Project M Social Thread

[iLink]

Where do we draw the line then? As long as a character doesn't have an infinite then he isn't OP? Where does p:m's mission statement fall into this?

Can we give Link sheik's dthrow? He probably wouldn't be the best character with it anyway.

I really have no reason to care either way, I don't use sheik nor do I use a character that is heavily effected by her throw. It just bothers me that something that is a clear design flaw is being left in when we have the ability to shape it.

 

[Strong Badam]

Balance is relative. If 39 characters all had infinites that were of comparable ease to start, the game would be balanced. Really ****ing stupid, but balanced.

I think Falco's laser is a clear design flaw. I think PM would be laughed at by a large amount of people if it were removed.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

You said "breaks matchups"....

And yes... we will decide... you do know that I am PMBR, correct?

Broken matchup does not equal "unwinnable" (a broken move can be beaten sometimes) but I can see why it would cause confusion.
I'm perfectly aware that you're part of the PMBR but you're also not the only one in there.

Edit: Also, It doesn't matter who laughs. It's for the good of the game not for popularity. I know how important it is to the PMBR to get lots of people to play but we're not remaking melee.
Maybe its just me who thinks that way but..
To me customers are good but it shouldn't be all about how much we can please them. The same way a band shouldn't always sell out.

 

[genkaku]

All disputes now to be settled by MMs
Ready? Go!

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i am posting again in this topic to say that i have stalkers out there

STALKERS I TELL YOU

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

All disputes now to be settled by MMs
Ready? Go!

He's right,

Let them decide.
(Ok... that was probably to vague)

i am posting again in this topic to say that i have stalkers out there

STALKERS I TELL YOU

Catch and eat their very souls.

Spoiler

Gotta catch 'em all!

Edit: Did smashboards go down for anyone else for a bit there?

 

[Cubelarooso]

ONO he found me!

 

[`dazrin]

I'm going to make a real effort to come out to more Smash events in Vancouver and you'll have my support for P:M. If people aren't interested then we can have a P:M setup and if the game lives up to the hype then people will be naturally inclined to try it out and hopefully love it.

duuude. when the 2nd demo is released, we gotta go to ALL THE EVENTS and play pm there to build hype and get others into it :D

To clarify, 'daze, I wasn't talking about TL Nair. I was talking about recreating the neutral attack from Adventure of Link. Modified to fit YL's frame data, of course, which I think could have looked perfectly natural next to his Uair and Dair, and not required doubling the length of a body part that was specifically designed to be short.
Anyway, I concede. I'll shut up about it now.

Mind posting a pic of the AoL neutral attack? Not very famililar with the older zelda games simply because I was much too young/ wasn't born yet to play them in their time of popularity and all that Call me an ****** or whatever for being a YL main and not having played zelda 2, but yeah, I haven't played zelda 2. prooblem?

 

[Archangel]

I think Falco's laser is a clear design flaw. I think PM would be laughed at by a large amount of people if it were removed.

Falco's laser has nothing on lvl 9 cpus so why should it be removed?

when was the last time you saw somebody shield reflect Sheik's Down throw?

 

[phurgawtin]

Mind posting a pic of the AoL neutral attack?

not the best example, since the player gets hit right after using it, but its a simple animation
http://youtu.be/wxiCgBt-dPo?t=3m48s

 

[9Kplus1]

Falco's laser has nothing on lvl 9 cpus so why should it be removed?

when was the last time you saw somebody shield reflect Sheik's Down throw?

Technically yes. Icy powershields his own Dthrows.

 

[`dazrin]

not the best example, since the player gets hit right after using it, but its a simple animation
http://youtu.be/wxiCgBt-dPo?t=3m48s

Oh. So it's pretty much toonlink's fair, then? o-o

I don't even see how that animation could be used the same way as YLnair is used and make sense at the same time.. but eh. I'll drop the topic now as well lol.

 

[Starscream]

duuude. when the 2nd demo is released, we gotta go to ALL THE EVENTS and play pm there to build hype and get others into it :D

Fosho. If there's a Smashfest at Stronghold on Tuesday then I'm there. Although I'm always working on Thursdays and Sundays and those seem to be the main Smashfest days so it's pretty hard for me to make it to stuff. D:

 

[foshio]

So many BC people stalk this thread. I approve (I was totally the first and most silent)

 

[`dazrin]

whoa. i had no idea you stalked this thread, foshio lol O: maybe the BC project:M scene won't be so bad after all! O:

 

[Juushichi]

So, assuming that Sheik keeps her Dthrow CG what determines how badly a character gets ***** from it? Poor tech rolls? Bad defensive options? Fall speed?

I know and have seen various characters do well vs her with the CG (various Luigi's because they're ****, Axe's Pika--- even though people say that his reign will usually be ended by one in tournament, I guess P:M DK if SB's call is truly correct) but you still have Falcon who, in spite of mains doing pretty well with him, still gets scrapped. I can imagine that GnW with his poor defense and awful rolls gets the D, too.

Though, the more I think about it. The more it seems like Sheik kinda needs her NTSC d-throw to cement her place among the highest tiered characters in the game. Especially in a game like this where you have characters who outspeed her, probably gimp better, have better recoveries (Luigi, thank god), have much bigger hit boxes, so on and so on. I guess if she can land a grab, she might as well get something substantial from it. *shrug*

Oh, I do have a suggestion that I was thinking of (and mentioned on JC's Saturday stream). Sonic's f-tilt. I would love oh so much if you were able to make it work similarly to Luigi's Melee (NTSC?, dunno if he has a huge difference) f-tilt and by that I mean, it's a good, meaty poke, stuffs some stuff, does a decent job at maybe getting people offstage. Maybe slow down Zelda's up-tilt by a few frames too? I mean, that move is also extremely good, comes out fast and kills early.

But Pikachu, man. Not-so-secret top tier character, imo. Brawl QAC, Brawl Thunder, 64 bair and Melee everything else? All in one character? You guys are crazy. I say that in the most loving way possible.

 

[9Kplus1]

Sheik has DI trap throws, a wall cling, crawl (makes powershielding projectiles while approaching so much easier), and her new Down B. She doesn't need her NTSC bull**** to "cement" her place among the top tiers -- never has and never will. This especially true once you consider that Sheik can be carried to the top by Zelda if anything should happen to change the future tier list

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I'd think besides the Sheik player, the physics and rolls determine the ****.
I can't imagine anyone thinking Sheik isn't viable without the CG. We don't want to purposely make people higher in the tier list than others. From my understanding of the project goals it would be ideal to have as little contrast on the tier list as possible... bringing all the old bad characters up to top tier level.

 

[tripwire]

wait o.O Shiek has a new Down B?

 

[leelue]

@mch12
It should be fall speed and techroll time+distance that determine how good her down throw is. Aerial mobility may or may not play a role (I don't remember).
A very large character also has a disadvantage and a character with a frame 3 aerial will do a liiiiiiittle better than a random Joe like DK.

@tripwire
Yeah she transforms into this male named zelda who, on command, ***** all of the lesser characters in the game like falco and master hand.

 

[tripwire]

lol thats nothing new

 

[Strong Badam]

PAL dthrow still tech-chases FFers IIRC.

also Luigi does not get CG'd by Sheik in any version of Melee or PM lol

 

[leelue]

I was talking about susceptibility to the down throw in general. I didn't specify CG or not.

 

[Rubyiris]

Response about ryoko: I don't know much about the Guy's p:m record. When watching his sets, I saw the following:

A player with clear 06/07 minder/habits. Out dated peach strats, Randy *** rolls and spot dodges that were consistently punished.

A player who obviously knew less about the match up than Magus. Throughout the sets it was glaringly obvious that ryoko really had no idea how to do anything to Ike both offensively, and defensively, which imo reinforces how bad Ike if they go even with gimmick/surprises in full force, and generally solid play by Magus.

Maybe he was sandbagging, but I dont know enough about the Guy outside of melee to make that distinction. All I see is a Guy who's stuck in 06/07 mindsets and getting ****wrecked for it.

 

[Kink-Link5]

"Brawl isn't melee"
So?
Explain to me what that means to Project M (and why it's so different than the games its modeled after.)

While you tell me that it doesn't count then explain why some stages are gone. Isn't it because of how unfair they make some matchups? We should do everything we can to make things fair while keeping advantages. If sheiks downthrow is in the way then so be it.

Marth's infinites on Lucas/Ness, and other brawl infinites were removed not because they are overwhelming, but because they are a major "lol, brawl" aspect, and have no place in a melee environment. Don't site Brawl examples when dealing with issues related to Melee because they are completely irrelevant.

That is what it has to do with Project M.


Stages are banned because they are counter intuitive to the player vs player aspect of matches. Stadium is allowed because its transformations last for a only a short while, Onnet and Temple are banned because they weigh the match more heavily on Run Away tactics and generally degrade the game.

 

[MonkUnit]

But look at the things you can do with Onett's cars

 

[leelue]

But look at the things you can do with Onett's cars

Where do people find awesome clips like that?

Also, that magus play was pretty.

And If Rubyiris is to believed about ryoko's play, then I am 100% fine with those matches. Ike is a new character so I'm not expecting him to blaze through a top-level-in-2012 peach or sheik. If ryoko was playing Armada level smash and Magus was still winning a majority of games in the 20th match, then I'd be complaining about the power level of the new characters all over again.

I still need to be shown what Umbreonmow was talking about concerning Ike's "critical flaws".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsOVSA8tFv4
At about 13:11 in, I don't know if I like the angle that toad sends ike on. It seems a bit lower than what I'm used to (although I don't exactly have a perfect memory of toad's utility in melee).

 

[jalued]

PAL dthrow still tech-chases FFers IIRC.

also Luigi does not get CG'd by Sheik in any version of Melee or PM lol

I respect you completely for being in the backroom, but you cant back up your arguments with false information like this.

Sheiks PAL dthrow will ONLY chaingrab if the opponent DI's in (which you should never do against sheiks anyway) , the best DI to escape her ftilt followups is down and away. That's why i don't understand why i saw streams where people were moaning that they couldn't DI the move correctly...

 

[Kink-Link5]

For the record I'm fine with Ike being terrible, but he definitely is so.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Well, I can't just leave a claim I made unjustified, can I?

It would have you be his jumping crouch stab, not his "neutral" air stab to "replicate" the current sex kick Nair. The standing stab would be way too high-up.

Not with WW proportions, it wouldn't.

Mock up, compared with original sprite and Young Link Nair. Some other YL attack frames thrown in there for comparison, to stave off the inevitable claims of huge/janky/unrealistic hitboxes. Because honestly, there's a lot more leeway in suspension of disbelief regarding hitboxes than most people realize.

 

[phurgawtin]

would a disjointed sex aerial be too powerful, though?

 

[Kink-Link5]

No, but I personally think it would look pretty terrible. These are the same spites used when Link is standing, remember.

 

[leelue]

Does anyone know where ninjalink goes to school? This guy over here looks just like him.

 

[`dazrin]

... Yeah, I personally think that a sex stab like that would look really awkward lol

SHFFLing sex stabs whee

 

[Stevo]

I think the easiest way to predict how good a character is for those of us who have not played much/any PM is to compare the character to one in melee. This obviously works especially well for characters who were IN melee, but we can do it for others. I would compare Ike to Ganondorf personally. Ganondorf was not the best character in melee, but he was up there. I don't see Ike being much if at all worse than Gonondorf is.

In the end most of us should just wait for demo 2 before making judgements. Project M will inevitably have a different metagame than melee, so we can only speculate on what we know from 10 years of melee.

 

[KingClubber]

And it's not a sex stab in zelda 2 it's just a jab, so it shouldn't have lingering hit-boxes. I don't think it should be changed it's best with the sex kick.

 

[Ecks]

When thinking of a sex stab the only thing that comes to mind is turning Tink's dair on its side. lol

Anyway, I personally believe there's nothing wrong with having weird proportions on moves (see: the rest of the small characters). Although it is kinda strange since a sex kick stays out for a while.

 

[Virum]

To be honest, the only way I can see a sex kick move involving the sword that doesn't look completely dumb and out of place would be if he spun his sword fast like Pit does, and even then that effect works much better because of the fact that Pit has a double edged sword.

 

[Mono.]

I'm at a disadvantage. There's video proof of Ike doing good things but no good proof of what his problems are. I lose.

I'll just settle with the fact that I'm *** at this game and I have to become stronger.

/ryu

 

[`dazrin]

I'm at a disadvantage. There's video proof of Ike doing good things but no good proof of what his problems are. I lose.

I'll just settle with the fact that I'm *** at this game and I have to become stronger.

/ryu

Manly words.