Project M Social Thread

[humble]

<3 SheLL with dat logic.

 

[Mew2King]

please make the changes that I asked. It will make the game better.

 

[Shell]

Yeah, don't worry about it. Now that you've mentioned those things we'll look into them soon.

All I was asking was if there were some things you enjoyed. We like getting feedback, both negative (but constructive) and positive. It keeps us working harder, faster, stronger etc. etc.

 

[DZLE]

Oh but that Kanye though?

Spoiler

originally daft of coz but when I read it i imagined the kanye song

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

"L-canceling is too hard (esp the almost-no-lag l-cancel where you have almost zero lag and you are flashing yellow or something) and needs to be easier. Seriously. (I tried it with ganon once and it was way harder than it is in Melee, way too hard to do consistently imo)"

I can tell you right now the two arguably correct reasons why L-Canceling is off; Hitlag and Landing Detection.

I don't know if we can fix L-Cancel during or after or w/e hitlag, but Landing Detection is...supposedly on the way.

And uh...UpB "grabs too high"? I'm guessing you mean it goes too far vertically? I dunno. lol

 

[[TSON]]

Idea for Ivysaur: Razor Wind? Apparently it can learn it in G/S through breeding, so...Ivy, I dunno, spins its leaves really fast to create wind?

HEY GUYS LETS SUGGEST MORE THINGS FROM MINUS

It would be hilarious from a competitive Pokemon player standpoint if Charizard could use the one move that ruins any chance he will ever have of being used on a competitive Pokemon team. (I miss OU/BL Charizard )

The floating rocks dug into Charizard!
Charizard lost 50% HP.

 

[Strong Badam]

L-canceling is too hard (esp the almost-no-lag l-cancel where you have almost zero lag and you are flashing yellow or something) and needs to be easier. Seriously. (I tried it with ganon once and it was way harder than it is in Melee, way too hard to do consistently imo)

There needs to be buffering with C-stick rolling. Often times I would, just like in Melee, hold the C stick in a direction to automatically roll ASAP, but in this game there is no auto-rolling with the C stick. That definitely needs to be added

this is because of landing detection & the fact that you can't l-cancel while in hitlag.

i agree completely, but the problem is the C-stick inputs are considered a button by the Wii, which is WTF. there's no way we can program this, unfortunately.

 

[stingers]

A word of advice -- don't keep your mind so narrow that you hate on the WIP Ivy. People hated on a ton of our Snake ideas (one grenade?! That will ruin the character!) and he's now one of the most hyped characters in the project. We're not afraid to think outside the box especially for brawl newcomers if we think the result will be something unique, enjoyable, and competitive in the environment we're creating.

I'm not certain that this Lucario idea would even make it into testing since it looks like it'd be very challenging or impossible to code all of those subactions and extra hitboxes, but the point is that we'll at least listen to and entertain every idea.

First of all, removing a grenade from snake is a positive change as far as I see it, that just means he's more focused on CQC instead of projectile camping which is not only more true to the character, but more true to melee as well (even Falco couldn't effectively projectile camp in that game).

And I actually do have an issue with all of the "thinking outside of the box" you're trying to do here. In my mind, the goal of the project was to, well, emulate melee to the best of your ability. I think that's a really cool thing to do, and I support that project heavily. And with something like that comes a lot of freedom from a design standpoint for characters who weren't in Melee when trying to "Melee-fy" them, but from what I see and read in this thread on the daily, most of the WBR members speaking in this thread aren't really aiming to Melee-fy any of the brawl characters, but you're simply adding more gimmicks to them...which seems to be the exact opposite of what you should be doing (not that every WBR player is like this, Jcaeser in particular seems to have a very strong design philosophy for this project).

Of course, many of the WBR members are in there as "leftovers", so to say, from Brawl+ and Brawl- so it's not heavily surprising that you guys are rooted in the "Hey, what's something really cool and unique we could give to this character" mentality instead of the "Hey, what's something we could change about this character to make them seem like a Melee character". Was there anything even close to the idea of pummel absorbs in melee? No, and come on now, something like that really has no place in melee. For something like Brawl-, that'd be an awesome inclusion and it'd be very fun to play with. For Project M, it's just clashing in an ugly way with the established design goal of this project (to remake Melee).

All of our ideas go through lots of playtesting by Melee players who love Melee, and if they don't like an idea then it's taken out. I'm rather surprised that you haven't learned that by now.

tl:dr... Haters gonna hate.

I'm surprised you're acting so condescending towards someone who's just trying to give feedback, but then again I don't have a colored name so that's not surprising. If you'll look at my join date you can see I've been here before Brawl was even announced. I've been a competitive melee player for 4 years now, and yes, I still play it in tournament to this day. So, I'd like to ask you to consider all viewpoints here instead of picking and choosing ones that support your ideas, because I can guarantee you, that's how you're gonna make a game that the community loves.

 

[Strong Badam]

i kinda agree.

 

[Shell]

In my personal opinion, the Melee environment is as follows:

A fast-paced game with flowing, organic movement where the player has a great degree of control over his character due to the technical skill that he's achieved. The balance of offense and defense changes depending on the exact matchup and playstyle, but overall tends to favor offense slightly. Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding due to ledge techs. The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction or at least amazing reading.

That is the environment we want to create. We're not trying to exactly emulate Melee other than the existing top / high tier characters -- the rest of the cast all have pretty big holes in their gameplay or too few options in general and require a bit of expansion. I apologize if you misinterpreted the goal of the project, but if you want to perfectly emulate Melee you can just pop in the Melee disc and play. When I say Melee-ify brawl characters, I don't mean that we copy/pasta Melee moves and strategies onto them. Instead we try to make them totally fresh, new characters that ultimately work in that specific environment which we all love.

Are there a lot of 'gimmicky' ideas thrown around? Certainly. Of the characters we've nearly 'finished' though, how many can you say contain gimmicks more so than any existing Melee character? And what, truly, is a gimmick defined as in the first place? If the Melee ATs hadn't been handed to us on stone tablets from Sakurai himself they would all seem pretty gimmicky.

Let me hear what you would do to, say, Charizard or any other Brawl newcomer. This isn't a snarky rhetorical comment, I really am interested in what you'd do.

 

[Archangel]

I kinda agree but also disagree on some things. All in all I think the creative parts when it comes to Melee-fing brawl characters are the best part of this project. To do this you must thing outside the box but you also have to think inside a boundary. Once something goes against the very core of Melee you've gone too far imo. So far though I haven't seen many things hat make me think "That would never fly in melee" Until then I have no complaints.

I understand there is a certain natural sense of importance that comes with being apart of something historic and important like this project. However you must not forget who and what you are working for otherwise this project will not reach its full potential and all will be lost in the end.

 

[[TSON]]

In my mind, the goal of the project was to

Andddddd, gtfo.

(P.S. The WBR doesn't exist anymore)

 

[stingers]

Well here are my thoughts after 15 minutes:

Charizard:
- Remove gliding, first of all, but I suspect you guys have already done that. Keep 3 jumps however.
- Remove ability to move fire up and down. Keep the same other wise (narrower and longer then bowsers)
- Not sure if you guys are removing Down-Bs or not, that's a choice that could go either way. Personally I'd leave them as a trio and don't enable individual pokemon. I wouldn't give people an option between all 3 or just one because having a move that does literally nothing is...well, just plain unprofessional.
- Change the stamina system to not affect KB and only affect damage dealt.
- Speed up Dsmash startup, same cooldown
- Speed up Ftilt startup, but reduce KB growth
- Give the flub hitbox on fair actual kb/stun
- Probably give Charizard a sex kick on his nair in some form or fashion. His nair can't work like Pikachu's does because he doesn't have the speed to approach with it. He kind of needs that aerial lingering hitbox to be competitive.

Hey, TheSilenceOfNoOne.

Is this okay to call it melee 2.0?
Yes.

now stop being a ****, kthx

 

[Shell]

TSON was a bit crass there, but to be fair the mission statement on the first page simply reads:

"Project M aims to achieve rich, technical, and fast gameplay married to the new brawl engine to yield a balanced, competitive, and technical version of Brawl. "

We will have a more refined, thorough mission statement updated for you soon, though.


And regarding that charizard it definitely looks very typical Melee, I'll give you that. However, it doesn't look nearly as deep, technical, unique, or fun as most of the existing top/high cast.

 

[[TSON]]

Melee 2.0, not Melee 1.1.

 

[stingers]

I think most of charizard's opportunities for damage would come through his large grab range (especially if the Brawl pivot grab system is still left in, pivot grabs would become 20x more important with people approaching through the air often which never happens in Brawl) to lead into Uthrow -> Usmash/Uair x?? chains at low %. Uthrow -> Rock Smash might work too which could potentially do like 50% at 0 lol. He can still Usmash to suck people in with a large hitbox. Fair gimps with doc bair angle which helps a lot since theres no auto ledge grab.

I think charizard would be very fun if you do the simple things I stated. people dont have to be able to cancel everything to be fun lol

and yeah TSON doesn't seem to grasp the core principles of this project very well, if at all.
at least, not what the community thinks it is.
which might end up being a huge problem later down the line unless you guys clarify some things =p

 

[[TSON]]

and yeah TSON doesn't seem to grasp the core principles of this project very well, if at all.

In my mind, the goal of the project was to

In my mind

The community has noticed that we aren't deleting Lucas, and aren't deleting Lucario in favor of Mewtwo. That should be telling you guys something. We're obviously thinking outside of the box, but in the room, in some situations, as well. We're keeping core gameplay intact, along with the high tiers' gameplay. Everything else is subject to change, be it moderate or significant.

Now that we have that cleared up, any further questions?

 

[stingers]

Good job, taking an unrelated quote and using it out of context. That really supports your argument.

All you have to do is look at the OP, and all the Melee professionals that are being brought in on the project to see this is Melee with a new skin. You said it yourself, that the high tiers gameplay would be kept intact.

All I was saying from the start is not to go overboard with your changes. Ivysaur's absorb pummel is a bit overboard. Lucario's swords dance is a bit overboard (though yes, I realize this was just an idea and not something that was confirmed to be in the game).

Just pace yourselves here.

 

[Shell]

I fail to see how it's any more out of place than Pichu's self damaging attacks, or GW's many judgement options (apple?). Melee wasn't such a cohesive, perfectly in-the-box package as some of you guys make it out to be. Again the idea of what is a gimmick really isn't so black and white... if I had created C. Falcon from scratch (If only...) and I gave him a nipple spike, half of you would say that's stupid and unnecessary and a gimmick, and half of you would say it's awesome, unique, and adds an element of skill to his dair.... but because Sakurai did it it's unquestionably awesome.

Pummel absorb fills a very specific purpose, to add more reward to Ivy's risky grab game, and to top if off it's very in line with the character and doesn't break any of the core aspects I mentioned before. Could we just make her grab faster, or do more damage? I suppose so.

Anyways, I think that what you're saying is true, that we shouldn't fixate on gimmicks or let ourselves get carried away from the core gameplay we want to achieve. The only difference is in how liberally we define gimmicks.

 

[DZLE]

Does ftilt still set up for a nice fair to the face?

 

[shanus]

It's 6:30AM, so I'm going to be brief. Most brawl characters do not have transferability to a melee environment. It's fairly obvious, you take a char like ivysaur as an example, and how will she fair against melee fox? She won't. More often than not, this is not a simple fix. For her, a lot of her moves are slower, walling / camping moves which are non-ideal for the goal of this project (and so slow that she can be abused due to it). Solely speeding her up isn't a good idea, either.

So just like snake, who now plays awesome, this is where thinking outside the box comes in (Lol time for pun-ishment). We do a lot of testing until something really stands out as a working design principle. For example, sonic had a lot of different test builds until we discovered a fantastic property we could alter on his homing attack. Additionally, we have two camps in the PMBR, conservative and aggressive. These two camps tend to keep each other fairly in line, but also tend to create the best mix because its really a fantastic way to brew ideas.

So overall, I know when you view this thread you see so many absurd ideas and think that clearly everything is under consideration and will be crazy, but there is a method and design principles in the back end that have a same clear goal for these new characters: melee environment wherein they can compete. While 95% of the ideas in this thread are indeed, not considered, sometimes one players idea does inspiration to something we hadn't considered before and that is valuable. So please don't concern yourself and take everything we say, especially regarding new characters ideas so literally. Some players, even those in the PMBR, do have personal opinions, and sometimes we think players ideas are hilarious or fun and join in the convo. Does that mean it will be instated into the game? No. Everything here is a lot of work and we spend a lot of time discussing each and every character. Remember, some chars work beautifully out of the box like lucas, but others are more work like snake and lolimar

So stingers, if you have more comments and concerns on this topic, PM me on the irc as itll be faster for me to get things straight

 

[DZLE]

Shanus too good.

 

[JCaesar]

Well said Shanus.

Fox's Dair sucks, and is a worthless move because it has too much landing lag. Uair also has too much landing lag.

If their landing lag doesn't currently match Melee exactly (though I thought it did), it will before we release.

oh yeah jigglypuff can chain grab fox to rest or something gay. Jiggs can also plank really well with Fair. She's really unfair if you play gay with her, maybe even more so than in Melee. If I play this game, and she stays broken, I might have to play her and play gay just because it's WAY too effective to just Fair camp on the ledge and abuse up throw and rest

Jiggs has barely been touched so far. She will be brought back in line with her Melee self.

edit - Pikachu's down smash is too good.

Another thing we just haven't gotten to yet.

And uh...UpB "grabs too high"? I'm guessing you mean it goes too far vertically? I dunno. lol

I think he means Falcon can grab the ledge from too far away.

All I was saying from the start is not to go overboard with your changes. Ivysaur's absorb pummel is a bit overboard. Lucario's swords dance is a bit overboard (though yes, I realize this was just an idea and not something that was confirmed to be in the game).

Just pace yourselves here.

I more or less agree. It just depends on what you define as gimmicky. Something like Ivy's absorb pummel or Oli's pikmin getting stronger after a minute of idling don't really affect the character's playstyle much. No Oli player who's playing to win is gonna refrain from spamming side-B just so they can get slightly stronger attacks at the end of their stock.

I don't have a problem with either of those things. They just add a bit of style and uniqueness without affecting gameplay much, which is fine (as long as it's not stupid, like, say, infinite up-Bs for tether characters), but neither of them "Meleefy" the character either. "Meleefying" usually involves a combination of discouraging camping, encouraging tech chasing, increasing combo potential, weakening recovery, etc. Easier said than done when we're trying to keep characters unique and interesting as well, so we toy with ideas until we find something that works.

 

[Plum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjaYR0XsDv0 - M2K (Sheik) vs SS (Falcon)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xqJd-M3FS8 - M2K (Fox) vs Cubaisdeath (Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mc3MlOIznY - Cubaisdeath (Falco) vs SS (Falcon)

Cubaisdeath gets cool people to try our game.

 

[superyoshi888]

HEY GUYS LETS SUGGEST MORE THINGS FROM MINUS

Lol, I haven't been keeping up with Minus.

I think a lot of you guys are jumping the gun a bit early. I like absorb pummel, and I probably misinterpreted the Pikmin thing(even if I do like the idea). After, Pichu's self damage seems like it belongs in Brawl as opposed to Melee, right?

 

[shanus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjaYR0XsDv0 - M2K (Sheik) vs SS (Falcon)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xqJd-M3FS8 - M2K (Fox) vs Cubaisdeath (Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mc3MlOIznY - Cubaisdeath (Falco) vs SS (Falcon)

Cubaisdeath gets cool people to try our game.

quote for epicness

 

[Plum]

(P.S. The WBR doesn't exist anymore)

The WBR exists so the people who were in it before it died and moved to private forums can have gRAPE names

 

[superyoshi888]

Gotta say, Dreamland looks like its been Melee-ified now. Some model issues where things aren't lined up perfectly, but man, such an improvement over the last one(as I thought it would be).

<3 Falco's Shine getting the item grab sound effect back

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Something kinda crucial that no one may have noticed (including M2K and others) but I don't want any complaints about is that lasers, and many other specials that cancel upon landing do not cancel for 1 or 2 frames just before hitting the ground, but instead play the part missing from the air version for the ground one. This could screw over a lot of players, mostly spacies, and I'm on my way to fix it now; mainly got concerned because Cuba had it happen to him a LOT in the Falco video.

 

[Shadic]

*words*

And this is why Shanus is team leader. Somebody buy this man a fancy hat.

As for M2K's comments - the fact that most of his complaints were for stuff that we really haven't gotten the chance to tackle yet, I think we're doing pretty good.

 

[I R MarF]

I could see Ivysaur playing very well if she had a very high aerial mobility not to unlike Wario and Jigglypuff. Her nair should also be more like Peach's nair.

As for Charizard, idk, maybe something that makes him more approach oriented with nairs n' fairs. Perhaps make his bthrow a setup for his bair, and his dthrow a good setup for utilt then nair (or bair at higher percentages). I can also see him being able to rock smash cancel for mind games, and perhaps a uair more like ganons.

These suggestions are kind of blunt and lame, but its just some food for thought i suppose.

 

[GP&B]

1. M2K commenting on this is superb.

2. Shanus is awesome.

3. Those videos are downright sexy.

 

[JCaesar]

I could see Ivysaur playing very well if she had a very high aerial mobility not to unlike Wario and Jigglypuff.

With that bair? *shudder*

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Ivy should be Marth #2. But not a ****ty Roy. imo.

Charizard, well, in the beginning (B+) I loved nair, I already thought it was **** good but now I see how ****ing WRONG i was. NOW it's **** good. *******************

I think its main use is for spacing, considering how long the hitbox lasts and how far he extends his tail (a speedup is still needed for Nair so it will be even more effective), because originally I would only use it while turned away from the opponent due to the way it hits behind him, and it's only been improved that way. Approaching with it does seem much better now, but would his tail need to come up at a higher angle to help with approaching? Right now his tail is too low to catch someone SHing if he SHs it, I think.

I'm bad at explaining crap. This probably sounds ********. xD

 

[Bl@ckChris]

as a ganon main, I played ganon, and didn't feel right. Dair had no extending hitbox...its like ganon has no legs...or that he's already completely upright when he jumps...idk. Also with the difficulty/impossibilit of wavelanding sideways onto platforms, ganons mobility is now limited...even more.

in the end, I played ike more. His dair felt more like ganons, and just moving around felt mre like him in melee. Hope ur not done with ganon...

 

[shanus]

as a ganon main, I played ganon, and didn't feel right. Dair had no extending hitbox...its like ganon has no legs...or that he's already completely upright when he jumps...idk. Also with the difficulty/impossibilit of wavelanding sideways onto platforms, ganons mobility is now limited...even more.

in the end, I played ike more. His dair felt more like ganons, and just moving around felt mre like him in melee. Hope ur not done with ganon...

Sounds like your main concern is ganons landing detection. Thats the reason it doesn't penetrate platforms as much and you probably had more difficulty wavelanding as well?

 

[humble]

Talkin' bout pogeymons?

Ivysaur actually suffers from Zelda syndrome, where she's much better on defense but can't force approaches. This problem stems from her poor mobility.

Ivy is actually a great spacing character, however her movement has always been too limited to capitalize on it. She also has quick startup on alot of moves, 4 frame bulletseed, nair, bair, dtilt, dash attack, 5 frame ftilt, etc. Her punishment tools are good too, with bulletseed being great for punishing someone trying to combo you, and her smashes have early KO potential. She can do things like bair>pivot dtilt, or nair>bullet seed. (<3 main bias, ivy ilu girl)

What I would reccomend is not just +airspeed and startup.

I would suggest that her disjointed attacks be given longer startup, in exchange for IASA frames soon after the attack finishes (or less cooldown), and that her disjoint attacks pull opponents towards her. This would give her a great number of ways to setup tech chases, comboes, and zoning. Bair pulls them in, then nair to the ground, L cancel it and then d-tiilt pops them up, grounded vine whip pulls them back to you. Essentially, ivy should be about reading your opponents DI and punishing- all of her stuff can be DIed out of if she reads incorrectly, but she is able to make long chains and comboes as long as she controls the space around her and doesn't let her opponents out of her zone.

EDIT:
Specifically, I'd suggest these changes. The IASA frames should be specifically for jumping, or attacks, and never lead into itself.

-Bair startup doubled to 8 frames, now draws opponents towards ivy instead of knocking them away. IASA frames 20-25.
-Fair startup reduced to frame 10, now draws opponents downwards as well as towards ivy. IASA frames on 20-25.
-Dair startup kept the same (10 frames), no longer spikes or blasts opponents away, draws opponent upwards towards ivy, IASA frames 20-25.
-Uair unchanged.
-Jabs startup decreased to 5 frames, otherwise unchanged.
-Utilt startup decreased to 4 frames, endlag decreased to frame 24.
-Ftilt startup increased to 8 frames, now draws opponents back towards ivy, IASA on frames 25-30.
-Dtilt knockback decreased, now pops them up in front of ivysaur.
-Usmash unchanged.
-Fsmash startup reduced to frame 12, damage reduced to 14%.
-Dsmash startup reduced to frame 12, now draws opponent up and towards ivy, IASA on frames 25-30.
-Bulletseed unchanged.
-Razor Leaf startup reduced to frame 15, now draws opponent towards ivy. Can cancel it upon landing like Falco's laser.
-Vine Whip startup reduced to frame 14, now draws opponent down and back towards ivy if sweetspotted.

 

[L/A/W]

do characters flash in melee when they l cancel?

 

[GP&B]

No.

10no's

 

[humble]

For Charizard, I feel like his play has always been a little bit awkward. He has a few properties that stand out:

He has awesome powerful moves, both in racking damage and killing.
He has an awesome grab game due to his great grab.
He has good range on a number of his attacks.

I think the best way to strengthen zard is to find ways to better allow him to land his powerful moves (like JC flamethrower or other mixups to land his attacks) ways to make his grab game even better (dthrow that pops them up next to him, he isn't hakan, why do they blast away?) or to better his spacing game (wavedashin all day son.)