Project M Social Thread

[Octorox]

Edit: As far as Tink goes, I think still images don't do the move justice. Animation flaws pop a lot in stills. The move looks very natural in-game. Gadget legs is a pretty big overstatement in my experience.

Also, the move has recently been cleaned up a bit and looks quite a bit more natural than in that particular image.

 

[Haloedhero]

Yes, that screen is actually outdated. The nair animation currently looks much better, even with the left leg still stretched that far.

 

[Deleted member]

i disagree with SB and agree with ryoko: the CG is overall poor design and probably should have never existed. downthrow CGs are fundamentally different from upthrow in that it hits a much larger range of cast and can't be removed via the counterpick system. consider that sheik can't CG anyone but herself in the top tier and you realize that yeah, maybe sheik by herself keeps the other characters nonviable. and she does.

to keep NTSC downthrow exactly as is is a poor move. i tried asking ryoko to make it such that fair/bair/nair/upair/tilts/jabs could be linked out of downthrow while making the CG itself a poor or extremely difficult link or a limited range of say less than 30%. from a design point of view, i'm not sure that's even possible. it's just easier to make her upthrow perform the same function.

 

[Giygacoal]

consider that sheik can't CG anyone but herself in the top tier and you realize that yeah, maybe sheik by herself keeps the other characters nonviable.

I've read that she can CG Fox around 115%. Of course this probably wouldn't affect her matchup with Fox, but is this true?

 

[`dazrin]

If Toon Link's gonna be in the Demo, Nair needs changing.
I'd always kinda assumed the only reason it had never been changed was because it wasn't a priority. What other reason is there?
A stab reminiscent of AoL's neutral attack could retain the exact same hitboxes and utility, with only some minor changes to hurtbox. In fact, it'd actually gain utility by becoming disjointed.
The Inspector-Gadget legs are jarring and uncharacteristic, and should be fixed. It'd also increase the aesthetic quality for those who don't think it's currently a problem, by creating a triad of symmetry with Uair and Dair, and this thread seems to be filled with Zelda 2 fans.
Not only would it fix aesthetics and retain utility, it would actually improve upon Melee in both.

Other than that, this has got me super hyped. YL is my bro's main in Melee, so this is quite relevant to my interests.
Waiting for Pikachu now, in the next Demo or even if it's not 'til the full build, then it'll be like old times. Or, more like current times. But with that new times smell.


*Note: They will always complain, but it would have no influence in light of the facts.

God, for the last damn time, Tlink's nair is absolutely PERFECT.

Nair is one of YL's best moves and is an absolute core aspect of his whole playstyle/moveset. I can PM you multiple videos to show all of it's applications and ultility if you'd like, just so I can visually SHOW you. You would be doing your brother a huge disservice if nair was reverted back to the way it was in brawl. Now, I'm not saying vbrawl TL nair is a bad move, but YL's nair is just such a huge part of what makes Young Link, Young link; which was the aim of Toon Link:M in the first place, since he replaced YL in brawl. I would list all of the reasons why YL's nair is so good and doesn't need to be reverted, but I have somewhere to go in about 10 minutes >_> (But I guess I'd be saving myself a load of time since no matter how much I argue how good TL's current nair is, it won't be reverted to vbrawl nair anyways because the PMBR is smart that way. There's a reason YL's nair was given back to him)

Just because it looked a little strange in one screenshot you saw is no where near enough reason enough to revert the BEST change to toonlink:M. You're basically just saying "WELL, I SAW IT IN A PICTURE, AND IT LOOKS WEIRD. SO MANY ZELDA2 FANS IN HURR, Y U NO CHANGE DEN? WE CAN MAKE NAIR DISJOINTED JUST LIKE ALL HIS OTHER MOVES!! HUEHUEHUEHUE"

I'm sorry, I apologize for the immaturity. It just boils my brain when someone tries to argue that TL's nair > YL's nair- let alone because of an asthetic gripe.

 

[FireBall Stars]

"WELL, I SAW IT IN A PICTURE, AND IT LOOKS WEIRD. SO MANY ZELDA2 FANS IN HURR, Y U NO CHANGE DEN? WE CAN MAKE NAIR DISJOINTED JUST LIKE ALL HIS OTHER MOVES!! HUEHUEHUEHUE"

I am offensive and I find this brazillian.

auhehueahuae

 

[ph00tbag]

I agree with Umbreon that giving uthrow a more combo oriented utility while removing dthrow's cg is a good way to go about making Sheik a more balanced character. The cg really is both a boring, and a centralizing aspect of the character, even if most people don't complain about it these days.

Basically, you can inherently buff the cast by the same margin with one change, or buff them with varying, unpredictable margins with twenty changes. I know whenever I harp on about efficiency and elegance, it tends to fall on deaf ears, but it just seems like nerfing dthrow is a really nice time-saver.

 

[leelue]

As a sheik main, I'm fine with the down throw changes that existed in the most recent build that I played.
If the character really needs to be able to chain grab mario or yoshi or dk for a minute and a half in order to win, to hell with that.

Also
GuruKid failed to show up for my smashfest on saturday. Grumble.
Grumble.
Salty

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Also
GuruKid failed to show up for my smashfest on saturday. Grumble.
Grumble.
Salty

Welcome to GuruKid.

 

[Deleted member]

sheik's downthrow > kill aerial gives her a sense of inevitability that other characters don't have. it basically says "i can kill you at 120" so she doesn't have to get camped out while fishing for a kill move. it's the guaranteed aspect that makes it so good though. as is, yes you can downthrow or backthrow into a kill move, but it's not guaranteed. sheik's inability to have a surefire kill method is hugely debilitating to this character, since she already basically gets camped out to reliably beat her so she just turns into a marth with less range. it also means she has to work much harder to play around crouching, something she was very good at overcoming before.

i usually list a guaranteed throw > kill move as a fundamental requirement for a character to be "good". you guys are obviously fine with ******** autocombos backed by excessive range and things like move > guaranteed kill @ 110% ala ZSS. marth being gimped in that regard makes sense, but sheik does not.

 

[leelue]

It's difficult to say whether or not my throws were gauranteed in the build I played. Without actually sitting down and having a willing subject to test DIs, I don't know.

Also, JC, you know a DK main named Will from LI? I played him yesrterday

 

[Kink-Link5]

Basically, you can inherently buff the cast by the same margin with one change, or buff them with varying, unpredictable margins with twenty changes. I know whenever I harp on about efficiency and elegance, it tends to fall on deaf ears, but it just seems like nerfing dthrow is a really nice time-saver.

Sheik's down throw isn't what's holding Ness and Luigi back.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i'm watching a set of matches of magus using ike against ryokos zelda and sheik and i'd have to give a big ****ing LOL to those of you who think he's terrible. i hope they don't change him at all just to spite y'all.

theorysmash FTL and L2P plz

 

[Kink-Link5]

I disagree. Ike is awful and gets rushed down worse than Bowser did in Melee. At least he had Fortress OoS.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I disagree. Ike is awful and gets rushed down worse than Bowser did in Melee. At least he had Fortress OoS.

this man speaks from experience

 

[Mattnumbers]

this man speaks from experience

This man speaks from anecdotal evidence

 

[Kink-Link5]

No wait, Bowser didn't have fortress OoS, that was Yoshi I was thinking of.

 

[jalued]

I disagree. Ike is awful and gets rushed down worse than Bowser did in Melee. At least he had Fortress OoS.

marth also has problemi s with rushdown, but he is still high tier in melee.

 

[JCaesar]

Also, JC, you know a DK main named Will from LI? I played him yesrterday

Was his head on fire? If so, yep.

 

[moleman915]

Just out of curiosity, is it possible to completely manipulate the interface of the menus yet? Like change the shape, color, and location of all the buttons?

Also, how frequent are these character revealings going to be? Once every week? Once every few days?

 

[9Kplus1]

I hope that Ike gets a sword soon

 

[leelue]

@JC yup
@moleman
Whenever

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Maybe its just b/c i am hyped for project m but all the sudden i am feeling hyped for toon link. I did enjoy using ylink in melee so maybe i will give toon link a try

 

[Kink-Link5]

marth also has problemi s with rushdown, but he is still high tier in melee.

Marth also has an invincible DP OoS and third largest grab in the game.

 

[MonkUnit]

Just out of curiosity, is it possible to completely manipulate the interface of the menus yet? Like change the shape, color, and location of all the buttons?

Also, how frequent are these character revealings going to be? Once every week? Once every few days?

Not that I know of. No one has really tried doing any menu stuff for several+ months.

The frequency will be whenever want to release the next write-up.

 

[Rikana]

Using upb oos with marth is not worth throwing out often because it's too risky.

 

[9Kplus1]

Rikana, does most of Canada like Project:M yet?

 

[`dazrin]

BC scene generally doesn't like project:m.
Most of them are like "yeah, its actually kinda fun.... but it's not melee :/" and one guy i know REALLY hates it. He's all like "Project:m is brawl with an identity problem! If you like melee, play melee- if you like brawl play brawl >:[ :madmadmadmad:"

Not sure how the rest of Canada thinks O:

 

[Cubelarooso]

someone tries to argue that TL's nair > YL's nair

Believe me, I know how important a tool YL's Nair. That's why I said to keep all of its properties. It'd still be the exact same move, just that it wouldn't look bad. And I'm not just talking about that picture, I've seen it in the streams, and regardless of how many tweaks are made to the animation, I doubt TL kicking can ever look good.

To the claims that it doesn't look bad: I realize that appearance is entirely subjective, that's why I presented less-subjective justifications for a sex stab. I wouldn't go so far as to say a minor improvement to priority and a canonical reference are good in an objective sense (some might feel that TL's already overpowered as it is or that AoL is a game best forgotten), but they're more substantial than aesthetics alone, and I would say they are aligned with the project goals.

What would be the most reasonable counterargument against my stance – disinterest on the part of the animators themselves – has never even been hinted at; and considering all the other amazing changes already made (many of which also have no mechanical impact), and even the creation of the TL sex kick itself, I'm still hesitant to conclude that that's the case.

So then what is holding it back? Some say it looks okay as is, but I imagine they'd say it would look okay as it could be, and I'm not the first to say it does not look okay… It'd have no negative effect on YL gameplay, and not even any more neutral effects than there are currently considering TL's hurtboxes are already insubstantially different from YL's simply by nature of having different proportions, so that angle's been covered…

 

[Mattnumbers]

I don't see how AoL's air attack could be any less awkward looking than his current nair (although I don't even think it looks awkward) especially not if it was inexplicably a sex kick.

 

[ph00tbag]

Sheik's down throw isn't what's holding Ness and Luigi back.

You say this as if it invalidates my point.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Using upb oos with marth is not worth throwing out often because it's too risky.

My point still stands that Marth has a significantly easier time dealing with pressure than Ike.

You say this as if it invalidates my point.

When you try to make several points at once it's hard to keep track. Sheik's down throw nerf is not a buff to the tiers below her who would still have horrible matchups without it.

 

[iLink]

I thought they were being reworked to not have horrible matchups though. Am I missing something here?

 

[Samus-T]

It's almost march! Give us a release date already!!! Super duper hype!!

 

[Kink-Link5]

I thought they were being reworked to not have horrible matchups though. Am I missing something here?

I speak in terms of Melee. Ph00tbag believes that nerfing the things that beat low tier characters as an artificial buff is better than just buffing them, from what I can tell.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

When you try to make several points at once it's hard to keep track. Sheik's down throw nerf is not a buff to the tiers below her who would still have horrible matchups without it.

C'mon man, don't just blow it off without thinking about it. ಠ_ಠ
Still have horrible matches? probably.
But you can't simply deny it would give a huge part of the cast a chance at actually keeping up with her. I could have swore it was said long ago that the team doesn't want many 90/10 match-ups. Either way your logic of "They'll still have a disadvantage so lets do nothing" is just silly. You will never make progress in the field of balance if you think(?) like that.

Ph00tbag believes that nerfing the things that beat low tier characters as an artificial buff is better than just buffing them, from what I can tell.

And Metaknight was not nerfed to give the people below him a chance?

 

[9Kplus1]

It's almost march! Give us a release date already!!! Super duper hype!!

And that's another week of getting trolled :|

 

[Yeroc]

D-throw is something of a tipping point. Removing it doesn't fix bad matchups all by itself, but it certainly makes the job easier by not being so automatically one-sided.

 

[I R MarF]

My point still stands that Marth has a significantly easier time dealing with pressure than Ike.

When you try to make several points at once it's hard to keep track. Sheik's down throw nerf is not a buff to the tiers below her who would still have horrible matchups without it.

Ike should have threatening strength like Ganon. Ganon has basically no OoS options, but most characters respect his space because of how much KB and damage his attacks have. Since Ike has perhaps the second longest disjointed range on his normal attacks, a buff like this would make his punish game ridiculous to alleviate his weakness to pressure.

Honestly, I'd rather see an enhancement to a character's strengths than see a band-aid slapped on every little issue with the character. Especially one that is almost entirely subjective to matches with Fox, Falco, and maybe Wolf. And Peach, while also having a good pressure game, has pretty bad forward hitboxes aside from maybe like Dash Attack and I don't see how Ike couldn't outrange her.

 

[`dazrin]

Believe me, I know how important a tool YL's Nair. That's why I said to keep all of its properties. It'd still be the exact same move, just that it wouldn't look bad. And I'm not just talking about that picture, I've seen it in the streams, and regardless of how many tweaks are made to the animation, I doubt TL kicking can ever look good.

To the claims that it doesn't look bad: I realize that appearance is entirely subjective, that's why I presented less-subjective justifications for a sex stab. I wouldn't go so far as to say a minor improvement to priority and a canonical reference are good in an objective sense (some might feel that TL's already overpowered as it is or that AoL is a game best forgotten), but they're more substantial than aesthetics alone, and I would say they are aligned with the project goals.

What would be the most reasonable counterargument against my stance – disinterest on the part of the animators themselves – has never even been hinted at; and considering all the other amazing changes already made (many of which also have no mechanical impact), and even the creation of the TL sex kick itself, I'm still hesitant to conclude that that's the case.

So then what is holding it back? Some say it looks okay as is, but I imagine they'd say it would look okay as it could be, and I'm not the first to say it does not look okay… It'd have no negative effect on YL gameplay, and not even any more neutral effects than there are currently considering TL's hurtboxes are already insubstantially different from YL's simply by nature of having different proportions, so that angle's been covered…

Oh. so your argument is purely an aesthetic complaint? lol

Speaking from actually having played with it in person, it looked fine to me; I have no problems. I would actually imagine that TLnair animation with YLnair properties would look even stranger lol

The animators already did the work to recreate the YLnair animation, and in my opinion, they did a fine job. Even if they wanted to revert the animation, I doubt they would take the time to even try with demo2 just around the corner- and I highly doubt that they would "un-confirm" toonlink for demo2 just to "fix" an animation they already poured work into and has been used for an extremely long time lol