Project M Social Thread

[crazycrackers]

Anyway, for MK's recovery, first off, I think he should go into special fall after gliding from jump, and I also believe that his glide attack should get a significant priority nerf because it beats out a ridiculous amount of stuff. In addition, upB shouldn't put him into glide, and mach tornado has a ridiculous amount of horizontal distance.

 

[Deleted member]

Why are people talking about nerfing/buffing recoveries and tripping so much right now?

Unless it's a Melee char's recovery, nobody knows how well these other issues will fare in balance in the public beta for better or worse.

Nerfing things like bananas, tripping, and recoveries is just stupid when the overall engine isn't complete. Nobody knows how well the new features work or don't work until complete physics and extensive beta character match ups.

Also, an idea for that Mario Fair on Cstick:
Map a diagonal key on the Cstick for a different fair and a horizontal for another?

 

[Dai Tian]

If things on him haven't changed from the last time I saw him then Metaknight currently doesn't even have jumps. He can go up with them but he very quickly loses altitude and just starts going lower and lower with each one. As it is he's gonna need his glides to make it back from anything.

The team's gonna have recoveries covered, I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[Sterowent]

well, most of the people here don't know how to refine codes and such for the project, nor do they have access to the game (of course, some exceptions...love those streams).
and, really, it's not hard to spot things like ROB's and MK's recovery in a game like melee. they really are superior, though MK's has taken a beating. except his side-B, which goes hella long.
as well, tripping is PART of the overall engine. might as well define how to meleefy mechanics as much as we can, even into beta if necessary.

this is stuff everyone can do, especially melee players.

still lacking character suggestions for deeper games, though. ike got something, though it needs more development. who Doesn't have a sexy gimmick?

note: brawl+ changes refer to one of the GSH# builds, from what i recall, as well as a few changes crafted by shanus himself

mario - fireball combos?, gimping tools, fair/nair hybrid, walljump recovery, fullcharged downB recovery(?), still bad recovery and priority
DK - big range, big KO power, upB killer, paunch combos, sideB works better in brawl, xbawksHuge
link - projectiles(same as b+?), ground upB melee, AGT zair/bombs, recovery beast techniques, no wallgrab(sadface), KO power but laggy, bad recovery even still
samus - super recovery, canceling missiles, upB hasn't been revamped (yet?), AGT zair (no wallgrabs though ((sadface)) ), other stuff?
kirby - kirbycide, throwcides?, grappler status, uair brawl(?), 64 nair, jumps nerfed for P:M, still light
fox - melee (that's it)
pikachu - upB brawl shenanigans (WD out too), no idea what else
marth - bigger sword, tipper got melee big?, melee(or on the way)
GaW - oh god nair without reaction frames, nair nair nair, melee recovery, iunno what else
luigi - pimpin WD again, no idea though
diddy - bananas crazy good, dash attack needs CC countering (4 surius), bananas
sheik - meleeing, need upB ledgecancel(?)
zelda - priority hog, seems same as b+, still light as ****
FIT - sexy comboing, arrow combos (rumored, loop arrow combos), works in melee setting, recovery still sketchy, though jumps compensated some
meleeknight - FFer, pretty fun to watch, recovery also sketchy, hugely nerfed (except for side-B (( big exception )) )
falco - melee, even nair, has melee fsmash, shine hitstun needs fixed so shadow until then, sideB and upB being altered
PT - same as b+
Charizard - showing his weight in how he moves, much like b+, except recovery is sketchy right now
Ivysaur - looks awesome in P:M ( dair all day ), wondering if will get wallgrabs ( if ever available ), still vuln to fire, don't know what else about her
Squirtle - hasn't seen enough of, has b+ changes ( fair is weak from what i saw ), needs more (personal opinion, haven't seen how mobile he truly is now )
ike - **** yeah, but side-B is semi-spammable, needs more work, recovery may be worse
snake - haven't seen much, heard his playstyle hasn't changed much, awesome fakeout on detonation ( DS once said needed alteration on fakeout window for better mindgame, possibly later in animation ), AGT nades
peach - float cancels, dsmash supposed to be semi-melee ( but not 100% melee ), upB lag modifications?, AGT turnips
yoshi - DJC ( hold jump and attack for rising, release jump and attack for DJC ), melee eggs, brawl upB recovery, b+ sideB recovery ( last resort )
ganon - monster status
ICers - no idea. no one's played them from what i've seen nor talked about them
DDD - b+ powers, can JC grab ( everybody can), air mobility is still bawls, no idea what else
lucario - still floaty, b+ from what i know, mod aura?
ness - DJC ( see yoshi ), zap jump ( horizontal, fair + DJ ), sideB still bad?, PKT2 still slows when colliding with ****, still bounces off sides rather than up ( possibly intentionally kept ), no jacket?
sonic - mindgame superman, techchasing your ***, upB still blows ( intentional? ), sideB > jump recovery still blows ( intentional? )
bowser - dunno, b+ changes (GSH#?), upB hog in yet?
wario - already had melee hitboxes in brawl, dunno, b+ changes
TL - meant to be combo of TL and YL, dunno
ROB - hell if i know, who plays him in P:M? has, uh...a freefall now, i guess, AGT for gyro
oli - apparently appealing, pikmin are more important for combos, wallgrab someday? ( if ever possible )
CF - being meleefied, has the better brawl upB/sideB(?), downB being altered still(?), the knee returns
lucas - meant for this game, great physics ( even in b+, shell did impeccable job on him ), no idea on specifics ( once had a changed special, was scrapped apparently )

 

[FrozenHobo]

make the ICers attacks have the same stats as melee and you'll be fine. you can make nana not auto sweetspot the ledge if you want, but i could go either way.

 

[GHNeko]

So this game is pretty fun, guys.

 

[camelot]

ness - no jacket?

I highly doubt the Melee yo-yo glitch is even possible to put back in.

sonic - upB still blows ( intentional? )

No, not intentional.

CF - being meleefied, has the better brawl upB/sideB(?), downB being altered still(?), the knee returns

More like, the everything returns.

lucas - meant for this game, great physics ( even in b+, shell did impeccable job on him ), no idea on specifics ( once had a changed special, was scrapped apparently )

He got a new new special, which still replaces PK Freeze. It actually has a use! Hoorah.

 

[ValTroX]

I highly doubt the Melee yo-yo glitch is even possible to put back in.



No, not intentional.



More like, the everything returns.



He got a new new special, which still replaces PK Freeze. It actually has a use! Hoorah.

WOW that I must see. I love to play Lucas

 

[Dan_X]

^^ and it's really cool too.

On the topic of tripping, I'd like to add my two cents. For one, Diddy is my 2nd.

Tripping should be removed from all other moves in the game save for Diddy's nannerz.

As for nerfing Diddy's nannerz, we have to be reasonable with our design and balance direction here. Tripping induced by his nannerz is what makes diddy so fun to play as, and is what built his meta-game to the point where it is now. If his nannerz are deemed to good, which we are saying they are in a game like Melee, we SHOULD nerf them, but we should do so in the most careful fashion possible: one which preserves the uniqueness of the character.

If Diddy's nannerz didn't trip, would he still be good? Yes, he probably would. But you know what? He wouldn't be Diddy any more. The excite in playing / watching diddy is stage control with his nannerz, as they are responsible for starting a majority of his combos.

I can understand that as his nannerz are now, they sort of auto-combo. This is because the tripee is at such a disadvantage on the ground.

The best way to remedy his nannerz?

1. Speed up the tripping animation in such afashion that tripping the enemy acts more as a tech chase, which means Diddy will have to read the enemies movement much more closely to reap his rewards. Think of this option being like snakes down throw... And his chase game.

Or...

2. Make tripping techable. Which would actually give the tripee more options.

^^I personally like #1 better, as it would likely work best in the Melee setting. That is, it's faster. You would merely have to decide where to roll, and it'd be pretty darn fast. In option 2 if you miss the tech you're wound up in the same slow tripping animation as before-- which people are deeming too slow for the melee setting.

The wrong way to go about nerfing his nannerz would be anything that removes the trip from his nannerz as then we've effectively destroyed what makes a character so fun and interesting. We don't want to destroy character uniqueness, do we?

Having both options 1 and 2 together would likely be too much of a nerf to his nannerz.

As for the looping... If either option 1 or 2 was enacted mindlessly lopping wouldn't be a problem as it'd take more effort to punish the enemy. If you read their movement and time well enough to land another nanner on them shouldn't they be punished??hmm...

In the end, good gameplay should be rewarded. If a good Diddy player reads the enemy over and over he should be rewarded, just as any other character. Though I think that is pretty obvious anyway.

Oh, for the record, someone suggested making it so Diddy can trip on his own nannerz, and this is a VERY BAD idea. For one, it will ruin many of his tactics, as he would be subject to his own bag of tricks. Secondly, it rewards the enemy for... Nothing? The enemy can already make use of his nannerz, let's not forget that people. A smart player can dupe diddy just as badly as he dupes them with his own bananas. Never a good feeling to a diddy player. in this instance, the oppononent is rewarded for taking advantage of diddy's nannerz. More importantly, and I can't believe no one has brought this up... If diddy's nannerz tripped him too then he could cancel his up+b, unleashing his barrel-rocket, whenever he wanted. That's sort of a buff, in a way. In a single jump he could throw a nanner down and cancel his up+B before landing on it. Right now he has to rely on the enemy to make that technique possible. Yet another reason not to make it so diddy is afflicted by his own nannerz.

 

[shanus]

That's precisely what I meant. If you guys managed to hardcode ROB to have a helpless state, then you deserve a medal for that alone. Was just wondering if you looked at every nook and cranny for possible problems.

It took about 30 seconds to give ROB a fallspecial in brawlbox, and it worked immediately

 

[Bandit]

Diddy Stuff

Do you realize just how good Diddy is? He is arguably a top 3 character in vBrawl and remains fairly unchanged in Brawl+.

Now, he has AGT shenanigans, a lower grav that is helping his combo game even more (yes, no balancing yet but just pointing out where we are at), and can WD making him even quicker than before.

Dash attack is its own character.

Side B is incredibly over prioritized.

Is he even gimpable anymore? Not if the Diddy continues to DI in a way to avoid using UpB.

He doesn't need his bananas to be a good character in this game, and you are already going to "he won't be Diddy" argument? I full on blame the Marths and the spineless B+ BR for allowing these types of arguments to continue to be used.

 

[JCaesar]

Retaining the feel of a character is a legitimate argument. Calm the **** down.

 

[Dan_X]

Retaining the feel of a character is a legitimate argument. Calm the **** down.

Thanks JCz.

@Bandit, I'm really surprised at how you responded, not that I know you very well, but I didn't expect you to lash out like that.

By your tone, you'd think that I didn't recognize that Diddy is in fact a very good character, you'd also assume that I have no realization that he gained a new bag of tricks in P:M: AGT. I am very much aware of what makes Diddy good. Perhaps you missed the part where I talked specifically about nerfing his nanner game? If it played out as more of a tech chase game, taking more reading, it'd be better, are you saying this is in fact untrue? Are you saying that tech chasing is meh, and has no place in a game like Melee? If that's the case, I'm sorry, but you can take your attitude elsewhere because no one's interested in it.

His recovery is incredibly predictable, and otherwise not that good (granted it's not the worst either). Aiming at the ledge, if not done so PERFECTLY, causes him to bounce off of it, depending on the stage, you can get away with riding up the under side of it, like Smashville, but that's map specific. He's generally forced to land ONTO the stage with his up+B. The arc of his up+b is practically a 'kick me' sign. The edge guarder needs only to move from the ledge to where Diddy is landing to punish him. It happens ALL THE TIME. It's a pain in the butt, but it's entirely fine in my book, as he doesn't need a strong off-stage game.

I can't believe your 'counter argument,' "Diddy doesn't need his nannerz to be good." By you're logic, couldn't we say the same for Falco's lasers? I mean, he wouldn't instantly suck without them, as he has a good moveset, and combo game, without the use of his lasers at all. But you know what? His laser game defines his gameplay more than any other aspect of him. No lasers = no Falco. It's weak to say that without this or that a character would still be good, that's not the point here. I never denied that. The point is that character 'x' is no longer character 'x', he is now character 'y.' As such, we've failed at preserving what makes a characters gameplay so unique, and identifiable.

 

[Rikana]

I'm still all for taking tripping out entirely for this project. That or only allowing bananas to trip with tripping animation being much faster and tech'able. Andddd Diddy being able to trip on his own bananas is an amazing idea. It makes the user think twice before being used since its a double edge sword.

Melee's item catching/pick up mechanic should be in too. Tighten the timing with nAirs/air dodges to catch, and no other aerials can catch. Dash attacks/wavedashes shouldn't be able to pick up items.

That's what I think at least.

Edit: Also, Diddy gets an indirect buff because of AGT. Use it as a way to recover as well. Can he carry his AGT's momentum into his upB?

 

[Sora-kun]

Banana peels that don't trip?.. Hmm.. Makes sense rite? Well if you hate tripping so much can't you make the bananas hit the opponent at an angle that makes them fall flat on the ground? Not tripping, but it retains the put-the-opponent-on-the-ground use. and it would be techable and also act as a normal fall so it wouldn't look wtfish in a melee setting. It would look the same as if you missed teching a spike onstage or something.

Or w/e don't mind me idrc @__@ just throwing stuff out there.

 

[JCaesar]

Personally I think thrown bananas should have the same hit properties any other thrown item projectile (gyro, turnip) instead of the weird trip animation which makes followups stupidly easy and breaks the flow of the match.

Banana peels lying on the ground, I could care less. Techable tripping or a different techable knockdown sound fine to me.

 

[Dan_X]

Andddd Diddy being able to trip on his own bananas is an amazing idea. It makes the user think twice before being used since its a double edge sword.

You do realize that this is also inadvertently a buff, right? It will allow Diddy to set up barrel canceling whenever he wants... As a Diddy player I often throw the Banana straight down... so I supposed to trip for that? That's a terrible idea. Diddy also 'pushes' his nannerz to position them better... that would no longer work either. Seriously? I can understand hate towards Diddy's nannerz because of good Diddy players using them so well and pissing people off, but to destory his nannerz for the sake of destroying them? Stupid.

Personally I think thrown bananas should have the same hit properties any other thrown item projectile (gyro, turnip) instead of the weird trip animation which makes followups stupidly easy and breaks the flow of the match.

Banana peels lying on the ground, I could care less. Techable tripping or a different techable knockdown sound fine to me.

It wouldn't break the flow of the match if it induced lightning fast tech chases. We may as well also say that Ganondorf's murder choke ruins the pace of the game, because it'd be the same thing (as far as speed goes) with the proposed tweaks. If it didn't trip upon hit then it'd never serve it's prime function: tripping. I understand full well that they don't NEED to trip for them to be good, but that's what makes them so fun to use, and unique. If only grounded bananas tripped it would suck, as who falls for that (no pun intended).

Taking out tripping from a thrown banana is enough of a change on it's own to completely change the feel of Diddy. Again, this is not saying he won't still be good, but I personally would be greatly disappointed that one of my favorite qualities of my main has been done away with.

I'm all for compromising here. I agree that the nannerz should either be techable, or the tripping animation should be faster (to make them more like teching-- to make them similar to how Snake's Dthrow functions). Heck, we could even try both at once, which I think is unnecessary...

Some of you seem to forget that once a banana is placed anyone can use it... This can turn the tides on Diddy VERY quickly. Obviously he has the initial advantage, as he spawns them, however let's not forget the power of playing intelligently and using his nannerz against him.

 

[ph00tbag]

Are you saying that tech chasing is meh, and has no place in a game like Melee? If that's the case, I'm sorry, but you can take your attitude elsewhere because no one's interested in it.

This whole post is brilliant. But I wanted to expound on this point:

Anyone who thinks tech chasing has no place in Melee, or in games that attempt to emulate Melee, doesn't know jack about Melee.

Go watch a combo video. Any combo video, and you will see more tech chases/invalid combos than true combos, and the true combos will rarely be more than three hits. I think it's safe to say that Melee relies on combo escape prediction more than any other fighting game out there.

As to nerfing bananas, I don't think much should be done to the specific tripping animations. I think the actual trips resulting from a naner should be more dangerous. I think get-up options should be buffed, however. Specifically, speed them up and grant more invincibility. Make the get-up options pretty much the same power level as normal get-ups.

 

[Dan_X]

^^ win

10wins

 

[kaizo13]

my personal thoughts on Diddy and nannerz......defintely make them tech-able (with a tech window similar to Ganons choke)

i don't think bananas should trip you when thrown at you, maybe give it a hitbox similar to Diddy's peanut (little to almost no knockback)

but i don't think we need to go as far as to making Diddy trip on his on bananas....idk just my thoughts

 

[Bandit]

Retaining the feel of a character is a legitimate argument. Calm the **** down.

Thanks JCz.

@Bandit, I'm really surprised at how you responded, not that I know you very well, but I didn't expect you to lash out like that.

By your tone, you'd think that I didn't recognize that Diddy is in fact a very good character, you'd also assume that I have no realization that he gained a new bag of tricks in P:M: AGT. I am very much aware of what makes Diddy good. Perhaps you missed the part where I talked specifically about nerfing his nanner game? If it played out as more of a tech chase game, taking more reading, it'd be better, are you saying this is in fact untrue? Are you saying that tech chasing is meh, and has no place in a game like Melee? If that's the case, I'm sorry, but you can take your attitude elsewhere because no one's interested in it.

Just wanted to say you guys really need to relax and take criticism and stop being so sensitive. You structured your argument as "if bananas don't trip it won't be Diddy." There was nothing more to your argument. This is why I made my post.

If you guys want me to flip out, I'll give you a flip out, so I better not see "calm the **** down" when all I did was put out my opinion.

Now, I'll respond.

His recovery is incredibly predictable, and otherwise not that good (granted it's not the worst either). Aiming at the ledge, if not done so PERFECTLY, causes him to bounce off of it,

This doesn't matter since no Diddy player would aim directly for the ledge because they know the risks.

depending on the stage, you can get away with riding up the under side of it, like Smashville, but that's map specific. He's generally forced to land ONTO the stage with his up+B. The arc of his up+b is practically a 'kick me' sign. The edge guarder needs only to move from the ledge to where Diddy is landing to punish him. It happens ALL THE TIME. It's a pain in the butt, but it's entirely fine in my book, as he doesn't need a strong off-stage game.

I play Zelda; welcome to my world. Granted, JC dins has added a lot to her recovery game, but Diddy has Side B as general mix-ups and AGT to help him get back. His Up+B can be punished but his recovery is the only thing keeping him from being completely broken.

I can't believe your 'counter argument,' "Diddy doesn't need his nannerz to be good." By you're logic, couldn't we say the same for Falco's lasers? I mean, he wouldn't instantly suck without them, as he has a good moveset, and combo game, without the use of his lasers at all. But you know what? His laser game defines his gameplay more than any other aspect of him. No lasers = no Falco. It's weak to say that without this or that a character would still be good, that's not the point here. I never denied that. The point is that character 'x' is no longer character 'x', he is now character 'y.' As such, we've failed at preserving what makes a characters gameplay so unique, and identifiable.

My point which you failed to see was having his bananas trip when thrown is not needed for him to be a solid character. He would still use his bananas extensively in his metagame, but they would not be an instant lock to start combos.

Your point about others being able to use bananas is laughable. Diddy can pick up bananas so easily, because he was designed to, and counter the use of them. It is almost always smarter to control them and keep them away from Diddy then to use them against him.

In the end, you use Diddy and you don't want to see him nerfed. That is the end argument that we are dealing with here.

 

[Sterowent]

all this talk about diddy, and only orca is focusing on the real issue: tripping in general.

the only reason his abilities are so great is because of the mechanic, which is likely going to be altered to melee style, which will be a nerf, which will be a huge nerf to diddy who centralizes around tripping.

everyone keeps referring to tripping as it IS, and not as it WILL BE. if the designers change the game based on this conversation, either tripping will be all but taken out of the game, or diddy will be nerfed excessively, in a bad way. or both.


can we get a response on the whole tripping mechanic, and what the devs think of the ideas presented?

 

[Dan_X]

"In the end, you use Diddy and you don't want to see him nerfed. That is the end argument that we are dealing with here."

if that is the case then why am I suggesting a series of nerfs?

Also, AGT is not a reliable recovery option because you need a banana in hand to enact it... Often times you won't have a nanner in hand when recovering. So...

I don't see how making them techable and/or speeding up the tripping animation doesn't do enough to nerf him.

Debating can be done without adding an exorbatant level of attitude btw. This is why we found your initial post (and even your latest post) ridiculous.

Thanks for your time...

all this talk about diddy, and only orca is focusing on the real issue: tripping in general.

the only reason his abilities are so great is because of the mechanic, which is likely going to be altered to melee style, which will be a nerf, which will be a huge nerf to diddy who centralizes around tripping.

everyone keeps referring to tripping as it IS, and not as it WILL BE. if the designers change the game based on this conversation, either tripping will be all but taken out of the game, or diddy will be nerfed excessively, in a bad way. or both.


can we get a response on the whole tripping mechanic, and what the devs think of the ideas presented?

It is people like you who make me happy that I'm a member of this forum.

edit. sorry for 2x post.

 

[Deleted member]

Not even in public beta and people are wanting nerfs to the characters only a handful of people can even use at this point... Makes so much sense.

If Diddy is really as good as people are implying, the match up data will show him having reasonable match ups on high tier Melee chars like Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Falcon.
By that point, he will have been successfully converted into Melee Diddy and there is NO reason to mess around with his core metagame and do minor touch ups instead.

No reason to kill off a solidly played character or mechanic during alpha testing...

 

[ETWIST51294]

Diddy will **** Falcon. Falcon is so bad...

You guys should make his tech suck again.

 

[Bandit]

Debating can be done without adding an exorbatant level of attitude btw. This is why we found your initial post (and even your latest post) ridiculous.

Thanks for your time...

And your only responses to me have been with this added attitude you keep referring to. I quoted this part to prove you are throwing it at me.

Diddy's recovery is fine. It's not even horrible or bad. You should know how to DI to not be in a bad situation.

Honestly, I'm done with the conversation anyway. I've provided enough of a rebuttal by actually citing different things about Diddy's gameplay while you have just said "I like him how he is." You've proven to me you can't have a big boy conversation.

/Diddy Talk

 

[Dan_X]

And your only responses to me have been with this added attitude you keep referring to. I quoted this part to prove you are throwing it at me.

Diddy's recovery is fine. It's not even horrible or bad. You should know how to DI to not be in a bad situation.

Honestly, I'm done with the conversation anyway. I've provided enough of a rebuttal by actually citing different things about Diddy's gameplay while you have just said "I like him how he is." You've proven to me you can't have a big boy conversation.

/Diddy Talk

*sigh.*

It makes utterly no sense to me at all that you would go on saying that I "like him how he is" as such, am too pig-headed to touch him. Again, this is immediately countered by my unyielding efforts to nerf his nanners in the most appropriate fashion possible, one that will promote a tech chase, and that doesn't yield an auto combo.

If you're too blind to see my nerfing points then no one has the ability to get through to you, which is fine.

You keep on making up points, that I am NOT focusing on. "Diddy's recovery is fine. It's not even horrible or bad. You should know how to DI to not be in a bad situation." No need to attack my skill, which you know NOTHING of btw. I only brought up the recovery game in response to other people, you probably brought it up, I don't even care to check at this point. The point is, I merely stated that AGT is not going to be the consistent recovery option that you seem to think it will be because... Diddy will oftentimes NOT have a nanner in-hand off stage. That's my ONLY point with regards to AGT and recovering. In fact, it's more feasible for Link to make use of AGT for recovery because he can... pull out bombs in the air and have them in-hand instantly.

I'm addressing the CORE concern here; tripping mechanics. I'm calling a spade a spade. You are getting carried away. We have full control over every aspect (well most every) of this game. We CAN Melee-ize tripping to be a much more thoughtful process. As I and others have pointed out, making it more like a tech-case game is the way to go. Why? Because it solves the problems.

1. It makes the follow-up to a nanner more of a read-the-enemy guessing game, and less of a auto-combo with no real reading necessary.

2. It speeds up tripping to the point where the tripee can respond to it in a reasonable fashion, as they aren't nearly as helpless as they once were.

Heck, if we made it so that tripping was both faster, and techable, which may not be a bad idea at all, we just have to test it, it could be the best possible solution. Not only would you be rewarded for skillfully techning it, thus receiving MORE options to escape the follow-up, but if you missed the tech you wouldn't be entirely screwed over either, as it will still be a quick read worthy process.

Oh, and I said "Thanks for your time" because I'm tired of dealing with your ignorance. Which I suppose is a showcase of attitude, however, at least I'm not being ignorant, and that is what you're being btw...

 

[Deleted member]

Just make bananas unable to trip a person already in trip state and nerf Diddy's dash attack being safe on shield.

Leave the existing tripping model intact due to other characters using trip effectively like DK, Zelda, Pika, Tink, Luigi. They should be able to retrip after an initial trip, but only Diddy's bananas don't cause another trip.

 

[Shadic]

Oh, and I said "Thanks for your time" because I'm tired of dealing with your ignorance. Which I suppose is a showcase of attitude, however, at least I'm not being ignorant, and that is what you're being btw...

Give one example of his ignorance. Diddy is a good character. Bananas can basically lock down some bigger/slower characters. There is nothing that worked even remotely like the banana did in Melee.

As I said elsewhere:

I still think kind of an ultimate combination of ideas would be best:

Bananas that do normal damage when thrown, but when ran over cause a trip that is now techable, or Kupo's idea of sending the player into tumble, causing a fall down/tech opportunity. (That's the gist, right Kupo?)

Diddy slipping on his own bananas is debatable.

 

[Deleted member]

Give one example of his ignorance. Diddy is a good character. Bananas can basically lock down some bigger/slower characters. There is nothing that worked even remotely like the banana did in Melee.

As I said elsewhere:

Falco's laser shuts down every character in Melee. Diddy's bananas don't even come close to the control lasers give Falco.

 

[Dan_X]

Give one example of his ignorance.

Sure.

In the end, you use Diddy and you don't want to see him nerfed. That is the end argument that we are dealing with here.

If him repeatedly saying stuff like this isn't ignorant, than I don't know what else is. Especially when I'm listing a series of ways to nerf him in such fashion that will retain what I and many others feel define Diddy.


EDIT: In addition to the changes I've been stressing, making it so that bananas can only trip a standing opponent, as Shanus suggested, may not be too bad at all. It would just mean that Diddy would have to time better, and the enemy would likely have a chance to get their shield up. Another thing worth testing.

 

[ValTroX]

I think that the techable fall down is the best option for naners hit(if they decide to remove tripping). With the jab reset code in works, there's no need for a second trip(if the player is on the floor).
EDIT:

EDIT: In addition to the changes I've been stressing, making it so that bananas can only trip a standing opponent, as Shanus suggested, may not be too bad at all. It would just mean that Diddy would have to time better, and the enemy would likely have a chance to get their shield up. Another thing worth testing.

that is actually the best suggestion IMHO, cause jab reset will be VERY VERY good as I previously said

 

[Plum]

I think the absolute LAST resort should be to remove tripping from thrown bananas.

Diddy is a really good character with potentially broken tactics in my opinion. The way I see it, the only thing remotely broken about Diddy is the fact that a trip results in a guaranteed "something" for Diddy in their current form. That something can be practically (maybe literally if frame data supports it) any move from his moveset depending on how he spaced his banana throw, where he glidetossed, and etc.

This isn't Brawl, where guaranteed followups are okay (see things like grab releases into guaranteed kills, various guaranteed CG's until X percent or until virtually any percent, and crap like footstool infinites on ROB). Given the playstyle Melee demands, bananas are obviously something that don't belong, in their current form. So what can we do to take the guaranteed out of Diddy?

Any one of the number of options that have been thrown out here. Teching bananas, speed up the tripping animation, a combination of both, or whatever. Really think about how you answer this question:
If Diddy no longer has any sort of guaranteed followup from a thrown banana, then how is the (IMO) only broken aspect of him still broken? If Diddy is forced to use actual skill at reading the opponent to have any sort of followup from a banana, then how is the tripping still really a problem? Don't take the brokenness of bananas in their current form into account when you think about how Diddy could be. I agree that bananas are currently too good, and warrant a nerf, on the basis that it gives Diddy far too much guaranteed options. Think about Diddy if he no longer had anything guaranteed from a banana, and how he would play.

Tripping on a ground banana seems to rarely happen against a good opponent, because it just sits there doing nothing and the player has to almost make an effort to go over it; in PM bananas on the ground are so much worse too because of wavedashing. Could Diddy still be good without his trip combos? I guess... but couldn't Falco be good without his SHL? There's a point where nerfing a character goes too far not because the character is trash, but because to took out a key element of what makes that character who they are. I don't see how that isn't a legit argument, especially when you consider that the character already has a very deep metagame based around banana tactics that would be thrown away. Preserve trip combos but force Diddy to read the opponent to get anything out of it, whether you just speed up trips or make them techable.

/rant

 

[Dan_X]

I think the absolute LAST resort should be to remove tripping from thrown bananas.

Diddy is a really good character with potentially broken tactics in my opinion. The way I see it, the only thing remotely broken about Diddy is the fact that a trip results in a guaranteed "something" for Diddy in their current form. That something can be practically (maybe literally if frame data supports it) any move from his moveset depending on how he spaced his banana throw, where he glidetossed, and etc.

This isn't Brawl, where guaranteed followups are okay (see things like grab releases into guaranteed kills, various guaranteed CG's until X percent or until virtually any percent, and crap like footstool infinites on ROB). Given the playstyle Melee demands, bananas are obviously something that don't belong, in their current form. So what can we do to take the guaranteed out of Diddy?

Any one of the number of options that have been thrown out here. Teching bananas, speed up the tripping animation, a combination of both, or whatever. Really think about how you answer this question:
If Diddy no longer has any sort of guaranteed followup from a thrown banana, then how is the (IMO) only broken aspect of him still broken? If Diddy is forced to use actual skill at reading the opponent to have any sort of followup from a banana, then how is the tripping still really a problem? Don't take the brokenness of bananas in their current form into account when you think about how Diddy could be. I agree that bananas are currently too good, and warrant a nerf, on the basis that it gives Diddy far too much guaranteed options. Think about Diddy if he no longer had anything guaranteed from a banana, and how he would play.

Tripping on a ground banana seems to rarely happen against a good opponent, because it just sits there doing nothing and the player has to almost make an effort to go over it; in PM bananas on the ground are so much worse too because of wavedashing. Could Diddy still be good without his trip combos? I guess... but couldn't Falco be good without his SHL? There's a point where nerfing a character goes too far not because the character is trash, but because to took out a key element of what makes that character who they are. I don't see how that isn't a legit argument, especially when you consider that the character already has a very deep metagame based around banana tactics that would be thrown away. Preserve trip combos but force Diddy to read the opponent to get anything out of it, whether you just speed up trips or make them techable.

/rant

Thank you! Very eloquently put! You've expressed much of what I've been trying to, and appear to have the same thoughts on the issue.

I agree 1,000,000%.

If I could +rep you I would.

 

[Dark Sonic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQA7vbttZkQ


I'm just gonna go ahead and leave this here.

 

[xDD-Master]

An idea for diddy tripping:

Make trip having 100% invincibility... Then it would be all about tech chasing and would keep the unique thing about diddy and his nanerz.

 

[stingers]

edit: misunderstood sry

 

[Sterowent]

as has been stated earlier, tripping as is breaks the flow of play too much. i'm going to put money on it changing. so buffing the mechanic beforehand is a fruitless effort.

 

[ArenaX]

Is there gunna be a stream tonight? o.o

 

[ph00tbag]

I think the absolute LAST resort should be to remove tripping from thrown bananas.

Diddy is a really good character with potentially broken tactics in my opinion. The way I see it, the only thing remotely broken about Diddy is the fact that a trip results in a guaranteed "something" for Diddy in their current form. That something can be practically (maybe literally if frame data supports it) any move from his moveset depending on how he spaced his banana throw, where he glidetossed, and etc.

This isn't Brawl, where guaranteed followups are okay (see things like grab releases into guaranteed kills, various guaranteed CG's until X percent or until virtually any percent, and crap like footstool infinites on ROB). Given the playstyle Melee demands, bananas are obviously something that don't belong, in their current form. So what can we do to take the guaranteed out of Diddy?

Any one of the number of options that have been thrown out here. Teching bananas, speed up the tripping animation, a combination of both, or whatever. Really think about how you answer this question:
If Diddy no longer has any sort of guaranteed followup from a thrown banana, then how is the (IMO) only broken aspect of him still broken? If Diddy is forced to use actual skill at reading the opponent to have any sort of followup from a banana, then how is the tripping still really a problem? Don't take the brokenness of bananas in their current form into account when you think about how Diddy could be. I agree that bananas are currently too good, and warrant a nerf, on the basis that it gives Diddy far too much guaranteed options. Think about Diddy if he no longer had anything guaranteed from a banana, and how he would play.

Tripping on a ground banana seems to rarely happen against a good opponent, because it just sits there doing nothing and the player has to almost make an effort to go over it; in PM bananas on the ground are so much worse too because of wavedashing. Could Diddy still be good without his trip combos? I guess... but couldn't Falco be good without his SHL? There's a point where nerfing a character goes too far not because the character is trash, but because to took out a key element of what makes that character who they are. I don't see how that isn't a legit argument, especially when you consider that the character already has a very deep metagame based around banana tactics that would be thrown away. Preserve trip combos but force Diddy to read the opponent to get anything out of it, whether you just speed up trips or make them techable.

/rant

So what's next? Take away ZSS's dsmash? I think your premise is flawed. One guaranteed follow-up is not broken. It just makes whatever move guarantees a follow-up a good move to avoid. It might mean that you have to play a lot more safe around a Diddy that is holding a banana in order to avoid the banana, but that alone doesn't make him god tier. I mean, Melee Falco can pretty much pick and chose his follow-ups to his shine--DI is rarely a major factor--and it's one of the hardest moves to avoid in Melee. Jigglypuff could get a guaranteed rest off a jab reset.

Now, a series of guaranteed follow-ups, that's problematic. Inescapable loops and infinites are a problem. Fortunately, for the case of Bananas, B+ has already found a way to circumvent the naner loop: thrown bananas cannot trip a tripped target. Presto! No naner loop. Add to this a buff for the rolls from trip, and I think you've got a well-nerfed move.