Project M Social Thread

[Soft Serve]

On anti-spacie tools:

Simply because of the spacie's fast falling nature causing them to be easily juggled, chain grabed, and killed, every character ever will have tools against them. They did in Melee too: look through the melee low tier forums and try to find one that doesn't have specific sections on how to zero-death fox or gimp falco easily. When these characters receive tweaks and adjustments to allow for better movement, juggles, and kills in their other matchups, it makes perfect sense that these tools will give even better combos against fast fallers. A move that against Mario will allow for a few follow ups, not always neccesarily true combos, and frametraps/juggles, will be able to net a grab, easy combos, grounded juggles, etc etc against fast fallers. Being susceptible to easy combos and juggles in exchange for fast shhls and combos is just a part of being a fast faller.

Basically I just want to point out that these "anti-spacie tools" are all really just anti-other character tools. Moves that combo a floaty well will no doubt combo a fast faller even better, or at least set up a tech chase. So it is hard to have characters that have very little "anti-spacie" tech that still can go well with other characters.

 

[leelue]

I would not want to play that game
A very nice argument you got yourself there, capt falcon guy

 

[BJN39]

GHNeko, I've discovered just today Zelda can CG Charizard (even with right DI) to high percents, please test it to see if it's still possible. Please!

 

[GP&B]

I think the idea is that people want to avoid near-mindless, lengthy CGs. I don't have the experience or knowledge to really elaborate, but seeing Falco and D3's CGs in Brawl annoyed the piss out of me.

 

[DMG]

On anti-spacie tools:

Simply because of the spacie's fast falling nature causing them to be easily juggled, chain grabed, and killed, every character ever will have tools against them. They did in Melee too: look through the melee low tier forums and try to find one that doesn't have specific sections on how to zero-death fox or gimp falco easily. When these characters receive tweaks and adjustments to allow for better movement, juggles, and kills in their other matchups, it makes perfect sense that these tools will give even better combos against fast fallers. A move that against Mario will allow for a few follow ups, not always neccesarily true combos, and frametraps/juggles, will be able to net a grab, easy combos, grounded juggles, etc etc against fast fallers. Being susceptible to easy combos and juggles in exchange for fast shhls and combos is just a part of being a fast faller.

Basically I just want to point out that these "anti-spacie tools" are all really just anti-other character tools. Moves that combo a floaty well will no doubt combo a fast faller even better, or at least set up a tech chase. So it is hard to have characters that have very little "anti-spacie" tech that still can go well with other characters.

I posted on that earlier, that "anti spacie" tools need to be tweaked and kept in a narrow range or else it spills over to the rest of the cast. Ike gets a lot of time to move after Uthrow, he technically doesn't need that much time if you tweaked his throw to be a stricter CG like Marth. But because he does have that time, he gets free hits on a lot of other characters too. Being able to edge guard well same thing sometimes.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think the idea is that people want to avoid near-mindless, lengthy CGs.

stop letting your opponent choose FD as a spacie player

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think the idea is that people want to avoid near-mindless, lengthy CGs. I don't have the experience or knowledge to really elaborate, but seeing Falco and D3's CGs in Brawl annoyed the piss out of me.

Is it because of the damage? Otherwise, isn't waveshining much the same?

 

[`dazrin]

@Reflex
-Except, only one character can continue to waveshine someone across FD, and it's not as easy as pressing the grab button over and over again.

I'm not fighting for either argument, just something I wanted to point out in response to Reflex.

 

[GP&B]

stop letting your opponent choose FD as a spacie player

I had been running the thought of FD CGs in my head as I was posting that; didn't put a ton of thought into my post. Honestly, I was avoiding commenting on the subject since I'm not especially familiar with a lot of specific matchup dynamics, particularly %-related combos and CGs.

@Reflex, I overlooked that and was going to same thing as daze. It's just more technically demanding.

 

[9Kplus1]

Buffering a regrab / boost [pivot] grab is just as technically demanding as Waveshining consistently.

 

[DMG]

stop letting your opponent choose FD as a spacie player

He meant CG's in general. Ganon Shiek etc, not simply MARTH FOX FD GRAB GRAB GRAB. Most people would prefer combo's or throw into attack, not CG's in general. Using CG's as a balance tool is also what he ways saying he didn't like.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@Reflex, I overlooked that and was going to same thing as daze. It's just more technically demanding.

Are you suggesting the idea that the more technically demanding a tactic is, the more justified its being near-mindless and lengthy is?

I'm not trying to sound incredulous; I'm just trying to get a better understanding of where you feel the line of "stupid/unfair" and "not stupid/not unfair" is drawn.

 

[Hylian]

I don't even mind chaingrabs on spacies because well..they need a weakness lmao. Platforms also prevent these. Ganon/Link/TL/various other characters chaingrabs on the other hand are dumb.

 

[GP&B]

Are you suggesting the idea that the more technically demanding a tactic is, the more justified its being near-mindless and lengthy is?

I'm not trying to sound incredulous; I'm just trying to get a better understanding of where you feel the line of "stupid/unfair" and "not stupid/not unfair" is drawn.

At face value, the easy CGs come off as worse. Both achieve the effect of taking a lot/all control away from the player. Disregarding technical requirements, both are dumb.

I don't even mind chaingrabs on spacies because well..they need a weakness lmao. Platforms also prevent these. Ganon/Link/TL/various other characters chaingrabs on the other hand are dumb.

This, more so, is what I wanted to get at. Not so much just because spacies weaknesses, but as also said, the high throwing CGs like Marth's can be very easily countered by DI-ing towards platforms.

 

[GaretHax]

I would not want to play that game
A very nice argument you got yourself there, capt falcon guy

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285270
Honestly bugs the hell out of me, apparently it bugs other people too since this thread has 1000000 duplicates throughout the history of smashboards.
I also think people may have misunderstood me. I was saying that if characters are being given specific techs etc to deal with Spacies, if the PMBR gives Shiek her NTSC D-throw wouldn't they have to give characters specific tools to deal with Shiek to balance out the horrid near-nullification of half the cast?

Also I understand Spacies need to be exploitable, however things like bowser's armor, dk's dash attack, etc. that were given (at least in some part) to help deal with spacies bother me a bit.
Then again, short of Ike and Zelda's U-throws, it honestly makes things far more interesting imo. But I don't like chaingrabs, sorry thats just how I feel about things. I love the PM/melee because of the freedom of movement and options they afford to players. And that freedom ultimately leads to the diversity of individual matches and playstyles we all have come to love. To me having the option to only really DI-away perfectly and Still get grabbed isn't fun or interesting and praying for platforms doesn't make it much better.
Besides with the mix-ups made possible with shieks current build I honestly feel like she might be able to compete just as well, if not better, than her melee incarnation once people get used to it.

Also @ GhNeko, well yes honestly ease of access and possible human error should be factors on whether something should be possible. If Dark can screw it up, then I'm going to assume the average player wont even be able to do it in the first place, much less do it consistantly enough for it to make a difference. So perfect Drillshines on Peach good, shine shdl shine on ganon pretty damn cool, U-throw---> U-throw, d-throw (jab,ftilt,utilt,dashgrab,regrab)--> d-throw not so much, in my book at least.

Yeah what Hylain said essentially

 

[Archangel]

it always cracks me up when people compare things that can be compared...but aren't comparable.

Like drill shines with fox vs a chain grab with sheik. There is no need to nerf drill shines with Fox because it doesn't effect nearly as man people on nearly the same scale as a Dthrow from sheik. Sheik beats everyone(including herself) all the way down to Kirby and Pichu because her Dthrow is ridiculous. In fact you could argue that Fox, Falco, and Puff are above her currently simply because they don't get dthrow chain grabbed and you would have a valid point.

I personally have nothing against low % CG's and a 0-death on a spacie is nothing new...low tiers can do it.

I think the argument or counter-argument being made here is that some things take a great deal of skill to pull off. Other things have the same or greater effect with 1/10th the effort and it nullifies the effectiveness of to many characters to easily.

Takes alot of practice, skill, and to an extent luck:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QiUhr-uZlc#t=20m25s

just as effective...lacks 1/10 the skill of the previous clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d9W5oLNrRc#t=0m12s

If you see no difference...something is wrong with you.

 

[Professor Pro]

Is that what you got out of my post? I usually play Marth vs Ike nowadays because Ike's recovery is free for Marth. It's also not very hard for ROB to edgeguard if I have time to set up.

I just thought Sonic's spring gimp wasn't a very good example because it's about as far from a universal edgeguard option as you can get. A few characters like Link, ROB, and Peach can toss items down, but none of them are quite as safe, easy, and quick as spring or have that gimp angle.

Snake is another character that can disrupt (I wouldn't say gimp) or kill Ike during his recovery.
Since the hitbox of the C4 explosion extends greatly below you can ALWAYS get a hit on his Up B with the right timing, even if he is in sweetspot range.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I personally have nothing against low % CG's and a 0-death on a spacie is nothing new...low tiers can do it.

I think the argument or counter-argument being made here is that some things take a great deal of skill to pull off. Other things have the same or greater effect with 1/10th the effort and it nullifies the effectiveness of to many characters to easily.

What if a take a great deal of skill to pull off AND it nullifies the effectiveness of "too many characters too easily?"

Also, does that make boring, no-skill tactics that invalidate very specific matchups are acceptable?

 

[Xebenkeck]

I don't want to get too much into this debate of chainggrabs but all I will say is that:

Chaingrabs create characters of extremes. A character can be completely nullifyed if they get chaingrabbed hard. Likewise a character can be good because of their chaingrabs, DDD in Brawl is a good example of this.

Characters of extremes are near impossible to balance because no matter what they will have a huge array of match-up spread. Meaning they will **** certain characters but be hard countered by others. Which in a game that is striving for competetive balance, this does not lend itself to the goal of the project. If you have to switch off your second match because of fear of being hard-countered due to a chaingrab, the character you are playing is not balanced.

The only exception to this are the IC's. They are a very special case of chaingrabs, in that the chaingrab itself can effectivly be nullifyed by killing Nana. No other chaingrab in smash can.

 

[DMG]

It's not only that, but they have unique gameplay options offered because you can control both of them. Which makes it at least more interesting than a single character just endlessly grabbing/til death

 

[Hylian]

Agreed about IC's. You always have the option of taking away their chaingrab which gives them a great dynamic as a character.

 

[metroid1117]

Agreed about IC's. You always have the option of taking away their chaingrab which gives them a great dynamic as a character.

Hylian, I'm just curious - as an ICs main in Brawl (and Melee? I think), would you consider switching back to them when they're released?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Handoffs are dumb and this is coming from someone who uses the character. There's plenty of places to go and things to do with Ice Climbers that have nothing to do with chain grabs. They offer such a fun dynamic in what makes safe options safe that it's silly that all they get known for is wobbling and handoffs.

And occasionally blizzard walling

 

[Hylian]

Hylian, I'm just curious - as an ICs main in Brawl (and Melee? I think), would you consider switching back to them when they're released?

I main Fox/Falco in melee.

But yeah I will try them out when they are released, I am pretty excited for them. I love controlling two characters at once, though this is the first game I've enjoyed link in so I might just secondary them or samus. Really depends on how they turn out.

 

[joY]

Exclusive Project: M tournament in Pomona, CA!

Hosted by yours truly.

Link here

 

[Jonny Westside]

Hey just wondering....will Charizard get that Flamethrower buff that Bowser has currently? You know that bite that occurs right after flamethrower. @_@

 

[B.W.]

I don't think he needs it. If Zard has anything better than Bowser it's Flamethrower.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Firebreath is a lot better than Flamethrower, but the latter doesn't need a bite or anything of the sort to be made better. Besides the point that the move doesn't need to be good and anything it could offer is easily compensated by changes that can be made to the entirety of the rest of his moveset, the only really sensible change for it would be to have it land cancel the SpecialAirNEnd after some point giving him a sort-of projectile and AtG option. Not land cancel too soon or it would frame trap for a free grab everytime, but just after a bit to make it a safe option used properly.

 

[stingers]

flamethrower doesnt really need anything, its a decent enough move. I don't know what they could really do that would make sense. flame cancelling would be cool but doesn't really fit into anything charizard has a problem with (his nair covers his landing pretty awesomely already which is what flame cancelling is good for defensively, and the slightly longer range already helps offensively). the bite would stop people from sdiing through and ****** you, but you can already kinda prevent that with angling it up and down. people can still make it through, but its a bit harder, and theres nothing wrong with rewarding good play.

 

[MaxThunder]

well if the ike knows that you'll commit to the offguard while he's trying to recover low, qd attack is still a good recovery mixup like metroid said, even if it isn't a walled stage. he can aether out of pretty quickly so he most likely wouldn't ko.

... you just sorta just repeated what metroid said and completely ignored my argument... well done...

 

[`dazrin]

Well, since people are plugging in their tournaments, and mine is happening this week, might as well do the same:

Melee in the Hold 6/ ProjectMpire 3 [MitH6/PMp3] feat. Gimpyfish62, Silentwolf, Bladewise, Sion, and more will be going down this Saturday, the 27th and will all be livestreamed on my channel. Don't miss it!! :D

 

[Archangel]

What if a take a great deal of skill to pull off AND it nullifies the effectiveness of "too many characters too easily?"

If it takes a great deal of skill it can't "easily" nullify but it can be nullfied. If the character is mediocre or worse. Assuming Project M Meets the goal you shouldn't have to worry about characters like Fox/Falco skillfully shutting down D,E,F,G tiers. If Project M meets it's goal nothing D,E,F,and G tier shouldn't even exist. S, A,B, and C at the lowest should be all that remains and while difficult C tiers in the right hands can beat S-B tiers.

Also, does that make boring, no-skill tactics that invalidate very specific matchups are acceptable?

Acceptable tactics are up to those who make the rules. I personally don't believe any match should end in a time out but I realize without a time limit some matches would end after 30minutes to an hour. Also it's hard to define what is skillful to a certain extent. If someone decides to plank on the ledge it invalidates matchups if it's legal. If it's not legal to stall then it changes nothing. If you get camped out/timed by a projectile spammer on Rumble falls then that somewhat your fault for not striking,banning it or not switching to another character(whichever you deem more fitting). It's also the fault of those who designed the characters, and last but not least it's the fault of those running the tournament. If there is stalling and posing but no fighting and it's against the rules then rules should be made against stalling and actually enforced.

Once again this is something that should be of little concern by the time Project M is complete. Project M is a game of the people, by the people, for the people. Lets not forget that unlike melee if some things end up wrong it's not like it has to stay that way for 11 years.

 

[GHNeko]

Here's a radical idea.

Disable IC's taunts completely.

AND

Map C-stick for Nana to Dpad.

Dpad Up on the ground? Nana Usmashes.
Dpad Back in the Air? Nana Bairs.
Dpad Forward while shielding? Nana Forward Rolls before sliding back to Popo.

etc etc.

Thoughts?

 

[B.W.]

Too weird an input. That actually sounds like it would be more uncomfortable than desyncing them. I liked how they worked in Melee and don't think they should change all that much. Just some tweaks here and there.

 

[Onomanic]

Gimpyfish?! I thought he quit smash, good to see him around.

I wonder who he plays in P:M.

 

[foshio]

Yeah... i mean if nana isn't full idiotic all of the time the ICs are great characters. She was always just kinda terrible at sticking with popo. Buff her resync and thats all you really need...

 

[jalued]

Here's a radical idea.

Disable IC's taunts completely.

AND

Map C-stick for Nana to Dpad.

Dpad Up on the ground? Nana Usmashes.
Dpad Back in the Air? Nana Bairs.
Dpad Forward while shielding? Nana Forward Rolls before sliding back to Popo.

etc etc.

Thoughts?

Is that possible to code? It would completely change how IC's play and feel, but I have always wanted to be able to fully control 2 characters. I think it should definately be tested.

Perhaps just make nana's throws controlled from the d-pad?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Here's a radical idea.

Disable IC's taunts completely.

AND

Map C-stick for Nana to Dpad.

Dpad Up on the ground? Nana Usmashes.
Dpad Back in the Air? Nana Bairs.
Dpad Forward while shielding? Nana Forward Rolls before sliding back to Popo.

etc etc.

Thoughts?

I like it, mostly because Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 did something similar with Kankuro, and that's the greatest fighting game of all time.

 

[MonkUnit]

Gimpyfish?! I thought he quit smash, good to see him around.

I wonder who he plays in P:M.

Bowser

 

[Shadow Huan]

Bowser

must see.