Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[adumbrodeus]

Standing, firing full blast at once every ten frames.

Ok, why would I let you do that anyway? When you start up that 41 frames of vulnerability minimum, I can punish it from pretty much anywhere (dependent on the stage), in this situation it's better to increase my advantage, or do a kill if possible. Depends on the character of course, but I consider it pointless. I have no issue taking a laser or two to rack or kill.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This discussion is getting out hand. I think everyone just needs to walk away and pick up a new topic.

 

[IrisKong]

its pretty irrelevant what order people are in passed B tier anyways IMO.

 

[Astartes]

pierce says that squirtle by himself would be A tier. does anyone agree with that. i mean i love the ninja turtle as much as anyone but is he really that good.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

its pretty irrelevant what order people are in passed B tier anyways IMO.

It's pretty irrelevant what your tier status is after A IMO.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's pretty irrelevant what your tier status is after A IMO.

It's pretty irrelevant what your tier status is after S IMO.

 

[Clai]

Snakee has played my fox and more importantly, R00kies fox. He hates the matchup and Cps it with sheik.

I rest my case

If your case is "why should snakee go for a not-very-practical Dsmash infinite when he can just ftilt Fox all day long," then I'd say you wrap your case very nicely.

In the same amount of time that it takes people to practice powershielding Fox's lasers perfectly, people can be looking for ways to completely shut down MK or Snake with their mains. Harder to do? Yes, but it will be waaaaaay more useful in the long run than trying a gimmick against a character controlled by a player who might not even have the intention to camp you.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It's pretty irrelevant what your tier status is after S IMO.

Maybe if IC was in S i'd agree with you.

In the same amount of time that it takes people to practice powershielding Fox's lasers perfectly, people can be looking for ways to completely shut down MK or Snake with their mains. Harder to do? Yes, but it will be waaaaaay more useful in the long run than trying a gimmick against a character controlled by a player who might not even have the intention to camp you.

That's exactly why I said the discussion was getting out hand.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Maybe if IC was in S i'd agree with you.

LOL@THIS
Yeah like Ice Climbers matter *eyeroll here*

That's exactly why I said the discussion was getting out hand.

learning to powershield is ALWAYS a good thing.
if you can powershield Fox's laser consistently, it does allow you to perform better in many other matches outside that of Fox's laser camping. Its a fact.

 

[Zankoku]

Ok, why would I let you do that anyway? When you start up that 41 frames of vulnerability minimum, I can punish it from pretty much anywhere (dependent on the stage), in this situation it's better to increase my advantage, or do a kill if possible. Depends on the character of course, but I consider it pointless. I have no issue taking a laser or two to rack or kill.

I used that pattern because it is strictly the fastest pattern. Any safer variants like SHL, SHDL, or SHTL would incur even less damage than what I predicted.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

LOL@THIS
Yeah like Ice Climbers matter *eyeroll here*

They don't matter?

 

[Conviction]

OMG the PS every laser agruement is done aight? It can't be done perfectly all the time homie, I'm sorry.
(I'm ingoring any other post about that subject)
BACK TO THE REAL SUBJECT

So ZSS mainers think like I do and think it's Fox's favor or just flat out even?

Can I get your guys reason why you think that? It would be nice to see from a ZSS mainers' prespective.

 

[Max Ketchum]

This thread = gold.

 

[Conviction]

Yea the past couple of pages have been funny.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

ZSS has an infinite on Fox that starts with dsmash... how would that be in fox's favor?

 

[crifer]

beacuse a good fox won´t get dsmashed that easily. we should never land in front of zss with ending lag.
and we camp zss.

 

[Ripple]

its not an infinite

its a 0-120 (possible death) plus they have to move

 

[ShadowLink84]

They don't matter?

nope.

ice climbers have major hype but thats it.

They aren't nearly as good as Metaknight or Snake.
So no, they don't matter.

IC's are good but not in the same league as Snake and metaboob.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Honestly, Fox's lasers mean little to the top characters. They all beat him for a reason. The lasers will only do 1-2% dmg @ long range and that's not much (if anything).

What's the point if you can PS the lasers or not? Approach him. Sure you can abuse his overall OK approaching but if you can't reflect or air camp projectiles then you're wasting your time.

Fox vs ZSS 40:60 ZSS.

 

[Chuee]

Fox vs ZSS is not Fox's favor.
Saying Fox won't get Dsmashed that much is like saying DK won't get grabbed by D3 that often so that means that the MU isn't bad.
Getting hit by the Dsmash once is always death or an ***load of damage.
Crouch > Lasers.
Juggles.

I rest my case.

 

[Conviction]

Please ZSS MAINERS tell my why you think this is even or Fox's favor. Not being rude to you guys but it seems you failed to pick out the important ZSS mainers comments on the match-up between the pages of agruements.


EDIT: Why does Fox go even with Snake,D3,Wario and such if top tiers beat him that easily. Fox adv. Rob others I don't feel like metioning.

 

[Max Ketchum]

I play ZSS but have 0 Fox experience. From what I can infer about the matchup, Fox has a strong enough escape game to avoid the dsmash quite well. The only things I can see ZSS punishing Fox with dsmash on are like...powershielded smashes or perfectly read/spaced ones on whiffed dairs. Other than that, it doesn't seem too likely for her to land one on him consistently.

The kill percents are kinda crazy as well, ZSS will die at like 80% to usmash and kill back at 110 with a harder move to hit with. As soon as Fox powershields a side B or dsmash from ZSS, it's a free kill move. Neither character is incredibly proficient at gimping the other, from what I can tell.

Also, once Fox has taken some damage, won't the dsmash chain become ineffective due to the move not being staled enough? Like, if Fox is at 40 and her dsmash is fresh, can she still chain him? If the lock is conditional to a low enough percent (obviously it is percent-conditional, but if it's something like 70 then this doesn't apply), then that's pretty rough.

I'd say it's even, if anyone wins it's ZSS.

 

[noradseven]

^^^Guess what I do got exp in this matchup and I play ZSS.

Please ZSS MAINERS tell my why you think this is even or Fox's favor. Not being rude to you guys but it seems you failed to pick out the important ZSS mainers comments on the match-up between the pages of agruements.

Basically you **** with our air game, and your ground speed is so fast, you can punish any over B spacing game we try to pull, plus you have solid AAs, or at least against ZSS u do ha. If we get you to jump first we have an advantage but its not as big as one we would normally have. Combine that and you stock us easy at under 100% and its a tricky match.

Don't forget we have slower OSS options compared to most of the cast so alot of foxes stuff becomes safe unless we PS all of d-air(lol), or a bit easier option is to PS the followup and punish but otherwise its safe.

 

[Zankoku]

Fox vs ZSS is not Fox's favor.
Saying Fox won't get Dsmashed that much is like saying DK won't get grabbed by D3 that often so that means that the MU isn't bad.
Getting hit by the Dsmash once is always death or an ***load of damage.
Crouch > Lasers.
Juggles.

I rest my case.

It's pretty good that you're resting your case, 'cause you just compared a frame-6 grab to a frame-20 dsmash.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Yeah, I agree about the safety on shield. Dair on shield is pretty hard for ZSS to punish, I'm not really sure what she can do about that. Maybe shield drop utilt?

 

[Conviction]

Ankoku speak for me why I don't listen to him on this MU anymore XD

Ahhh that makes sense Seven (Reminds me of what I said lol). I agrued Fox is safe on shield but people denied it >.<

What's your take on the Gimping and Recovering in this MU?

EDIT: Hey check out my tech Delux Sunshine Combo on the Fox boards you think it can pulled off on ZSS? It seems pretty possible to me.

 

[Lightning93]

Honestly, Fox's lasers mean little to the top characters. They all beat him for a reason. The lasers will only do 1-2% dmg @ long range and that's not much (if anything).

What? Snake, MK, DDD, Diddy, ROB, and Falco are all around 50:50...

Saying Fox won't get Dsmashed that much is like saying DK won't get grabbed by D3 that often so that means that the MU isn't bad.

I would have to disagree. Getting shieldgrabbed is much more different than being hit by a smash.

Getting hit by the Dsmash once is always death or an ***load of damage.

True, but if the MU is just Fox's mobility options vs ZSS Dsmash, Fox wins.

Crouch > Lasers.

Crouching gives Fox an opportunity to approach with running shield (which, coupled with his speed, has one of the best sliding distances in the game) or SHAD, at which point he disables ZSS's spacing and exemplifies his superior close-range game.

Juggles.

Fox can damage rack just as well or better than ZSS can.

 

[Conviction]

Light please don't waste your time breaking down HIS POST. I think he doesn't even know what he is talking about and is just talking out his mouth. Also, Ankoku just shut him up basically.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Top characters do not include ROB and D3 is the exception. We're left w/ Falco, Snake, Diddy and MK, according to your post.
They all have the slight advantage and MK is a 40:60 counter.

 

[Nefarious B]

Fox should be gimped everytime he has to use up b. Side b isn't very hard for ZS to punish either because it's fairly easy to react to. Shine stalling is pretty effective in general if you get knocked high, stay outa her range then as she falls back down get back to the ground before she can jump back up. I find rising fair somewhat difficult to punish if you're coming from below the stage, just make sure you don't get predicted and bair stage spiked.

It's 50-50 or maybe 55-45 in ZS's favor IMO. A good fox shouldn't be getting dsmash chained more than once or twice per set.

I agree with norad though, this match is just kinda annoying because it forces us to play very differently. The nice thing though is that many ZSs second Sheik or Pika to CP Falco, so it's easy to CP. This is why Snakeee CPs Sheik, because he's already good with her and there's not reason not to because it should be autowin for him.

 

[noradseven]

Getting fox off the edge can be tricky but yeah I can understand what you are saying, thats why I said its probably even but I feel like its 6-4 fox personally.

Yeah, I agree about the safety on shield. Dair on shield is pretty hard for ZSS to punish, I'm not really sure what she can do about that. Maybe shield drop utilt?

Basically you can mind game with u-smash(fox can dodge and punish), u-air(very hard he can mixup with down B), the last option is to pray the fox screws up their timing and get a lucky u-tilt but it really doesn't work your best option is to shield drop and PS the follow up and do a standing d-tilt or a u-tilt.

 

[Chuee]

Why oh why do character boards always have to make their MUs seem better than they are.
No matter how many times you say Fox won't get Dsmashed, he still will.

 

[Conviction]

Top characters do not include ROB and D3 is the exception. We're left w/ Falco, Snake, Diddy and MK, according to your post.
They all have the slight advantage and MK is a 40:60 counter.

Haha so Light is right. There are even basically. MK is the only one you got on us >.> Wow I like how you totally disown Rob and D3. It's true that ROB and D3 is up there for a reason.

EDIT: CHUE are you reading what ZSSs are saying? LOL why I am replying to you again?

 

[Nefarious B]

Lightning are you going to R3 next weekend? I'd be down to do some friendlies, Ive got very little Fox xp at the moment.

Edit:

EDIT: CHUE are you reading what ZSSs are saying? LOL why I am replying to you again?

You should probably stop taking this so personally. Instead of worrying so much about the matchup numbers, I hope you're actually trying to play people to learn the matchup. A good ZS will wreck you if you think that you can just avoid her stuff and haven't actually practiced being more evasive.

 

[noradseven]

Haha so Light is right. There are even basically. MK is the only one you got on us >.> Wow I like how you totally disown Rob and D3. It's true that ROB and D3 is up there for a reason.

EDIT: CHUE are you reading what ZSSs are saying? LOL why I am replying to you again?

I thought ROB was B tier I think he should be A but I thought he was B.

 

[Conviction]

N.B. you need most def get some friendlies in with Light he is possibly one of the best Foxes in the U.S.

Well from the ACTUAL DISCUSSION I think this MU is 50:50 with tilting to 45:55 on either characters favor.
But you guys find the MU annoying? I find it quite fun. One of my favs. XD I guess I'm wierd.

 

[Zankoku]

Why oh why do character boards always have to make their MUs seem better than they are.
No matter how many times you say Fox won't get Dsmashed, he still will.

Sure, it'll happen.
Still not even half as often as Dedede grabbing a DK, though.

 

[Conviction]

N.B. I play ZSSs in GA. I know what I'm doing. (Not to sound cocky). I know the MU outside of the paper.


EDIT:

third SBR-B created Brawl Tier List.

S Tier:

Meta Knight
Snake
Wario
Falco
Diddy Kong
King Dedede

A Tier:

Marth
Mr. Game & Watch
Pikachu
Olimar
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Kirby


ROB qualifies.


EDIT 2: N.B. I'm sorry I'm pissed and it's bothering you but earlier I've been arguing in circles with people like Chue. It's frustating.

 

[Chuee]

Yeah, I read what they say.
Example: Nefarious said that a good Fox will only get Dsmashed once or twice a match. Once or twice still affects the MU. Say you're down 80% to 0%. Getting a dsmash would just about even the match up for you (the zss).
Oh, btw you spelled my name wrong.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke88C2YZjx4
The first stock is a really good example. JJ had a 80% lead on the D3. Once he got grabbed it evened the match. One or two times helps even the match if the other player is less skilled than you, or gives you a good percent/stock lead if the match is already about even.

 

[noradseven]

N.B. you need most def get some friendlies in with Light he is possibly one of the best Foxes in the U.S.

Well from the ACTUAL DISCUSSION I think this MU is 50:50 with tilting to 45:55 on either characters favor.
But you guys find the MU annoying? I find it quite fun. One of my favs. XD I guess I'm wierd.

My fox friends have fun, but not me .