Project M Social Thread

[Dantarion]

All in good time.
Just realize every time we say anything about anything, everyone freaks out about it if its not exactly what we said in the end. Things take time, and all of us have other responsibilities other than this project.

 

[ValTroX]

I know Dant, I was just asking around, I'm cool with the tech skill video, but I was hoping that the character wiki was Mario xD. No rush guys, you'll never be rushed by me, all I want is a darn good product, and for that, we have to be patient

 

[GHNeko]

So is it done yet?

No?

awwww.

Tech Skill vid is **** tho.

 

[CountKaiser]

Neko! You're back :D

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

You can all go die in a huge fire of ******ry.

Yeah.

wait EWW CENSORING

 

[GHNeko]

Mhmm.

Is P:M super sexy yet?

 

[Sterowent]

many would argue yes. still in puberty though

edit: i just realized what i said....bleh

 

[Archangel]

Is it just me or are alot of Mains who's name start with the letter M interested in this project? Mario's, Marths,....Mr.GayManWatch?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Is it just me or are alot of Mains who's name start with the letter M interested in this project? Mario's, Marths,....Mr.GayManWatch?

that's a surprisingly perceptive insight, spam_arrows! thank you for sharing that. now that we know this, we now know exactly what aspects of the game the players truly wish for us to focus on and what to prioritize when we start organizing our work loads.

we encourage the rest of you all to make comments as informative and pondering as this, as they provide us an easier way of gauging what kind of details we need to look after.

 

[Sterowent]

alright, so i'm really curious how you guys are handling the zelda/sheik character. of course, i know you guys are making each viable on their own. however, because of this, the two with their very different characteristics won't share the same matchup problems. so, it can be said that sheik mains from melee will in fact be forced to learn a new character to have optimal viability.

is this on point? if not, could you please explain how transform characters, primarily Z/S but also PKM trainer if possible, will be dealt with?

Spoiler

also, spam, if that's how it is, then let's discern the illusion of this myth.

i main random - olimar. r is the 18th letter of the alphabet. o is the 15th. 18 - 15 = 3, which is C in the alphabet, but in roman it is III. III looks a lot like M.

i-impossible!

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I was just gonna talk about Zelda/Sheik. Will there ever be a reason to use Zelda over Sheik? Or will there be a good reason to switch between the two mid-battle? Even if Zelda is given some major buffs, I think people will always look at Sheik as a cooler more bad*** character.

Poor triangle-eared girl

 

[[TSON]]

many would argue yes. still in puberty though

edit: i just realized what i said....bleh

*warns*


also triangle-ears will be viewed as ****** for her unique deliverance of rising heel to the face.

 

[Glöwworm]

does zelda still have that long loading time when transforming into sheik? i remember somebody brought it up but i don't know if it was answered.

 

[Kix]

Spoiler

also, spam, if that's how it is, then let's discern the illusion of this myth.

i main random - olimar. r is the 18th letter of the alphabet. o is the 15th. 18 - 15 = 3, which is C in the alphabet, but in roman it is III. III looks a lot like M.

i-impossible!

Spoiler

Sounds like Richard Carrier's work. I'm not kidding.

 

[[TSON]]

does zelda still have that long loading time when transforming into sheik? i remember somebody brought it up but i don't know if it was answered.

We've minimized it as much as possible. It's the best it will get at the moment.

 

[stingers]

i hope zelda is decent in this one.

 

[Archangel]

Sarcastic Remark

It's not like this thread was going anywhere when I posted that. If you have time and energy to reply to a nonsensical comment like that then why not use it for something more useful involving the project?

On current topic: If I'm not mistaken Zelda was among the first to show her potential in the project. In fact I remember at one point she was actually looked at as over powered. Last I saw she had seemed like the best version of Zelda to date for any version of smash. Hacked or not.

 

[stingers]

jiang is just a troll. ignore him.

 

[genkaku]

Everyone in the project has been thought of as OP at some point, haha.
Zelda and Sheik are, from what I've seen, both very viable. However, their playstyles aren't exactly compatible. I doubt that any Zelda main could do better with a Sheik counterpick as opposed to someone else entirely. Same with Sheik.

 

[Archangel]

Everyone in the project has been thought of as OP at some point, haha.
Zelda and Sheik are, from what I've seen, both very viable. However, their playstyles aren't exactly compatible. I doubt that any Zelda main could do better with a Sheik counterpick as opposed to someone else entirely. Same with Sheik.

Considering that for now they are still combined then wouldn't that be kind of OP'd. How could you counter pick them if together they could beat all the other characters or at least go even with them. Unless....you make them totally separate for good. That or just leave them so that each of them have their own good/not easy match ups.

Of course this is all very far off pondering. We don't know how things will change once Landing detection and grabs are completely done. Some Match-ups won't be the same at all dispite melee things being implemented fully. Characters like Pikachu will be more equiped to deal with sheik for example. That and the fact that you'll have many new characters and new match-ups to explore. It should provide another 9 1/2 years of exploring for us.

 

[ValTroX]

They should stay together, no reason to make them separate character, if someone is good with both of 'em, it's a reward. It's the same as PT, people can pick indi pokemon, but if you are able to control them all, it's a reward for the time you spent learning how to use the characters in different situations

 

[FireBall Stars]

If Zelda really comes up being equally viable as Sheik and the change is maintained as command wise (no one would have the idea to force the change between they anyway), the player who masters both characters metagames will have the upper hand in the MU area, as the two characters with characteristics so opposed to each other will likely excels in MUs which the other wouldn't have sucess.

I guess that would be a good reward for players that use both characters.

The same goes to Pokémon Trainer if no change is made after a Fall, the Pokémon Change being sped up and each pokémon be equally viable (consider that they don't have stamina or elemental weakness). But in the Zelda/Sheik case may exist characters who have a neutral/good MU against both for different reasons.

But with Pokémon Trainer, it will be very unlikely that a character will overwhelm (in the MU theories) the three pokémon at the same time, thus giving PT something that any of the IndyPokés will have.

Do my thoughts makes sense?

 

[genkaku]

Considering that for now they are still combined then wouldn't that be kind of OP'd. How could you counter pick them if together they could beat all the other characters or at least go even with them. Unless....you make them totally separate for good. That or just leave them so that each of them have their own good/not easy match ups.

Of course this is all very far off pondering. We don't know how things will change once Landing detection and grabs are completely done. Some Match-ups won't be the same at all dispite melee things being implemented fully. Characters like Pikachu will be more equiped to deal with sheik for example. That and the fact that you'll have many new characters and new match-ups to explore. It should provide another 9 1/2 years of exploring for us.

Haha, here's to the next 9.5 years.
The fact that Sheik and Zelda are joined at the hip has no real influence on either of their games. Even if you switch mid-match (which never happens, ever, I mean, really, show me one competitive match where it does) your opponent just has to deal with a different set of strengths and weaknesses. Different, but still evident and more than exploitable.
And again, on a more practical level, who has the flexibility of mind to have a very-top-level Sheik AND Zelda? I know I don't.
I guess that the easiest, maybe safest solution to guard against my being wrong would be to totally separate them, but for some reason that notion holds no appeal.

 

[Archangel]

I guess I could see how mastering both is a reward. I mean Sheik won't exaclty auto-**** but she'll still **** alot of people with D-throw>Fair or tilts. Zelda will probably do better against Characters like Puff and other really good floaties that die easy or give Sheik trouble. In theory if you mastered both you wouldn't have a weakness however it's very very possible that a few characters could give both a tough time. Like Sonic for example, or Pit or Wolf or Enhanced Pikachu. Nobody knows which is what makes the thought of it exciting to me.

As for PT I think they should be individualized. The odds of All 3 of them having the same counterpick are far less then that of Zelda/Shiek. It's really not fair to the individual PT's either.

Spoiler

Unless you give them all a new Down B and remap the switch out to one of the taunts. Then you Combine Pika, Lucario, & Jigglypuff.

 

[Deleted member]

Sooooo it's been 3 days. Can I assume that the tech skill vid is obsolete? I'm sure about 20 new areas of melee physics have been cracked by now.

Also, for the Zelda/Sheik thing, I think a nice solution would be making so that using transform does a certain amount of damage to one's one character, to slightly discourage match-up abuse.

The problem with having them combined is that one of 2 things will most likely happen (unless balancing is completely flawless).

1. Players who can use both Zelda and Sheik competitively will benefit greatly from being able to customize their matchup.
2. Players who can only play competitively with ONE of Zelda/Sheik will have a more difficult time doing well.

 

[FireBall Stars]

People have their choices.

If they choose to play as a indypoké or as pokémon trainer, he knows the advantages and disavantages of each choice it wouldn't be unfair because the player chose, if he chose that way he may have his personal motives for it.

I don't much of a point on completely individualizing Pokémon Trainer.

I don't think so Puu.

In a game with a melee structure requires much more from the player to play in a high level with his characters, if the player somehow learns to play with Zelda and Sheik, I thinks it's nothing more than a fair reward

 

[genkaku]

Isn't it currently impossible to code anything into Pokemon down Bs anyway?

 

[FireBall Stars]

As far as I know, the DownB is Pokemon Trainer's. The Pokés just doesn't have a downB, so it's unlikely that they will ever have one.

Am I right?

 

[I R MarF]

As for PT I think they should be individualized. The odds of All 3 of them having the same counterpick are far less then that of Zelda/Shiek. It's really not fair to the individual PT's either.

PT would be a difficult character to master. My interpretation is that squirtle is offense, ivysaur is defense, and charizard is the KOer, take that and throw in things like stamina and you have a character that is very reliant on swapping/mix ups, battle strategies, and 3 character mastery.

The amount of possible playstyles and tactics will be limitless and good PTers will be graced with a 50:50 matchup all the way through for their hard work.

Also, I think if the "weakness" system was made a lot stronger, the best CP for PT would be Kirby because he can could copy fire, seeds, or water and really limit a PT's options. It would also be cool if Kirby could cycle through hats with his side taunts making him a very versatile team player as well as exploiting the "weakness" system against PT.

 

[L/A/W]

Also, I think if the "weakness" system was made a lot stronger, the best CP for PT would be Kirby because he can could copy fire, seeds, or water and really limit a PT's options. It would also be cool if Kirby could cycle through hats with his side taunts making him a very versatile team player as well as exploiting the "weakness" system against PT.

waaaaay to gimmicky imo

 

[FireBall Stars]

Kirby? Probably not.

If you copy the attack it won't make extra damage on the current pokémon, and look, the next pokémon is exactly the one that doesn't have the disavantage, two of the three attack are hard to hit and besides that kirby can lose the ability anytime.

Making the weakness system stronger would completely **** Ivysaur, many characters can use fire moves in the game, he would suffer even more from it than the other pokémon

 

[I R MarF]

Hmm... you guys make good points. I guess I wasn't thinking when I said that. Ha ha.

 

[Archangel]

PT would be a difficult character to master. My interpretation is that squirtle is offense, ivysaur is defense, and charizard is the KOer, take that and throw in things like stamina and you have a character that is very reliant on swapping/mix ups, battle strategies, and 3 character mastery.

The amount of possible playstyles and tactics will be limitless and good PTers will be graced with a 50:50 matchup all the way through for their hard work.

Also, I think if the "weakness" system was made a lot stronger, the best CP for PT would be Kirby because he can could copy fire, seeds, or water and really limit a PT's options. It would also be cool if Kirby could cycle through hats with his side taunts making him a very versatile team player as well as exploiting the "weakness" system against PT.

Squirtle is Largely untouched
Ivysaur is capable of JV 5 stocks
Charzard is LOL good. Probably the best heavyweight so far IMO. People complained about the stamina thing until it was removed(it was a gay feat. I'm glad it's gone). However looking down the road(as in a year or 2 after it's been released) I see some really gay tactics for PT if not separated. Whats weird is the Select screen has the 3 seperated but still has PT there. If there was someway to make them individual and keep the PT version in which case they could swap out however they suffer from stamina effects then that wouldn't be bad imo.

as for Kirby....people are gonna hate me for this but I like the toggle hat Idea. However it would be kind of unfair if he could do it mid match. However if he was able to chose which hat he was going to use prior to starting the match then that would be ok. Lets be honest. Unless Kirby is made faster on the ground, increased in aerial mobility, or both. He will sink down like he did before.


As for the weakness system. That would be ****ing funny but extremely gay considering a Falcon Kick would be the equivalent of a rest from Puff. LOLOLOLOL

 

[FireBall Stars]

I would agree with stamina as long they make the point when the pokémon is starting to lose power to eight minutes and 1 second, then it would be SO awesome.

 

[h1roshi]

im excited to see if the final turnout will be a big success. I'm officially interested.

-misshiroshi

 

[Sterowent]

...Zelda and Sheik are, from what I've seen, both very viable. However, their playstyles aren't exactly compatible. I doubt that any Zelda main could do better with a Sheik counterpick as opposed to someone else entirely. Same with Sheik.

They should stay together, no reason to make them separate character, if someone is good with both of 'em, it's a reward...

If Zelda really comes up being equally viable as Sheik..., the player who masters both characters metagames will have the upper hand in the MU area, as the two characters with characteristics so opposed to each other will likely excels in MUs which the other wouldn't have sucess.

I guess that would be a good reward for players that use both characters...

Haha, here's to the next 9.5 years.
The fact that Sheik and Zelda are joined at the hip has no real influence on either of their games. Even if you switch mid-match (which never happens, ever, I mean, really, show me one competitive match where it does) your opponent just has to deal with a different set of strengths and weaknesses. Different, but still evident and more than exploitable.
And again, on a more practical level, who has the flexibility of mind to have a very-top-level Sheik AND Zelda? I know I don't...

The problem with having them combined is that one of 2 things will most likely happen (unless balancing is completely flawless).

1. Players who can use both Zelda and Sheik competitively will benefit greatly from being able to customize their matchup.
2. Players who can only play competitively with ONE of Zelda/Sheik will have a more difficult time doing well.

this is my problem. i said this before. if zelda is a viable character, there is no point in not learning her if you're a sheik main. to excel as much as possible in a tournament, players will play the best characters, after all. they will main one character, but most certainly they will know a second character very thoroughly. ask any fox main if they have a secondary, and you'll hear falco a lot of the time. you'll hear sheik. you'll hear CF. the notion that players won't pick up a secondary to help with their matchups or when they feel they need more or less of something that their main can't do is absurd.

in fox's, falco's, CF's, ganon's, etc. case, though, you can't switch your options so heavily midmatch. you can't alter your matchup in midmatch. you can't force your opponent to play a completely different character midmatch!

there's gonna be a tourney rule made about this if it isn't addressed. that's not a bad thing, but it's going to happen. same with pkm trainer, but his situation is more complicated...

 

[Dantarion]

Thats the entire point. Neither character is OP. Ability to switch is not OP.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Thats the entire point. Neither character is OP. Ability to switch is not OP.

Agreed, changing mid-match isn't that great an advantage.

 

[Revven]

As far as I know, the DownB is Pokemon Trainer's. The Pokés just doesn't have a downB, so it's unlikely that they will ever have one.

Am I right?

Yes, that is mostly correct. You could probably implement a Down B for the Pokes using some sneaky tricks, but then you run into the issue that it also affects PT's Pokemon as well sooo... it's not really an option to give them their own Down Bs.

 

[Sterowent]

then you're essentially changing the high tiers. no sheik main will stand idly by in a bad matchup. they will switch. in fact, many would say they must learn zelda. the sheik/zelda character will no longer be just sheik, and that's a big change for those maining her.

downB won't be the worst move in the game anymore. it'll be hugely buffed.

edit: for the sake of clarity, let me give this a scenario.

okay, let's assume these things are true: sheik/puff matchup is bad, zelda/puff matchup is good. sheik/CF matchup is good (heh), zelda/CF matchup is bad.

so, you meet up in brackets vs a puff/CF player. what does he do? can he even counterpick this player? according to characters, he can't. can he counterpick stages? at a much lesser degree, yes.

player stays one or the other of S/Z for first stock. switches to other character. no matter how the opponent plays this, he'll be at a disadvantage. this is my problem. no sheik main would not consider this. neither would a zelda main, how few they are.