Project M - Yoshi matches

[TomBoComBo]

I saw that post you made on my video thanks for that. Now i have a counter attack for lucas.

No prob. Lucas has a weight to him that makes him easy to string combos on.

 

[Deviljho]

Entirely too much fair. Fair should be your least used aerial, honestly. If you wanna hit stuff in front of you, you should usually nair. Fair is for spiking offstage, or setting up tech chases on airborne opponents, it's not a good default followup or approach. The grabs at the beginning of game1 were good, do more of that, but follow up with djc uairs instead of going for fairs. Grabs are the bane of Bowser's existence, and Yoshi's grab game is too good for him to handle.

You also use too much downb. It's a habit I catch myself doing a lot too, but it's soooo easy to punish. Honestly, only use it if you think you really need to touch the ground NOW. In terms of actually trying to hit opponents below you, there are much better options. You really shouldn't try to hit anyone with it unless you know they're committed to something you will beat, and most characters can beat you with a well spaced uair.

I feel like all of Yoshi's aerials should be used equally as much, but all but bair should be used when it's right. Bair is a very nice combo starter and a nice move to keep combos goin, but again, only when it's appropriate.

 

[Deviljho]

Hey guys, I recorded a match of me VS a LVL 9 CP Zelda (I'll try to get matches up of me playing actual people sometime lol).

This isn't me at my best. I know that. At some points I just stood there and didn't react fast enough to act at my full potential. I missed some combos, and there were just some bad moments in there. I promise I play better usually. XD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOaJ8PujO-c&feature=youtu.be

CC me if ya'll want to. I'd love to hear your feed back. 'Sepcially if you guys see some things like idiosyncrasies that I have that are harmful.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I feel like all of Yoshi's aerials should be used equally as much, but all but bair should be used when it's right. Bair is a very nice combo starter and a nice move to keep combos goin, but again, only when it's appropriate.

"using every aerial equally" and "only using them when it's appropriate" don't mean the same thing at all. Of all Yoshi's aerials, Fair has the fewest situations where it's the best option, therefore it should be used the least. Nair and Bair have tons of situations where they are the best option, and Uair is the best option in pretty much any situation where the opponent is above you.

 

[TomBoComBo]

"using every aerial equally" and "only using them when it's appropriate" don't mean the same thing at all. Of all Yoshi's aerials, Fair has the fewest situations where it's the best option, therefore it should be used the least. Nair and Bair have tons of situations where they are the best option, and Uair is the best option in pretty much any situation where the opponent is above you.

I feel that you can approach with a late Fair and Lcancel it before the hitboxes even come out to force your opponent to shield, then you get a free grab or shield pressure. I've used it a good amount and it's very handy for mindgames like that

 

[TomBoComBo]

Hey guys, I recorded a match of me VS a LVL 9 CP Zelda (I'll try to get matches up of me playing actual people sometime lol).

This isn't me at my best. I know that. At some points I just stood there and didn't react fast enough to act at my full potential. I missed some combos, and there were just some bad moments in there. I promise I play better usually. XD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOaJ8PujO-c&feature=youtu.be

CC me if ya'll want to. I'd love to hear your feed back. 'Sepcially if you guys see some things like idiosyncrasies that I have that are harmful.

Zelda isn't a good matchup for Yoshi to begin with, but you back off the ledge so hard man, you have to be more aggressive than that. Yoshi has one of the best recoveries in the game, you can make them work for that ledge, even Zelda. Yoshi's wavedash is very useful, I personally use the dash-in > wavedash-back approach alot, and it makes the opponent throw out hitboxes or shield or just DO something. When they do, you get free punishes. You also seem to overestimate how far your grab reaches pretty often, that just comes with practice. Back-air is a great approach because it has vurtually no ending frames (even without an Lcancel) so you can do anything you want after it. (say they shield it and want to grab you after, you can spot dodge (or grab parry) the moment you hit the ground and punish them when they miss.
Zelda is literally the last character you'd want to practice on, since it just makes it unnecessarily hard on you and it doesn't prepare you for a real Zelda player. COMs are good to polish tech skill and reflexes, so pick an opponent that will push those (like sonic or spacies or lucas).

 

[Deviljho]

Zelda isn't a good matchup for Yoshi to begin with, but you back off the ledge so hard man, you have to be more aggressive than that. Yoshi has one of the best recoveries in the game, you can make them work for that ledge, even Zelda. Yoshi's wavedash is very useful, I personally use the dash-in > wavedash-back approach alot, and it makes the opponent throw out hitboxes or shield or just DO something. When they do, you get free punishes. You also seem to overestimate how far your grab reaches pretty often, that just comes with practice. Back-air is a great approach because it has vurtually no ending frames (even without an Lcancel) so you can do anything you want after it. (say they shield it and want to grab you after, you can spot dodge (or grab parry) the moment you hit the ground and punish them when they miss.
Zelda is literally the last character you'd want to practice on, since it just makes it unnecessarily hard on you and it doesn't prepare you for a real Zelda player. COMs are good to polish tech skill and reflexes, so pick an opponent that will push those (like sonic or spacies or lucas).

Thanks for the feedback! I don't get to play with too many people, and I usually can't beat the Zelda I play, so COMs are usually my practice. As I stated, it wasn't my best run, wasn't doing so hot in those matches. Your comments are recieved nicely. I'll work on that. Thanks dude!

"using every aerial equally" and "only using them when it's appropriate" don't mean the same thing at all. Of all Yoshi's aerials, Fair has the fewest situations where it's the best option, therefore it should be used the least. Nair and Bair have tons of situations where they are the best option, and Uair is the best option in pretty much any situation where the opponent is above you.

Well, fair just has different situations. I've done bair ledgecancel -> fair before. It's not like they don't exist. But I see what you're saying, and agree.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Thanks for the feedback! I don't get to play with too many people, and I usually can't beat the Zelda I play, so COMs are usually my practice. As I stated, it wasn't my best run, wasn't doing so hot in those matches. Your comments are recieved nicely. I'll work on that. Thanks dude!

No problem. The Yoshi Brotherhood needs to be stronger. I really must stand by my previous statement though, don't play against COM Zelda. It will get you nowhere with too much frustration. She is at a strange gravity that makes her hard to play against anyways, and playing the COM won't get you the real matchup experience. My personal style with Yoshi is to read and deal heavy punishment from those reads. Almost every other character will help polish those aspects, Zelda is just unnecessary frustration for you. Play against Sheik and Lucas and Spacies and swordsmen.
This is a taste of my Yoshi:
http://smashboards.com/threads/uploaded-matches-this-is-how-i-yoshi-videos.352835/

 

[Scatz]

Just a tidbit from me, I don't really condone practice vs computers as a viable reference since they're unreliable when trying to learn. Practicing techskill and fluidity on a low level cpu is much better along with analyzing matchups that are recorded.

Most I can really say is that your spacing was really off and the poor choice of aerials relative to you and the cpu's position made you eat a lot of damage. If you have any matches vs people, I can break that down much more delicately if you want.

Oh yeah, I implore all Yoshi players to stop using Down-B when up in the air. It's marginally useful when grabbing the ledge and/or trying to land on the ground when an opponent is chasing you up to the top blastzone. You will start getting punished for it when you meet better players.

 

[Dinowulf]

Scatz Would you mind CNC my matches? That I posted a while back...

 

[Scatz]

Scatz Would you mind CNC my matches? That I posted a while back...

Yeah, I'll get to probably one or two of them this week. I already have another person I need to write up. Though, I must warn you, I don't hold back on my critiques (shown of my recent ones done on Brawl Yoshi boards).

 

[Dinowulf]

Yeah, I'll get to probably one or two of them this week. I already have another person I need to write up. Though, I must warn you, I don't hold back on my critiques (shown of my recent ones done on Brawl Yoshi boards).

I remember asking your help in brawl (I used to be named DemonicDragon93) and your brawl advice is one of the reasons why I'm good in PM with Yoshi now lol. Bring it one be as critical as possible

 

[Scatz]

Ah, I thought so. I remember seeing your avi on your youtube series. I'll make sure that I msg you when I finish it.

 

[TensenROB]

For the amount you're grabbing him you should be four stocking this bowser lol. First off I honestly don't think you're following up on dthrow fast enough, secondly you should do DJC uair as a followup on bowser, that should work. Also you can space bair on shield and should be your go to move in the m/u. You can overwhelm him pretty hard with bair and if you poke his shield (which you will) it can lead to free usmashes/uairs/w.e you want honestly. Additionally to dthrow, depending on his DI you can try usmashing or utilting him -> more usmash or uair.

Thanks for the input! I'll practice the wilder DI directions on dthrow. I'll also work on spacing bair, shield poke isn't easy for me. I can shield poke with it but only in one of the later hits which doesn't pop them up enough for me to follow up. Utilt is a great juggling tool but only works at some early-mid %s or else they're either sent too low to the ground or they're too high because of the endlag, I'll try seeing when it works.

I would also recommending more egg throws and use the sweet spot of yoshis down B to your advantage. I would also recommend cutting back on the ground pound(air)

Thank you! You're right, I need to work on my egg game to be more useful like covering tech options. I miss followups to successful egg throws a lot because I go for the dash grab when they're popped above it, so maybe I should wait longer before grab or just try nairing. I missed downb to the ledge a lot, but it's my favourite way to grab ledge. Downb from air works often but I get that they were just not punishing well, so I will cut back on it.

Bowser is simple low percentages.... you downthrow and then dash under him and upsmash. And this stays viable until he's like 160%

Thanks, I played against another Bowser and you're right. Usmash is the best followup to DI away till at least 50%.

Entirely too much fair. Fair should be your least used aerial, honestly. If you wanna hit stuff in front of you, you should usually nair. Fair is for spiking offstage, or setting up tech chases on airborne opponents, it's not a good default followup or approach. The grabs at the beginning of game1 were good, do more of that, but follow up with djc uairs instead of going for fairs. Grabs are the bane of Bowser's existence, and Yoshi's grab game is too good for him to handle.

You also use too much downb. It's a habit I catch myself doing a lot too, but it's soooo easy to punish. Honestly, only use it if you think you really need to touch the ground NOW. In terms of actually trying to hit opponents below you, there are much better options. You really shouldn't try to hit anyone with it unless you know they're committed to something you will beat, and most characters can beat you with a well spaced uair.

Thanks I see that I was using fair way too much and in the wrong situations, I'll try to fix that. I do think fair has onstage use, melee Yoshis use it often to start juggles because its knockback on grounded targets is similar to dthrow. I will also cut back on the downb, I've only had success with it when the opponent wasn't properly punishing it.

 

[Dinowulf]

If you get your opponent into the egglay on stage try to throw the egg behind you.

EX:

You Egglay them you slightly move ahead of them (If they fall to the right go to the left a little bit and throw the egg behind you. (UP+B The Quickly move it to the Right motion)

 

[Scatz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APcWRCZa66A (10:49 - 21:27)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oesLjNzoEwc (The Entire Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMHHPFXOZh4 (00:00 - 00:46) (Conclusion of the last match on previous video)

I know some of my Problems is not Jumping out of shield (Blame it on melee for that one)

I was a little more methodical with Brawl critiques because of the way the game plays, but since PM is similar to Melee, I'm much more straightforward.

So from what I've seen, you lack the knowledge of what Melee Yoshi was capable of and how it transferred over to PM Yoshi. Your Brawl methods are good, but it only works that way because the game is slower, more defensive, and harder to use momentum (movement) to get close to someone. With PM, that's not the case. You'd benefit much more from learning how Melee (or PM) Yoshi works with DJC and DDing.

Also, you gotta get dirty. Don't let people recover so easily by leaving the ledge open. In Brawl, it was hella easier to reach the stage and not get gimped, but it's completely different now. You can use your invincibility while getting up from the ledge to avoid getting hit by an attack while making sure your opponent doesn't grab the ledge. We're not playing vs a bunch of Brawl MKs, so we can apply pressure (provided if you know what you're doing) offstage now.

Respect that you can't tank everything, and that your tanking ability gets weaker the higher percent you're at. Hardhitting characters (Ganon) does a super good job at breaking our armor. There's other moves that break our armor and it'll seem pretty janky, but you'll just have to find out what they are and get around them.

Prevent yourself from using smash attacks often (except for Dsmash after a properly done CC). Since the game is faster, it's easier to punish whiffed moves with moderate to hard amounts of damage. You'll have to be much more careful throwing out this time, but spacing proves to be more beneficial.

Learn to L-cancel. PM removes tons, and I mean TONS of lag from aerials. It's a necessary component. You'll get to see whether you L-canceled or not by seeing a white flash while landing. If you have a hard time managing the techskill for Yoshi, I suggest trying with input assistance on, then taking it off after you have some familarity with Yoshi.

I'm just repeating this, but since Yoshi can jump OoS, we don't need to rely on spotdodge and rolls anymore. My advice would be getting used to another character so you can slowly transfer that to PM Yoshi. Also, work on your egg toss aim more.

Like I said beforehand, refrain from using D-B from the air unless you have valid reason to. When you play against better players, you'll get punished hard for it. That's about it for now. Your biggest problem is the not knowing the options you have because you're playing closer to Brawl. Melee's style opens up much more options for aggressive play and being in a neutral position against opponents. Plus, it'll open you up to a combo game. Since you didn't know many PM options, your gameplay was sluggish and hesitant. Once you get Melee's style incorporated, I can really get into the critiques.

Oh yeah, a tidbit in case you didn't know, if you hold jump while attacking, you'll be able to use Brawl's DJ mechanic (rising aerials).

Edit: Take a look in the melee boards and look at a few guides there. Almost any guide there will be useful to applying in PM.

 

[Dinowulf]

Nice analyst and your right I just started playing. Melee yoshi back in December and I do have a rough time adjusting between both games. I screwed up on the l cancelling trying to implement the footstool. Love the advice though and I will use this to improve thanks

 

[Kaysick]

I will be using my yellow dino and pink puffball at the monthly over here in Chicago on Saturday so hopefully I'll get on stream for some matches.

 

[Jamnt0ast]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmTJU2IDfNw

I'm gonna leave this here.. Dr. Robotnik's Yoshi Grand Finals at BreadnButter Weekly 1.

I'd love to have a critique for this Yoshi, and really for me too if you guys feel qualified... Thanks in advance!

 

[TomBoComBo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmTJU2IDfNw

I'm gonna leave this here.. Dr. Robotnik's Yoshi Grand Finals at BreadnButter Weekly 1.

I'd love to have a critique for this Yoshi, and really for me too if you guys feel qualified... Thanks in advance!

The Foot has a solid Yoshi, but (in my own opinion) he
1: uses eggroll far too meaninglessly (I saw him throw it out like 4 times in a row when his opponent was chilling on a platform above). He needs to give a purpose to the move and not just throw it out to move around. A more experienced player would simply drop down at the correct moment and punish it. I personally use Eggroll to mindgame and tech chase and approach, never without a purpose.
2: needs to wavedash and work on 'Actively' Spacing. Yoshi has some godlike mind-games he can play and his wavedash makes that super unpredictable (and fun). The Foot's spacing in general is ok, he needs to always be aware of what options the opponent has. Especially in the air, he needs to be able to make safe decisions and understand Yoshi's limitations. In the first match, after taking a stock, he would wait out the opponent's invincibility by double jumping up wayyyy over the stage and eggrolling. This will ONLY work for people who don't know Yoshi. Better players would gimp the absolute **** out of that. As far as double jump armor goes, he has a good understanding of it, but he uses it solely as an offensive tactic, where I saw him double jump into the opponent several times, just to eat an aerial and then Nair. This trade is good, but only at low percents and much more efficient when it's used as a defensive option.
3: Needs to use more rising aerials, Nair OoS, and grabs more. Rising aerials make playing Yoshi a blast and they're the most effective way to get hard punishes and intense combos. Rising aerials off of the stage will shut down half the cast (none of the space animals can do a thing about it), simply walk off the stage, fast fall, then do a rising Nair at your desired height, if you come too far off the ledge, throw an egg. Eggthrow's ending animation lets you grab the ledge even if you're facing away from it. Nair OoS is Yoshi's way of throwing off pressure. If they SHFFL nair you while in shield, since Yoshi can now jump OoS, you can simply shorthop Nair or DJC Nair and then punish. On the topic of pressure, if the opponent is juggling yoshi at low percents, mash jump then fast fall with a Nair. AND grabs. Know the grab range and work on reading when you can outspace the opponent for a grab. Yoshi's Down-Grab leads to everything for every character except fast fallers (use Up-Throw for them). The spacing and wavedashing go hand in hand with the grabs, Yoshi's grab game is downright incredible when you add in Pivot grabs. Work on punishment rather than continuously trying to approach them.

The biggest thing to me is how often The Foot uses eggroll and how inappropriate the timing is of the usage. The move is hands down the most useful tool in Yoshi's kit and I personally use it a ton too, but The Foot needs to work on how he uses it. You can't use it to approach from the air unless you know you're acting quick enough to get behind them and roll back into them. I kept getting scared for The Foot every time he used it because if the Opponent knew how to hit-confirm their attacks, he'd be so screwed. As I said before, Use Eggroll (same philosophy with every move) with a purpose. Don't just throw it out as intimidation or to get around the stage, wavedashing and wavelanding cover that far better than risking a death over a sloppy Eggroll. The other thing is to work on Rising Aerials, I saw almost none of them in the play. They are Yoshi's best tool to cover options, punish opponents really hard, tech-chase opponents really well, and they make combos continue forever. I do a Down-throw>Up-air>Rising Up-air>Fair or even Down-Air>Fast-Fall Up-Air.

These tools you need to level up. Good job starting the Yoshi train man, We all need to make Yoshi the top-tier character he is


and sorry man, I don't know MK or Mario enough to critique, I put my heart and soul into Yoshi

 

[TFoot]

I respect your criticism about my yoshi, but I have to dissagree with you on many of the tactics you claim i have at fault. Let me say first that this was the first time fighting a metaknight, and even understanding how mario moves about the stage and what i need to do to get around him to take stage control is quite difficult. Mario and metaknight are extremely mobile characters, so the use of egg roles to get in was very much necessary.

From what i have been able to understand is this. if yoshi is currently in the egg roll on the ground, any single attack will clash with him, no matter what and leave him lag free to instantly do anything. Yoshi's double hit box release on the egg roll works both on the ground and in the air, which makes for easy set ups: On the ground leads to an up tilt than a read to a variety of moves, the air one leads to an instant up air, and if you l-cancel you can start the ground combo from there. This double hit on the ground provides enough stun to be able to use that 1 fram of lag after the second hit to be short enough to lead into either a up-tilt or a jab before the opponent can even respond UNLESS it is a very light character like pit or samus who suffer very little from hit stun from the egg roll. Adding a layer of depth you can choose when to release the second hit to bait out the shield grab and snag them from behind.

Its because of these elements that i have incorporated into my game that concluded with Jamnt0ast being the only person to beat me at this Round Robin tourney, and i only even lost 1 other match but won 2-1.

I know its in no way perfected, and adjusting when i need to be using it and being more confident in the match ups that well determine whether or not i succeed.

I do want to tell you that the raising aerial second up-air does not work on mario, and metaknight is one of 2 characters so far that can actually aboid the first up air all together (only if he DI's correctly, the other character is samus, and it does not work on her at all cept maybe if she DI's bad at 0)

Also, Yoshi wrecks fast fallers. down throw to up tilt/f-tilt will combo fox, falco and falcon from 60-80% if you read right. To really show you what i mean, here is the round robin tourney that this finals is from, I make it on the stream quite a lot. http://www.twitch.tv/iesmash/b/528321916
I am the only Yoshi from our region.

Fun fact, Zerxion, the mewtwo i 4 stock, beat Jamntoast. Hes a very strong player, but you will see some of the things i talked about used on him.

 

[TFoot]

In hence, Im very bad at forums. Dont kill me.

 

[Scatz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmTJU2IDfNw

I'm gonna leave this here.. Dr. Robotnik's Yoshi Grand Finals at BreadnButter Weekly 1.

I'd love to have a critique for this Yoshi, and really for me too if you guys feel qualified... Thanks in advance!

Ain't going into deep detail.

Tfoot: Learn DJC combos. Your punishes from a grab are very minimal (and he's not DIing enough to make Yoshi alter his options from a D-throw). Stop Down-Bing from the air. There obviously wasn't enough punishes for it, but I guarantee that you'd get punished harder for using it without baiting your opponent up into the air or to do something so you can land safely (Mario 3rd Stock death in match 2 indicated that). Eggroll in the air is lackluster. the hitbox is no where as strong as the ground version. While eggshells are cool, more characters with proper range can clank the shells and hit you. Not only that, but if you use grounded eggroll recklessly, you can get knocked out of it (you only clank with weaker moves).

JT: Punish more from your grab combos. You have more potent links and can kill ppl using D-throw > F-air if they don't DI it properly. Utilize your crouch cancels more to get free D-smashes off on moves that are not spaced properly. D-smash is a fantastic move for Mario, and you don't use it much.

Less fireballs too. After your first stock, I could tell you always wavebounced towards your opponent when you wanted to fireball. At the positions you were at, Tfoot could punish you if he reacted fast enough. Not only that, but you felt compelled to use at least 2 or more fireballs AND wait for one to hit before going in.

 

[TensenROB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmTJU2IDfNw

I'm gonna leave this here.. Dr. Robotnik's Yoshi Grand Finals at BreadnButter Weekly 1.

I'd love to have a critique for this Yoshi, and really for me too if you guys feel qualified... Thanks in advance!

For the Yoshi I only have a few critiques for the first match. The egg roll usage was good but should stay careful about not doing it in punish range, like at 1:46 you were knocked out of it during the startup and lost your double jump. The MK wasn't challenging your up-air juggles so I think in that situation you should DJC the u-air because you'll get back to the stage quicker and have more time to follow up. Really solid with the pivot grabs! I notice that you miss the l-cancel on dair probably because you're not sure whether to do it early or late (because of hitlag when it connects). Dair has 30 frames of landing lag, and I've been punished often when l-cancelling it. Try l-cancelling it when you expect to be very close to the ground if it misses.

 

[Deviljho]

The foot: Solid Yoshi stuff! Not too too much stuff that went bad. Just try to be careful with egg roll. Other then that, way to rep! at least from what I saw. xD

 

[Toomad]

Foot, pretty nice Yoshi, but Tombo is right, sharking with egg roll when the opponent is above you is not as threatening as just dash dancing. In effect, it's dash dancing that you can't control as well. Work on your out of shield game, nair and upsmash out of shield are both great options. Nair if the opponent is in front of you, upsmash if they're behind you.

Edit: Also eggs, I haven't seen anyone that's really using eggs super well. Extending combos and zoning the opponent with eggs is a really, really powerful way to control the stage. Though to be fair, the egg used to set up the Fair in the first match was picture perfect.

 

[Deviljho]

Whattup Yoshi's? It's been a while since you've seen my Yoshi! Well, thanks to my new capture card, I've got vids!
All are against Angel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZmnbNVdTug (Yoshi Vs Zelda)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndZiRZONCPU (Yoshi Vs Pit)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORA2F0J4ymw (Yoshi Vs Zelda)

Feel Free to CnC me!

 

[TomBoComBo]

Whattup Yoshi's? It's been a while since you've seen my Yoshi! Well, thanks to my new capture card, I've got vids!
All are against Angel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZmnbNVdTug (Yoshi Vs Zelda)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndZiRZONCPU (Yoshi Vs Pit)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORA2F0J4ymw (Yoshi Vs Zelda)

Feel Free to CnC me!

Before I critique, is this online via dolphin? or is this same room matches?

 

[TomBoComBo]

Whattup Yoshi's? It's been a while since you've seen my Yoshi! Well, thanks to my new capture card, I've got vids!
All are against Angel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZmnbNVdTug (Yoshi Vs Zelda)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndZiRZONCPU (Yoshi Vs Pit)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORA2F0J4ymw (Yoshi Vs Zelda)

Feel Free to CnC me!

First of all, I don't feel comfortable critiquing people on stuff I don't personally have mastered yet, as an example, DJC aerials close to the ground. So if I miss something that's high level mechanics like that, assume that I leave it out because I myself haven't mastered it.

Second of all, this is just my opinion on your play, from one Yoshi to another. You can take my advice, you can disagree with it, whatever the case, here's my two cents

OK getting into it, here are my critiques on your play as far as "gripes"
1.
The biggest thing I noticed about your play (mostly on the second vid, but it's present in every one) is that you follow up on the ground with uptilt 95% of the time. Yes, you do land most of them, and it's not a bad option to take, BUT you don't follow it up with anything and it's not the best option to take. I personally follow an eggroll (at low %'s) with a double jab to downtilt or dash-grab and this (following with a dash grab) covers all options (even on shield) except a forward-roll and certain characters' shield grabs. I'm not saying this is the best option, even though it gives you a grab to follow up on on top of all that, but it's definitely better than a lone uptilt. It's not that you use it alot that bugs me, but that you have it as your go-to. I saw many points where you just auto-piloted an uptilt after landing something. An upsmash is a better option if you want a stand-alone followup.

2.
Next issue, being a small one, work on L-canceling and getting it to be automatic. You can work on wavelanding on platforms after you've mastered that.

3.
Overall I see you not taking any risks and dropping combos/combo opportunities either because you're afraid to, or you're not fast enough to. Whichever the case, here's what I mean: B-air has almost no ending frames with non-existent landing lag, even without L-canceling. In many cases in your play, (at low/mid %'s) you landed most of a B-air and followed up with nothing. You can string a B-air > L-cancel > B-air > Rising N-air OR Rising B-air OR Rising F-air. That aside, you need to take more risks in following up on your hits. Hit-confirming is one of Yoshi's major strengths, his moves have great hitstun and he is mobile enough to follow up on almost every hit he lands.

4.
Your use of eggroll is pretty good, but be careful of initiating it close to the opponent, because the obvious would happen if they're fast enough to catch you in that beginning animation. And on recovery, there is almost never a time where you don't want to be getting back with eggroll. A few times I saw that you could easily have gotten back with an eggroll airdodge but you just airdodged and died for it. On the subject of recovery, using eggthrow is a decent option, but in the same case as the uptilt, you can't have this as an automatic. Many times you just give up your double jump armor to throw an egg, that's not a good idea unless you're really high above the stage. It's honestly easier to mind-game the opponent with eggroll and just get back.

5.
Work on your mind games, dash dancing, and reads. I've told people before, don't throw out moves just to throw out moves, give purpose to every input. You have to think about what options you can cover with what moves and what ways you can force your opponent to make decisions. Even on little things, if you can force your opponent to think and force them to adapt to you, and you can keep forcing that repeatedly, you've won. Also, you need to be faster, you pause every time you do something before making your next move. Yoshi should always be moving and making decisions quickly and on-the-fly.

OVERALL: I say work on L-canceling, work on mind games, work on playing faster, work on reads, play smarter, take some risks, work on squeezing as much percent as you can out of every hit you land. Kill moves are a must, you need to use Up-smash instead of uptilt, it's far more efficient.

What I like about your play:
You use the eggthrow to ledge guard (something I haven't figured out yet) and you use it pretty well. May I suggest you add FF > Rising Aerial. This isn't the best idea vs Zelda nor Pitt, but it is a very good option for tethers and any characters that have less priority in their recoveries.
I like following a Down-throw with a grounded Down-B. Be aware that it only works on those who don't DI the throw correctly and it won't work on floaties.
Your usage of eggroll is pretty good, you use the second hitbox efficiently, you just need to follow with better options than a sole uptilt.
Your usage of B-air is good. You get in quite well with it. Be aware that higher priority moves and/or well timed moves will stuff that approach if your opponent is savvy enough to use them. Also follow up the B-airs with something IN THE AIR, more B-airs are very viable in that.
I saw lots of Grab-Parries and that made me happy. If you're doing it by accident, that's fine too, but I saw quite a few.

Afterthought, if you ever find yourself on a ledge, a very quick way to get on the stage and safe is to Fast fall, Jump, and then eggroll when you're slightly above the stage. It's a very safe (and unexpected) way to get back.

You have a good Yoshi, work hard! Rise to the Top!

 

[OninO]

Haven't had a chance to watch much of your matches Devil but I did observe a couple of things.
1). I don't think Down B is ever a good option raw. It can be shielded on reaction very very easily. Best used as a follow up, or a mix up when descending, using your DJ to bait an aerial from the enemy and immediately cancelling into Down B for example.

2). Too much egg roll in neutral. Egg roll can be fantastic but completely linearises your approach. It's like a high inertia dash dance with a hitbox. I think it's best used to change direction after you see your opponent commit to something like a jump or a dash.

 

[Deviljho]

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

@ TomBoComBo :
Same room matches.

1) yes, I did in that in those vids. U tilt is a solid tilt, but as I am working on my speed(which I have improved on since, you touched on that) landing an aerial is situational. Zelda can easily whip out a lightning kick, so against her I tend to be more cautious.

2) both my wavelands and my l cancels are improving, and I am working on those.

3)again, Zelda keeps me on edge.

4) I've actually started exploring more other then egg roll, cuz in bad situations egg roll can be a liability. It's good, but I relied too much on it. Still pull it in here and there for combos.

5) I do need more work on mind games.

Other then that, d throw down b works on two di: to yoshi (need to b reverse it though) and none. Up sometimes. I'll look at the options you provided. Thanks! On the note of rising to the top, I did just place 3rd in a small tourney here in SoCal yesterday. I worked on quite a bit and was a force to be reckoned with. I'll put up the vids with times sometime.

@ OninO

1) you're right. I used it to get back on stage faster, but I'm looking at other ways to do that better.

2)I agree. I'll work on that. I'm liking shffld aerials, something another yoshi told me at the tournament.

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ Deviljho most of my critique came from your match against Pitt. Yes, Zelda gives Yosh a hard time, but my concern is that your behavior that you say is because of Zelda seems to be your general mindset. You have to be more flexible and open minded.

 

[Deviljho]

@ Deviljho most of my critique came from your match against Pitt. Yes, Zelda gives Yosh a hard time, but my concern is that your behavior that you say is because of Zelda seems to be your general mindset. You have to be more flexible and open minded.

Ahh. Yeah, I got ya. I'll work on it. Though, in my last tourney I was quite aggressive. Most of the people I played can attest to that.

 

[deeseejay]

Finally got some videos to share and looking for some criticism.

Be as brutal as you like, aim is to get better after all.

vs Mannon (Gannondorf) - http://www.twitch.tv/m/526860

vs Al_Bulmer (Lucario) - http://www.twitch.tv/m/526867

vs Okameed (Charizard) - http://www.twitch.tv/m/526877

vs Skrull (Metaknight) - http://www.twitch.tv/m/526889

vs Diabound (Wolf) - http://www.twitch.tv/m/526898

There's a few, and it's a pain to watch them all...but any advice would be really appreciated.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[TomBoComBo]

Finally got some videos to share and looking for some criticism.

Be as brutal as you like, aim is to get better after all.

vs Mannon (Gannondorf) - http://www.twitch.tv/m/526860

vs Al_Bulmer (Lucario) - http://www.twitch.tv/m/526867

vs Okameed (Charizard) - http://www.twitch.tv/m/526877

vs Skrull (Metaknight) - http://www.twitch.tv/m/526889

vs Diabound (Wolf) - http://www.twitch.tv/m/526898

There's a few, and it's a pain to watch them all...but any advice would be really appreciated.

Thanks a bunch!

Ok, here's how I critique people: I won't tell you everything you lack because honestly I'm lacking a lot in my game as well (I'm sure nobody's mastered every aspect of Yoshi yet so we're all guilty of this). BUT i will tell you the errors I see in your play and point out habits that I personally would have taken advantage of.

Alrighty, lets get down to it.
I can't be brutal because as far as play style goes, you play very similar to me. I would say you're about where I was a month ago. Solid play, but there are a few things I would like to touch on. You may or may not agree with the input, but this is what I see:

You DJC early for little reason, this in many cases made you vulnerable to a possible gimp. I didn't see you actually die from getting caught in this many times, but it's not a good situation to be off the stage without your jump. I can understand if it's your playstyle and it's a way you space things out, but I noticed the pattern 3 stocks into the ganon fight and I'm surprised he didn't. I understand that you may be doing it for the DJC aerials close to the ground, but honestly, I think the other things I mention should come first before the DJC shorthop aerials can even be used properly

Speaking of spacing, yours needs some work. You have good spacing, but you need to tweak some things about your aerial game and your ground game. This is more about what part of the hitbox you want your opponent to be hit by, not so much how your spacing is in general (I'll talk about that in a second). I'll elaborate on this using the next point.

Hit-confirming is a huge strength of Yoshi's. You do it well, but as someone said to me about 2 months ago, you're shorting yourself. I saw a lot of opportunities for you to take your hits much farther, leading into tech chases and stock-enders. This is what the spacing plays into, you need to know how the hitboxes can work for you so you can land successive moves and/or lead into tech-chasing and resets. Bair is an obvious tool, I'm sure you're aware that you want to initiate it so the opponent is in the middle of the hitbox. Then Backair can string into backair and a rising backair to nair or another rising aerial. Just experiment with everything and see what you can string on different weight classes.

Wave-dashing, use it more. working wave-dashing into your dash dance will make your movement more irregular and unpredictable. And wave-dashing helps a great amount in tech chasing and in chasing DI (like if someone DI's away from you after a downthrow). I see some of it when you close out a stock, but obviously, that's not combat, therefore I'm mentioning it.
SIDE NOTE: as a side note, I am also working on this, but mostly trying to get wave-landing on platforms fluid, so again, I'm just pointing out what I see.

Next up is speeding up your game. Wavedashing will help, but I saw somethig I see in a lot of players (myself included) when they didn't have movement down. What it is is a small pause in-between doing moves. whether it be a hit or a miss, there's a good quarter second pause before you make the decision to do the next thing. Learn to make decisions faster, learning hit-confirms will help that. A player that is always moving is harder to pin down, especially if the movement is fluid and at the same time looks erratic (which is what Yoshi can do very very well). Also working eggroll into your movement is a good way to start.

Eggroll, you use it very well. You're the first Yoshi I've seen other than myself to use eggroll for tech-chases. (which is why I said your play is similar to mine) A word of warning about your usage, never do a full turnaround in eggroll, it's incredibly unsafe.

Work on Mindgames and reads. These come very naturally after movement gets to a solid point. Mindgames are a simple concept, because all you're trying to do is make the opponent make decisions faster and/or decisions that they don't usually make. Erratic movement is a good way to start that, especially if you're constantly all over them. With everything else, this makes you a monster.

L-canceling, get it to be automatic.

Overall, you play a good Yoshi. The commentators were saying you are one of the best in the area and I can easily believe it. Try to dive deeper into what you can do. I think a small mental tweak would be to be a bit ballsier. In my play, if my opponent shows any sign of weakness, being mental or physical or whatever, I'm all over them. I have to take risks to be able to jump on an opponent's indecision and punish them for it, and I think if you make that mental shift, you can do it too.


As a final tip for edge-guarding: you fish alittle too much. I'm going to make a post today on who is vulnerable to off the stage rising Nair. Vs Lucario and Wolf, you should be off that stage every single time you knock them off. Rising Nair destroys both of them, Wolf especially, since both of his recoveries are straight lines and are destroyed by Nair.

I hope I didn't tread to far or misjudge your play or anything and I hope you find this helpful. Obviously I can elaborate on any questions you have. For the Yosh!

 

[deeseejay]

You DJC early for little reason, this in many cases made you vulnerable to a possible gimp. I didn't see you actually die from getting caught in this many times, but it's not a good situation to be off the stage without your jump. I can understand if it's your playstyle and it's a way you space things out, but I noticed the pattern 3 stocks into the ganon fight and I'm surprised he didn't. I understand that you may be doing it for the DJC aerials close to the ground, but honestly, I think the other things I mention should come first before the DJC shorthop aerials can even be used properly

It's a bit of both. I'm honestly a bit confused about DJC aerials use from a grounded neutral game point of view. Should they be restricted to use when in the air? Or is using them on the ground unnecessary and risky? My thought was that keeping them as close to the ground as possible allows for less room for a punish and more time to follow up on. Is this wrong?

Wave-dashing, use it more. working wave-dashing into your dash dance will make your movement more irregular and unpredictable. And wave-dashing helps a great amount in tech chasing and in chasing DI (like if someone DI's away from you after a downthrow). I see some of it when you close out a stock, but obviously, that's not combat, therefore I'm mentioning it.
SIDE NOTE: as a side note, I am also working on this, but mostly trying to get wave-landing on platforms fluid, so again, I'm just pointing out what I see.

You got me, guilty. I normally use it a lot more when dash dancing, but I definitely need to use more in the scenario's you've mentioned.

Next up is speeding up your game. Wavedashing will help, but I saw somethig I see in a lot of players (myself included) when they didn't have movement down. What it is is a small pause in-between doing moves. whether it be a hit or a miss, there's a good quarter second pause before you make the decision to do the next thing. Learn to make decisions faster, learning hit-confirms will help that. A player that is always moving is harder to pin down, especially if the movement is fluid and at the same time looks erratic (which is what Yoshi can do very very well). Also working eggroll into your movement is a good way to start.

So keep moving for movement's sake? I find that moving (especially against fastfallers) sometimes open me for punishment...I agree though, regarding the rest of the cast, although I don't necessarily understand how hit-confirms help with follow up decision...do you mean knowing how the hit is going to affect them?

Eggroll, you use it very well. You're the first Yoshi I've seen other than myself to use eggroll for tech-chases. (which is why I said your play is similar to mine) A word of warning about your usage, never do a full turnaround in eggroll, it's incredibly unsafe.

Agree with the egg roll turnaround usage...BUT it's very useful for when people expect you to use it the same way and you stay in just for you to roll straight through them and come back, especially when they're used to you using it a different way.


Thanks a lot, you've gave me a lot to work on. A bit of clarification on what you mean by hit-confirms would be very helpful though (:

 

[V3ctorMan]

So many Yoshi's in this forum... I'm growing excited alot... You guys should see some footage I've got...

But, I'll wait just a bit longer.. I'd give some critique, but it appears you all have it handled...

Glad to see the rising Yoshi's Keep it up everyone <3

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ deeseejay
As far as DJC close to the ground, I think what you've been doing with that is good, but at your current game, it's putting you at risk. It's honestly better to just shorthop with the aerials at this point. DJC close to the ground, like in the Project M 3.0 Trailer, is used best the way aMSa uses it, dishing out repeated U-airs in quick succession. People have also told me about DJC N-airs OoS and I honestly think it's unnecessary. In regards to this, I personally think it's unsafe and a savvy opponent may pick that apart. But if you can get it down to a science and polish that so it's less risky, I can see that working very well.

Yes, keep moving for movement's sake. Especially against fast-fallers. Fast-fallers get punished crazy hard by Yoshi, if you're all over them and forcing them to make decisions and tech in the way you want them to. Moving for movement's sake will keep your opponents from pinning down what options you have at the given time. You want to keep them guessing. Top players notice hesitation and devour it, it's better to risk getting punished (don't be stupid with your movement, just keep yourself from hesitation) than for the opponent to see that your thought process isn't fast enough.

Eggroll concerned, there are far better mindgames to play than just "am I gunna get out of eggroll or not?" Eggroll allows your movement to be even more erratic and ridiculous, there are better ways to use it than a straight line back and forth.

What I mean by Hit-confirms is that you need to take every hit you land and get the absolute most out of it. Land a N-air at low percents? Push the pressure and make the most out of the hitstun, Jab jab grab or dtilt or whatever. That's how combos form, you hit-confirm and improvise with how they tech or DI and if you're smart enough, they lose a stock. A fun example is landing a B-air, the % and hitstun gained from that is very good and B-air's ending frames are non existent (even without L-canceling). But you can't stop after getting that hit, especially if you space the hitbox correctly. You can follow that up with another B-air, which will knock your opponent in an upward slant. How can you follow the new hitstun? Well a rising Aerial of course! A turnaround F-air can work as a finisher (maybe as a spike off the stage) you can rising N-air, you can throw out another B-air for more percent or to try and extend the combo even further. You can do this combo on stage, you can do it super far off stage (Eggroll lets you go as far as you want and come back very easy). But this is what hit-confirming is, you took one hit and turned it into a stock and/or triple the percentage that you got from the original B-air. I mention this because I saw opportunities for this and other hit-confirms and you landed the move and ended you sitting in shield. The important thing is to throw in other things like tech chasing, jab-resets, mind games and mixups to get the most out of your hits (you can land your move on shield and get good stuff out of it if you make your opponent think the way you want them to). This is what I mean buy Hit-confirms. Anything else you'd like me to clarify?

@ V3ctorMan
Please post about them, we'd all love to see what you've got! And, are you going to CEO at the end of the month? I would love to play you in person.

 

[OninO]

With respect to DJC nair out of shield, it's necessary against some characters (meta-knight/kirby/jiggs) as you can't hit a short hop nair out of shield if they're grounded. Alternatives are DJL downsmash, which is pretty quick, I can't remember the frame data off the top of my head but it's fast. Can be hard to execute though and it's not as good if they cross to behind you.

Tombos hit confirm is also known as your punish game. Punish every mistake the enemy makes as hard as you possibly can. Edit: In other words, I think while we're getting data on match ups, it's better to be caught reaching on a punish than not find out a new bread and butter.

 

[Scatz]

Recent videos of my Yoshi in making. Despite having a few terrible missed L-cancels and screwed up DJC Nairs, I kept things well composed. Still a lot of parts I need to fix though. Video got sped up due to recorder issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npe7lZASRGc&list=PLmOE4XgHqBjp-aOUyUo7N6lVGwGgST-62&index=1 (vs Lucas)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX7SMKIHa1A&list=PLmOE4XgHqBjp-aOUyUo7N6lVGwGgST-62&index=2 (vs Kirby)

Btw, **** Kirby and his short ass ;-;