebulous we're running Dream Land over Distant Planet until its walls are fixed. I personally like Dream Land as a Ness/Samus dual main. It's basically needed against Marth because if he has two or three bans otherwise he can seriously eliminate my options.

What is wrong with DP's walls?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I remember there are/were some characters like zard, pit, mk and maybe a few more, that could glide er w/e and warp onto the stage. Idk if that's what he is talking about tho.

 

[Boiko]

What is wrong with DP's walls?

I'm not too sure since I never play on the stage, so I'll double check with Gallo to confirm, but I believe some characters get stuck on the slants similar to how Zelda can't ride the wall in Warioware.

 

[Binary Clone]

As much as I enjoy playing on Dracula's, I definitely do not think it should be legal by any means.

It's massive, tall, with wide blast zones, and walls. That means many characters with walljumps that already have good recoveries have an even greater boost. Characters like Ike then pretty much never die with good DI since they can recover low and use a walljump.

And I also agree with the statements about large blast zones.

 

[JOE!]

Here's a crappy pic, but just for an idea:

The smaller red box is Dreamland's borders.


EDIT:

Using your stage list as a base, I would make the 5 starters:
Sv (medium)
Bf (medium+)
Fod (medium-)
Ps2 (large)
Ww (small)

Then have yoshi's story added in as a counter pick.

Small fix, BF is bigger than SV

 

[Deleted member]

I think even if the other two are banned first 90% of the time (I think that's being generous with the percentage, as well), the value they add to balancing the stage striking process is significant. If two players go "Okay, Green Hill Zone is the least polarizing stage to start on for game 1," after striking BF, PS2, and Smashville, who are we to argue? Certainly, there are rapidly diminishing returns on adding further stages past 5 to the starter list, but I don't think it's so immediately small that 5 isn't worth it.

okay so what would you make #5? i dont think this is obvious btw, no sarcasm

edit: frankly i dont even like GHZ as a starter because its too similar to FD strategically. it was a miracle or perhaps a display of ignorance that FD stayed a starter in melee for years.

edit 2: if two players say that they want to strike to a stage outside of the starter list, that falls under gentlemans clause imo. there might be a good reason for 5 starts like balancing sizes as others have mentioned but your argument can be taken well outside of the bounds for what anyone would consider a reasonable starter. just something to keep in mind.

edit 3: @ JOE! can you post comparisons for all of the CP candidates against smashville? since you dont seem to mind doing those pictures, i think it will give the rest of us a much better idea for what constitutes stage sizes with respect to what many consider the single default starter stage.

 

[steelguttey]

ghz's blast zones and the fact that it has a platform make it wayyyy different than fd