Project M Social Thread

[Comeback Kid]

I've always felt Norfair & Mario Kart were placeholder stages meant to be replaced by something better.

I seriously hope we get another classic stage and not just a reskinned Pokemon Stadium 2.

 

[Shadow Huan]

wait, Wolf can DACUS?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I've always felt Norfair & Mario Kart were placeholder stages meant to be replaced by something better.

I seriously hope we get another classic stage and not just a reskinned Pokemon Stadium 2.

I know that the PMBR had something else planned for Norfair at one point, but I seriously hope they consider using Axcel's Norfair.

 

[JOE!]

wait, Wolf can DACUS?

DACUS is a universal technique, it's just some people's suck

 

[Shadow Huan]

i knew he could in Brawl, but i couldn't get in in P:M, the timing must be tight lol

*off to the lab*

 

[Kink-Link5]

DACUS is not universal. The window depends on how long your character's jumpsquat is, and some characters jump too quickly to have any DACUS window at all.

 

[JCaesar]

Axcel made a more competition friendly Norfair as well. It's like an elongated battlefield with a hole in the central platform. Looks like it'll make for amazing edge-platform play. I think PMBR should take a good look at it tbh.

EDIT: I, too, am looking forward to stage changes. Helps keep the game feeling fresh.

Do you have a link to that Norfair? That actually sounds pretty similar to my original idea for Norfair which we had in before Demo 2 came out.

 

[JOE!]

http://smashmods.com/forum/thread-4985.html

it's been on the Smashmods forums forever dude

 

[DrinkingFood]

This post for the "Post-of-the-year-concerning-DACUSs":
http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4913-post-103706.html#pid103706

 

[Kink-Link5]

Silly Joe, you know the PMBR supreme and infallible overlords care not for the petty creations of its lowly audience.

For more sardonism, stay tuned to "Talk down to Bunni for being unable to bomb jump despite putting hours of effort and practice into it because that's totally acceptable behavior when talking to someone trying to get into the game."

 

[Comeback Kid]

This is beautiful. Maybe slightly smaller dimensions would be good but I like it a lot.

 

[DMG]

That requires a read and it's primarily for KO'ing purposes, though. His old dthrow had a lot of guaranteed set-ups (low% cg, throw -> aerial) and I don't think G&W has a problem with KO'ing.

I must admit I haven't really played around with G&W's uthrow, though, if it does work like that then it's neat, but then again it also makes him lose a higher % cg on spacies. :x

YUPPPP

His old Dthrow was better and flowed better with his Uthrow. Especially vs floaties, Dthrow was amazing.

Silly Joe, you know the PMBR supreme and infallible overlords care not for the petty creations of its lowly audience.

For more sardonism, stay tuned to "Talk down to Bunni for being unable to bomb jump despite putting hours of effort and practice into it because that's totally acceptable behavior when talking to someone trying to get into the game."

To be fair, even I thought you were possibly trolling. However, bomb jumping with Link does feel easier than TL.

 

[moleman915]

Is there an ETA on the update yet?

 

[standardtoaster]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IueCrnk4g-o

best ike moment so far (caution: neko gets loud)

 

[victra♥]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IueCrnk4g-o

best ike moment so far (caution: neko gets loud)

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

ahahaha

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

edit: lmaoooo fist of the north star 10/10

 

[DMG]

I disagree. That Vro vs Fox combo video material at FC? Yeee.

 

[iLink]

i knew he could in Brawl, but i couldn't get in in P:M, the timing must be tight lol

*off to the lab*

If you know how to do it with sheik in brawl, i use the exact same method to do it.

 

[standardtoaster]

http://www.twitch.tv/ghneko

GHNeko is streaming now

 

[metroid1117]

Silly Joe, you know the PMBR supreme and infallible overlords care not for the petty creations of its lowly audience.

For more sardonism, stay tuned to "Talk down to Bunni for being unable to bomb jump despite putting hours of effort and practice into it because that's totally acceptable behavior when talking to someone trying to get into the game."

By saying this, I don't think you're acknowledging the amount of time and effort Daze put into trying to help you out. He really went out of his way to help you, you should be thankful for that.

To be honest, I thought you were trolling as well.

 

[GuruKid]

This is beautiful. Maybe slightly smaller dimensions would be good but I like it a lot.

Don't take this as official PMBR approval but... wow, that looks amazing. I would love to play there. Do the metroids have any unique animations?

 

[Xebenkeck]

Does no one use smashmods? That is one of the biggest threads in the Project M Workshop subforum and has been there for like 4 months.

 

[DrinkingFood]

The small little platform that the central metroid is on is actually in the background btw. The updated version has the removed as it confused people making them not realize there's a hole there in the middle of the stage. You can see a picture of the official release at http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4985.html

 

[ph00tbag]

You mean they actually released that broke-*** stage?

Oy vey.

 

[Kink-Link5]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IueCrnk4g-o

best ike moment so far (caution: neko gets loud)

I was also wondering if the metroids moved around or anything in the background. They seem to be static from the screenshots.

 

[Kirk]

For those interested, here's a playlist from a recent Chicago area tournament, featuring Rat, Kels, ORLY, Scythe and myself.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0gVZ1M0WWV5eRpsg-To6o5mzjHalxxY7

 

[leelue]

Looks like that stage will be incredibly fun. I want.

 

[clowsui]

why is every single stage in P:M flat + plat w no stage hazards or real defining characteristics other than a moving platform or two lmfao

delfino is the obvious exception

 

[Kink-Link5]

Delfino is a pretty crappy stage though. New PM stages tend to favor simpler diverse designs because the game is made primarily focusing on the competitive aspect of Melee, where simple CP's are the best kind.

Brawl only has 3 or 5 tops good stages; BF, SV, PS2, FD, and YI:B; and even then only two of those are really close to neutral. The current stage list is ridiculously liberal with stage selections that would never pass if there were better stages to choose from.

 

[OmegaMuffin]

Halberd has hazards and YI:B and Metal Cavern aren't flat.

 

[Shadic]

People complain about Skyloft having too radical of a stage layout, even. It's hard to make creative, unique designs that aren't going to actively detract from the gameplay at large.

 

[clowsui]

Delfino is a pretty crappy stage though. New PM stages tend to favor simpler diverse designs because the game is made primarily focusing on the competitive aspect of Melee, where simple CP's are the best kind.

Brawl only has 3 or 5 tops good stages; BF, SV, PS2, FD, and YI:B; and even then only two of those are really close to neutral. The current stage list is ridiculously liberal with stage selections that would never pass if there were better stages to choose from.

You're wrong about Brawl stages, lol...

What is this obsession with PvP interaction? i would think that given the opportunity to create a new game, the PMBR would invest some time into creating stages that enhance PvP through PvS in unconventional/novel ways (unless they are -- Strong Bad?). Totally re-creating the Melee experience is clearly not the only goal they had in mind, as they kept quite a few aspects from Brawl. So what's the big idea? Why should we focus on "simple" stages when we have the opportunity to test new stage ideas for quite a while (I'm presuming that there will be many more demos to come)?

@Shadic an ACTUAL rebuttal to my post, thank god. So let me ask this question: generally speaking, what kind of layouts truly detract from gameplay? How do they detract from gameplay? Do they actually detract from gameplay or have a certain kind of depth that people are unwilling to learn? If this depth exists, then why do they not want to learn it? If this depth does not exist, then why not create it? These are all loaded questions, I realize, but I want to challenge the norm here. Part of the broader appeal of Smash is the great lengths taken to add a PvS element to the game (though many of these PvS elements are not competitively legitimate, as determined by the community). With P:M we have the opportunity to re-introduce and create PvS elements that are acceptable on all levels. Why shouldn't we take it?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Shadic said nearly the same thing as me with less elaboration, how does it make it more of a legitimized response just because he said it wtf.

Like I feel like I was just blindsided and side swiped from the conversation because a BR member reinforced my statement.

 

[links24]

Tha due shadic dho

 

[DMG]

You're wrong about Brawl stages, lol...

What is this obsession with PvP interaction? i would think that given the opportunity to create a new game, the PMBR would invest some time into creating stages that enhance PvP through PvS in unconventional/novel ways (unless they are -- Strong Bad?). Totally re-creating the Melee experience is clearly not the only goal they had in mind, as they kept quite a few aspects from Brawl. So what's the big idea? Why should we focus on "simple" stages when we have the opportunity to test new stage ideas for quite a while (I'm presuming that there will be many more demos to come)?

@Shadic an ACTUAL rebuttal to my post, thank god. So let me ask this question: generally speaking, what kind of layouts truly detract from gameplay? How do they detract from gameplay? Do they actually detract from gameplay or have a certain kind of depth that people are unwilling to learn? If this depth exists, then why do they not want to learn it? If this depth does not exist, then why not create it? These are all loaded questions, I realize, but I want to challenge the norm here. Part of the broader appeal of Smash is the great lengths taken to add a PvS element to the game (though many of these PvS elements are not competitively legitimate, as determined by the community). With P:M we have the opportunity to re-introduce and create PvS elements that are acceptable on all levels. Why shouldn't we take it?

Layouts that detract from gameplay: too large, too small (imagine a single platform being the entire stage), too many vertical differences (think Norfair, Onett), hazards, certain aspects like walls walkoffs.

You can make "interesting" stages, but they will follow a certain kind of guideline. Look at the new Sonic stage. That's a very good example of something different, but not so much that it detracts from gameplay. Metal Cavern is also a good stage in that regard: there are appreciable differences between that stage and BF SV FD etc. P:M isn't just a bunch of BF variations lol. In fact I'd say some of their stages went a bit too far in trying to be different, and had something noticeable off. Stage size wise some of these look a bit too big (definitely for singles). Look at SSE Jungle. They haven't gone crazy with hazards or wonky designs imo, but some of the sizes are a bit on the bigger side and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them get trimmed down.


As for the depth stuff, it really depends on what you mean by depth. Some stages are "playable", but on the grand scale of things aren't that deep. Or say you have a stage that's dominated by fast character camping. The RPS between those 3-4 characters might be fair, but for the rest of the cast who can't catch Falcon Fox etc on Hyrule.


Stage wise, the stage list has already been expanded by the new stages they have added/Brawl + Melee stages combined. I went over it with Neko for example, and even with fairly conservative criteria I came up with roughly 20 or so. That's a pretty big improvement over BOTH Brawl and Melee. I didn't include say SSE Jungle or some of the bigger stages, took off Hyrule etc. Still came up with about 20.

Shadic said nearly the same thing as me with less elaboration, how does it make it more of a legitimized response just because he said it wtf.

He's got a cooler name Bunni, sorry. Maybe Easter time you will have more luck

 

[NeoZ]

Big Blue for neutral stage please, we need more of that PvS.

 

[Comeback Kid]

I think the new Norfair and a quirky classic stage replacing Mario Kart would please everyone on this board. Everyone.

 

[standardtoaster]

http://www.twitch.tv/standardtoaster

Streaming demo 2.5!

 

[`dazrin]

Hey, I told some people on my stream that I'd be streaming today, but unfortunately some things came up and that is no longer possible. I'll stream again next Saturdaze at around 4pm pst

Look forward to VGBC's stream on tuesday at around 7pm EST as well as legionary wednesdays at 6pm EST. There are always other PMBR members streaming 2.5 also that will post here whenever they go live Follow everyone!!

Edit: --Just like Standard Toaster up there!

 

[Shadic]

@Shadic an ACTUAL rebuttal to my post, thank god. So let me ask this question: generally speaking, what kind of layouts truly detract from gameplay? How do they detract from gameplay? Do they actually detract from gameplay or have a certain kind of depth that people are unwilling to learn? If this depth exists, then why do they not want to learn it? If this depth does not exist, then why not create it? These are all loaded questions, I realize, but I want to challenge the norm here. Part of the broader appeal of Smash is the great lengths taken to add a PvS element to the game (though many of these PvS elements are not competitively legitimate, as determined by the community). With P:M we have the opportunity to re-introduce and create PvS elements that are acceptable on all levels. Why shouldn't we take it?

Something to keep in mind is that while the PMBR may appear stubborn and uncompromising from the outside, it's because we have these debates amongst each other in private, and actively test these theories.

There's no strict guideline on where a stage becomes "too much" of a nuisance, or "distracts" the main focus of the game - Player vs. player combat. It's a spectrum issue and people have different stances depending on if they're in tournament, what characters they play, and local preference has a part as well. It's why there's not really a true stagelist or even ruleset for a Smash game that is universally used.

For example - Let's look at Kongo Jungle 64. The level can be used as a legal counterpick stage, and despite having a relatively basic layout, can have a large impact on matchups.

Here's what it can do to the Peach v Ganon matchup.

Is that an acceptable amount of stage impact on matchup? The jury is out on that one. The match certainly would have been very different on a simpler stage such as Final Destination or (in P:M) Smashville. A large part of the "issue" on that stage would be the height of the top platforms on each side - and now think of the layout of Skyloft. While the stages are by no means identical, would a similar strategy work there? And is the community okay with this? Should the PMBR be, if a goal is to make a game this is fast-paced, dynamic game and interesting to both play and watch?

I could go much deeper into this, but unfortunately I don't really have the time, nor do I want to dwell too much on arguments that have already been made in the Project M Back Room. Please realize that we do spend a lot of time debating this stuff amongst ourselves, and we do try and create some unique, cool stages that are fun both competitively and casually, but it is something that isn't as simple as one may believe.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Not to mention how everyone's general lack of knowledge on stage.rels limits us as well.