Project M Social Thread

[Bakuryu]

Just food for though what would people think of making diddy pull bananas like turnips and bombs. What I mean is instead of throwing it he holds it for throwing? If we did this though he wouldn't be able to do it in the air, unless me made and it option?

A little off topic, but though it might be something worth thinking about.

 

[Sneak8288]

Yea i can't see diddys nanners being any worse than falcos melee lasers. Falco can laser to shine which pretty much garuntees a follow up or laser to shine jc grab on shields. If you can tech a banana it would be largely nerfed and if items are picked up melee style it would take alot of skill to be crazy wit bananas which i think should be rewarded. What makes his banana game so good in vbrawl imo is how he can pick it up in so many ways but taking the trip out completely seems unnecessary.

 

[camelot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQA7vbttZkQ


I'm just gonna go ahead and leave this here.

You can do it in Brawl.

 

[Dan_X]

So what's next? Take away ZSS's dsmash? I think your premise is flawed. One guaranteed follow-up is not broken. It just makes whatever move guarantees a follow-up a good move to avoid. It might mean that you have to play a lot more safe around a Diddy that is holding a banana in order to avoid the banana, but that alone doesn't make him god tier. I mean, Melee Falco can pretty much pick and chose his follow-ups to his shine--DI is rarely a major factor--and it's one of the hardest moves to avoid in Melee. Jigglypuff could get a guaranteed rest off a jab reset.

Now, a series of guaranteed follow-ups, that's problematic. Inescapable loops and infinites are a problem. Fortunately, for the case of Bananas, B+ has already found a way to circumvent the naner loop: thrown bananas cannot trip a tripped target. Presto! No naner loop. Add to this a buff for the rolls from trip, and I think you've got a well-nerfed move.

ph00tbag, I hate to break it to you, but Plum is actually debating on behalf of preserving Diddy's uniqueness: keeping the tripping and what not. He's not against it. We know what has to be done to improve the tripping mechanic, and he was just pointing that out. He was saying that removing the tripping from Diddy's nannerz should be the LAST thing we consider, as there are MUCH better options that will preserve what we love about Diddy, tripping shenanigans.

As Shanus already pointed out, he could make it so that a banana can't trip an already tripped opponent, making it only affect those who are standing.

 

[Deleted member]

Bananas should have guaranteed follow ups, but they shouldn't be KO moves. More along the lines of dash attack, another nanner, side-b, and grabs.

If you get hit by that banana it's your fault and there should be guaranteed combo options against you. Falco's lasers give him the best control in the game w/o any guaranteed follow ups at all. Diddy's bananas give him good ground control and certain guaranteed strings, but they cannot be spammed, can be used against himself, and cannot trip lock people.

Diddy fits in well in style and ability with the top tier Melee chars. Hate to see him lose his unique abilities in alpha testing.

 

[iLink]

^ Isn't that what it already does in Brawl+?


EDIT: Directed @ Orca

 

[Dan_X]

^^ perhaps iLink, but this isn't Brawl+. I'm not sure when that change went into Brawl+, but P:M bases itself off of one of the older Brawl+ builds, and doesn't include that change. This is merely to discuss how P:M wants to deal with nanners. With regards to nannerz not retripping an already tripped opponent, we may be siding with Brawl+.

 

[iLink]

Yah in Brawl+, if they are already in the tripped state, then another banana won't trip them again which makes Diddy have to read which direction the person will roll if he wants to get them with the other banana.

 

[humble]

I suggest being able to tech the flub off the trip, but if diddy reads your tech he can punish.

Also, I agree with bananas not hitting anyone but standing opponents, making it more difficult to chain.

WD with naners will be ridiculous anyway. o_O Triangle jump to catch off hit ftw.

 

[goodoldganon]

You could give him a new down-b. Diddy's Brawl image might be defined by nanners but his melee one can be defined by something else. You could give him the Chimpy Charge from DK64. Or he could charge up a rockout attack with his guitar. Of course those ideas are all stupid. I haven't played P:M so I have no idea how silly nanners are.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Why are we arguing this? Most of yall don't even HAVE THE DAM GAME. STFU.

Diddy's bananas should stay in its Brawl state until the beta release. Then let that decide.

 

[Sterowent]

diddy balance aside, tripping SHOULD be talked about now. in fact, any new mechanics not available in melee should be.

the buffer system
AGT
footstooling (or, perhaps, a conditional event when characters collide in a specific way, outside of attacks?)
tripping
even backwards ledgegrabs

all gotta be discussed. this is ALPHA. even if people aren't playing the game, it's important that people ask how the engine is going to work. at the least, conversations can help stir up ways to implement these mechanics (or minimize them). even if decisions aren't made on them yet

 

[ETWIST51294]

We already DISCUSSED THAT ****. READ THE THREADDDDDDDD.

Seriously, we discussed everything you listed. Read the thread.

 

[Sterowent]

i've read the thread. i'm just saying. we're discussing tripping now, and we should.

 

[iLink]

You can't blame someone for not reading all 340 pages of this topic <_<

But yes, all of those things you mentioned have been brought up and discussed.

 

[Sterowent]

well, if you guys have talked about meleefying the tripping mechanic before, could you tell me where? this seems awfully important, and i don't recall a lick of it, so if you could summarize what the final point of the conversation was, that'd help me out a lot.

it seems like how people have been talking the last few pages that this isn't an old topic, but i'll assume you've got this wrapped up. so, please. educate me.

 

[ETWIST51294]

No, this is actually the only thing we haven't discussed. but we've discussed everything else.

edit: i mean this particular type of tripping.

 

[Sterowent]

alright, i'm right on time then. i know i can't help but get wrapped up in this game design talk. really glad to be around at the 'ground floor', i guess.


i really like this mechanic, but i'm also worried about how it'll be spread around. i hope it is, but on the wrong move it'll simply hinder a character's low-percent combos and replace em with chases. which is debatable as to being better or not. as in, tripping on dtilts that otherwise would set up for low percent stuff instead sets up for less 'guaranteed' followups. if tripping is put on character moves, it ought to be better than what would've been had without the trip. for this reason, maybe tripping can bypass CC? or somethin?

bananas tripping on only standing opponents sounds great, though.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

What about making trips techable until they hit the ground, speeding up the animation slightly, and adjusting lag on tripping moves as necessary to facilitate tech chasing?

Aside from removing the mechanic entirely, that seems to be the best fit for the Melee feel.

 

[MuBa]

Has anyone played as P:M Diddy to see how broken he is with bananas?

Spoiler

Link should have a 99% chance of pulling out a Hydrogen Bomb.

 

[Dan_X]

^^I play Diddy in P:M, and he isn't really broken at all. Much of what people are saying in this thread is merely speculation.

His AGT, is good, sure, but it hasn't instantly pushed him into the realm of over powered. The thing is, there's no denyig that aside from his recovery being somewhat poor, he is extremely good, and has gotten EVEN BETTER in P:M. The reason that we're talking about Diddy isn't so much that he is broken (though some people seem to assume that), it's because the tripping mechanic as it currently exists isn't rich enough for Melee's gameplay. If Diddy is close to a tripped opponent, it is quite close to a guaranteed follow-up, and it's not exactly difficult to land the nanner in the first place.

Basically, the point of this discussion is to mull over the ways that the tripping mechanic can be updated in such way that it promotes more of a tech-chase like experience. We all know that tech chasing is a skillfull scenario as one has to carefully consider his enemy's movement, and that's the aim here.

With all that said, that's why I find it frustrating that people are going wayyy overboard with the nerf ideas to a rather ridiculous degree. For example, removing the tripping from his nannerz flat out is not only a major nerf, but it would utterly kill an extremely unique element comprising one of my favorite characters in the game.

I'm versed enough with Diddy in P:M to recognize that we need not remove tripping from his nannerz but address the tripping mechanics itself. Some people apparently don't recognize that.

 

[superyoshi888]

Yah in Brawl+, if they are already in the tripped state, then another banana won't trip them again which makes Diddy have to read which direction the person will roll if he wants to get them with the other banana.

What about making trips techable until they hit the ground, speeding up the animation slightly, and adjusting lag on tripping moves as necessary to facilitate tech chasing?

Aside from removing the mechanic entirely, that seems to be the best fit for the Melee feel.

These are the ideas I like the most. Promotes reading and tech chasing while not removing a unique element of Diddy's game.

 

[Deleted member]

Why are we arguing this? Most of yall don't even HAVE THE DAM GAME. STFU.

Diddy's bananas should stay in its Brawl state until the beta release. Then let that decide.

Too Right.

 

[Sneak8288]

any chance of P:M at super dso2?

 

[Revven]

JCz said that when his Wii (or someone's Wii) isn't in use, he would put P:M on it for friendlies.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Has anyone played as P:M Diddy to see how broken he is with bananas?

Spoiler

Link should have a 99% chance of pulling out a Hydrogen Bomb.

Stuff like this is really irking me. No offense, but I think high level players should decide whether somethings broken or not. And I'm not just talking to you, I'm talking to everyone that doesn't place in Melee tournies that says it's broken/not broken. It seriously CAN'T be worse than Falco's lazors. Just sayin'.

 

[5ive]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/im5ive

project m stream in a bit

 

[superyoshi888]

Took you long enough to put up P:M.

 

[Blayd]

Yeah, I'm watching.

 

[crazycrackers]

been watching this stream.

 

[Evilagram]

finally caught a stream.

Why can't you guys just post these as videos instead of streaming things? It's an absolute pain. I'm pretty sure the stream gives you an option to save it as a video for later playback too. Livestream does that.

 

[DarkDragoon]

finally caught a stream.

Why can't you guys just post these as videos instead of streaming things? It's an absolute pain. I'm pretty sure the stream gives you an option to save it as a video for later playback too. Livestream does that.

The idea is that we don't want an imperfect product seen by anyone who doesn't already understand. This way we can avoid a bad rep as much as possible.
-DD

 

[Blayd]

It looks so cool. I hope there will be an open beta soon :D

 

[UltiMario]

I wouldn't be expecting it soon. We've still got quite a bit of work to do.

 

[DotheDiddyMonkeyDance]

any more streams for tonight or are they done? I had to go shopping so I missed out on majority of it. I know some of the characters they showed where Yoshi ,Samus, C.Falcon, Metaknight, Fox, Falco just wondering to what else was played that I might of missed.

 

[Dan_X]

Has anyone played as P:M Diddy to see how broken he is with bananas?

Stuff like this is really irking me. No offense, but I think high level players should decide whether somethings broken or not. And I'm not just talking to you, I'm talking to everyone that doesn't place in Melee tournies that says it's broken/not broken. It seriously CAN'T be worse than Falco's lazors. Just sayin'.

Though I may be mistaken, i'll say it anyway. The way I read it, I thought Muba was asking if anyone here has actually played Diddy in P:M, or if they are all just theory crafting. I'm fairly certain Muba has NEVER played P:M, so he's definitely not trying to claim Diddy is broken from his own personal experience.

I agree that it's not a whole lot worse than Falco's lasers, I would NOT say it's over powered... at all. A part of the problem is this: people don't like Diddy-- because he's a pain in the butt to fight. Those people are theory crafting how broken Diddy COULD be in P:M, many of which haven't even played him in it. Diddy's followups aren't quite as guaranteed as people are making them out to be, really. They are no more guaranteed in P:M than they are in vBrawl and Brawl+. If Diddy is close enough to the enemy there ARE pretty good chances you'll be able to exploit the tripped enemy, but he still has to read their roll.

Even with that said, it wouldn't hurt to refine the tripping mechanics in a fashion better suit for a game like Melee-- however, at the same time we can't reward the tripee by making it TOO easy to escape the follow-up. All that should really be done is make a landed nanner act more like a tech chasing game, this is, it's faster. I must sound like a broken record by now.

I'm still not sure what to think of making it so bananas only trip a standing opponent. I really don't know. In P:M, like Brawl+, you can't enact the nanner lock, so they are already safe from that, landing another nanner requires reading their roll, and it's not AS SLOW as people are acting like.

Again, I'm not opposed to tweaking him, I just want people to recognize that he doesn't need to be nerfed THATTT hard. I mean, how bad is Diddy REALLY going to be in a world with Melee Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, etc. I'm looking at you wave-shining Fox.

Diddy and tripping aside... what else is there to talk about?

 

[FrozenHobo]

IC's CGs. or the possible lack thereof.

 

[DotheDiddyMonkeyDance]

hmmm I may sound like a broken record also but what is happening with diddy kongs return is he gonna have autosnap out of his upB or is it gonna be retarted like how it is in B+ to where you hit the ledge and you die? (the reason above is primarly why I never play diddy in B+ death by return is stupid).

Um I know its been covered before and I asked before but would you guys take in consideration to allowing Link and Samus to do grapples out of their UPB's maybe not so much samus because she can always bomb return but Link on the other hand could use all the help he could get. And considering since Wall grabbing with Links claw shot is out of the question (like how it was in Melee) I think him being able to do AirUPB > Clawshot ledge would be the closest to that type of return there would be. I know you guys saying your gonna fix his bombs but wouldn't the hitstun hurt him even more?

I have faith that you guys will make the right decision.

 

[ETWIST51294]

hmmm I may sound like a broken record also but what is happening with diddy kongs return is he gonna have autosnap out of his upB or is it gonna be retarted like how it is in B+ to where you hit the ledge and you die? (the reason above is primarly why I never play diddy in B+ death by return is stupid)[

Were there autosnaps in Melee? That should answer your question. No autosnaps, no exceptions.

Oh, and no grapples out of up bs. That wouldn't be very great.

 

[UltiMario]

You won't be snapping to the ledge, but it's not exactly difficult to recover with Diddy either. Just DI up and you'll be fine.