Project M - Yoshi matches

[Dinowulf]

Would it be to much trouble to ask to CNC my matches..

 

[Deviljho]

Thanks for the analysis!
I'll try using Bair and Fair more often, but I never feel safe using Fair since I usually wiff it whenever I try to use it, I'll try to find safer ways to approach with it or use it in combos or something though. Also thanks for telling me about Dthrow->Down-B. I usually only use down special after a grounded Dair since the hitstun for it lasts so long, but I never thought about using it after Dthrow so I'll definitely experiment a lot with that! I have a really bad habit of trying to Up-Smash out of Egg Roll, so I'll for sure experiment with the Egg Roll exits you mentioned too

Again thanks for the analysis, I'll try to keep everything you said in mind the next time I play. :3

No problem! I understand whiffing fairs, it happens to all of us. XD Also, try and experiment. You never know what you can do. I've done some pretty jank things, like Edge-Cancelled bair -> fair ->fsmash. Also, as a note, against some characters, Sweet Spot Dair (Which yields 48% or so damage) or even semi sweetspot -> Fsmash can be a thing, at lower percents. I look forward to see what you'll do in the future!

@ Dinowulf Did you want me to review your matches too?

 

[Deviljho]

-bump- Double post. Sorry bout that.

 

[Dinowulf]

Yea id like some advice if you don't mind. I have plans to put yoshi on the map in pm at CEO.

 

[didds]

http://www.twitch.tv/fluxwolf/c/4021618 set where I go Yoshi second match, don't do the best, but feedback is nice

http://www.twitch.tv/fluxwolf/b/517390469 firt match is 22:22, second is 26:15, third is 29:30, 4th is 2:26:45, 5th 3:37:05, 6th 3:42:30

thanks everybody for the feedback

 

[Kaysick]

http://www.twitch.tv/fluxwolf/c/4021618 set where I go Yoshi second match, don't do the best, but feedback is nice

http://www.twitch.tv/fluxwolf/b/517390469 firt match is 22:22, second is 26:15, third is 29:30, 4th is 2:26:45, 5th 3:37:05, 6th 3:42:30

thanks everybody for the feedback

I'll give you my feedback for the one match on the first link.

Biggest points: Only saw you use Nair once. You never used egg roll. You only attempted a grab two to three times.
SHFFL Nairs are one of Yoshi's strongest moves and is a move you need to start using. Egg roll is super good and you never used it. Never even used it to recover. Egg roll is safer than just air dodging to get back on land. You can pop out of the egg and even egg roll again or try and hit them so you can get back on stage. Egg roll can also lead to easy utilt %s and combos you need. You never grabbed MK, only missed. Throw it out more, you can easily get a dthrow > fair or dthrow > dair or dthrow > nair and get easy %s you need. One thing I noticed right after you killed MK, don't waste your DJ. Ever. MK could easily get you off the stage and there goes a stock. Also, as cool as egg edge guarding is... its not safe at all. Literally one poke and there goes your stock. I don't even use it.

 

[didds]

Thanks for the feedback, watch more, unfortunately you caught one of my worst matches of them all. I never use egg roll offensively I admit, gotta do that. I do use it for recovery though, not this silly match though. I also agree on the grabbing and nair, but I do start to use it more in the other matches.

I always shoot myself in the foot by nervously wasting my double jumps -_-

thanks for the feedback again

 

[Deviljho]

Yea id like some advice if you don't mind. I have plans to put yoshi on the map in pm at CEO.

Alright! I watched the third video of yours, the one that was entirely you playing, this is what I've found:

You didn't edgeguard mutch out of just hucking an egg off stage, though in later matches you learned that. Down smash is a great option for edgeguards. Spacies especially if you can predict how they're getting back. Horizontal kills are best for the spacie slime. lol

As I told Norris, egg roll has vast combo potential. Use it wisely, and your combos will be vastly improved.

Your combos seemed a bit slow... No offense, but I noticed they weren't lengthy, and what you did pull was kinda awkward. Again, please don't take offense. Perhaps L canceling, learning where each move sends opponents etc?

You dodge rolled a lot. I wanted to point that out.

You used egg lay a lot. And a couple times, you just sat there until he broke out. Try doing something? I personally don't like egg lay, but I have yet to see a use for it.

Hope that helps!

 

[Dinowulf]

Thanks for the advice. Its highly appreciated. Now I know what to focus on

 

[didds]

@ Deviljho oh boy oh boy, me next!

things I know:

more egg roll
less roll dodge
stop wasting dj
MORE NAIR
recovery mixup
grab, like a lot more
always pick purple

 

[Scatz]

@ didds - Watched your two matches on the 2nd link. Nice job overall, but it seems like you tend to have some trouble when platforms are involved. The double jumps were unintentional I'm assuming. Not only that, but whenever you tried to waveland into an attack, it got stuffed. Might want to be a little more direct with your attacks or if you're going to mindgame/bait, do it to a less degree so that your opponent isn't going to jump in and disrupt your spacing.

Also, be careful when panicking. You default to Dsmash quite a bit whenever Wolf was pressuring you pretty hard.

 

[didds]

yea, my wavelands are still really inconsistent so hopefully I can get those down and then I can pick my spots better, rather than just attacking due to me being happy for successfully wavelanding lol. I agree that Dsmash along with Dtilt are my biggest bad habit panic buttons.

 

[Deviljho]

@ Deviljho oh boy oh boy, me next!

things I know:

more egg roll
less roll dodge
stop wasting dj
MORE NAIR
recovery mixup
grab, like a lot more
always pick purple

Sure I'd be happy to help! Though you list has one flaw... Black is the best yoshi color. XD lol It really doesn't matter. True story I play black yoshi.

Well, you pointed out a couple of the things I would have told you. Egg roll, dodge roll, being careful with your dj, recovery, you got that.

Dtilt is not your only tilt. I find ftilt and utilt just as important as dtilt. Try comboing with them.

Your edgeguarding wasn't quite good. I like a mix of eggs, dtilts, and dsmashes as appropriate for edge guarding. It works for pretty much all the cast, and it's awesome when you interupt a recovery into your dsmash.

I couldn't tell if you were DI'ing right or wrong... Perhaps working on your DI could help? *I also have to work a bit on that*

Down B and Egg toss aren't your only options on the ledge. And further, don't spend a lot of time on the ledge. Drop and DJ away from the ledge, then egg roll back to catch anyone unaware, or do something else like dair or something.

Hope that helps!

 

[didds]

Sure I'd be happy to help! Though you list has one flaw... Black is the best yoshi color. XD lol It really doesn't matter. True story I play black yoshi.

Well, you pointed out a couple of the things I would have told you. Egg roll, dodge roll, being careful with your dj, recovery, you got that.

Dtilt is not your only tilt. I find ftilt and utilt just as important as dtilt. Try comboing with them.

Your edgeguarding wasn't quite good. I like a mix of eggs, dtilts, and dsmashes as appropriate for edge guarding. It works for pretty much all the cast, and it's awesome when you interupt a recovery into your dsmash.

I couldn't tell if you were DI'ing right or wrong... Perhaps working on your DI could help? *I also have to work a bit on that*

Down B and Egg toss aren't your only options on the ledge. And further, don't spend a lot of time on the ledge. Drop and DJ away from the ledge, then egg roll back to catch anyone unaware, or do something else like dair or something.

Hope that helps!

thanks a bunch, the proper DI is really difficult for me since I've only recently started competitively and it's clearly not too important when practicing tech alone. I'm not really sure the best way to edge guard with yoshi. As squirtle I go out deep and do a lot of drop zones, but I imagine it's not the same with Yoshi. I'm usually pretty good at grabbing ledge, but then I'm lost from there on.

 

[Deviljho]

thanks a bunch, the proper DI is really difficult for me since I've only recently started competitively and it's clearly not too important when practicing tech alone. I'm not really sure the best way to edge guard with yoshi. As squirtle I go out deep and do a lot of drop zones, but I imagine it's not the same with Yoshi. I'm usually pretty good at grabbing ledge, but then I'm lost from there on.

DI is important to get you out of combos and to help you live longer. Practicing it in friendlies is a good way to make it second nature in competition. As for edge guarding, I just like to keep their movement limited by throwing eggs off stage at them, which with yoshi it's easy due to the control he has over the toss. When they get close throw them just slightly as to cover the ledge with the egg. If it hits, it pops them up which is nice for following up. If they avoid it, it put's them in a bad spot to be edgeguarded. Be creative! I once saw V3ctorman (in melee, but the principle still applies) hit an offstage fox with an egg and immediately hit them with a fair.

I did notice that your wavelands were smooth and flashy. I forgot to mention that before.

 

[didds]

DI is important to get you out of combos and to help you live longer. Practicing it in friendlies is a good way to make it second nature in competition. As for edge guarding, I just like to keep their movement limited by throwing eggs off stage at them, which with yoshi it's easy due to the control he has over the toss. When they get close throw them just slightly as to cover the ledge with the egg. If it hits, it pops them up which is nice for following up. If they avoid it, it put's them in a bad spot to be edgeguarded. Be creative! I once saw V3ctorman (in melee, but the principle still applies) hit an offstage fox with an egg and immediately hit them with a fair.

I did notice that your wavelands were smooth and flashy. I forgot to mention that before.

I recently watched a tech skill video by @aMSa and he was just doing amazing things with his melee yoshi and wavelanding and it just made me think about how much movement potential Yoshi has. You'll notice that even though I shoot myself in the foot at times I'm still really working at wavelanding consistently. Yoshi's neutral is so much better with platforms and I love it.

 

[Deviljho]

I recently watched a tech skill video by @aMSa and he was just doing amazing things with his melee yoshi and wavelanding and it just made me think about how much movement potential Yoshi has. You'll notice that even though I shoot myself in the foot at times I'm still really working at wavelanding consistently. Yoshi's neutral is so much better with platforms and I love it.

I assume you're talking about the red essence? That's an awesome video. Yeah, be careful about your wavelands. I'm not proficient with them in combat so I only use them after an opponent has been ko'd. But they can be used in combat. I have done Waveland bair -> ftilt before.

 

[Kaysick]

To comment on using ftilts, I noticed you can actually spam ftilt on spacies depending on the DI. Got like 50% on a Falco yesterday

 

[didds]

yup red essence is the one.

I want to master wavelands, they're too good. Waveland Uair is beautiful.

 

[Deviljho]

To comment on using ftilts, I noticed you can actually spam ftilt on spacies depending on the DI. Got like 50% on a Falco yesterday

I can say the same about u tilt. Them tilts man.

yup red essence is the one.

I want to master wavelands, they're too good. Waveland Uair is beautiful.

Waveland uair? Sounds sweet!

 

[didds]

Waveland uair? Sounds sweet!

I just remember watching old Vectorman videos and he would waveland fast fall uair and catch a lot of people off guard. And uair is a perfect combo starter.

 

[Deviljho]

I just remember watching old Vectorman videos and he would waveland fast fall uair and catch a lot of people off guard. And uair is a perfect combo starter.

His videos inspired me to learn shield drop -> uair. That's a nice one. I've never really done anything out of uair though...

 

[didds]

You do what your heart desires. I suppose it's also pretty dependent on percent, but Yoshi is definitely not lacking in combo options.

 

[Deviljho]

Definitly not. He's got quite a bit of combos, most of them lead to kills.

 

[TensenROB]

http://www.twitch.tv/fluxwolf/c/4021618 set where I go Yoshi second match, don't do the best, but feedback is nice

http://www.twitch.tv/fluxwolf/b/517390469 firt match is 22:22, second is 26:15, third is 29:30, 4th is 2:26:45, 5th 3:37:05, 6th 3:42:30

thanks everybody for the feedback

In the first match I saw MK dash attack often, which is a weak approach option because Yoshi can CC it up to 101%. Most of MK's attacks can be CC'd to high %s, except his d-air (1-34%) and his u-smash can't be CC'd at all, but both of them can be punished with n-air OOS before he can shield.

 

[didds]

In the first match I saw MK dash attack often, which is a weak approach option because Yoshi can CC it up to 101%. Most of MK's attacks can be CC'd to high %s, except his d-air (1-34%) and his u-smash can't be CC'd at all, but both of them can be punished with n-air OOS before he can shield.

That's really good to keep in mind, I've really been focusing on incorporating CCing more since all my characters can utilize it well. I just got some more footage so I'll post it as soon as I record when each of my Yoshi matches start. I mostly used Diddy, but Yoshi was a close second. I think my Yoshi was a little more solid this time around, at least when I didn't lose focus -_-

edit: didn't wanna dub post

http://www.twitch.tv/fluxwolf/b/518759981
first: 38:02
second: 42:02
third:46:25
fourth: 1:09:07
fifth: 2:14:36
sixth: 2:18:47
seventh,doubles, 2:36:04
eighth 3:31:05

thanks again all who provide help

 

[TensenROB]

That's really good to keep in mind, I've really been focusing on incorporating CCing more since all my characters can utilize it wll. I just got some more footage so I'll post it as soon as I record when each of my Yoshi matches start. I mostly used Diddy, but Yoshi was a close second. I think my Yoshi was a little more solid this time around, at least when I didn't lose focus -_-

edit: didn't wanna dub post

http://www.twitch.tv/fluxwolf/b/518759981
first: 38:02
second: 42:02
third:46:25
fourth: 1:09:07
fifth: 2:14:36
sixth: 2:18:47
seventh,doubles, 2:36:04
eighth 3:31:05

thanks again all who provide help

I noticed that you generally used d-tilt more than the other tilts against even at high %s. On-stage d-tilt is a great move to get away from your opponent and it has very low endlag compared to f-tilt and u-tilt but it doesn't lead into any combos. f-tilt and u-tilt are weak against fast fallers at low %s because they can tech before you can follow up or even punish the endlag if they're at a very low %, but they come out earlier (f-tilt and u-tilt come out on frame 6 while d-tilt comes out on frame 8) and they can start juggling as early as 45% vs Wolf. Same thing with d-throw vs u-throw, u-throw is a better option for low %s because they can tech before any of your moves can come out, but u-throw will at least lead into a u-tilt or f-tilt, while d-throw starts having potential for followup around 45% vs Wolf. d-throw to d-smash is really good and starts working very early if they have bad DI. Hell it's even possibly to chaingrab with u-throw at low %s! I mention grabs a lot because I think spacies can CC nair for a long time.

 

[Alphicans]

I think you can get a CG with uthrow on spacies, but it'll require pivot grabs. I've only ever tried on cpus though.

 

[Deviljho]

I think you can get a CG with uthrow on spacies, but it'll require pivot grabs. I've only ever tried on cpus though.

I've tried CG ing spacies. I think you're right.

 

[norris3942]

If anyone has some free time I have another set that I would like some critique on: http://www.twitch.tv/clockworkstudios/b/519230986?t=8h52m

I'm not really used to the tournament scene I guess, cuz I was a stupid amount of nervous during this set (my right hand was actually shaking a bit and I couldn't djc and waveland well at all, haha) Any word on what any of you think I could do better I would appreciate a lot though.

 

[whatgoingon]

can somebody explain oos for me, what it is and how its used?

 

[TensenROB]

can somebody explain oos for me, what it is and how its used?

OOS stands for out of shield, meaning options that Yoshi has while in his shield. PM Yoshi got the ability to jump out of his shield so he can jump or djc aerials, and he can up-smash oos because he can go shield->jumpsquat->up-smash. He can also wavedash oos and has a ton of other things.

 

[whatgoingon]

thanks that clears everything up haha I feel enlightened

 

[Dinowulf]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTAf7zHSa58 (Complete Video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdveycK642g (Complete Video Until 24:00)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70CiCvYN0O4 (18:40 - 25:38)

My Apoligy for the Video quality. I grabbed these from twitch converted them then uploaded them.

CNC Would be nice please.

 

[TensenROB]

I have a few netplay matches that I'd like some critique on, all vs Bowser. There was 30ms ping with 4 buffer which isn't much delay. I lost most of the matches but here's a 2 loss / 2 win split. The rest of the matches are on the same channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqqfmaf5Flg - Loss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2JsSgh9lhI - Loss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9b1M5Vzpm4 - Win
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0YxViP0hYY - Win

The Bowser matchup feels very different from what I get against other characters. I didn't like approaching him so you'll see me tossing eggs a lot. He's not easy to approach at low % because he doesn't flinch from dair or fair which are my go-to approaches (same with dash attack). At that % he can retaliate with his up-b whirling fortress even if he doesn't shield. In hindsight I should've approached with nair more because he's knocked back at all percents. DJC'ing aerials felt unsafe, in one of the matches I DJC a uair but Bowser did a nair which armoured through it and knocked me off. He can use fortress OOS which can kill Yoshi at around 100% on the initial hitbox which comes out on frame 4. None of Yoshi's aerials are safe on shield unless they're rising because they have 7-13 frames of l-cancelled landing lag, meaning Bowser can retaliate with fortress before Yoshi can shield. Bowser's aerials have a long landing lag so it's always possible to punish them. He tended to up-b whenever he was close to me on the ground but I was slow in punishing him / not punishing him at all. Pivot grab is amazing in this matchup if Bowser approaches with anything but flame cancel.

 

[Alphicans]

For the amount you're grabbing him you should be four stocking this bowser lol. First off I honestly don't think you're following up on dthrow fast enough, secondly you should do DJC uair as a followup on bowser, that should work. Also you can space bair on shield and should be your go to move in the m/u. You can overwhelm him pretty hard with bair and if you poke his shield (which you will) it can lead to free usmashes/uairs/w.e you want honestly. Additionally to dthrow, depending on his DI you can try usmashing or utilting him -> more usmash or uair.

 

[Dinowulf]

I would also recommending more egg throws and use the sweet spot of yoshis down B to your advantage. I would also recommend cutting back on the ground pound(air)

 

[TomBoComBo]

I have a few netplay matches that I'd like some critique on, all vs Bowser. There was 30ms ping with 4 buffer which isn't much delay. I lost most of the matches but here's a 2 loss / 2 win split. The rest of the matches are on the same channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqqfmaf5Flg - Loss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2JsSgh9lhI - Loss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9b1M5Vzpm4 - Win
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0YxViP0hYY - Win

The Bowser matchup feels very different from what I get against other characters. I didn't like approaching him so you'll see me tossing eggs a lot. He's not easy to approach at low % because he doesn't flinch from dair or fair which are my go-to approaches (same with dash attack). At that % he can retaliate with his up-b whirling fortress even if he doesn't shield. In hindsight I should've approached with nair more because he's knocked back at all percents. DJC'ing aerials felt unsafe, in one of the matches I DJC a uair but Bowser did a nair which armoured through it and knocked me off. He can use fortress OOS which can kill Yoshi at around 100% on the initial hitbox which comes out on frame 4. None of Yoshi's aerials are safe on shield unless they're rising because they have 7-13 frames of l-cancelled landing lag, meaning Bowser can retaliate with fortress before Yoshi can shield. Bowser's aerials have a long landing lag so it's always possible to punish them. He tended to up-b whenever he was close to me on the ground but I was slow in punishing him / not punishing him at all. Pivot grab is amazing in this matchup if Bowser approaches with anything but flame cancel.

Bowser is simple low percentages.... you downthrow and then dash under him and upsmash. And this stays viable until he's like 160%

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I have a few netplay matches that I'd like some critique on, all vs Bowser. There was 30ms ping with 4 buffer which isn't much delay. I lost most of the matches but here's a 2 loss / 2 win split. The rest of the matches are on the same channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqqfmaf5Flg - Loss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2JsSgh9lhI - Loss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9b1M5Vzpm4 - Win
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0YxViP0hYY - Win

The Bowser matchup feels very different from what I get against other characters. I didn't like approaching him so you'll see me tossing eggs a lot. He's not easy to approach at low % because he doesn't flinch from dair or fair which are my go-to approaches (same with dash attack). At that % he can retaliate with his up-b whirling fortress even if he doesn't shield. In hindsight I should've approached with nair more because he's knocked back at all percents. DJC'ing aerials felt unsafe, in one of the matches I DJC a uair but Bowser did a nair which armoured through it and knocked me off. He can use fortress OOS which can kill Yoshi at around 100% on the initial hitbox which comes out on frame 4. None of Yoshi's aerials are safe on shield unless they're rising because they have 7-13 frames of l-cancelled landing lag, meaning Bowser can retaliate with fortress before Yoshi can shield. Bowser's aerials have a long landing lag so it's always possible to punish them. He tended to up-b whenever he was close to me on the ground but I was slow in punishing him / not punishing him at all. Pivot grab is amazing in this matchup if Bowser approaches with anything but flame cancel.

Entirely too much fair. Fair should be your least used aerial, honestly. If you wanna hit stuff in front of you, you should usually nair. Fair is for spiking offstage, or setting up tech chases on airborne opponents, it's not a good default followup or approach. The grabs at the beginning of game1 were good, do more of that, but follow up with djc uairs instead of going for fairs. Grabs are the bane of Bowser's existence, and Yoshi's grab game is too good for him to handle.

You also use too much downb. It's a habit I catch myself doing a lot too, but it's soooo easy to punish. Honestly, only use it if you think you really need to touch the ground NOW. In terms of actually trying to hit opponents below you, there are much better options. You really shouldn't try to hit anyone with it unless you know they're committed to something you will beat, and most characters can beat you with a well spaced uair.

 

[Dinowulf]

Bowser is simple low percentages.... you downthrow and then dash under him and upsmash. And this stays viable until he's like 160%

I saw that post you made on my video thanks for that. Now i have a counter attack for lucas.