Project M - Yoshi matches

[Alphicans]

Of course grabbing is godlike, the point is that trying to find ways that are to safe to grab him is hard to do, and if you're not safe you're just gonna get completely destroyed. So to simply say just grab all the time is just not good advice.

 

[Scatz]

What do you mean? I feel that the combined use of eggroll, wavelanding, grabs and quick aerials, he's got a damn solid neutral game. Where do you see the hiccups?

I feel hiccups when you're trying to keep Yoshi from being non-committing. Sure DJCs have the mixup and the ability to keep oneself from mis-spacing an attack, but it feels like Yoshi's moves make you commit in some form or fashion. B-air doesn't have as much priority as it did in Brawl (I believe they extended Yoshi's hurtbox out into his tail), and with how characters can close space between another so easily, pivot grab doesn't have as huge effectiveness as I thought. To me, it feels like you're either using DJC to tank a hit or dodging an attack (or baiting one), with neither of those giving the feel that you're safe.

This is in contrast to characters like Mario, Fox, Falco, Pit, etc.

Maybe it's the feeling that he's a higher risk/reward character than some others...

 

[TomBoComBo]

I feel hiccups when you're trying to keep Yoshi from being non-committing. Sure DJCs have the mixup and the ability to keep oneself from mis-spacing an attack, but it feels like Yoshi's moves make you commit in some form or fashion. B-air doesn't have as much priority as it did in Brawl (I believe they extended Yoshi's hurtbox out into his tail), and with how characters can close space between another so easily, pivot grab doesn't have as huge effectiveness as I thought. To me, it feels like you're either using DJC to tank a hit or dodging an attack (or baiting one), with neither of those giving the feel that you're safe.

This is in contrast to characters like Mario, Fox, Falco, Pit, etc.

Maybe it's the feeling that he's a higher risk/reward character than some others...

I can understand that. I actually quite agree, but I play hyper aggressive, so I guess I've kinda accepted the "all in" strategy. As far as committing to moves, I agree, but B-air is definitely a good tool for at least keeping space. Neutral B is a safe move.
Honestly, you're completely right about what you have to do with Yoshi, about either tanking or baiting, but I believe that's really the best way to play him, as aggro read-punish. Slight risk, high reward.

 

[Scatz]

But when you get to higher percents where tanking with the DJ isn't efficient (and downright dangerous), what tools can Yoshi use to make his neutral game not as crippled (I guess that's the right word?)?

I would like to know what other Yoshis think about those two questions since everyone's playstyle is different.

 

[Alphicans]

You're right, yoshi can get zoned hard in this game, and since his grab isn't safe at all, nearly all of his hard punish approaches are high commitment. You can get around this by using yoshi's great dash dance and pivot grab to catch people trying to stuff you, but unfortunately many characters can zone effectively enough to not fear yoshi.

At higher %s eggroll is pretty great because honestly the risk isn't that high considering what you can get off of it. Or just a yolo dash grab. You gotta commit, so just be really tricky about it.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I second this ^
except the grab part, yes it is dangerous, but if you can be tricky about it then you can get a stock off of it. And you have to use DJarmor defensively at high percents. I play against an Ivy main and on multiple occasions, I tanked through a solar beam with DJarmor at over 120%. I think DJarmor works like this (correct me if I'm completely wrong): Unlike Melee, where the armor is consistent until the top of the jump then you lose it, PM's DJarmor starts at a higher amount and then decays over the jump. The higher the percentage you get, the more armor you get right when when you initiate DJ. BUT also the faster it decays. I've tanked many moves that should've killed me at high percents.

 

[TensenROB]

DJ armour is a flat reduction in the knockback you receive, and if that means the KB is <= 0 then Yoshi goes through it. Knockback increases linearly with some base knockback. Here's Marth's tipper f-smash against Yoshi:

y=((((((x+20)/10+(x+20)*20/20)*200/211*1.4)+18)*70/100)+80)*r

where r is some value based on weird values like handicap that don't change in a match.

If r is 1 (it probably is for normal matches), then Yoshi gets a reduction of 120 KB on all attacks in his DJ.

So DJ armour eats up base knockback, and then eats the KB from the move's knockback growth and Yoshi's %.

Some moves have very high base knockbacks so they can eat through DJ armour easily. Falco's shine has 121 KB against Yoshi from 0% so it always breaks armour. Marth's tipper f-smash breaks it at 7%, and Marth's non-tipper jab breaks it at 454%. So far I haven't found any moves that contradict my explanation so it's probably true.

This also means that you can easily calculate what % Yoshi needs to be at to be knocked the same distance through DJ armour as he would normally. eg. Marth tipper f-smash through DJ armour when Yoshi is at 124% to 125% knocks him back the same distance as if Yoshi didn't use DJ armour and was at 7%.

tldr: Yoshi's DJ armour is a flat minus 120 knockback. Knockback scales with % linearly, with a base knockback, so on average KB scales at a decreasing rate with %.

 

[Oracle]

Ok im trying to play yoshi can someone explain whats so good about eggroll? Seems like it has kind of weak priority and is weak to pivot grabs/sex kicks

 

[Airrogance]

Ok im trying to play yoshi can someone explain whats so good about eggroll? Seems like it has kind of weak priority and is weak to pivot grabs/sex kicks

Personally i don't think it's as godly as some people here make it out to be but it is good. IMO its good because if you hit someone with egg roll you can almost always follow up and start a combo, like eggroll to uptilt and go from there. plus you can mix-up and mindgame with it i guess. But yeah I agree it's weak to pivot grabs n certain aerials

 

[OninO]

I'm on the side that doesn't rate egg roll that highly. It can take people by surprise, especially when it accelerates as it connects with the ground, but it's got limited application against people who have seen it before. The best one I can think of is to fake an approach, cancel just outside of the move they do to respond, and grab.

 

[didds]

Ok im trying to play yoshi can someone explain whats so good about eggroll? Seems like it has kind of weak priority and is weak to pivot grabs/sex kicks

Use it as a feint. In zoning range, egg roll away, then hit towards your opponent as you hit the ground for egg roll's fast acceleration. It has great follow ups and can throw people off with its speed the way a wizard's kick might. It's a good move that only has benefits with good mixup. As long as you don't throw it out constantly like many are probably prone to do. I feel I don't use it enough.

It does have weak priority though and I would never use it as an approach. It's an alright tech chase though and leads to uairs on most, if not all, of the cast

 

[deeseejay]

Good for tech chasing, general stage manoeuvrability.

NOT good for approaching, I learnt that the hard way when all of my local players just started shield grabbing me.

 

[deeseejay]

Some more games I need critique for.

Me vs Ser Aaron (Lucario)

http://www.twitch.tv/m/545138

Me vs NKD (Lucas)

http://www.twitch.tv/m/545177

Me vs TFU (Fox)

http://www.twitch.tv/m/545190

Any feedback on the last two in particular would be helped, those are the games I lost. Game 4th in the tournament overall so pretty happy with my performance.

Taaaaaaaaaaaa.

 

[TravisRoland]

I guess i'll hop the band wagon and share a video of my Yoshi, I've actually never had it critiqued before 0_0

http://www.twitch.tv/m/545513

 

[TomBoComBo]

I guess i'll hop the band wagon and share a video of my Yoshi, I've actually never had it critiqued before 0_0

http://www.twitch.tv/m/545513

That commentator was so over hyped lol
Here's what I see:
You're not mobile enough, Yoshi does very well in the air and you were sticking to linear approaches on the ground. Yoshi may have a godlike grab, but it's only one of the many tools Yoshi has.
I see you using eggroll decently, but I also assume that these players you play against have never seen a Yoshi before and had no idea how to punish it. Use Eggroll for maneuverability and tech chases and reads. Using it as an approach will only get you so far before people catch on.
You need to DJC. Yoshi has that advantage of incredible maneuverability in the air because of DJC, USE IT. It makes Yoshi very formidable in his punish game.
Learn to make decisions faster as well.

All in all, you have a decent Yoshi, but you limit yourself too much to your ground game. Expand to what I mentioned and then come back with more stuff to show me/us and I'll let you know what's next.
Also, don't listen to what the Commentator was saying, he was wayyyy over hyped and very confused.
Keep up the good work!

 

[TravisRoland]

Haha thank you. The commentator was pretty hyped. They have never seen a Yoshi before. Good or bad. I've tried using DJC.. But oh muh gaw. It's so hard :'(

 

[TomBoComBo]

Haha thank you. The commentator was pretty hyped. They have never seen a Yoshi before. Good or bad. I've tried using DJC.. But oh muh gaw. It's so hard :'(

You get used to using it. It's a phenomenal tool for augmenting your movement to be unpredictable and fantastic for mindgames.

 

[TravisRoland]

This is probably not the right thread to ask. But do you know how to use the egg throw ledge stall?

 

[TomBoComBo]

This is probably not the right thread to ask. But do you know how to use the egg throw ledge stall?

I don't personally use it, but the best way to do it is: on the ledge, you press away from the ledge then jump then eggthrow in quick succession.

 

[OninO]

I usually do the ECE by pressing down to fast fall, then y to jump then up-b to throw. Find it easier to do them without reversing that way.

 

[V3ctorMan]

it's really useful.. you should add it. you won't regret it..

<3 it

 

[didds]

Honestly, if you can get good enough to do one or two ece's, usually an opponent will start respecting your ledge space more since they see that option now. Just don't get two comfortable or you will be gimped.

 

[Deviljho]

I'm also trying to get ECE's down...But the timing for at least the dash off stage ECE is different then in melee... Or is that just me?

 

[didds]

It definitely is, you want to be closer to the edge when you hit up b in project M.

Also got seventh outta 43 at my local on friday and got at least my wins recorded. What do you guys think?

Last one is a mm with MN's number 1 and I cracked under pressure a little.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM-jSdooQ3s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW77jO7LasM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwyr7I9vrnM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eNbDg90Owo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMeW7oJNCgY

things I'm working on:
-maximizing punishes, there were times where I'd throw a tilt at too high of percent and dropped a potentially stronger punish.
-overall consistency
-recovery mixup was lacking against better players
-holy **** pivot grab is omg
-omg same with egg roll
-be less dumb with djc's, no reason to DJC fair against a quick fox when he's close and out of shield
-when I was pressured I'd revert to melee Yoshi and not act out of shield enough, or like ya know, at all :/
-oh yea, uthrow FFs, dthrow floaties

@ V3ctorMan @ Deviljho @ Alphicans @ Scatz whoever else who is fairly prominent here that I missed

and @ TomBoComBo of course!

 

[Zeerti]

@ didds

Dear god I am very impressed at how good you are. I've watched these videos several times trying to practice. I'm terrible. I usually play as Samus, but after watching you and @ V3ctorMan play I want to have yoshi be my new main!

 

[Scatz]

Didn't notice that you tagged me lol. I'll get a review up maybe Sunday. (If not then during the week)

 

[didds]

@ didds

Dear god I am very impressed at how good you are. I've watched these videos several times trying to practice. I'm terrible. I usually play as Samus, but after watching you and @ V3ctorMan play I want to have yoshi be my new main!

It's incredibly satisfying to be the only one at my scene busting out Yoshi and doing decent with him, but ya gotta keep in mind that Yoshi not only has an enormous tech ceiling, but very little room for error.

It can be frustrating sometimes when one lapse in judgement can ruin your stock, I've been practicing Yoshi tech since the melee days and I still shoot myself in the foot against fairly low level competition.

But anyways thanks for the compliment it's good being recognized a bit. Just stick with it and maybe keep samus as a secondary, Yoshi can manage most MUs, but I've recently discovered that M2 can pulverize Yoshi if he understands that Yoshi can't reliably approach M2's absurd range, and unfortunately M2 might be pretty popular ever since that whole woop woop dealio lol.

Anyway, welcome to the land of YOSHIS

@ Scatz all good, I look forward to some feedback
btw, do you know a player named fatality? He came to one of our locals while visiting family and completely wrecked me...

 

[Scatz]

I do. He's currently one of the best players in GA. I'm not too surprised considering that his punish game is super good. Since I feel like Yoshi has problems in the neutral game, he's able to exploit it extremely well.

 

[didds]

Yup, I got to experience it first hand, I honestly was at a loss that match.
which is recorded if anyone wants to enjoy my pain.

 

[Nikes]

Laugh at my rusty Yoshi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuB4oWuemnQ


That aside, really loving your Yoshi didds. There's so much to be learnt from watching it, keep it up.

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ didds you missed me

 

[didds]

@ didds you missed me

I'm sorry TomBo, mark my words, it will never happen again!

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ didds
As far as your vids are concerned, I personally have little critique for you. I feel that you're decently ahead of me in Yoshi. I do feel I play a smarter game, but that's only because mindgames are my biggest strength. Your dash dancing is sublime, You know the hitboxes well, and most of your stuff is damn solid.

I would say though, I didn't see any grab-parries from you, being either you don't know them, or you were just too mobile for your opponents to try grabs. Personally, I think that the grab-parries should be the go-to option if you read your own vulnerability to a grab. It's faster than a spot dodge and you can do anything you want OoS. (in the ness fight there was a moment where you chose a spotdodge where I would have parried, this is why Im saying it should be a tool in your kit as well as all Yoshis' kits).

I think you should really work rising aerials into your game/combo game. It's incredibly useful to extend combos and take people farther off the stage and give you more stage control. There's also a thing with spacies among other characters called an off the stage Rising N-air. <-- this is why I firmly believe that Yoshi has a significant advantage against spacies. you can simply run off the stage and hit them with the toe of N-air and they're dead. Try it out, it's damn useful tech.

Other than that, your read game needs alittle tweak. You go for slightly harder reads rather than reactionary reads. I believe you should have both, but also a good mixture of the two. Don't put all of your chips on one hand, instead of thinking on covering 1 option and going for punish, think of covering 3 and reacting to one that you are spaced to expect. If they take the 4th, then they get away, but if they take any of the others, they get punished. That's how I personally play Yoshi, I impose my will on the opponent and force them to take the options I want them to. When fighting Liquid'Ken, he beat me 2-0 in winners because he always saw that 4th option and took it. In Loser's Finals, I started changing what that 4th option was, and it got me close to taking his bracket spot. If you get a knockdown, you can cover the roll forward, the getup attack, and the getup just by dash dancing just outside of their getup attack range.

Otherwise, great great stuff man, keep it up!!!

 

[didds]

Thanks for the critique TomBo mah man, I agree with everything you said.
I definitely go for that hard read very often so I need to work on more option coverage to be more efficient.
I'm trying to break the habit of just djc'ing uair when a rising aerial would work better.

As for the grab parry, I'm familiar with it, but I still haven't gotten accustomed to purposefully using is in my game. I do get the occasional accidental though when someone reads my get up, I shield, and they happen to grab during the parry frames. It's a nice little boost every once and a while

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ didds Grab-Parry is a big part of my game, I astonished many people with it at CEO and one Roy player got Parried like 4 times in a row and got an OoS N-air every time. Grab-Parries even helped me take stocks off the King. It's REALLY good tech to have, especially when mindgames are concerned, it makes them think grabs are unsafe. But just being able to do it on command is a huge advantage because your "little boost" becomes a tool rather than a once-in-a-while thing.

 

[didds]

@ didds Grab-Parry is a big part of my game, I astonished many people with it at CEO and one Roy player got Parried like 4 times in a row and got an OoS N-air every time. Grab-Parries even helped me take stocks off the King. It's REALLY good tech to have, especially when mindgames are concerned, it makes them think grabs are unsafe. But just being able to do it on command is a huge advantage because your "little boost" becomes a tool rather than a once-in-a-while thing.

I'm definitely going to start using it, and if they ever fix the parry to work fully like melee then we'll have a bit of a head start on practice.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I'm definitely going to start using it, and if they ever fix the parry to work fully like melee then we'll have a bit of a head start on practice.

when they do that, I'll be freaking gdlke.

 

[Scatz]

It definitely is, you want to be closer to the edge when you hit up b in project M.

Also got seventh outta 43 at my local on friday and got at least my wins recorded. What do you guys think?

Last one is a mm with MN's number 1 and I cracked under pressure a little.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMeW7oJNCgY

I'm going to do the game you lost (vs Chexr) since (imo) it shows the problems you have the moreso than decisive winning matches.

You gotta get your L-cancels down. They're noticable when you're hitting your opponent or opponent's shield. Wolf got a good amout of punishes on you because you're stuck in that extra bit of lag. Not only that, but make sure you delay your DJ + Aerial so you can get the move out properly.

I've noticed that you tend to use a tilt or jab right after using a DJC'd aerial, and a lot of those times, it has been used in a bad situation where you had no pressure on Wolf. Also, Wolf got some hits off you for making those choices. You need to make sure that you're not committing as much until you know you can get a punish on your opponent.

You're spotdodge happy. Normally, I'd be fine if it was any other game where Yoshi couldn't jump OoS, but since he can, you have to treat your options like any other character. Learn to sit in your shield instead of always spotdodging, and use your OoS options to get out of situations. Lots of good players don't really use their rolls or spotdodge.

I think that you have some issues when it comes to realizing shifts in momentum and when you're at a advantage / disadvantage. Many times you got punished it was because you were still pressing buttons from stuff like missed grabs, recovering, etc. (it's very apparent in game 2). As I said previously, I feel like you don't trust your shield, and that is hurting you from being able to handle pressure from high level players.

Mix up your ledge getup options. Either that, or learn ECE so that you can get pressure off you when someone is close. You took a chunk of damage just trying to get off the ledge. Most of the times, you were forcing your way in using DJ Armor, and against better players, you'll get blown up for it (which you felt against Wolf). If you were to rewatch your match, you'd see that every time you got onto the ledge, you'd probably do one move to regrab, then get up with a High DJ to Fair or drop down and DJ > Waveland. You can delay time by just regrabbing until you can find a option that will help you get onto the stage with the least damage taken (downB regrab or ECE). Not only that, but you still have regular ledge get up options and can use the ledge jump + waveland to keep from using your DJ. You can even push the limits of Yoshi's ability to recover by trying to use egglay to snatch 'em before regrabbing the ledge. Hit the lab, and try out multiple stuff to get to know how far you can push Yoshi's recovery.

Also, food for thought, try out B-reverse, Turnaround, and Wavebounce Egglay.

Your lack of fundamentals are catching up, and you have to make sure you get that up. Playing people will definitely help you get that understanding much quicker. When you practice in training mode, try working on a lvl 1-3 CPU and just practice being outside of his attack range. Think about the placements characters would not have a strength in and how you can get them there, then you practice offensive pressure (combos and w/e) to get used to those spots. It's not the best type of practice, but it's something without people to practice with consistently.

 

[didds]

Jab/Tilt after DJC aerials is a bad habit that I need to break and I don't have much to say about L-cancels other than nerves get me and I'm still adjusting to shield stun, but I'll get it down

What are some of the mixups you use to get on stage?

I came from a "no one to play with, practice offense" background and I definitely agree with you on all your points on defense.

Thanks for the in depth so far, I look forward to the rest of it @ Scatz

 

[Deviljho]

It definitely is, you want to be closer to the edge when you hit up b in project M.

Also got seventh outta 43 at my local on friday and got at least my wins recorded. What do you guys think?

Last one is a mm with MN's number 1 and I cracked under pressure a little.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM-jSdooQ3s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW77jO7LasM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwyr7I9vrnM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eNbDg90Owo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMeW7oJNCgY

things I'm working on:
-maximizing punishes, there were times where I'd throw a tilt at too high of percent and dropped a potentially stronger punish.
-overall consistency
-recovery mixup was lacking against better players
-holy **** pivot grab is omg
-omg same with egg roll
-be less dumb with djc's, no reason to DJC fair against a quick fox when he's close and out of shield
-when I was pressured I'd revert to melee Yoshi and not act out of shield enough, or like ya know, at all :/
-oh yea, uthrow FFs, dthrow floaties

@ V3ctorMan @ Deviljho @ Alphicans @ Scatz whoever else who is fairly prominent here that I missed

and @ TomBoComBo of course!

Thanks for asking me! :D I didn't get to watch all of your matches, but what I saw, I saw throughout.

Definitely work on your recovery options. As far as I saw, you really only used Egg Roll as recovery. Use eggs to pressure them on stage, and that helps out a ton. Two eggs is enough IMO. The proceed to use egg roll, or aerials or whatever to recover. Rising aerials are also nice mixups, especially if your opponent is chasin you off stage. Rising aerial fairs are what I usually do.

You seem to only do one thing out of throws. U air. Out of dthrow, you can do a ton of things, depending on their DI. Fair, bair, dair, dSpecial, nair, nSpecial, uair, I've done it all. I say this with everybody, but explore your options. You never know what you'll find.

That said, your uairs after dthrow are lovely.

Another point about throws... You'd randomly throw out throws other then Dthrow. Personally, I don't find much use for any other throw. But I could be wrong. Perhaps you were using them as DI mixups, audino for sure.

You move fast when you aren't fighting, like doing button checks. But when you get into the fighting you slow down. Try and keep that same speed when fighting.

About what you're working on:

- I definitely agree with that. It's a problem I have too, so I cannot harp on you too much for it, but definitely work on it. (So will I xD)
-I believe I touched on that.
-I touched on that.
-Heck yes it is. I'm working on that as well.
-This one is the kicker. Yes it is amazing. DO NOT just go hog wild with it. Add some egg roll into your game. It works SUPER well for combos and tech chases. Approaches... Not as much. It works well, but smart, good players can counter it and punish.
Everything else in that list, I agree with.

Overall, @ didds , your Yoshi is quite good dude! Keep at it! Also, congrats on the seventh place!