Project M -- Post if you'd like to offer assistance meleefying chars

[shanus]

__________________________________________________________​

Welcome to Project M.​

__________________________________________________________​

What is Project M?
Project M is an in development spin off of Brawl+ designed to add rich, technical gameplay to a balanced cast of characters while additionally enhancing the speed of play. Project M employs new codes which seemlessly add in new features to the entire cast to add technical variety to all characters.

TRAILER (Coming Soon)​

New Features:

Hybrid Air Dodging - This is a new air dodge programmed in PSA and injected into fighter.pac through code. This air dodge works in the following mechanism:

Neutral Joystick = normal brawl air dodge
Non-neutral joystick = you move directionally to the initial direction held by the joystick finalized by a momentum halt in the air. Afterwards, you enter special fall. If you land during this air dodge, you accrue 10 frames of landlag. You can use this technique to wavedash, waveland, or even slide off of ledges. This technique reads your direct native joystick inputs.

Manual Aerial Lag Canceling - L-Cancelling was re-programmed in PSA and also generated into a fighter.pac injection. This code allows you halve the landing lag of your aerials by pressing the L or R buttons immediately before landing on the ground during an aerial. If performed successfully, a small flash will appear on the backside of your character.

Ledgeteching - During hitlag (the frames directly after you receieve damage, but have not yet received knockback), you now have the ability to tech. This brings back the ability to SDI into a wall and tech while recovering.

Jump-Canceled grabs - By pressing the grab button during the beginning of your jump start animation you can now enter a standing grab at the speed of a full dash.

New Physics - The physics to the game have been almost exclusively ported to .pac files allowing for even finer control to character physics. All characters gravities, friction, jump heights, and air mobility have been altered allowing for more control of your character and a significantly faster game pace.

Additional changes include:
-Hitstun at a value between brawl and brawl+
-No air dodging while in tumble
-You can fast fall while in tumble
-Removal of sideB autosnapping the edges
-All other Brawl+ changes

New Character Changes:
Falco's melee shine
Bowser's flame cancelling
Falcon's moonwalking
Ness/Yoshi double jump cancelling
DK's strong hit upB
Samus IASA on bombs
And more! (note: some of these are already present in Brawl+)


Questions:

When is this coming out?
It is currently still in closed beta testing and will be released only when the project is deemed ready. Don't try and rush us as we want to put out an amazing product.

Is this going to replace Brawl+?
No.

Is this okay to call it melee 2.0?
Yes.

Is Brawl+ melee 2.0?
No.

Can I hassle you to get a test version of this?
No, and if you do, I especially won't give you it lol


JC Grabs [we have a working pac of JC+, but we need to decide how we want to design these and implement into fighter.pac]

		B+	Melee2.0 (L-cancel)	Non-L-cancelled
captain	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	9	9	18
	Bair	5	7	14
	Uair	5	7	14
	Dair	9	9	18
				
dedede	Nair	8	8	16
	Fair	15	15	30
	Bair	11	11	22
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	15	15	30
				
diddy	Nair	7	7	14
	Fair	15	15	30
	Bair	6	7	14
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	15	15	30
				
donkey	Nair	8	8	16
	Fair	15	15	30
	Bair	8	8	16
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	16	16	32
				
falco	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	17	17	34
	Bair	8	8	16
	Uair	8	8	16
	Dair	6	7	14
				
fox	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	9	9	18
	Bair	8	8	16
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	6	7	14
				
G&W	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	11	11	22
	Bair	6	7	14
	Uair	5	7	14
	Dair	15	15	30
				
ganon	Nair	11	11	22
	Fair	13	13	26
	Bair	11	11	22
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	18	18	36
				
ike	Nair	6	7	14
	Fair	11	11	22
	Bair	11	11	22
	Uair	9	9	18
	Dair	14	14	28
				
kirby	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	8	8	16
	Bair	5	7	14
	Uair	5	7	14
	Dair	8	8	16
				
koopa	Nair	12	12	24
	Fair	12	12	24
	Bair	18	18	36
	Uair	14	14	28
	Dair	20	20	40
				
link	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	5	7	14
	Bair	5	7	14
	Uair	10	10	20
	Dair	25	25	50
				
lucario	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	9	9	18
	Bair	8	8	16
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	5	7	14
				
lucas	Nair	8	8	16
	Fair	6	7	14
	Bair	6	7	14
	Uair	5	7	14
	Dair	12	12	24
				
luigi	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	11	11	22
	Bair	6	7	14
	Uair	6	7	14
	Dair	6	7	14
				
mario	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	13	13	26
	Bair	5	7	14
	Uair	5	7	14
	Dair	10	10	20
				
marth	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	5	7	14
	Bair	11	11	22
	Uair	5	7	14
	Dair	16	16	32
				
metaknight	Nair	8	8	16
	Fair	8	8	16
	Bair	6	7	14
	Uair	6	7	14
	Dair	8	8	16
				
ness	Nair	9	9	18
	Fair	6	7	14
	Bair	6	7	14
	Uair	6	7	14
	Dair	14	14	28
				
peach	Nair	6	7	14
	Fair	11	11	22
	Bair	5	7	14
	Uair	5	7	14
	Dair	5	7	14
				
pikachu	Nair	13	13	26
	Fair	8	8	16
	Bair	15	15	30
	Uair	12	12	24
	Dair	20	20	40
				
pikmin	Nair	8	8	16
	Fair	8	8	16
	Bair	8	8	16
	Uair	15	15	30
	Dair	15	15	30
				
pit	Nair	12	12	24
	Fair	6	7	14
	Bair	6	7	14
	Uair	12	12	24
	Dair	12	12	24
				
pokefushigisou	Nair	6	7	14
	Fair	14	14	28
	Bair	5	7	14
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	14	14	28
				
pokelizardon	Nair	11	11	22
	Fair	16	16	32
	Bair	11	11	22
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	18	18	36
				
pokezenigame	Nair	6	7	14
	Fair	6	7	14
	Bair	5	7	14
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	10	10	20
				
popo	Nair	8	8	16
	Fair	10	10	20
	Bair	8	8	16
	Uair	15	15	30
	Dair	21	21	42
				
purin	Nair	8	8	16
	Fair	8	8	16
	Bair	8	8	16
	Uair	8	8	16
	Dair	15	15	30
				
robot	Nair	6	7	14
	Fair	6	7	14
	Bair	6	7	14
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	11	11	22
				
samus	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	5	7	14
	Bair	6	7	14
	Uair	5	7	14
	Dair	5	7	14
				
sheik	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	5	7	14
	Bair	5	7	14
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	13	13	26
				
snake	Nair	15	15	30
	Fair	15	15	30
	Bair	15	15	30
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	15	15	30
				
sonic	Nair	6	7	14
	Fair	15	15	30
	Bair	5	7	14
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	15	15	30
				
szerosuit	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	8	8	16
	Bair	5	7	14
	Uair	5	7	14
	Dair	20	20	40
				
toonlink	Nair	8	8	16
	Fair	9	9	18
	Bair	5	7	14
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	20	20	40
				
wario	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	8	8	16
	Bair	15	15	30
	Uair	5	7	14
	Dair	10	10	20
				
wolf	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	15	15	30
	Bair	5	7	14
	Uair	5	7	14
	Dair	10	10	20
				
yoshi	Nair	5	7	14
	Fair	8	8	16
	Bair	5	7	14
	Uair	7	7	14
	Dair	10	10	20
				
zelda	Nair	6	7	14
	Fair	11	11	22
	Bair	11	11	22
	Uair	11	11	22
	Dair	11	11	22

 

[CT Chia]

go find my samus pac i made for brawl+, the jumping physics are almost just like melee. at least short hop and falling speed is appropriate, full hop might need a slight tweak

 

[Team Giza]

Hope we can get melee shields.

 

[Shell]

I will try to work on converting all characters' D-grav to F-grav this weekend as it is something that will be immediately useful for Brawl+ as well.

We should probably get the things that we'll definitely use in Brawl+ worked out first, i.e. gravity, landlag, side-b autosweetspot, etc.

Things to add to OP (as I think of them)

-JC Grabs
-GW Nair (http://www.mediafire.com/?znzy4z2mdqg -- might need polish)
-Remove RAR (kidding, this is a jab at 64's 9000's removal of side-b attacks)
-Incorporate Almas's clone engine w/ working Roy and Doc (to come)
-A crucifix for ourselves
-side-B no-auto-sweetspot
-DK Up-B initiall sweetspot hit and reworked physics
-Pikachu Tail-Spike
-I would actually rather not see CCing (at least in its Melee form) come back.

Longshot wishlist:
-Moonwalking for the masses
-Oldschool Tether Recoveries

Has anyone checked to see if the body size multiplier attribute in the .pacs changes hitbox sizes as well? If it does, then would reducing character size by 3-5% be something that would be interesting?

 

[shanus]

I guess the main question I have here is how far do we want to go with this in terms of character changes?

Do we want to replicate melee more so, or keep characters mostly identically to B+?

For example:

Ganons uair reverse tipman
Samus Super WD
G&W Nair
DK UpB Strong hit (i think this is awesome and should go in anyway)
Falcon downB rejump
Pika uair spike (his uair is fairly absurd right now, I'm more than a little scared of this)

Good list though shell.

Updated OP with the obvious ones.


Also, what are the thoughts on current shieldstun?
Thoughts on powershield reflect?
etc

 

[Shell]

I was just thinking of the superlatively awesome things that I missed about certain characters, and I'm sure other people would want to see. For example, Tail-Spike was half the reason I ever played Pika in Melee, and DK's strong hit was the main one Magus played DK. No need to replicate Melee, this is 2.0, not 1.1

Of course those characters don't need buffs, and Falco didn't need buffs either, and both him and Fox will be stupidly good (and fun) again once WDing gets implemented. We're not going to have to do too massive of a balance overhaul, but it's pretty obvious that it'll need tweaking.

As for Reverse Vulture Semi-Spike, its merit in this game is debatable, which is why I never really pushed for improving it in Brawl+. There are several problems with it right now:

1) It's overshadowed by his Stomp, which is actually quite useful now as a virtual "Spike"
2) Teleportation-esque ledge snap means that he won't actually be able to use it against people trying to sweetspot, which was big before.
3) The BKB needs a slight increase, and possibly a lower angle.
4) He's stockier / less lanky, so the move isn't quite as safe. Not a huge deal, but mentionable.
5) A lot of the top contenders in Brawl+ had amazing recoveries and simply weren't that susceptible to it as a semi-spike -- an outright stomp or Uair strong hit seemed more effective.

However, given the inevitable rise in dominance of Fox / Falco, if you can decrease ledge grabbing range at some point in the future it might be worthwhile to re-examine fixing it up.

PS Reflect would be worth testing. I'd like to try the current shieldstun before increasing it.

Edit: Does anyone know how to make my SWF font small again? Everything's gotten huge in the last couple days..

 

[shanus]

Good points Shell.

Regarding forum font size: I used Smash Blue and it seems to be mostly the same size, maybe a bit bigger.

Also, Yeroc completed the land lag ports of 14 minimum for use with the set, they will be uploaded later.

 

[Team Giza]

I was just thinking of the superlatively awesome things that I missed about certain characters, and I'm sure other people would want to see. For example, Tail-Spike was half the reason I ever played Pika in Melee, and DK's strong hit was the main one Magus played DK. No need to replicate Melee, this is 2.0, not 1.1

Personally I think we should try to make it as much like Melee as possible, at least among the top or high tiers, if we are going to do this project as all.

 

[Veril]

Personally I think we should try to make it as much like Melee as possible, at least among the top or high tiers, if we are going to do this project as all.

Yeah, why bother trying to balance something when we can ensure that its broken and we see the same characters that won for years in melee continue to dominate...

We should be less anal about balancing, but making the top tiers like they were in melee is a terrible idea. 2.0 should attempt to have larger base of viable characters than melee.

 

[Team Giza]

Yeah, why bother trying to balance something when we can ensure that its broken and we see the same characters that won for years in melee continue to dominate...

We should be less anal about balancing, but making the top tiers like they were in melee is a terrible idea. 2.0 should attempt to have larger base of viable characters than melee.

I didn't mean lets try not to balance the game. I was trying to say that among the top tiers they should try to keep their movesets the same as they were in PAL melee. Perhaps a few nerfs to them but I think we should try to make them feel as melee like as possible. This includes keeping unique positive features from non-top tiers in melee. I wasn't saying keep all the characters like they were in melee. I'd be more clear about it but, you know, peanut arms.

 

[Shell]

I'm going to try to do grav changes this weekend. I was planning on using 5.0 pacs as a base, is this okay?

Do people want me to replicate Melee gravities for M2.0 as well? Otherwise I'll just convert to F-grav in the pacs and be done with it for both M2.0 and B+.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm going to try to do grav changes this weekend. I was planning on using 5.0 pacs as a base, is this okay?

Do people want me to replicate Melee gravities for M2.0 as well? Otherwise I'll just convert to F-grav in the pacs and be done with it for both M2.0 and B+.

Replicating melee grav could either be really cool or really terrible. Melee grav on spacies is ridiculously strong, so I can only imagine that if you replicated it for them you'd end up having utilts that lead to techahses instead of combos >_>

Also, I'm laughing at how most of the stuff on this list that isn't character specific is stuff we actually want for brawl+.

 

[CT Chia]

i would start by first replicating everything in melee perfectly. some things like glitches (such as samus swd) dont need to be put in. remember though that the extender isnt a glitch, though it wouldnt be the end of the world if it wasnt in

after all the melee characters r done, start to "meleefy" the brawl only characters. then release that as v1.0, then take time to balance it SLIGHTLY

 

[Shell]

i would start by first replicating everything in melee perfectly.

Easier said than done.

The fact of the matter is that we have to choose our priorities. A lot of the engine stuff can trickle down to Brawl+, so I don't feel bad devoting a fair bit of time to stuff like that.

However, when we take the time to perfectly replicate every last feature in Melee including the absolutely extraneous features, as you're suggesting, Chibo, it sends a very bad message to the Brawl+ community about where our time priorities are, in my opinion.

Furthermore, there are things that I genuinely like about characters in Brawl+ that I miss when I play Melee, and as Veril pointed out, I see no reason to deliberately start with a mediocre level of balance, watching the exact same top tier do the same things. To replicate perfectly just leads to the (in this case valid) argument, "Why not play Melee?" For most people, additional characters / stages probably won't be quite enough.

More updates for OP:

-Add Young Link movement / physics for TLink as alternate via clone engine
-Ledge grab range half way between current Brawl+ and old Melee range
-Mario F-smash (Speed up, Weak Flub, move fireball out 1ish unit)

Longshot wishlist:
-Moonwalking for the masses
-Oldschool Tether Recoveries

 

[Deleted member]

I"m in favor of replicating melee as best as we can too, this is a side project after all and the current B+ set is gonna be here for a while anyway, and before we can discuss anything real serious about that thing, it's gonna be december.

that give us one and a half month in which we can do whatever we want.

 

[shanus]

Shell, Yeroc has a complete set of pacs with landlag ported. I would use that as a base.

 

[JCaesar]

Hmm I might end up liking Melee 2.0 more than Brawl+

 

[Shell]

Yeah, I know what you mean, JC.

@shanus, but what about for Brawl+? I didn't know if we were going to just start with SSage's landing lags as a base and work off of those as a base or not. I wouldn't be opposed to that, as it'd be easier.

 

[shanus]

Yeah, I know what you mean, JC.

@shanus, but what about for Brawl+? I didn't know if we were going to just start with SSage's landing lags as a base and work off of those as a base or not. I wouldn't be opposed to that, as it'd be easier.

We can probably take the pacs Yeroc made and make a quick batch program which divides all the landing lags by 2.

I don't know the exact method SymphonicSage used, and no offense to him, but I don't quite trust him either.


All that would do is offset any landing lag <7 and set it equal to 7. Most low lag moves would see a lag increase of only 1-2 frames. The lowest lag move was 5 frames (albeit there were a lot of them)

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'd like to see Melee Peach back, and double jump canceling for Lucas.

 

[shanus]

Attention:

I have made a working HAD code on the Melee2.0 section of the BR website.

Neutral Joystick input = Brawl air dodge
Non-Neutral = Melee air dodge with special fall

Now, the mechanics are basically totally installed, but i need help with one thing. I haven't figured out a way to let him slide off the edge of the stage.

So here is how you can manipulate things to optimize values:

Subactions: 33, 46, and Subroutine: 24CE8

In subaction 33, adjust value set air/ground value 2D randomly until you find one which lets you slide off the edge.

In the subroutine adjust parameters 0 and 1 of each 0E080400 to adjust the power of the momentum boost.

In 46, adjust the set loop length and synch timer in it to adjust the duration of the momentum boost.

 

[Shell]

I will try to do the gravities tomorrow. This weekend has been busy.

And props on your work, Shanus.

 

[Team Giza]

I have made a working HAD code on the Melee2.0 section of the BR website.

Neutral Joystick input = Brawl air dodge
Non-Neutral = Melee air dodge with special fall

Can you make it so only smash joystick inputs will make it do a melee airdodge?

 

[Shell]

So, initial HAD feedback:

The actual Melee Dodge needs to occur at ~1.5x to 2.0x the current speed. I know this would mess with the BAD, so perhaps using PSA's built in frame speed engine only when MADing could work?

Also, when looking at Fox, the dodge is composed of two little parts - an actual swooping dodge portion, and then a falling aerial somersault into the free-fall. Right now Fox doesn't start falling until he completes the somersault, but he needs to start falling as soon as he completes the actual swooping dodge (falling during the somersault). Would this be a matter of shortening the duration and then increasing the momentum?

Lastly, the length of the AD in the air is good, but it needs to transfer a bit more to the ground. Melee Fox WD was ~2.5-3 character lengths, and this is ~1.25-1.5, I think.

Overall, very awesome work getting this far. If I have time tomorrow I will try to try values to allow WDing off edges and/or getting gravities started.

Also, smash input would be kinda cumbersome for wavedashing / wavelanding, in my opinion. For example, when wavelanding, I find it helpful to FF first and then roll the stick into the near-horizontal position, which just feels smoother and more natural than two separte taps. Waveshining with tap MAD would be a terrible chore.

 

[shanus]

The nice part is they are easily segmented SHell so adjust all of those complaints are trivial. For example, speeding up the movement portion is just a matter of increasing the momentum, and reducing the frame count. The same applies for the stall point in the air, just need to remove a set momentum from zero in a loop at the end and move it before the loop, and bam you fall during the tumble.

I just was trying to make the frame count actually equivalent or near equivalent to melee's, but I didn't have a working video in front of me, so i just kinda improv'd with SDM's frame data.

 

[Shell]

Ah. Well, making the somersault go into fall, but having the initial part move the same distance (thus being a shorter number of frames) might be all the speed-up it needs. It just seemed a lot slower, though, especially when looking at the rising dodges.

 

[shanus]

Yeah, i agree. If you hop online later, ill explain it and give you an updated version.

 

[shanus]

So we now have a fully functioning version of HAD.

This includes:
Neutral joystick = Brawl Air Dodge
Non-neutral joystick = Melee Air dodge with 8 directional inputs, 10 frame landing lag, ability to slide off ledges, special fall at the end

Please note that current limitations include only 8-way directional input rather than 16:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=a99ad2b8c7a06f936e7203eb873681291fb42f937acdd688b8eada0a1ae8665a

Over the weekend, I'll work on expanding this to more pac files.


We also have updated L-cancelling code (which Yeroc made and will post) that includes the ability to ledge cancel & adds a shiny graphic to it as well.

Camelot has also begun working on a moonwalking code. He has a nice version which works so far for quarter circle inputs. I will work on it more when i get time.

 

[Yeroc]

Well, I couldn't have picked a more challenging starting point for learning to write an entire PSA injection. But it is what it is. I'm posting it here for people to look at if they feel so inclined. First, here's your L-cancel:

L Canceling v1.1 plus Edge Canceling, Dantarion & Yeroc
07060F08 000000E8
08000100 81060F40
000A0200 81060F48
04070100 81060F58
11001000 81060F60
000F0000 00000000
02010200 80FAF3EC
00090100 81060FE0
00000000 00000001
00000006 00000032
00000000 00000003
00000001 0001D4C0
00000000 00000010
00000000 00000000
00000001 FFFA81C0
00000001 00075300
00000001 FFFBE150
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 0000AFC8
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000001 00000000
00000003 00000001
00000002 80FC1C18
00000002 81060F08
06FC1C58 00000008
00090100 81060FE8

And your other monster code. I think there needs to be a more efficient way of doing this. >_>

AD Code *Does Not Work*
07060708 00000668
00070100 80FB18E4
120B0100 81060890
02010300 81060898
000A0400 810608B0
000B0400 810608D0
04000100 810608F0
000E0000 00000000
04000100 810608F8
02010200 81060900
120B0100 81060910
120B0100 81060918
120B0100 81060920
120B0100 81060928
120A0100 81060930
0E080400 81060938
000A0400 81060958
120A0100 81060978
000F0000 00000000
000A0400 81060980
120A0100 810609A0
000F0000 00000000
000A0400 810609A8
120A0100 810609C8
000F0000 00000000
000A0400 810609D0
120A0100 810609F0
000F0000 00000000
00040100 810609F8
0E020100 81060A00
00070100 81060A08
00010100 81060A10
00050000 00000000
00020100 81060A18
06050100 81060A20
00040100 81060A28
0E020100 81060A30
00070100 81060B38
00010100 81060A40
00050000 00000000
00040100 81060A48
0E080400 81060A50
00010100 81060A70
00050000 00000000
06050100 81060A78
0E060100 81060A80
00010100 81060A88
120A0100 81060A90
000F0000 00000000
00090100 81060A98
00000005 20000054
00000000 00000010
00000006 00000008
00000005 20000054
00000006 00000007
00000005 000003F5
00000000 00000000
00000005 00000C5C
00000006 00000007
00000005 000003FB
00000000 00000000
00000005 00000C5D
00000000 00000046
00000000 00000046
00000000 00000019
00000006 00000003
00000005 20000050
00000005 20000051
00000005 20000052
00000005 20000053
00000005 20000055
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000001
00000000 00000001
00000006 00000007
00000005 000003F3
00000000 00000005
00000000 00000000
00000005 20000050
00000006 00000007
00000005 000003F3
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000005 20000051
00000006 00000007
00000005 000003FA
00000000 00000005
00000000 00000000
00000005 20000052
00000006 00000007
00000005 000003FA
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000005 20000053
00000000 00000003
00000000 00000001
00000002 81060B38
00000001 0000EA60
00000001 0002BF20
00000000 00000002
00000000 00000005
00000000 00000001
00000002 81060B38
00000001 0000EA60
00000000 00000010
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000001
00000000 00000001
00000001 0000EA60
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000002
00000001 00124F80
00000005 20000054
00000002 80FB18FC
00000002 81060708
000A0200 81060AE0
08000100 81060AF0
04070100 81060AF8
000F0000 00000000
120B0100 81060B00
02010200 80FAF454
00090100 81060B08
00000006 00000008
00000005 20000055
00000000 00000001
00000001 000249F0
00000005 20000055
00000002 80FC1CA8
00000002 81060AE0
0E020100 81060BE8
000A0200 81060BF0
0E080400 81060C00
000F0000 00000000
000A0200 81060C20
0E080400 81060C30
000F0000 00000000
000A0200 81060C50
0E080400 81060C60
000A0200 81060C80
0E080400 81060C90
000F0000 00000000
000A0200 81060CB0
0E080400 81060CC0
000F0000 00000000
000F0000 00000000
000A0200 81060CE0
0E080400 81060CF0
000A0200 81060D10
0E080400 81060D20
000F0000 00000000
000A0200 81060D40
0E080400 81060D50
000F0000 00000000
000F0000 00000000
00080000 00000000
00000000 00000001
00000006 00000008
00000005 20000050
00000001 0001D4C0
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000001
00000000 00000001
00000006 00000008
00000005 20000051
00000001 FFFE2B40
00000000 00000000
00000000 00000001
00000000 00000001
00000006 00000008
00000005 20000052
00000000 00000000
00000001 0001D4C0
00000000 00000001
00000000 00000001
00000006 00000008
00000005 20000050
00000001 00014A78
00000001 00014A78
00000000 00000001
00000000 00000001
00000006 00000008
00000005 20000051
00000001 FFFEB588
00000001 00014A78
00000000 00000001
00000000 00000001
00000006 00000008
00000005 20000053
00000000 00000000
00000001 FFFE2B40
00000000 00000001
00000000 00000001
00000006 00000008
00000005 20000050
00000001 00014A78
00000001 FFFEB588
00000000 00000001
00000000 00000001
00000006 00000008
00000005 20000051
00000001 FFFEB588
00000001 FFFEB588
00000000 00000001
00000000 00000001
06FB18F4 00000010
00090100 81060AA0
00020000 00000000
06FC1CA0 00000008
00090100 81060B10

 

[Shell]

Ryoko and I were talking about Zairs, and I wouldn't mind seeing Zair lag brought up to 14 frames and be L-cancelable (to 7 frames) like other aerials (Yeroc?). Ryoko would also like to see Zairs be clankable, which I'm okay with.

Might get a chance to attack gravities tonight.

 

[shanus]

HAD now working with Fox, Falco, and Ness.


It is epic.


Ledgeteching code v1.1 can't load and causes a crash. Lower hitstun has made comboing a lot harder but its really fun.

 

[Shell]

So, I started looking into gravities and found a few surprises, both pleasant and otherwise. First, the good news. I was taking a look at this list here for Melee fall speeds and comparing it to our current tweaks.

Right now, we have Falco tweaked to be pretty near frame perfection of his old gravity -- his psa shows a gravity of .112, and we multiplied that by 1.3 in our engine to produce .1456...... 145.6 was surprisingly close to that chart's value of 152.

Then I looked at Bowser. Although I haven't checked the frame data, he seemed pretty comparable to his Melee gravity after the 5.0 update. His psa showed .1027, which we multiplied by 1.1 to get .1129. Again, 113 was surprisingly close to the chart's value of 116.

I looked at Ganondorf, who was again about .95 x the chart value.

I then went through the first 7 character IDs and adjusted their gravities in psa to match .96 x the chart value.

Then, I roughly compensated the jumps with this formula:

(PSA Jump Value)(B+ Engine Multiplier)(Ratio of new grav / old B+ grav)

So if a character had a PSA FH initial velocity of 1.00, and we used a 1.025 multiplier, and I increased the gravity 20% from the old B+ value, the new PSA value would be 1.23.

This isn't guaranteed to be foolproof, but it seemed like the most sensible way I could think of to do this.

I adjusted the Hop V initial Velocity, Jump V Initial Velocity, and Air Jump Multiplier (DJ?) using the above formula.

-------

The results are somewhat disappointing. The SH heights varied greatly, and the FH & DJ heights were universally way to low, like barely gaining height too low.

Furthermore, I couldn't really test the gravities because I didn't compensate the terminal velocities, which brings me to my next point...
-------

There could definitely be major holes in my formulas there, although they seem pretty logical, but I'm guessing there are more values that we have to adjust than we realize. It seems like just initial vertical velocity may not be enough, but I could be wrong.

I'm also not really sure how the air jump value works. Most characters have a value of .9 or 1.0 that I've seen so far, while all of the SH / FH values I've seen vary widely down to the second or third decimal place.

I'm going to be busy most of tomorrow, so what I need people to figure out, if possible, is what values I really need to be working with and how to modify them.

If Almas sees this, do you think you might be able to identify which all variables in PSA a given multiplier in your engine changes? For example, the FH height value controlled at least both V initial velocity and a possibly unknown DJ value while the gravity code also controlled terminal velocity in addition to whatever else.

Also, did custom move gravities get added to the latest gravity engine? We either need a way to do that in PSA or one of Almas's codes, as near-Melee levels of gravity can have significant effects on Up-B moves -- Samus's goes ~1/3 of its old distance.

If people can figure these things out then I can get back to getting these values hammered out when I have time. This may or may not be helpful.

Thanks.

 

[Magus420]

I have no idea what that page means by 'Average' fall speed, but it looks to be mostly based on acceleration with Fox being that much higher than Falco. Fox only comes down sooner on extremely small knockbacks since they get up to full speed very quickly. This list I made before should give a more detailed idea on the top speed part (acceleration still is part of it but does very little).


Mewtwo's u-throw on DL64 kills at:

196 - Falco

188 - Fox
187 - Captain Falcon

165 - Roy > Donkey Kong

154 - Sheik > Link = Young Link
153 - Marth > Ganondorf
151 - Bowser

144 - Pikachu > Pichu
143 - Yoshi

139 - Ness
137 - Mr Game & Watch
136 - Dr Mario = Mario

133 - Ice Climbers
131 - Peach = Kirby = Mewtwo
130 - Luigi
129 - Samus
127 - Zelda

121 - Jigglypuff

 

[Shell]

Magus >>> Smash Wiki

Just like any other Wiki, I feel embarrassed whenever I reference it...

 

[leafgreen386]

Then, I roughly compensated the jumps with this formula:

(PSA Jump Value)(B+ Engine Multiplier)(Ratio of new grav / old B+ grav)

Well, you got wrong compensations for one very simple reason: you're missing a root. The correct jump compensation formula is the following:

V0b = V0a*(sqrt(gb/ga))

V0b = new initial jump
V0a = old initial jump
gb = new gravity
ga = old gravity

In this case, old initial jump would be the old brawl+ jump value, and old gravity would be the old brawl+ gravity value.

The weird thing is you said that you were getting jumps that were too low, when your formula should have been returning values that were too high. I think the game uses terminal velocity somehow in this for something besides just for setting what your maximum falling velocity is. Most likely thing I can think of is that it acts as an absolute value that restricts your movement both going up and going down, and that by not modifying the terminal velocities, you ended up with jumps with an initial velocity that was greater than the value set for the character's maximum velocity, causing it to be shorter than it should be. Either that, or the game uses multiple sets of values to determine fall speed at any given point... in which case the actual correction formula will probably be much more complicated.

Although, if my formula is correct to what the game uses, then I now have mathematical proof that higher grav and higher jump force such that the character reaches the same height both before and after will result in faster jumps.

tb = ta*(sqrt(ga/gb))

I'll show how I got these if anyone cares after we've confirmed they work.

edit: Should we let kupo back into the WBR? He spent a lot of time getting data for stuff like this, and I'm sure he'd be interested in helping.

 

[Almas]

If Almas sees this, do you think you might be able to identify which all variables in PSA a given multiplier in your engine changes? For example, the FH height value controlled at least both V initial velocity and a possibly unknown DJ value while the gravity code also controlled terminal velocity in addition to whatever else.

Also, did custom move gravities get added to the latest gravity engine? We either need a way to do that in PSA or one of Almas's codes, as near-Melee levels of gravity can have significant effects on Up-B moves -- Samus's goes ~1/3 of its old distance.

Errm, no I can't really. My code intercepts the values when they're used for a location modifier or somewhat. But it only really deals with the values to multiply something else by. I'm not sure exactly what it deals with, because the same lines of code deal with where a person's name is displayed on the screen (e.g. above their character). I did know that there were other variables at work that I wasn't seeing, but I couldn't find them. And that there was another segment of code that worked with other velocities.

Aaand, yes. They did, a while ago. And I was told that they were working and everything was dandy for ages. And then I asked someone competent and it turns out you had been using my old code when I asked you to test my new codes. So custom move gravity modification doesn't work, and I don't know why. I have my Gecko at university but plugging in is more of a hassle (I'd have to borrow a laptop)... So unless I can identify the glitch by inspection.

 

[Shell]

Ah, thanks for the clarification, Almas.

 

[shanus]

16 directional air dodges now work. Go me.

 

[Veril]

Go you.

link? I'd like to play around with this

 

[shanus]

I currently only installed it on Fox, the 8 directional air dodge code is still on Falco and Ness which I will update with it later.

As the slide angle is now better, I might reduce the overall momentum as Fox's WD is insanely good now. Here is the link:
http://shanemulliganphotography.blogsite.org:6111/~shane/NearGold/Melee2.0/

Pac is labelled FitFox 16DIRECTIONAL etcetc