Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[stingers]

Alphicans I wouldn't say that necessarily. SDI to tech is used...fairly often in Melee, mainly by Jiggs players after a missed rest. Is it easy? No, but they do practice it.

 

[Alphicans]

I don't see MK's practicing that until fox becomes a common and threatful character. Plus I can't think of many other common scenarios that would require practice for something like this.

 

[Nefarious B]

I remember seeing a vid of someone SDIing marth's up b into the ground, teching, and dealin the fat punishment for it. If it's possible for that I don't see why usmash wouldn't be, you're closer to the ground with that.

 

[Kitamerby]

Hey Ankoku!~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_zAJcQHvJ0

HYPERSHIELDING.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

About SDI into the ground. Really, I think it is dependent upon percents and the move. As Peach I can ground float hold down on the control stick upon being hit by a MKs Dsmash at 100% and I can tech it. Any higher and it doesn't seem to really work.

In theory, you should be able to SDI all attacks, right?

 

[Zankoku]

To a pattern. Which I said was fine for 15-30 seconds at a time.

Anyway, last time I checked SDIing Fox's usmash into the ground for a groundtech was impossible. I hate you people. I will now go re-re-reverify this.

EDIT: Deconfirmed. First of all, it is physically impossible to SDI downward if you were hit while standing, so you need to be in the air when you get hit by Fox usmash to actually do any of the following. At 0%, the usmash doesn't send you into tumble, but you can SDI the usmash downward so hard that it literally sends you nowhere. At several %'s below around 25%, you can do the same thing but the usmash sends you into tumble so you can then immediately groundtech it. Past that %, no amount of SDI will reduce the knockback enough to keep you to the ground, and no amount of SDI will make you collide with the ground (this is a restriction of Brawl; you were allowed to SDI-collide against your momentum in Melee), and once the hitlag is over, you are sent upward, with nothing to tech against.

 

[ShadowLink84]

To a pattern. Which I said was fine for 15-30 seconds at a time.

Anyway, last time I checked SDIing Fox's usmash into the ground for a groundtech was impossible. I hate you people. I will now go re-re-reverify this.

EDIT: Deconfirmed. First of all, it is physically impossible to SDI downward if you were hit while standing, so you need to be in the air when you get hit by Fox usmash to actually do any of the following. At 0%, the usmash doesn't send you into tumble, but you can SDI the usmash downward so hard that it literally sends you nowhere. At several %'s below around 25%, you can do the same thing but the usmash sends you into tumble so you can then immediately groundtech it. Past that %, no amount of SDI will reduce the knockback enough to keep you to the ground, and no amount of SDI will make you collide with the ground (this is a restriction of Brawl; you were allowed to SDI-collide against your momentum in Melee), and once the hitlag is over, you are sent upward, with nothing to tech against.

Have you tried instead to SDI Up and then down Ankoku?

 

[Zankoku]

You mean, from the ground? Yes, I have. You literally are not allowed to SDI down, even if you are no longer on the ground due to SDI, if you had been on the ground to start with.

 

[noradseven]

Hey Ankoku!~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_zAJcQHvJ0

HYPERSHIELDING.

Lol I really need to set it to Y button for shield as well, pressing R trigger like a madman to PS a ton of **** is tricky.

 

[M@v]

I said it before in this thread and I'll say it again: my most important prediction is that Marth will be S tier next time. I really dont see any reason why he shouldn't be.

 

[Nefarious B]

You mean, from the ground? Yes, I have. You literally are not allowed to SDI down, even if you are no longer on the ground due to SDI, if you had been on the ground to start with.

I think DMG was saying from an air release though (I didn't even know fox had a guaranteed usmash on mk from release but hey), which would mean you're in the air.

 

[Nic64]

I said it before in this thread and I'll say it again: my most important prediction is that Marth will be S tier next time. I really dont see any reason why he shouldn't be.

It depends on what you value. He does ok against most of S tier, but he loses horribly to MK and would be the only S tier character to have that problem if he were included. Getting ***** by the most common character in the game is a pretty serious handicap.

 

[noradseven]

I think DMG was saying from an air release though (I didn't even know fox had a guaranteed usmash on mk from release but hey), which would mean you're in the air.

depends it could hit during landing recovery and Im not sure how the game treats that though since ppl are talking about it Im assuming it can be done ealier

 

[Zankoku]

I think DMG was saying from an air release though (I didn't even know fox had a guaranteed usmash on mk from release but hey), which would mean you're in the air.

I'm tired of repeating myself. Go back and reread my post about what exactly you can and cannot do with SDI closely.

 

[The Truth!]

Except like he flat out said so... im not sure how nick/daz feel about it though, but I know snakeee thinks its even or disadvantage for ZSS sooo...

I was reading ya'lls insane argument, and finally decided to ask him. He said it favors ZSS 'he guesses' but personally hates the mu and uses shiek instead.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It depends on what you value. He does ok against most of S tier, but he loses horribly to MK and would be the only S tier character to have that problem if he were included. Getting ***** by the most common character in the game is a pretty serious handicap.

irc it was around 6-4.

Hardly ****.

 

[Nic64]

irc it was around 6-4.

Hardly ****.

A lot of MK mains will rate it around 6:4, Marth mains tend to go more towards 3:7. Some exceptions to that like havok claiming it was near even when he mained Marth, and teh spammerer saying that MK ***** Marth.

Even if it's 6:4 it's still significantly worse than what Diddy or IC's have to deal with though, and your MK matchup really determines a lot among upper tier characters. I don't really see how he's S tier when he loses badly to MK and is near even with other S tier characters except Snake, who I think he actually beats soundly.

Well Wario too but Wario isn't S tier in my mind, it really is all just meaningless opinions.

 

[M@v]

It depends on what you value. He does ok against most of S tier, but he loses horribly to MK and would be the only S tier character to have that problem if he were included. Getting ***** by the most common character in the game is a pretty serious handicap.

Lol, he doesn't get ***** by Mk. You know a character's good when we think their worst matchup is a 4-6 disadvantage

 

[Nic64]

I think it's more like 35:65 but like I said, 4:6 is still worse than what actual S tier characters have to deal with from the most common character.

 

[Turbo Ether]

MK pisses on Marth pretty badly, imo. I don't see how Marth mains stomach the matchup.

 

[Kewkky]

MK pisses on Marth pretty badly, imo. I don't see how Marth mains stomach the matchup.

Show me a vid where MK pisses on Marth. [/too_literal]

 

[Chuee]

lol Mikehaze does good against mks. Neo does good against mks.

 

[-Mars-]

Mikehaze probably should do pretty good against Marths considering it's an even matchup.

 

[Chuee]

<.<
Typos suck

 

[Conviction]

XD I was so confused reading what you said before.

 

[xDD-Master]

Marth doesnt get ***** by MK... Marth could be Top 5.

 

[OverLade]

Lmfao at you guys.

MK ***** Marth if you play the matchup properly, many top MKs just choose not to.

 

[-Ran]

Marth vs MK makes my soul shatter every time I play it if the MK knows the match up.

 

[Crizthakidd]

marths can destroy a lot of mks that dont know the matchup. marth can shut down a mk who rushes.

BUT if u the MK hardcore camp the marth like u would Gamenwatch but in a different style, go for smart gimps too, then marth has ZERo options a lot of the time.

 

[OverLade]

You dont even have to camp marth to **** him. Everytime he jumps you can literally Up B or Tornado and beat whatever he does. He also has no reliable way of safely getting back to the stage when he's on the edge. And if you learn to powershield everything, you can chase him everytime he's in the air and just Powershield his Fairs and grab him.

 

[Conviction]

Considering all MUs at high level this means Marth does get ***** because MKs are supposed to know the MU in high level soo this gives evidence to what Red said.

 

[Chuee]

Then I guess M2K doesn't play the MU properly.

 

[Conviction]

I remember M2K trying to go by an honor system *there is a thread he made somewhere on here >.<*
So yea he probably doesn't play some MUs properly do to his I don't wanna be gay honor code (I have nothing wrong with it though )


EDIT: Chuee notice the part where Red says "they CHOOSE not to play it properly*

 

[Shaya]

Guys, guys,

Marth ***** Snake Meta Knight.

And if anyone wants to throw around the whole power shield to grab Marth thang,
lest we forget Marth can punish everyone of MK's multi hit moves with a move that kills with shexyllent SDI.

Marths only problematic match ups are MK and Dedede.
With Dedede dropping in usage,
due to characters that handle D3 soundly rising,
which Marth beats or goes at least even with,
whilst D3 also has a similar/worse match up with MK,
etc etc etc.

I say Marth : MK is not a bad match up. It's just one of the -hardest- not bad match ups ever. To win it against an equally skilled MK who knows the match up Marth must be a 'technical freak'. For Marth to win in the options he has to use fundamental game mechanics at a very high level. Having such fundamentals doens't skew [m]any match up against Marth though, as hes a one strike spacing dawg/gawd.

 

[Browny]

marth vs mk is the most overrated MU in the game IMO.

If it takes an incredible marth to beat an mk of similar skill, 98% of characters will require a brawl savant to beat said mk. truly sick and tired of this constant excuse for marths placing in a list.

IMO for people who cant read

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Guys, guys,

Marth ***** Snake Meta Knight.

And if anyone wants to throw around the whole power shield to grab Marth thang,
lest we forget Marth can punish everyone of MK's multi hit moves with a move that kills with shexyllent SDI.

Marths only problematic match ups are MK and Dedede.
With Dedede dropping in usage,
due to characters that handle D3 soundly rising,
which Marth beats or goes at least even with,
whilst D3 also has a similar/worse match up with MK,
etc etc etc.

I say Marth : MK is not a bad match up. It's just one of the -hardest- not bad match ups ever. To win it against an equally skilled MK who knows the match up Marth must be a 'technical freak'. For Marth to win in the options he has to use fundamental game mechanics at a very high level. Having such fundamentals doens't skew [m]any match up against Marth though, as hes a one strike spacing dawg/gawd.

Can Marth place high at a tourney before we make these claims. It's growing rather tiresome how Marth's metagame is 100% superficial and practically unattainable by human standards. So until I see more Marth's placing higher in more tourneys I'll have to call bull on Marth's match ups against Snake MK and D3. It amazes me how Marth is just getting by on theory craft.

 

[Browny]

spare us the embarassment and dont bring up aussie tourneys please shaya

 

[LanceStern]

Can Marth place high at a tourney before we make these claims. It's growing rather tiresome how Marth's metagame is 100% superficial and practically unattainable by human standards. So until I see more Marth's placing higher in more tourneys I'll have to call bull on Marth's match ups against Snake MK and D3. It amazes me how Marth is just getting by on theory craft.

Have you not seen MikeHAZE?

Yes one or two anomalies don't mean everything, but he's shown Marth can hang and whip on these characters

 

[Turbo Ether]

I still say Snake beats Marth 6/4. Imo, Snake vs MK is 5/5, and I don't think there's anyway in hell Marth is as hard for Snake as MK is. Making the comparison, because a lot of people consider MK to be a superior version of Marth. For the record, I also think ROB beats Marth. DK is also debatable.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Have you not seen MikeHAZE?

Yes one or two anomalies don't mean everything, but he's shown Marth can hang and whip on these characters

I've seen haze vids of course. But it's as you say one or 2 anomalies don't make the match ups even.