Project M -- Post if you'd like to offer assistance meleefying chars

[Shell]

@shanus: it's not just a matter of precision -- take a look at Peach. Her actual "initial/well-timed" WD is very short, reminiscent of it's Melee length. Okay for spacing, not movement. However, if you do a short triangle dodge with her, all of a sudden she has a huge wavedash.

 

[shanus]

@shanus: it's not just a matter of precision -- take a look at Peach. Her actual "initial/well-timed" WD is very short, reminiscent of it's Melee length. Okay for spacing, not movement. However, if you do a short triangle dodge with her, all of a sudden she has a huge wavedash.

Well the solution I proposed should fix that, I hope.

 

[Shell]

Yeah, it sounds good. I'll test stuff whenever I can escape the Library.

 

[shanus]

Yeah, it sounds good. I'll test stuff whenever I can escape the Library.

I havent tested the latest batch, but falco should have his melee shine back. Luigi's wavedash shouldnt screenshake anymore.

Link/Sonic recoveries should be hopefully near correct.


Can someone look into D3's pac and see if he has any momentum modifiers on his special fall or special fall landlag? Luigi's momentum modifier on his special fall landlag was causing his crash and was fixed.

 

[Veril]

I'm so maining the ICs in this (love Ganon, Lucas and Pikachu as well). They're basically the sexiest thing ever.

You know a code I still wish we had... set buffer for training mode. I really like my 50 buffer and want to practice the INSANE IC desych tricks I've been working on.

 

[shanus]

How do the physics feel? I only did really rough testing on most characters, the rest was just an algorithm.

 

[Veril]

unpolished overall, some characters actually feel really good though. The ones I listed especially.

A lot of vertical knockback moves will have to be reworked to remove insane juggles.

 

[Shell]

And / or weights adjusted.

 

[Veril]

Definitely AND as opposed to OR

 

[Shell]

Veril, if you feel like doing some testing, feel free to find weights that roughly compensate the gravity to give similar or partially corrected kill percents with, say, Fox's F-smash on FD etc. Since you can update .pacs without restarting it shouldn't take too long, and if you can find a formula to compensate across the cast that'd be pretty badass.

Edit: Did some quick testing.

-Got a lotta freezes with Kirby. Yoshi froze on L-cancel once, too.
-Snake's WD is scary on him. Might tone that down a little considering his ground game.
-Zard needs his Double Jumps increased
-Jiggz can't go off ledges. May be others, I forgot to check everyone
-Ganon's SH is too high right now

I might look into BrawlBoxing the Landlag 2 animations into the LandlagSpecials of the following characters, who look awkward:
Mario, Luigi, Boozer, DK, Diddy, Squirtle... possibly Yoshi and Ivy. Let me know if I'm missing any. Zard's looks fine, but needs the camera shake removed.

Overall the movement feels tighter than I thought we'd be able to get it. Once shanus gets the HAD polished up as he mentioned and we tweak weights and a few vertical KB outliers, I'll start playing a lot of matches with friends and getting feedback, schedule willing. This is shaping up to be a lot of fun. Who knows where it'll go.

Shanus, any attempts at iJC Grabs (initial JC) or PS Reflect+?

 

[shanus]

I can lookinto making both of those soon. I would want to finalize HAD first, though. The PS reflect and JC Grabs should be incredibly easy to make though, so that shouldn't require much work.


I have severely limited game time, hence why all of these need a lot of fine tuning and testing!

Literally all that you have played/tested has been tested by me for about 10 minutes total, so thats why its so unpolished.

The more feedback, the better!

Over thanksgiving while I'm home I'll try and bring my wii home to kill some time and make this work better.



Edit: It does seem like the L-Cancelling code is causing more crashes as of late. I'll ask Dantarion if he can take a look at it.

 

[Dantarion]

Are you using the one Yeroc made from mine?
With my ledgetech code?

 

[Shell]

From the .txt:

L Canceling v1.1 plus Edge Canceling, Dantarion & Yeroc
....
....


Ledgetech fix, Dantarion
....
...

http://shanemulliganphotography.blogsite.org:6111/~shane/NearGold/Melee2.0/11-21-09/Melee2Beta1.txt

 

[shanus]

Yeroc seemed to find the issue:
Certain characters pac files are overwriting the area in memory of the L-cancelling code.

these include:

Kirby, Yoshi, Wario, and the others observed to be problem makers.

Dant, know any safe locations to dump it into?

 

[leafgreen386]

You can pretty much scrap all the gravities you have right now. Don't bother going any further, since viet and I seem to have figured out the secret to doing character physics: more ugrav than dgrav. Having "natural" character physics feels a lot better than having more dgrav than ugrav, but having more ugrav than dgrav... is incredible. It more or less emulates melee jumps.

 

[Shell]

solid-snake-esque "!"

That sounds strange, but I'll give it a go if you've got something to test later, leaf.

Does anyone have any wild ideas on how to make the game recognize landing a few frames later? All of the wavelanding and L-canceling timings are just slightly off due to the way the game recognizes you as having landed sooner than melee. This is also part of the reason (in addition to more upright posture) that Ganon's Fair and Bair suck at hitting grounded doodz.

 

[shanus]

You can pretty much scrap all the gravities you have right now. Don't bother going any further, since viet and I seem to have figured out the secret to doing character physics: more ugrav than dgrav. Having "natural" character physics feels a lot better than having more dgrav than ugrav, but having more ugrav than dgrav... is incredible. It more or less emulates melee jumps.

I wish you told me this a while ago. WHats the formula so I can put it into excel?

 

[Veril]

M-theory... hot

I've got a bunch of testing in progress with Cape's set, especially the d-throws. I already saw one suggestion for testing I could do for melee 2.0, I'm definitely going to get the throw data for M2.0 since there are bound to be lots of issues with WD, new physics, etc creating nonsensical CGs and grab combos.

 

[shanus]

I think the main problem with the current physics are the terminal velocities being way too high. I think lowering them back down might do wonders.

 

[leafgreen386]

I wish you told me this a while ago. WHats the formula so I can put it into excel?

I wish I had figured it out a while ago.

I don't really have a formula, though. The problem is we're trying to make chars not only peak faster but also reach a higher peak. That means that neither time nor displacement will remain constant. I'm also starting to have doubts about if the dgrav is even working the way we think it is. I remember back when we were trying to preserve things like ganon's thunderstorming we were able to edit dgrav but not ugrav or fgrav to keep it without messing with his sh. I'm worried all that's really happening is that the char ends up rising faster and peaking higher, with the falling speed also being affected by the ugrav instead of dgrav. It's fairly easy to get placebo'd on this stuff, so I'm going to do a little test on where marth stops when I set dgrav to 0.

 

[Shell]

Does PSA handle d-grav, or is that a creation of ours? It'd be best if we could stay in PSA due to its lack of constraints on intervals and so forth.

Leaf, you've sort of lost me. I don't even know what I know now with regards to D-grav, so I hope your tests produce definitive data to clear this up. Good luck.

 

[shanus]

I think DGrav is terminal velocity. A variable only effected by not FFing your character uring the fall of your jump....

 

[Almas]

The variable which I used to read whatever DGrav is from is called the moment you start falling, as well as the moment after you are hit. Increasing it also makes you more resistant to knockback, I recall.

 

[shanus]

The variable which I used to read whatever DGrav is from is called the moment you start falling, as well as the moment after you are hit. Increasing it also makes you more resistant to knockback, I recall.

Almas can you take this code, and write it in a memory safe location?

The current location is overwritten by some pacs and causes crashes

L Canceling v1.1 plus Edge Canceling, Dantarion & Yeroc
07060F08 000000E8
08000100 81060F40
000A0200 81060F48
04070100 81060F58
11001000 81060F60
000F0000 00000000
02010200 80FAF3EC
00090100 81060FE0
00000000 00000001
00000006 00000032
00000000 00000003
00000001 0001D4C0
00000000 00000010
00000000 00000000
00000001 FFFA81C0
00000001 00075300
00000001 FFFBE150
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 0000AFC8
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000003 00000001
00000002 80FC1C18
00000002 81060F08
06FC1C58 00000008
00090100 81060FE8

 

[Almas]

Can do it tonight, in a few hours (4-5).

 

[leafgreen386]

I think DGrav is terminal velocity. A variable only effected by not FFing your character uring the fall of your jump....

It isn't =)

Fun easy experiment: Set a character's dgrav to 0 without touching their fgrav. Hilarity ensues.

Dgrav does indeed take over immediately as you reach the peak of your jump, causing characters to float when they reach the apex. Actions such as dropping through a platform actually gives you a large amount of initial velocity, which slowly depreciates. You're able to drop through the bottom platforms on battlefield down to the floor level, but if you try to do that from the top platform, you'll end up floating in the air after a certain point as the dropping velocity goes to zero (I know it makes no sense but it's how it is). What's more interesting is that you can actually fast fall this drop and make it down to the ground from the top platfrom. If you're just floating, however, you cannot ff at all. Moves that set your gravity to something (ie. marth's upB and downB) can also be ff'd.

So thankfully, it seems I at least haven't been getting placebo'd. This will work, but it's gonna require a lot of testing to get the values right.

 

[shanus]

Edit: Shouldnt have compensated FF speeds, fixed that.

Leaf, try out this excel, or cater it to your needs.

When you open it, click on the options tab which pops up to enable macros, as it spits out a Jump/Grav code for you to past into your text file.

Can someone try this out?

Jump/Grav Values [29 Lines]		
065A9200 000000E0		
004AC2D0 013AF260		
02AC72B0 035BE2C0		
04CBC2C0 05AA8260		
063AA2E0 07AAA260		
087AC260 093AA2E0		
0A7AC2D0 0B1AC2A0		
0C6BC2D0 0D5AC260		
0E6AC2D0 0F1CE2A0		
11AA72E0 12AAC260		
132AC2E0 14BC7290		
15AAC260 166BE280		
179AC2B0 185AC280		
196AC2D0 1AAAE2C0		
1B6AC2D0 1DBCC2A0		
1E5CE280 1FAAC2D0		
20ABA240 218A72D0		
229B8280 239AC2D0		
257AF260 29AAE2C0		
2C99C230 2E6BC2D0		
2F7AE2E0 3F666666		
3F6CCCCD 3F733333		
3F79999A 3F800000		
3F833333 3F866666		
3F89999A 3F8CCCCD		
3F900000 3F933333		
3F966666 3F99999A		
3FA00000 3FA66666		
3FB33333 00000000

Download:
http://www.mediafire.com/?mwhc3nylhtq


If this does tend to work out well, then I plan to do the following with cape's latest build (please feel free to volunteer and help!):

Easy:
Set all ALRs to the values in the OP.
Up all characters frictions nonreliant on DACUS by .01 or .02
Up all characters air mobility by .02 [on hold]

Medium:
Re-add in HAD manually for Ness, Lucas, and Yoshi
Fix the HAD bugs yet again by adding the simplified subaction 33 change to allow them to have appropriate wavedash landlag.
Fix the HAD crash for Luigi by removing the momentum command in subaction 33 AND remove the screen shake from Other
Remove screen rumble from Charizard subaction 33 in other.
Re-Add in the Add momentum command for Link, Sonic, and TL to fix their recovery damage from higher gravity.
Re-add in the file for ROB's special fall.
Add falco melee shine

Hard:
Figure out D3

 

[Almas]

God ****it, use the new grav code.

L Canceling v1.1 plus Edge Canceling, Dantarion & Yeroc
06586000 000000E8
08000100 80586038
000A0200 80586040
04070100 80586050
11001000 80586058
000F0000 00000000
02010200 80FAF3EC
00090100 805860D8
00000000 00000001
00000006 00000032
00000000 00000003
00000001 0001D4C0
00000000 00000010
00000000 00000000
00000001 FFFA81C0
00000001 00075300
00000001 FFFBE150
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 0000AFC8
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000003 00000001
00000002 80FC1C18
00000002 80586000
06FC1C58 00000008
00090100 805860E0

Should probably do the trick.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'll try out the excel when I get home tonight. I also think I have good news. And no, I did not just save a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to geico. Since melee jumps reach their apex faster than they land, I think it's possible to actually solve for both gravities and the initial velocity of the jumps by just knowing the apex frame!

 

[shanus]

100% untested:

http://www.mediafire.com/?row15gzlxtm

Used Almas' updated L-cancelling location.
Used new gravity method in code form instead of pacs.
Ported over the latest nightly build fresh so hopefully everything works.

D3 should be the only one who crashes.

 

[VietGeek]

Marth: Instead of the above, try 11AA72D0.

TL: 29AAE2C0 feels alright but shorthop should probably be reduced to 9, it's too high now. Also the Fgrav mod has absolutely ***** TL's recovery. <_<

 

[shanus]

Marth: Instead of the above, try 11AA72D0.

TL: 29AAE2C0 feels alright but shorthop should probably be reduced to 9, it's too high now. Also the Fgrav mod has absolutely ***** TL's recovery. <_<

I'll use an Add momentum code which won't ruin the horiz and add vert.

 

[VietGeek]

I'd be interested in knowing the code myself to be honest. >_>

And yes, I think Cape's set needs this too, it's one of the few things that would make the mechanics mesh at least somewhat better.

The proposed Marth physic change I suggested works great in both P: M and B+. It's a little closer to Melee Marth (whether or not it's "perfect" idk), and emphasizes fastfalling for air to ground combos...just like Melee?!

Also doesn't Wolf's B+ physics already have higher Ugrav? It should be left as is (imo) since it gave birth to this experiment to begin with. The test one made him feel way too floaty (natural since it essentially gave him less gravity than he had in vB combined with higher jumps).

 

[shanus]

Ill type more out later but the add grav code is:
0E010200 Add Horiz, Add Vert

 

[shanus]

i figured out why jumps felt so high, i messed up a locked cell!

I'll be uploading a fix soon, along with a falco surprise!

 

[shanus]

Jump/Grav Values [29 Lines]		
065A9200 000000E0		
005AC2E0 0116F270		
028A72C0 035AE2D0		
04BAC2D0 05668270		
065CA2F0 0766A270		
0846C270 095CA2F0		
0A7AC2D0 0B18C2B0		
0C7BC2E0 0D26C270		
0E6AC2D0 0F0AE2B0		
11BB72E0 1266C270		
134CC2E0 148B72A0		
1566C270 1638E280		
1789C2C0 1837C290		
197AC2E0 1A99E2C0		
1B6AC2D0 1D9AC2A0		
1E39E290 1FAAC2D0		
2045A240 218A72E0		
22698290 239AC2D0		
2546F270 29BBE2E0		
2C44C240 2E7BC2E0		
2F8BE2E0 3F600000		
3F666666 3F733333		
3F79999A 3F800000		
3F833333 3F866666		
3F89999A 3F8CCCCD		
3F900000 3F933333		
3F966666 3F99999A		
3FA00000 3FA66666		
3FB33333 00000000

untested, leaf trying it now.


If this is confirmed to work better, ill post the excel

 

[shanus]

I forgot to fix toon link's recovery, but thats literally cake:
http://www.mediafire.com/?uzt2dzmng3m


Try out falco :D

Let me know how these new physics are.

 

[shanus]

I have created a forum on BrawlPlus.net for Project M discussion for a closed user group of beta testers. Please let me know if you want to be added as that will definitely be a better hub of knowledge for others who are not in the WBR.

 

[leafgreen386]

I hate to interrupt such an epic post combo for this, but... yes.

EVEN THE POSTS IN PROJECT M COMBO BETTER.

 

[Shell]

No wii for until I return Saturday, but I might be able to hax some animations if someone can hook me up to a link with all of the fitcharactermotionetc.pacs. Things I want to do:

Ganon preggorz run / dash / Usmash / fix Fair & Bair

Mario Dair

Any others?

Shanus, could you test the GW nair from the beginning of the thread and possibly incorporate that?

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.