Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Zankoku]

Powershielding intentionally is realistic. Tapping powershield to the beat of Paranoia Survivor MAX is not.

 

[Alphicans]

Thinking a human's reaction time is good enough to powershield everything is also unrealistic.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Thinking a human's reaction time is good enough to powershield everything is also unrealistic.

False. Powershielding everything in the game is realistic. Except for Marth's Fair, since Marth is a mixup god.

 

[Alphicans]

Can't tell if that's sarcasm or not lol, I won't respond because of that .

 

[Max Ketchum]

It was sarcastic, lol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol Shadowlink, keep white knightin' it up. Sleep takes precedence over arguing with the cast of the Big Bang Theory, I'm going to hit the sack.

Great, you admitted you were trolling.
*Thumbsup*
Sleep well.

Wait so does someone actually agree with the guy saying powershielding everything is realistic?

I agree with him to an extent.
Do read my posts before commenting.

Sorry, bro, this isn't relevant information because you didn't provide pages of theorycraft to support it. Thus this statement will be discarded!

Of course.
Simply because we dont know what happened.
Sayin Ally lost to m2k, this means Snake is a counter!
Isnt exactly direct evidence.

It is an indication, but unless we know what strategies, what occurred, not much can be done based on who beat who alone.

Of course if you just want to remain the time Ally's Falcon slapped around m2k's MK an call that and even matchup, feel free to do so but dont get mad if someone argues otherwise.

I do wonder how long turbo will troll things up before getting infracted though, really, it was said earlier but SWF is rather lenient.

 

[Alphicans]

Well I could tell the marth part was, but IDK about the first half :\.

EDIT: I read your posts.

 

[KirinBlaze]

Doom. Turbo.
I love you guys.
<3

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well I could tell the marth part was, but IDK about the first half :\.

EDIT: I read your posts.

Yaaay.
I agree with adumbrodeus in regards to why ZSS beats out Fox, i dont agree however with some of what he says.

Doom. Turbo.
I love you guys.
<3

That's like saying its good for trolls to troll.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Did anyone think when Shadowlink said sleep well, it was a bit creepy?

I'm not saying OMG theorycraft; I'm being practical.

And I love the Marth's fair thing way too much...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Did anyone think when Shadowlink said sleep well, it was a bit creepy?

I thought so too. >.<
Its what happens when I actually post seriously after several months. You get creepy stuff.

I'm not saying OMG theorycraft; I'm being practical.

And I love the Marth's fair thing way too much...

Yeah that was a bit much >.<

 

[noradseven]

lol eddie is totally the best character in GGAC, does he always win of course not, is he considered the best in both america and more importantly japan yes he is, infact the last tier list I saw for the game had
SS:eddie
S:testament
A:jam,slayer....yadayada, but that very same year people with low/bottom tier characters got second at SBO, it just shows how balanced the game is doesn't mean that one character isn't still the "best" character.

Snakee has played my fox and more importantly, R00kies fox. He hates the matchup and Cps it with sheik.

I rest my case

lol I agree with snakeee this matchup I feel is bad, or neutral at best, but it requires us to not play ZSS and we might as well play someone else that does better at it and doesn't force us to totally change our game.

False. Powershielding everything in the game is realistic. Except for Marth's Fair, since Marth is a mixup god.

Really Im able to PS marth all ****ing day, its like im kuroda or somethin.




Also god guys theorywise ZSS should win reality the fox normally wins so IDK what to say here.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I'm confused and my butt hurts. I'm leaving >:-0

 

[Turbo Ether]

Of course.
Simply because we dont know what happened.
Sayin Ally lost to m2k, this means Snake is a counter!
Isnt exactly direct evidence.

It is an indication, but unless we know what strategies, what occurred, not much can be done based on who beat who alone.

Of course if you just want to remain the time Ally's Falcon slapped around m2k's MK and call that and even matchup, feel free to do so but dont get mad if someone argues otherwise.

M@v's statement will be discarded by you. This is unimportant to me.

If I wanted to know the specific details of the Fox vs ZSS matchup, i'd further question M@v about his experience, talk to Rookie and talk to Snakeee as a start.

 

[ph00tbag]

This is at the best for ZSS an even match-up. I pretty much feel like the match-up would be in ZSS' favor if it weren't for lasers. ZSS beats Fox air to air and anti-air, but loses to him in ground to ground and goes even on air to ground. Most importantly, though, is Fox can camp ZSS, but ZSS can't camp Fox.

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol eddie is totally the best character in GGAC, does he always win of course not, is he considered the best in both america and more importantly japan yes he is, infact the last tier list I saw for the game had
SS:eddie
S:testament
A:jam,slayer....yadayada, but that very same year people with low/bottom tier characters got second at SBO, it just shows how balanced the game is doesn't mean that one character isn't still the "best" character.

Actually you missed the point i was making.

Eddie is te best character, even though realistically speaking, he does not win all the time.

Marth in melee however, wins MUCH more. Way more than Fox.
Fox is the best character in melee.

In theoy those respective characters (eddie and fox) are the best, even though metagame wise, they did not show themselves to be.

lol I agree with snakeee this matchup I feel is bad, or neutral at best, but it requires us to not play ZSS and we might as well play someone else that does better at it and doesn't force us to totally change our game.

Well that goes for most characters too. Why play against Sonic with Falcon when you can opt out for G&W?

Really Im able to PS marth all ****ing day, its like imjesus or somethin.

I agree

Also god guys theorywise ZSS should win reality the fox normally wins so IDK what to say here.

Mhm.

M@v's statement will be discarded by you.

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3479227

If I wanted to know the specific details of the Fox vs ZSS matchup, i'd further question M@v about his experience, talk to Rookie and talk to Snakeee as a start.

HOLY **** WHATS THIS!?
YOU AGREE WITH ME!
Congrats on going about things in a convoluted manner.
I was wrong for having faith in humanity.

Woof

 

[Lightning93]

Frankly the rest of your post just amounts to "you're not m2k so your argument is MEANINGLESS!"

Very exaggerated. M2K actually has the tourney experience and knowledge to make very practical judgments. I think Doom accurately portrayed his reasons in contrast to this whole "you're not well known so you're nothing" argument you think is intended from his post.

Its more of a statement of what is capable of being done and how pointless it is to say "fox's camping game is SO WTF OMG AMAZING!"
Since really, it isn't, the fact you can powershield it is enought o say it isnt as effective as people make it out to be.

I never said any of this, in fact, I was just merely pointing out how Fox is able to keep his mobility(which you agreed with) while being able to randomly mix up his laser output.

This is at the best for ZSS an even match-up. I pretty much feel like the match-up would be in ZSS' favor if it weren't for lasers. ZSS beats Fox air to air and anti-air, but loses to him in ground to ground and goes even on air to ground. Most importantly, though, is Fox can camp ZSS, but ZSS can't camp Fox.

This is wrong, because a good ZSS can powershield all of Fox's lasers XD.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Very exaggerated. M2K actually has the tourney experience and knowledge to make very practical judgments. I think Doom accurately portrayed his reasons in contrast to this whole "you're not well known so you're nothing" argument you think is intended from his post.

Actually that isn't it.
The issue si that while Doom does acknowledge that Adumbrodeus has knowledge on the subject, he bashes him for not having as much experience tournament wise.

This is why I used the M2K comparison.
M2k has both experience AND knowledge, while Adumbrodeus is merely lacking experience (as doom repeatedly pointed out.)

Which is poor because truly, the abilities of a character cannot change, merely, our perceivement of them.

I never said any of this, in fact, I was just merely pointing out how Fox is able to keep his mobility(which you agreed with) while being able to randomly mix up his laser output.This is wrong, because a good ZSS can powershield all of Fox's lasers XD.

I was speaking in general Lightning not towards you or anyone in particular.
I feel like powershielding all the hits of Zelda's Fsmash now. I swear if I pull it off, im posting it on youtube.

 

[Lightning93]

^ I agree it's possible, maybe not probable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_zAJcQHvJ0

 

[ShadowLink84]

HA that video was cute

 

[adumbrodeus]

Since there were a ton of responses on this, let me just say this, "a threat is greater then it's execution".

The basic idea of this is once you prove laser camping is useless, then it becomes a match similar to, you know, every match without projectiles, there's no point to him lasering if he knows you can powershield every one if you want to, so it becomes a spacing and zoning battle with both parties waiting for an opening.

False. Powershielding everything in the game is realistic. Except for Marth's Fair, since Marth is a mixup god.

...

Great strawman there.

Letssee, fox's laser is a great deal slower then reaction time (exact amount depends on the distance but the hitbox comes out slower then reaction). Marth's fair is frames 4-8.


My argument was that Fox's laser is extremely telegraphed so it's just a matter of learning the timing and doing it consistently.

Marth's fair is not telegraphed at all.


In other words the fundamental attribute that makes fox's laser powershieldable is not present in marth's fair, so of course you can powershield one reliably, but not the other.

Thinking a human's reaction time is good enough to powershield everything is also unrealistic.

Of course, 8 frames min, most smashers are 10, average people are 12 (that's the frame 0 btw, not the frame 1).

Powershielding intentionally is realistic. Tapping powershield to the beat of Paranoia Survivor MAX is not.

I think you underestimate what people can achieve when they try to get good at it.

stuff

Firstly, you'll notice I'm around a lot more during breaks, that's pretty much when I attend tournaments because my schedule is crazy during the semester.

That said, there's a pretty good community for all of the above in SBU, when I'm pretty much off the map, that's where I keep up my skills (though the brawl scene needs to let me know when they're doing stuff more, but that's neither here nor there).



As far as not having the experience to say this, honestly I'm commenting based on the top of the metagame, if you're claiming it's not humanly possible, well I simply disagree. I've personally performed more difficult feats on the piano, and performing the JC shine infinite for ANY length of time is far more difficult.


I think this community under-estimates what they can do when they actually practice, and part of it is the game fosters this type of apathy. I dunno, maybe this community needs a silent wolf equivalent to break them out of this technical apathy.

Spoiler

Apathy is death

 

[-Mars-]

Bwahahahahahahahaah Doom, Turbo Ether, and Alphicans be stylin on people in this thread lmao.

 

[Zankoku]

Since there were a ton of responses on this, let me just say this, "a threat is greater then it's execution".

The basic idea of this is once you prove laser camping is useless, then it becomes a match similar to, you know, every match without projectiles, there's no point to him lasering if he knows you can powershield every one if you want to, so it becomes a spacing and zoning battle with both parties waiting for an opening.

The funny part is, the Fox never has to stop laser camping until you've proved that it's not only useless, but detrimental. This won't happen, of course, because he can do one of two things every time.

1. Vary the timing, because the moment you perform an empty shield/unshield in expectation of a laser that doesn't happen, you're open enough to get hit by a laser. If you get hit by a laser, you have to approach eventually, which means Fox can laser camp as normal.
2. Standing lasers, because if your intent is to powershield then you have exactly zero free frames of action whatsoever before powershielding the next (except for jumping immediately after a powershield, since that doesn't invoke the unshield animation; too bad doing this kind of eliminates the possibility of powershielding any more lasers, unless you land on a platform), forcing a stalemate in which only you can lose out on.

So not only is the strategy of powershielding every single Fox laser for the duration of the game impractical, but it's entirely ineffective because you're not proving the laser camping game useless. You're just proving you can powershield lasers, and asking him to see for how long you can, at your own expense.

Not only that, but even if the Fox player were to for whatever reason decide not to play the game that he can at worst lose nothing, he can still choose not to approach while playing your aforementioned spacing/zoning game, at which point your loss will be the moment you leave the ground and discard the very possibility of powershielding a laser.

Almost every single outcome leads to "Fox ends up playing his laser camping game as normal," so I don't see how your suggestion of powershielding every laser is, in your belief, not only practical, but also beneficial.

I think you underestimate what people can achieve when they try to get good at it.

And I think you have a warped sense of what people should prioritize getting good at.

performing the JC shine infinite for ANY length of time is far more difficult.

JC Shine infinite requires more inputs (by one per iteration) but has a larger margin of error. Nobody ever said you had to JC Shine infinite at the maximum possible speed, and you can in fact perform it at the same rate you would a waveshine infinite, only without the wavedash.

I think this community under-estimates what they can do when they actually practice, and part of it is the game fosters this type of apathy. I dunno, maybe this community needs a silent wolf equivalent to break them out of this technical apathy.

Spoiler

Apathy is death

I think it's more important to practice something that helps you win rather than something that temporarily extends your ability to not lose. Reactive defensive techniques are great and all, but when the conditions of success are "perform until the game ends" and the reward for success is not "you win the game" but rather "you don't lose the game," I'm pretty sure there's quite a few more options with a better work/risk-to-reward ratio to work toward.


The problem is that you're not commenting based on the top of the metagame, you're commenting based on the theoretical limits of human execution, while assuming that it is somehow identical to the top of the metagame. Seriously, when considering how to counter one strategy, the much more common approach is to find the solution with least overhead - pick Fox and hold Down+B.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This is great LMAO.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@adumb: It's humanly impossibly to PS every single stinking laser that Fox throws at you, with all of the various different timings, for 8 minutes. He can easily condition you to one timing, and then mix it up suddenly. You can't keep up that amount of reaction time that long. You won't make it. Drop the argument already. It's making you look silly.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The funny part is, the Fox never has to stop laser camping until you've proved that it's not only useless, but detrimental. This won't happen, of course, because he can do one of two things every time.

Then two melee characters will just stand there right? You never see a marth and a metagame walking forward and starting a spacing and zoning battle right?

When laser camping is no different effectively from standing there, why wouldn't fox chose an option that might win him the match?

Of course, if he doesn't feel like it, I can just powershield walk a bit to the point where I can punish him for particular patterns, which forces him to start mixing it up (if you wanna call that approaching, fine, but it doesn't commit me to anything, only establishes the spacing/zoning game, which is why it's important to make that distinction).


And then there's when the opponent is at a percent/stock lead, what happens then? Even if your opponent isn't perfect, getting a laser in every 30 seconds doesn't exactly help you unless it's really close, you're just letting your chance of winning slip away.

1. Vary the timing, because the moment you perform an empty shield/unshield in expectation of a laser that doesn't happen, you're open enough to get hit by a laser. If you get hit by a laser, you have to approach eventually, which means Fox can laser camp as normal.

You know about any variances in the pattern long before the laser actually hits you.

2. Standing lasers, because if your intent is to powershield then you have exactly zero free frames of action whatsoever before powershielding the next (except for jumping immediately after a powershield, since that doesn't invoke the unshield animation; too bad doing this kind of eliminates the possibility of powershielding any more lasers, unless you land on a platform), forcing a stalemate in which only you can lose out on.

You standing laser and I'll feel free to barrel right through the lasers and attack.


Powershielding every laser isn't the objective in and of itself, it's just a means to an end, preventing fox from forcing an approach so instead either he will approach, or you will approach when he makes a punishable mistake.

Not only that, but even if the Fox player were to for whatever reason decide not to play the game that he can at worst lose nothing, he can still choose not to approach while playing your aforementioned spacing/zoning game, at which point your loss will be the moment you leave the ground and discard the very possibility of powershielding a laser.

Melee characters at worst lose nothing from standing still, that is, until their opponent comes at them. By that line of reasoning, they should both wait 8 minutes.


And it's not like you can't powershield walk to a position where continuing to laser is in and of itself dangerious (aka, spacing and zoning game).




I guess that's the point here, when fox is just laser camping, either player can initiate it, if you can powershield consistently, it's really no different then two melee characters facing off.

And I think you have a warped sense of what people should prioritize getting good at.

I'm not suggesting it's top priority, what I am suggesting that it

JC Shine infinite requires more inputs (by one per iteration) but has a larger margin of error. Nobody ever said you had to JC Shine infinite at the maximum possible speed, and you can in fact perform it at the same rate you would a waveshine infinite, only without the wavedash.

I'm suggesting at top speeds.

I think it's more important to practice something that helps you win rather than something that temporarily extends your ability to not lose. Reactive defensive techniques are great and all, but when the conditions of success are "perform until the game ends" and the reward for success is not "you win the game" but rather "you don't lose the game," I'm pretty sure there's quite a few more options with a better work/risk-to-reward ratio to work toward.

I'm not suggesting it's top priority. My intent on this is as a last resort, "I've exhausted everything else in the MU.

@adumb: It's humanly impossibly to PS every single stinking laser that Fox throws at you, with all of the various different timings, for 8 minutes. He can easily condition you to one timing, and then mix it up suddenly. You can't keep up that amount of reaction time that long. You won't make it. Drop the argument already. It's making you look silly.

The thing is, you get plenty of lead-time when he mixes up the timing, you should know, and adapt.


While I'm not suggesting it's your first resort, suggesting that it's not an option is simply not true.


And frankly, while it is possible, the larger concern is when you have the lead, percent too, but especially stock.


If you've got a 50% lead or a stock lead, with 3 minutes left to go, a laser every 15 seconds actually getting through doesn't help fox. When it's the beginning of the match it matters sure, but in the beginning of the match I'm gonna assume that the optimum use of reliable powershielding is to get close enough that you can punish him for being predictable and spacing/zoning game comes into play anyway.



Actually using it for 8 minutes, while possible, was taking what I was saying to an extreme beyond what I had intended.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm not suggesting it's top priority. My intent on this is as a last resort, "I've exhausted everything else in the MU.

Also, people need to just powershield fox's lasers.

Yeah, okay. Next time be sure to mention that the only idea you throw out there for the matchup is a "last resort" sort of thing and I'll file it with all the other impractical "last resort" things instead of wondering why you're talking about a solution that's way out there like it ought to be second nature.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Adum do you have vids of you PS everything like this? I could understand you say PS or walk to shield blah blah blah. But what you're suggesting is highly impractically and unless you're doing it I don't see how or why you're making these claims.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If it's "last resort", you've already been hit and are behind in %.

I repeat: IT IS HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DO WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING. IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT IN "THEORY" YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE EACH LASER IN TIME, YOUR BODY CAN NOT KEEP UP THAT AMOUNT OF PRECISION REFLEXES FOR THAT LONG.

You have basically no frames for margin of error, and Fox can easily close the gap so it's just outside of ZSS's striking range, and do all of his laser tricks there. Once he changes up the pattern, you will get hit. Why? Your brain has found a pattern, and is sticking to it. It would not be able to recognize the change in pattern quickly enough. Sorry, but humans aren't machines.

You'd be lucky to not get hit for 30 seconds.

 

[Zankoku]

It's not stupidly difficult to powershield to a pattern for like, 15 seconds. Or half a minute, even. I don't see much use behind doing so against something with no foreseeable end, though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

For 30 seconds, against a Rox like Rookie?

I'm sorry, I've seen enough videos to know that won't happen outside of once in a blue moon.

The lasers are too fast, Fox can mix it up too much, and can position himself too well. Wolf's laser? Dead easy. Could likely PS for 8 minutes straight. Would be stupid, but doable. Falco's? Eh...not nearly as long, but better then you would against Fox. His lasers are slower, particularly on the ground, which gets rid of some of his options.

 

[Zankoku]

I said to a pattern, not over reaction. I was responding to AL's post when you cut in by the time I hit Reply :<

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah, okay. Next time be sure to mention that the only idea you throw out there for the matchup is a "last resort" sort of thing and I'll file it with all the other impractical "last resort" things instead of wondering why you're talking about a solution that's way out there like it ought to be second nature.

That quote was from the MU prospective, there are a lot of things that can be done in a number of MUs that most people simply don't do, either because it's difficult or because there's simply too many tricks to know everything for everyone.


But the fact that it's rarely done doesn't make the MU any different.

Adum do you have vids of you PS everything like this? I could understand you say PS or walk to shield blah blah blah. But what you're suggesting is highly impractically and unless you're doing it I don't see how or why you're making these claims.

Still trying to get it down, can only do it for short bursts atm.

If it's "last resort", you've already been hit and are behind in %.

I'm saying LEARNING IT is a last resort.


In other words, "I've got the best fox player in the world in every one of my locals, I need an edge".

Extreme case, granted, but learning, but in cases where you need every advantage against fox, you do it.

I repeat: IT IS HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DO WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING. IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT IN "THEORY" YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE EACH LASER IN TIME, YOUR BODY CAN NOT KEEP UP THAT AMOUNT OF PRECISION REFLEXES FOR THAT LONG.

You have basically no frames for margin of error, and Fox can easily close the gap so it's just outside of ZSS's striking range, and do all of his laser tricks there. Once he changes up the pattern, you will get hit. Why? Your brain has found a pattern, and is sticking to it. It would not be able to recognize the change in pattern quickly enough. Sorry, but humans aren't machines.

You'd be lucky to not get hit for 30 seconds.

Depends on what you mean by just outside, if you mean just outside as in "just outside of ZSS's hitboxes" then no, I can just walk and punish him for lasering when he gets predictable, his primary lasering when there would be a silient laser, heck, there I can almost punish him for short-hopping. So, no, there it doesn't matter because he's done what I need him to do already and no we can play zoning and spacing games.


If you mean, "just outside of where ZSS can punish him for being predictable, ZSS has a pretty good range, she's got enough lead-time to recognize changes in the pattern from there, but at that point, why would she need to maintain it forever?

PS-> walk forward -> playing spacing and zoning games which was my intention in the first place, again, fox has done the work pretty much entirely for me.



Keep in mind, if I fail, I only get damage 50% of the time, I think I could probably stand to take a few shots to my shield as part of the plan anyway because they do very little shield damage.

It's not stupidly difficult to powershield to a pattern for like, 15 seconds. Or half a minute, even. I don't see much use behind doing so against something with no foreseeable end, though.

Well, the main purpose of this is when you're in a reasonable lead. Take my scenario above, letting a laser through every 15 seconds when you're at a 50 percent lead and 3 minutes to go, that's 12 percent, fox will lose, he has to approach.

 

[phi1ny3]

Main D3, that'll teach you to PS stuff consistently really quick lol.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You're assuming the Fox will be predictable.

Who says he will be?

Well, the main purpose of this is when you're in a reasonable lead. Take my scenario above, letting a laser through every 15 seconds when you're at a 50 percent lead and 3 minutes to go, that's 12 percent, fox will lose, he has to approach

No, because you will be taking more hits then that. You can not keep it up. Not even to that extent.

It simply does not work dude. Fox is the character with the hardest projectile to constantly PS in the game. And if you normal shield a laser, he can very well punish you during the shield drop.

It doesn't work.

 

[Zankoku]

Well, the main purpose of this is when you're in a reasonable lead. Take my scenario above, letting a laser through every 15 seconds when you're at a 50 percent lead and 3 minutes to go, that's 12 percent, fox will lose, he has to approach.

I have a better idea for your situation. Assuming the distance where lasers only deal 1% a hit, just hold R for 5 seconds, then mash down on the control stick until your shield regenerates, and repeat. Spotdodging repeatedly, you'll take only 3% damage every 10 seconds, translating to about 3% every 15 seconds, or 36 damage total. Severely less physically taxing, and exactly as stupid of a solution to such a stupid situation to begin with.

 

[Calzorz]

imo iceys shudnt be 3rd diddy shudnt be 2nd , ally is the only snake is u.s mostly placing top 10 and snake does not have an advantage on marth imo so i agree with snake being around 4th as he gets juggled alot and can be really hard to land at times , if u look at recent tournys most finals are mk vs marth in my opinion i think marth is 2nd or 3rdish his only real bad matchup is mk.. whos isnt? and even then he can do well vs mk most games

 

[Zankoku]

imo iceys shudnt be 3rd diddy shudnt be 2nd , ally is the only snake is u.s mostly placing top 10 and snake does not have an advantage on marth imo so i agree with snake being around 4th as he gets juggled alot and can be really hard to land at times , if u look at recent tournys most finals are mk vs marth in my opinion i think marth is 2nd or 3rdish his only real bad matchup is mk.. whos isnt? and even then he can do well vs mk most games

wat

http://theviashino.com/ssbb/tournaments-2009-9.txt

There hasn't been a Marth in 3rd place or better all month.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You're assuming the Fox will be predictable.

Who says he will be?

If he sticks to just laser camping at the ranges you specified, he is being predictable. At that point, he's A. Backing off (which means I repeat till he's at the edge), or B. switching to zoning/spacing game.

No, because you will be taking more hits then that. You can not keep it up. Not even to that extent.

Why? The projectile gives a very large lead-time before it hits because of the time it takes to come out and because for most characters he needs a good amount of range since it lacks stun.


And IIRC it's not like he can vary the timing of the shots once he's committed to the first shot, all he can do is DI them. It's a flat 9 frames IIRC.

It simply does not work dude. Fox is the character with the hardest projectile to constantly PS in the game.

Pit, he can juke his arrows at the last instant, making it ALWAYS a guessing game.

And if you normal shield a laser, he can very well punish you during the shield drop.

With what?

If it's following lasers in the SL then keep the shield up till they're exhausted.

If it's a normal attack, why's he laser camping anyway, you've got much better responses here on reaction except against lasering at the end of a SH (which is only 1 hit anyway).


If it's a ground laser, that takes a while so I can shield again, but why would I want to, he's left himself open.

I have a better idea for your situation. Assuming the distance where lasers only deal 1% a hit, just hold R for 5 seconds, then mash down on the control stick until your shield regenerates, and repeat. Spotdodging repeatedly, you'll take only 3% damage every 10 seconds, translating to about 3% every 15 seconds, or 36 damage total. Severely less physically taxing, and exactly as stupid of a solution to such a stupid situation to begin with.

What lasering pattern is that assuming?

 

[Zankoku]

What lasering pattern is that assuming?

Standing, firing full blast at once every ten frames.