Project M Social Thread

[Stevo]

getting a grab with a character like shiek is inevitable at any level.

I agree?

You can't expect to never get grabbed, but you can still try to play around it.

Falco can 4 stock a bowser in melee just like sheik can. At least Sheik's chain grab doesn't work on everyone.

Yes it is very good, but that's the point. It's part of the reason Sheik was Sheik in melee. In PM every character is supposed to be "good".

I'd still like to at least try Melee Sheik in PM.






Melee Tier list
S: Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Sheik
A: Marth, Peach, Captain Falcon
B: Ice Climbers
C: Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Samus
D: Pikachu, Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong
E: Link, Young Link
F: Zelda, Roy, Mewtwo, Yoshi, Mr. Game & Watch
G: Ness, Bowser, Kirby, Pichu

so Sheik can excessively Chaingrab: Herself, Ganondorf, pika, Link, Game & Watch, Bowser?

is that correct? That hardly seems gamebreaking.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Shiek's d-throw chaingrab in melee is easymode compared to falco's tech combos tho

shiek is amazing in PAL as well, with no chaingrab

also balanced?? is that why yoshi/shiek is 70:30 (or 80:20 i forget) in NTSC and 50:50 in PAL. just based off that, which is more balanced?

 

[Rikana]

I have nothing against them nerfing NTSC Sheik's throw. But I would like a generally usable, effective throw that doesn't get ***** by positioning > edgecancel or just DI away > shake onto feet (for floatier characters after X%).

Sheik is a really balanced character in terms of her combat RPS. She gets through shields the same way Mario does (the standard way - grabbing it). She is more vulnerable to many things because of it (sidestepped grabs often severely harm Sheik in many MUs and she doesn't have frame-tight pressure so her conditioning is different than the spacies & Peach) but this is balanced by her amazing range & low lag. She also gets her hits by winning move vs move exchanges. She's one of the few good characters that still respects the shield > attack > grab > shield dynamic to a large degree and I love that about her; she's an awesome character, just like most of the Melee top tiers. She's built well.

Fox, as a brief comparison, doesn't rely on grab to get through shields but he misses out on being able to eat moves with his moves and such. It's a good, fair, reasonable balance. And he needs the safety on shield because he's so frail vs successful shield grabs. He also can't run defense as well because his reaction windows are very different and he's frail so long-term strategies can backfire if he gets nicked by something. There's a lot of risk-reward to a Fox strategy and weighing various things against each other. It's different than Sheik but not miles better.

I also prefer NTSC dthrow. More kb growth would have been a better "nerf" imo so cg doesn't last ridiculously long.

 

[Stevo]

I also prefer NTSC dthrow. More kb growth would have been a better "nerf" imo so cg doesn't last ridiculously long.

yeah, and that's why we need to test it in the PM environment. Maybe it just needed a small adjustment like this.

 

[drsusredfish]

looking at that teir list. sheik is a top player so why was she changed from melee? aren't tops suposed to stay melee? not that i really care for sheik but her changes go against the standards that were set. I didn't want to call it a nerf but she is like the only top teir who got intentinal nerfs. (i do believe her chain grab being changed to a more read based move is a nerf.)

 

[leelue]

So does 98% of everyone else
I had hoped that this change would allow the pmbr to consider similar downgrades of the super space brothers, but alas...

 

[stingers]

I think other melee top tiers need a nerf as well.
fox needs a recovery nerf, and falco needs a dair nerf (make it a meteor or somethin)

 

[ELI-mination]

People seem to agree about that for the most part but there seems to be a pretty common misconception that they don't.

 

[GP&B]

It seems difficult to compromise without a group blowing up over the changes.

 

[Stevo]

I thought that's why the original rule of "don't change the high tiers" was said from the beginning.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Seriously smash community? You WANT chaingrabs................



The reason it was changed is because it is a polarizing aspect of the game that is extremely hard to balance around. The only way to balance it is to give other characters equally as gay chaingrabs on Shiek. But then everyone would be screaming that "OMG you guys nerfed shiek she gets chaingrabbed by everyone now."

 

[Hylian]

I'm just confused because they buffed ganon and then also made his cg work longer and on more people while taking shieks away. Sooo..now ganon is just going to chaingrab half the cast instead of shiek? lol and the logic of ganon not being good so it doesn't matter can't apply anymore...because he's good now.

 

[standardtoaster]

We didn't purposely make ganon's any better. It's better than melee right now because of the differences in grab mechanics between melee and brawl.

 

[DrinkingFood]

^That's been said a million times and I don't know why everyone seems to forget it and then go right back to complaining about it all over again.

 

[Xebenkeck]

^^In all fairness, not everyone reads this thread daily or is going to read through all 5167 pages.

If you want some hilarity go back like 2000 pages and read some the stuff there. Hindsight can be pretty funny.

 

[Revven]

^^In all fairness, not everyone reads this thread daily or is going to read through all 5167 pages.

But Hylian was in that discussion and told several times the mechanics behind why Ganon's Dthrow does that.

 

[Skieth]

I'm more upset Shiek has had a sub par side B for 11 years. And that the transformation takes an inconsistently long time.

 

[Revven]

And that the transformation takes an inconsistently long time.

We cannot do anything more about this, sorry.

 

[Skieth]

Oh, I know. As soon as I realized pausing the game for a few seconds made the transformation instant, I figured it was an unsolvable problem.

I personally don't ever use the transformation, but I assume replacing it is beyond the scope of PM.

 

[Wavebuster]

The transform taking an inconsistently long time can be a strength. The reason you can act instantly out of it is to make the vulnerability window consistent (all at the beginning), and deter the opponent from camping your location as Zelda or Sheik is loading and unhittable.

Also if you're not experimenting with what Sheik's SideB can do, you're missing out. It's still super situational but can be a major threat in such situations.

 

[Stevo]

Sheik's NTSC d-throw is good not just because it chaingrabs. It is also very good against the characters it doesn't chain grab because it pops them up right near you (or on the ground near you)

Chaingrabs will always be in the game unless we change a lot of things. Like a global change that you cannot grab somebody who is in hitstun from a throw or grab escape or something along those lines.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Derp, responded to a several posts-old post. Don't feel like fixing.

 

[stingers]

thats what quotes are for...

 

[DrinkingFood]

Chaingrabs will always be in the game unless we change a lot of things. Like a global change that you cannot grab somebody who is in hitstun from a throw or grab escape or something along those lines.

Yeah let's buff the spacies.

@Stingers
Well I thought I was following the post, so I didn't bother. That's why I didn't bother fixing it, 'cause I would have had to go back and quote it and what-have-you.

 

[Kuraudo]

Did you just justify that someone's recovery isn't too good because one character has a completely unique option that beats it?

Not exactly my point, as the chap below in the quote said. Just at the time I couldn't think of other examples. I'd have to play around with it more, but things like BAir on Ike on the way up from behind to stage spike him, edgeguarding him, the works. To me it just seems like a case of "Less QQ more realizing we're still tapping into the potential of match-ups and how to deal with Ike's recovery options"

For example Falco. I find it hard to use DAir with Charizard on Falco's Up+B, so instead I'll whip my tail with a BAir and knock Falco into the stage, unless they tech it of course.

I doubt that's how he meant that.

I think most characters could at least bair Ike out if they were quick enough, though a good Ike should be able to tech that fairly easily.

^^^

Basically this.

 

[MaxThunder]

^^why knock him into the stage when you can knock him away from it?..

 

[Kuraudo]

^^why knock him into the stage when you can knock him away from it?..

It's a mixed bag, really. On Ike it's dangerous to do that because of the sword spinning in front of him to cover his recovery. But even if you successfully knocked him AWAY, there's a good chance of DI'ing upward to make getting back to the stage even easier. If they're at a percentage where hitting them away actually gets the STOCK? Sure.

As for Falco? Also a mixed bag. Hit him away and depending on the character, if Falco DI's it up, he can live and get back. Hitting him into the stage gives you that chance you're willing to take that they may not tech it in time and bounce to their death.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Sheik's NTSC d-throw is good not just because it chaingrabs. It is also very good against the characters it doesn't chain grab because it pops them up right near you (or on the ground near you)

Chaingrabs will always be in the game unless we change a lot of things. Like a global change that you cannot grab somebody who is in hitstun from a throw or grab escape or something along those lines.

I always thought that shieks d-throw change was to make her a little more unique, i mean have you guys really seen the changes done to shiek? if anything, she got several buffs, and d-throw not being OP and just semi-good d-throw seems more of a tweak compared to the other stuff she got. Also the fact that this certain grab completely shut's down so many other character's a 0% is ridiculous, adding in her amazing moveset with tons of range and priority PLUS how extremely easy she is to use, you've basically have Top tier gate keeper.

I've also seen tons of matches where d-throw is the jury and shiek winning is the verdict. And like i said, what I consider tweak could help to advance her metagame that doesn't completely revolve around that specific throw.

The only real nerf i've seem to have trouble with is her needles haveing a clank hitbox, i'm not to sure how it works but i do know it's no longer like falco's lasers that can hit you but can't be hit when it's shot. I might not be explaning this well, so my bad, but hopefully someone from the PMBR can explain.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Smashmods appears to be down >.>

Sheik's needles have the hurtbox from melee removed, and have normal, non-trascendant hitboxes, meaning they can clank and beat beaten out by other moves/projectiles.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Smashmods appears to be down >.>

Sheik's needles have the hurtbox from melee removed, and have normal, non-trascendant hitboxes, meaning they can clank and beat beaten out by other moves/projectiles.

lol this is what i wanted to say but yeah it's seems like an actual nerf to me.

Anyway's, i don't know why but it seems like DDD is gonna be an unpopular character, i don't know, i just feel it in me for some reason.

 

[Revven]

Needles is unintentional, it's just how they function in Brawl we've yet to be able to look at.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Needles is unintentional, it's just how they function in Brawl we've yet to be able to look at.

C, c guise, shiek is just gonna get better.

Like i said about DD, what do you guys think are the less popular characters in the game, I know the metagame as a whole is still a 5-7 month old baby, but what characters simply seem like melee kirby? (in popularity)

 

[MaxThunder]

@kuraudo: hitting ike away would make him have to recover with side-b... then you could just knock him away again... or hope he's dumb enough to do the side-b attack...

and falco could easily be knocked out of range of his recovery...

lol i even refreshed but it didn't who all those posts above this...

 

[9Kplus1]

Anyway's, i don't know why but it seems like DDD is gonna be an unpopular character, i don't know, i just feel it in me for some reason.

You'd be surprised at how many people prefer to use The King of Triple D's.

 

[Juushichi]

With so many characters, there's bound to be unpopular ones.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Can't we just go back to PMBR members johning about Ike's recovery?

 

[metroid1117]

Smashmods appears to be down >.>

Just curious, is this the PMBR aware of this? It seems down for me as well.

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hitting ike away would make him have to recover with side-b... then you could just knock him away again... or hope he's dumb enough to do the side-b attack...

Side+B attack is a great option because (1) it lets you mix up the distance you travel from QD and (2) you don't go into free-fall if you hit the opponent with it, so you can hit opponents away and still up+B to the stage. I'm not entirely sure why you think the opponent would be "dumb" to use it.

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Also, in case anyone cares, I made a short video on Charizard. The important things that it covers are (1) application of dash-canceled jabs, (2) DSmash's range, and (3) universal kill combos with DSmash. I don't think there's anything "new" about the content of the video, but demonstrating things is better than putting it in text.

 

[Kink-Link5]

No backwards nair, Metroid?

 

[metroid1117]

No backwards nair, Metroid?

DSmash -> Fly -> reverse NAir -> (UAir ->) up+B is legit, I forgot to include that though =/.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Nair also combos into itself 4+ times and then into up-B.