Project M Social Thread

[shanus]

We prefer to keep it to streams until we hit closer to beta. A lot still has to change, even the trailer is *REALLY* out of date.

 

[Alphatron]

Streams work so long as the people who watch them aren't the people who expect perfection from the get go.

 

[Cyan_Blau]

So, if there has very much to be changed, it has to be changed. You can't do anything to let it come out faster another then waiting!

And the work they posted here the time I looked over the forum is pretty much and very great and the trailer is really out of date ... xD

 

[GP&B]

IIRC, SHeLL said that balance would be around high tiers. There's very simple things you can do to nerf top tier characters like mentioned before. The rest would be brought up to that level and possibly given new tactics.

Also, was this project not taking any more 64 moves besides Kirby Nair, Pikachu Bair, and others I might have missed? Link could at least afford to get his 64 dash attack back since it's always sucked in every iteration after. Generally, most characters' dash attacks that were crappy at one point got made useful in Brawl+. Link's still fails.
His Fair doesn't need to be like 64's really, but it would be nice if it was actually meant to kill like it used to in 64 and Melee (although it seems to kill at way to late in Melee). Brawl+'s is insulting, even though the Link community already proposed a change to it.
Another thing, am I the only one who felt like 64 and Melee Link's Nair and Bair actually stretched his legs out farther? Maybe not Bair, but Nair feels really short in Brawl.

And now I remember when I asked if this project would make almost all of every character's moves useful, like Mario's DTilt, one of the most worthless moves in Smash history. I'm not asking for them all to have universal purpose, but for moves that weren't ever useful have some situational (not match-up related) uses. Ganondorf's Warlock Punch and UTilt are a joke.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Leaf(i think if it wasn't it was Falco400) said B+ had the same problem with people saying make useless moves more useful, they didn't do it, I don't remember why but it was a good reason. I think it would be stupid to make every move useful, there has never been a character in a fighting game ever with nothing but useful moves (not even MK).

 

[matt4300]

IIRC, SHeLL said that balance would be around high tiers. There's very simple things you can do to nerf top tier characters like mentioned before. The rest would be brought up to that level and possibly given new tactics.

Also, was this project not taking any more 64 moves besides Kirby Nair, Pikachu Bair, and others I might have missed? Link could at least afford to get his 64 dash attack back since it's always sucked in every iteration after. Generally, most characters' dash attacks that were crappy at one point got made useful in Brawl+. Link's still fails.
His Fair doesn't need to be like 64's really, but it would be nice if it was actually meant to kill like it used to in 64 and Melee (although it seems to kill at way to late in Melee). Brawl+'s is insulting, even though the Link community already proposed a change to it.
Another thing, am I the only one who felt like 64 and Melee Link's Nair and Bair actually stretched his legs out farther? Maybe not Bair, but Nair feels really short in Brawl.
QUOTE]

What are you smokein? Links run attack in melee and brawl+ was pretty sweet. Don't use it until the enemy is in the air... Brawl+'s never stops comboing @_@... You hit with a run attack and you get a kill.

From Sklers link guide..

"3. Dash Attack
Oh yes, the dash attack. This solid launcher is often underestimated because when used outside of combos it's generally a bad idea. In a combo the dash attack has an insane amount of range, great speed and a decent trajectory. Link wants his opponent to be above him at all times, and the dash attack does that perfectly. Its only downside is lag, but if you're playing Link you might start seeing that as a recurring theme."

 

[GwJ]

Wait, what's a jab reset again?

 

[Gardevior]

When you jab an opponent on the ground and they are forced to go through the standing up animation to stand up, unable to roll or getup attack.

 

[ETWIST51294]

A better name is "Forced Get Up". We were saying how jab reset sounds stupid in this other thread.

 

[Gardevior]

Doesn't roll off the tongue as easy. Or maybe just I've been calling it jab reset for ever.

 

[SiD]

No, forced get up sounds stupid

 

[ValTroX]

read shamus quote on magnus, that's jab reset

 

[GP&B]

What are you smokein? Links run attack in melee and brawl+ was pretty sweet. Don't use it until the enemy is in the air... Brawl+'s never stops comboing @_@... You hit with a run attack and you get a kill.

From Sklers link guide..

"3. Dash Attack
Oh yes, the dash attack. This solid launcher is often underestimated because when used outside of combos it's generally a bad idea. In a combo the dash attack has an insane amount of range, great speed and a decent trajectory. Link wants his opponent to be above him at all times, and the dash attack does that perfectly. Its only downside is lag, but if you're playing Link you might start seeing that as a recurring theme."

I suppose I never found the practicality of it before ^_^;. I still retain my statement on the other moves. Brawl+ Fair sucks and Link mainers had already proposed a change there. I still would like to know from someone if they believe that Brawl Link's Nair and Bair are shorter than they were previously.

 

[ETWIST51294]

IDK, they're both dumb. Forced Get Up just makes more sense. I like Jab Reset because I've been saying it for so long.

 

[shanus]

Jab reset because its a jab reset.

 

[Gardevior]

A better name is "Forced Get Up".

I like Jab Reset because I've been saying it for so long.

I'm getting mixed signals here...

 

[ETWIST51294]

I like Jab Reset better but Forced Get Up is a better name.

 

[VietGeek]

Jab reset because its a jab reset.

But other moves can do it too...

in Barlw

Sakurai Angles have rights too you know!

I think it would be stupid to make every move useful, there has never been a character in a fighting game ever with nothing but useful moves (not even MK).

I could've sworn you said you played Melee Marth...o_o

 

[Archangel]

Leaf(i think if it wasn't it was Falco400) said B+ had the same problem with people saying make useless moves more useful, they didn't do it, I don't remember why but it was a good reason. I think it would be stupid to make every move useful, there has never been a character in a fighting game ever with nothing but useful moves (not even MK).

agreed. I think not being able to just press any button in any situation and have success is 1 thing that separated Smash games from other fighters.

as for idea's on balancing low tiers there was a thread months ago in melee discussion that had some idea's if melee was ever hacked for balancing.

 

[Gardevior]

I could've sworn you said you played Melee Marth...o_o

I mean, Marth's..(thinking)..dancing blade is pretty lackluster.

 

[DarkDragoon]

I could've sworn you said you played Melee Marth...o_o

>_> Yeah, Marth can't use his...uhh...
...
Hmm.


>.> ****.
-DD

 

[VietGeek]

agreed. I think not being able to just press any button in any situation and have success is 1 thing that separated Smash games from other fighters.

way to over-exaggerate what is considered "useful" <_<

also what fighters are you playing rofl actually i should ask who the hell ur playing them with xD

I mean, Marth's..(thinking)..dancing blade is pretty lackluster.

compared to the rest of Marth's moveset...yeah obv

but it's still useful and is good for mix-up games. it's a ****ty move but nothing compared to ganon utilt, roy utilt, **** like that lol

i mean really the standard for "useful" moves is really kinda low in Smash since the game is largely based on improvisation. every little thing can help for those filler moves.

Also Forced Get-Up just makes more sense as Jab Resets would imply...that only jabs induce them. Even in Melee this isn't the case. I had forgotten that Roy's tippers (or flubs) induce this same state, so does his DED, which is one way it differs from Marth's DB (DB sweeps downed opponents, DED forces a get-up...usually not in the favor of the continuation of DED lol).

 

[Gardevior]

Roy and Ganon have utilts?

*tests*

WHOA!

 

[VietGeek]

oh i thought it was usmash input reject

 

[Archangel]

jab reset is confusing to people who don't know wtf it means. like myself 2 years ago LOL.

also as for pressing random moves to escape. lets look at some games. mortal kombat for instance. back in the day I never liked the idea of players making combacks by blocking 1 of my attack and high punching me 20000 times -_-. However most games had a block stun or slide effect that would leave you open to any attack if you were blocked or slide you opponent safely out of range. except in recent years games like streetfighter have evolved. Some games like tekken still havent changed enough.

 

[GP&B]

I take it back that Brawl+ Mario's DTilt is awful. It's an excellent setup move sometimes. I think they made dash attack better in Brawl+ too. I'm pretty sure it's terrible in Melee and Barlw along with DTilt which was far more situational, especially concerning edgeguarding where FTilt >>> DTilt.

What I'm saying is that moves that are never used should be provided with some usage given that the character doesn't already have enough utility. Fox, for example, probably doesn't need Fair helped as he has great options already. When buffing characters that were low in Melee, however, I'd take currently useless moves and possibly improve them.

 

[Revven]

Improving useless moves even slightly to give them some situational use buffs them in an unintended way that you may never thought of could happen. Say, you increase the hitbox size of Jigg's Sing to give it some better use than edge canceling it for the lulz. The unintended effect would be that it will then be better to edge cancel it due to the increase in size to keep the opponent from being able to hit you while you're on the ledge, creating a form of a "plank" so to speak. Of course, that is just a hypothetical example, doesn't mean ot would happen. I'm just illustrating a point that there's better ways to buff characters than to make moves that they have that are useless even have some small usage. Any amount of use has any amount of chance of buffing them in an unintended way.

It's better to buff a character in their strengths rather than their weaknesses, because when you buff weaknesses they lose what makes them that character that separates them from the others. It's the same way with nerfing, if you nerf a character's move too much that is too good, it makes them feel less of who they are or what style they are (take a gander back at MK's old 'nado in Brawl+, it had a ton of nerfs on it that made it useless when they weren't intending on making it completely useless but the nerfs given to it that were thought to be "small" actually greatly effected its usage).

 

[Archangel]

What I'm saying is that moves that are never used should be provided with some usage given that the character doesn't already have enough utility. Fox, for example, probably doesn't need Fair helped as he has great options already. When buffing characters that were low in Melee, however, I'd take currently useless moves and possibly improve them.

fair statement. When put like that it makes more sense to give ****ty characters more options/a chance this time.

@falco400. buffing jiggs in that way would be like giving samus a full charged neutral B. It's a buff that wouldn't happen. However I do see your point and effects like that are more than possible, actually i'm positive they will happen but that's why we have testers for.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I could've sworn you said you played Melee Marth...o_o

I play Falcon, and have you ever heard of a usmash? Maybe a dsmash? They're both garbage moves for Marth.

 

[ValTroX]

but they have their uses ET, they are not ubberly garbage, like when you're chain-grabbing a spacie for some percent and then *BAM* tipped USmash. Also, DSmash is not an AWFUL move, you just get punished like crazy if you miss it xD.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm sure that the P:M crew has the capability to wisely and tactfully slightly modify things that are just below the threshold of lackluster like Falcon Kick, Falcon's dtilt, Link's arrows, Link's tilts, and hell- even Jiggly dtilt was touched in B+. The aforementioned moves were buffed in B+ and most likely found their way into P:M due to continuation.

 

[Archangel]

Those moves still have situational uses. You can even kill people with both moves if used right....Still not as outlandish as Gannon's U tilt. I at least think Gannon should keep his super warlock glitch or whatever it was.

 

[Deleted member]

Those moves still have situational uses. You can even kill people with both moves if used right....Still not as outlandish as Gannon's U tilt. I at least think Gannon should keep his super warlock glitch or whatever it was.

Honestly, there's never a reason where Utilt or Warlock Punch are top options for Ganon... Fair can do it all and then some.

Spoiler

Having the two moves are moot and are only used in displays of dominance by the Alpha Ganon for mates

 

[Archangel]

Honestly, there's never a reason where Dtilt or Warlock Punch are top options for Ganon... Fair can do it all and then some.

Spoiler

Having the two moves are moot and are only used in displays of dominance by the Alpha Ganon for mates

10LAWL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's funny I'm not gonna lie. Gannon has more important moves he can use though but I don't exactly consider him a bad character anyway. I never have. It's people who stick to tier lists like it's a bible that have the problem. For the most part Mid tiers do fine minus 1 or 2 things. It's the Low/Bottom that really have the problems. I mean it's hard enough playing a character but then you got *******s like IC's that want to wobble you or shiek that wants to chain grab you to death.

My reaction when I get grabbed by Shiek/IC's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5HdrErT3VA

 

[leafgreen386]

On the topic of "no useless moves," fox also fits this description. Fair actually is useful once in a blue moon for combos, where nair wouldn't work. People don't normally think of it, though, even when it would be appropriate. But no matter how rare they may be, there are cases where it's useful.

As for my view on the subject of all of a character's moves being useful... I don't think it's necessary, by any means. While I certainly don't object to opening up more of a character's moveset to be used (as a general statement), making every last move useful is just plainly and simply unnecessary. Characters can and do operate fine without utilizing their entire movesets. If a character is given moves that are useful, but are so rarely useful that no one even thinks to use them, it's not much different from them not having the move(s) at all, since in 99.9% of situations, it doesn't matter if they have the move or not.

In order to improve the number of situations in which any given move is the best option in, you must do one of two things: 1) Cause the move to overshadow other moves in situations they were already good in, or 2) allow the character to deal with new situations the character could not previously. Note that there can be multiple "best" moves for a situation, depending on the predicted response of the opponent, but... that gets messy. Looking at a simplified version of the game, we see that method #1 could help to decentralize a character around a certain move. This would primarily be playing to strengths they already had, but making them a little more varied. However, in order to do this, the modified move must be better than the previously centralizing move in at least some situations. What that means is that it's very easy to make a character even more centralized around tactics involving these two moves by doing this. As such, this is probably something more ideal for when the original attack was not centralizing. Now, method #2 is essentially buffing the weaknesses of the character, and if a move is made useful by this method, will likely become a much more integral part of the character's game than the toned down version of method #1. This can be legitimate if the character was being made non-viable due to certain crippling weaknesses they possessed. Generally, buffing a character's weaknesses is looked down upon because it makes the game more homogenized, but that does not take away from the validity of buffing weaknesses in more extreme situations. Of course, if the only purpose of buffing a move is to make the move more useful and giving the player more options, it would be horribly stupid to buff a move this way.

tl;dr: Not every move needs to be useful. If you insist on making every move useful on a character that's already good, you could not do anything worse than causing greater centralization of their game around certain tactics or diminishing defining weaknesses of the character. It's a fine line that doesn't need to be walked, so in most cases, it's probably for the best to forgo making every move on a character useful.

Also, @valtrox: It would really help if you could get the people's names right that you're talking about. It's Shanus and Magus, not shamus or magnus.

 

[ETWIST51294]

but they have their uses ET, they are not ubberly garbage, like when you're chain-grabbing a spacie for some percent and then *BAM* tipped USmash. Also, DSmash is not an AWFUL move, you just get punished like crazy if you miss it xD.

lolwut

usmash after a CG never, EVER happens. I have probably seen 20 Marth vids where usmash was used. BTW I've watched TONS of Marth vids. Dsmash, are you serious? This move is garbage. It has almost zero uses.

 

[Deleted member]

At least Marth could be getting Brawl's Usmash and Dsmash ... to the best of my knowledge... *shrug*

Or even better- Brawl Dancing Blades

Now his current metagame in Melee suffers him from not getting kills after combo % is over.
However, this may be good or bad towards the direction Marth goes towards by covering his weakness.

 

[Rikana]

I remember watching Kizzu's marth combo video long ago and it had a dSmash ledge guard to a tipper fSmash on a Falco that didn't DI. Its situations like that where you turn a hardly-used move into something amazing. "Useless" moves are always good to have.

 

[ETWIST51294]

^^ I love when I combo with useless moves.

Marth's Dancing Blades should be okay again imo.

 

[Hellsinglover999]

lolwut

usmash after a CG never, EVER happens. I have probably seen 20 Marth vids where usmash was used. BTW I've watched TONS of Marth vids. Dsmash, are you serious? This move is garbage. It has almost zero uses.

i agree that downsmash is almost never the best option but it can be used if tiped to punish jiggs rest and is as powerful as tiped fsmash