Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[ShadowLink84]

Some key points:

Fox can escape tornado and punish with Dair consistently.

So can MOST characters including Link. (yeah you can do it with Link, funny huh?)

Fox can punish MK for just as much damage as MK can for Fox.

Can Fox get past his stupidly safe zoning game?
its like dealing with Marth, except in terms of ffense, Mk is event STRONG.

Fox and MK average the same amount of damage output over time.

Maybe if you trade punches.

Averaged from gimping mechanics, possible kill moves, momentum canceling, and DI, MK and Fox kill each other with same amount of difficulty./quote]
...

What?
Fox hasto get past the stupid razor sword, has to get past his stupid edge guard game.
How can you even claim that they have the same difficulty killing each other when MK can zone Fox, edge guard Fox, defend himself from Fox, in a manner that is greater than what Fox can do to him?

Fox can camp.

Laser camp SUCKS






when the opponent is close.
And MK is very quick.

MK can space.

ONly thing I agree with

Also, Dair to Upsmash was generally considered a true combo back when that t-shirt was made. And seeing as it still consists of 90% of my kills at tournaments I think I'll keep it the way it is.

Subjective<objective.

 

[Lightning93]

Well you can tell me Ganondorf is worse than metaknight, but the debates already been through with the same arguements...


Fox falls faster, he actually has a harder time escaping than most characters. Yes, large, heavy, fast falling characters have a harder time escaping than others. This is because they are large, heavy, and fast falling. (facepalm)

I'm sorry, you're obviously trying to somehow disprove me by putting lies in my mouth. There HAS been a debate about MK vs Fox, and the result HAS come around 50:50. I'm a good friend of TJoe, and I can say I didn't see him take any part of it.

You obviously don't know about the mechanics that trap a character in MK's tornado. It has been shown multiple times through video proof that Fox can escape MK's tornado. This may have something to do with the size of his hurtbox, I don't honestly know. Don't make intuitive claims if you don't have the results to back them up.

I'm sorry, but if you guys really feel like arguing, read here first:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244972

Walls of text to your heart's content.

 

[Kewkky]

I have had experience in the MU. Fox has a harder time than ZSS overall, and ZSS also has her dsmash to give her that little "edge" when things get rough (or to gay Fox).

It's up to the other ZSS mainers to believe me, but in no way is the MU even. To each their opinions, and mine will be mine still, though... I still prefer to counterpick Kirby at Fox/Falco/Wolf, though. Ahhh, such huge amounts of ****...

And it's also up to anyone if they wanna believe I play good foxes, or not. I'm not here to argue that my opponents are high level or low. In the end, the MU will still be in ZSS' favor.

 

[DMG]

I know a lot more about Tornado, how it works, how to escape it, etc than 90% of the people out there. What I can tell you is that Fox cannot 100% foolproof escape from Tornado as there are too many variables that are controlled by the MK player that allow him to have control on whether you can escape or not/punish or not.

Also read the verdict. 6/4. That is not 5/5 lmao.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fox isn't 50:50 with MK or that close to it lol.

Also Fox cannot consistently escape tornado. Escaping tornado is much more complicated than just "SDI/Footstool/other thing that is guaranteed". You have to factor in what MK does/where he hits you/when in the animation he reaches you. Can Fox escape everytime if MK doesn't rise with tornado/keep pressing B? Can he escape if MK only hits him with the very side? What makes Fox/other characters pop out of tornado? Does weight/floatiness factor into it, and if so, what effects do they have? Do you know the definite answer to these? If you escape from Tornado, can Dair break through the sides? Can you footstool the corners of MK's Tornado?

As for the matchup, MK turns it more into his favor with SDI+Tech of Usmash. Call me crazy, but doing this consistently saves MK HARD in this matchup. Grab release to Usmash? Nope, it won't kill if MK SDI's and Tech's it. Not only that, but he can then Dsmash you and you can't SDI and tech that Back lol. If he Fair's your shield incorrectly and you Usmash OOS, he can SDI down and tech and punish. This aspect of the matchup makes it much harder to kill MK, especially since that's not only Fox's choice move to use to kill, but the only one with realistic opportunities to kill with.

Your SDI is so friggin' gay.

 

[DMG]

Dude like people say "Oh this isn't applicable because blah blah blah" but most of them haven't even tried it. For grab releases in general, it's easy as HELL SDIing ANYTHING because you KNOW it's coming. That Usmash/Spike/Kill move, you KNOW the other guy wants it. You KNOW he has to initiate it at a certain point for it to work, and even if you are slow you can look for that. Even if it's a different scenario, you can tell in Brawl when you mess up your spacing and start to SDI while you have free time. You might as well. But people don't do it sadly.

SDI is so important to the game that literally the game fundamentally changes and evolves if SDI was prevalent/widespread enough and used effectively as much as possible.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I agree with DMG.

oh yeah thats right there was the SDI up then tech the floor.
Forgot we can do that >.<

 

[Lightning93]

Also read the verdict. 6/4. That is not 5/5 lmao.

Oh incredibly sorry, they must have updated it since I last checked. Some of the last numbers I saw in the thread were 50:50 so I just went off of that. Good to see we actually have it decided.

 

[DMG]

I'm not gonna call people stupid on the Fox boards, but there was a LONG period of time where your boards thought stuff like Fox beats Snake, goes even with MK, and some other stuff that was like somewhat hard to fathom lol. In recent times though, they have been more realistic and things are shaping up.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Dude like people say "Oh this isn't applicable because blah blah blah" but most of them haven't even tried it. For grab releases in general, it's easy as HELL SDIing ANYTHING because you KNOW it's coming. That Usmash/Spike/Kill move, you KNOW the other guy wants it. You KNOW he has to initiate it at a certain point for it to work, and even if you are slow you can look for that. Even if it's a different scenario, you can tell in Brawl when you mess up your spacing and start to SDI while you have free time. You might as well. But people don't do it sadly.

SDI is so important to the game that literally the game fundamentally changes and evolves if SDI was prevalent/widespread enough and used effectively as much as possible.

But truthfully, does that surprise you? The vast majority of Brawl players ignore a number of fundamental points of techskill, SDI is only one example of this.

However just because they don't do it is no excuse to not recognize that it is part of the top of the metagame and incorporate it into their match-up ratios.



I'm gonna say this, Bowyer has some interesting ideas on how to deal with the MU, and I'm still undecided as to whether it's a skill that the rest of the community hasn't developed or he's just good at reading.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I'm a little lost here. Is it being suggested that Fox's upsmash can be SDI'd into the ground? That's pretty cool.

 

[DMG]

It's not even just barely suggested, it's already proven at this point. I will make a video about these things and show them. I mean I and others have demonstrated them before, but I can make a video that others can clearly see.

 

[Chuee]

TKD thinks mk Fox is Fox's favor.
lol

 

[DMG]

Except every time you go for that Usmash, MK can tech it in place when he is most "vulnerable" to it where as that Dair gimp not even godly SDI will probably save you lol.

 

[Kewkky]

I'm a little lost here. Is it being suggested that Fox's upsmash can be SDI'd into the ground? That's pretty cool.

Nope, Fox's usmash sends you upwards. SDI'ing into the ground against vertical trajectory moves is like.... Impossible to do, as far as what I know so far.

Stuff that sends you on a horizontal trajectory (slightly higher/lower than horizontal as well) with no DI applied can be DI'd into the ground and teched. Some multi-hit moves that have enough knockback on their hits can also be teched like this. Proper SDI is pretty **** hard though, I suggest incorporating quarter-circle DI instead of that boring and hardly applicable "double-sticking DI" (upwards only, and it's the same as just dairing and fastfalling practically) into your gameplay.


You'd be surprised what crazy things you can discover... I found out that Kirby can DI MK's dthrow downwards, tech the floor and roll away (or towards, but I suggest away) from MK, which pretty much limits his follow-ups to like 1-2 options that are easy to see coming (he'll have to outright dash after you and hope he reaches you before you can put up your shield/roll/hit him).

 

[Lightning93]

In recent times though, they have been more realistic and things are shaping up.

Thank you, a recent influx of dedicated players have helped contribute to the cause .

 

[DMG]

SDIing a move that sends you upwards into the ground is not harder than SDIing a regular move into the ground and teching it. The move sends you upwards, SDI is inputted BEFORE you move upwards. So it doesn't matter exactly which direction you would fly after SDI is inputted, if you input enough SDI to get to the ground and tech.

 

[Kewkky]

SDIing a move that sends you upwards into the ground is not harder than SDIing a regular move into the ground and teching it. The move sends you upwards, SDI is inputted BEFORE you move upwards. So it doesn't matter exactly which direction you would fly after SDI is inputted, if you input enough SDI to get to the ground and tech.

Hmmz, sounds like something pretty hard to pull off on a lot of moves. I've pulled it off a couple of times in Melee, didn't know Brawl could do it also.

 

[Gnes]

Fox isn't 50:50 with MK or that close to it lol.

Also Fox cannot consistently escape tornado. Escaping tornado is much more complicated than just "SDI/Footstool/other thing that is guaranteed". You have to factor in what MK does/where he hits you/when in the animation he reaches you.

As for the matchup, MK turns it more into his favor with SDI+Tech of Usmash. Call me crazy, but doing this consistently saves MK HARD in this matchup. Grab release to Usmash? Nope, it won't kill if MK SDI's and Tech's it. Not only that, but he can then Dsmash you and you can't SDI and tech that Back lol. If he Fair's your shield incorrectly and you Usmash OOS, he can SDI down and tech and punish. This aspect of the matchup makes it much harder to kill MK, especially since that's not only Fox's choice move to use to kill, but the only one with realistic opportunities to kill with.

It seems to me you believe smash DI'ing out of tornado is harder than smash DI'ing fox's upsmash down and teching it(which is impossible btw considering the trajectory it sends you)

Nope, Fox's usmash sends you upwards. SDI'ing into the ground is like.... Impossible.

Exactly...people are forgetting the fundamentals of DI.

 

[DMG]

Ok then, how do people SDI and tech Snake's Utilt?

Go on, explain that one lol.

If you SDI a move far enough into the ground, it doesn't matter which direction the attack sends you. You can tech the floor. That's like saying you can't tech a wall if the attack doesn't send you directly into it. You can SDI into the wall and tech it even if the move sends you away from the wall.

I'm also talking about instances where it's much easier to SDI and tech, like when you get grab released by Fox and you see him run and go for the Usmash. You are already fairly close to the ground when he lands it, and you know it is coming before hand. Easy Scenario.

SDIing out of tornado is kind of hard because MK also has a lot of control over the move. If Fox could Usmash you, but change where his foot hits you WHILE the move is going, or if Fox could Usmash, Kick you, and choose how long the move will take to last while it is going on, or if Fox could Usmash and also move backwards/forwards as he pleases all throughout the move, then yes that would be a different story. SDIing a single move and getting away from the opponent is one thing, but SDIing a move that your opponent has where he controls so many facets... that's harder to successfully get away with. Not in the actual SDI, but in that the opponent can do things after you SDI to prevent you from punishing, or he can change tornado where you can't SDI that well.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It seems to me you believe smash DI'ing out of tornado is harder than smash DI'ing fox's upsmash down and teching it(which is impossible btw considering the trajectory it sends you)



Exactly...people are forgetting the fundamentals of DI.

SDI physically moves your character.


Want an illustration, try having a friend use a timer on you and then dair you with Ganondorf. Now try SDIing, you'll be amazed at where you can move before the trajectory even takes effect.


Remember, SDI moves you during HITLAG, well before the trajectory actually takes effect. It works because you're off the ground and getting hit. The angle is irrelevant BECAUSE THE HIT'S TRAJECTORY HASN'T COME INTO EFFECT YET.

 

[DMG]

Gnes knows what SDI is, and where it applies/how to apply it. He's not dumb or didn't know beforehand how it works. He's just wrong about this particular part where you can SDI into the ground and tech it even if the move sends you pure vertical.

Gnes bro, I don't want to have to expose you for this. I don't wanna hurt our friendship dawg.

 

[Gnes]

I would love to see a video of someone smash DI'ing snakes uptilt and teching it. Are there any videos out? Its awesome to say its possible and everything, but i'm gonna need some video evidence

If Im wrong Im wrong, but I would like for this to get dispelled.

Personally i find it much easier to smash DI out of tornado or simply just footstool the tornado...

U better find some videos before you decide to expose people son

 

[adumbrodeus]

Gnes knows what SDI is, and where it applies/how to apply it. He's not dumb or didn't know beforehand how it works. He's just wrong about this particular part where you can SDI into the ground and tech it even if the move sends you pure vertical.

Gnes bro, I don't want to have to expose you for this. I don't wanna hurt our friendship dawg.

Fair enough, I'm just a little confused as to why he'd think that a move would impossible to SDI in the opposite direction of it's trajectory if the trajectory hasn't come into effect yet. Assuming that he knows that it should follow.


Granted it's not exactly expected from a common-sense standpoint, but from a game mechanics standpoint it shouldn't be assumed otherwise.



But whatever, I don't think anyone would think less of him for not knowing one unusual case.

 

[DMG]

GNES these are Dphat's exact words:

AndyCutd (9:00:00 PM): dang wtf
AndyCutd (9:00:01 PM): tell gnes
AndyCutd (9:00:05 PM): i'll show him its possible
AndyCutd (9:00:07 PM): at wf

Dphat will show you you can tech upwards moves into the ground.

Gnes dawg, I can show you just a touch of what will come:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXOdwd-1EZc

Of course, you might nitpick at it and say "Oh, but you were close to the ground already, and that sends you horizontal so it's easy" but hey, most people didn't even know you could do it to a move like that. Be warned Gnes... Be warned...

 

[Gnes]

LOL...the funny part of that statement is...as you said it sends you horizontal...meaning you DI vertically down...and well you know the rest.

If thats a taste of whats to come, doesn't look like you'll be exposing me anytime soon.

And realize, I am not talking about upward moves, I am talking about fox upsmash/snakes uptilt.

 

[DMG]

Gnes dawg I'm just saying, you're only making the exposing much more sweeter for me when it comes.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Vids pl0x. I believe you and know brawl is ****ed up in how SDI works...but I just don't know how my self. I can only SDI tornado well...and Pika's Usmash...but who can't?

 

[noradseven]

Is there any plan to you know come up with a tier list based on matchups from the big tournaments, this seems like it would make alot of sense to me you can even do based off of all players at big tourney based off of people considered top 3-4-5 however many by the community and compare the matchups. Don't get all this will not represent true matchups, and the characters with the good players will be higher ranked, well maybe there is a reason why the good players play them or something. IDK I think it would be a good alternative, you know its like what EVERY OTHER FIGHTER DOES, plus then at least we would have some universally accepted data to help back us up a bit lol.

 

[Alphicans]

I don't think SDI'ing fox's usmash + teching is that practical. What I mean is that it's definitely a really good thing to be able to do, but I bet the success rate will be like 5% at most.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't think SDI'ing fox's usmash + teching is that practical. What I mean is that it's definitely a really good thing to be able to do, but I bet the success rate will be like 5% at most.

Why?

Same input each time, it's just a matter of doing it quickly enough.


Off grab release or OOS, you've got plenty of time to realize your f-up, and it's not like fox has anything else that kills around that percent.

 

[Alphicans]

Well I've never seen it before, and usually those types of things are really hard to do.

If something is hard to do it doesn't matter how simplistic it is to do it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well I've never seen it before, and usually those types of things are really hard to do.

If something is hard to do it doesn't matter how simplistic it is to do it.

If something is hard to do, but requires the exact same input each time to do it, you practice it until you can do it consistently.


SDI like that is practical as long as you practice.

 

[Kewkky]

Vids pl0x. I believe you and know brawl is ****ed up in how SDI works...but I just don't know how my self. I can only SDI tornado well...and Pika's Usmash...but who can't?

You can SDI Pika's usmash and compared it to MK's tornado? I'm guessing you meant dsmash, so meh.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

While not displaying any significant advancement in metagame, puff has the right stuff to be put ahead of Samus and or Yoshi IMO.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

**** it DMG your SDI is godly.

 

[Alphicans]

If something is hard to do, but requires the exact same input each time to do it, you practice it until you can do it consistently.


SDI like that is practical as long as you practice.

I foresee no MK's ever SDI'ing + teching fox's usmash. If one does it'll be a one time thing.

 

[Kinzer]

You won't see it happen because nobody will use Fox against MK when you can use MK against MK.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I foresee no MK's ever SDI'ing + teching fox's usmash. If one does it'll be a one time thing.

Why?

What makes fox's upsmash immune to SDI?


I've seen people SDI into the ground from higher up and tech it off a single hit move (DMG posted a vid earlier).


And why a one-time thing, it's not like it's hard to start SDIing the two major set-ups for it, if something can be done once it can happen again. If it's done once and the set-up gives you more then reaction time, it can be done reliably with practice.

 

[Alphicans]

Not because it's overwhelmingly hard but because it just won't happen. I know that's a really flimsy argument but it's my best explanation rofl... I am sure someone knows what I mean :\.