PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Vs Jigglypuff, I find it best to follow these rules:

-shoot her if she's going low or is low

-SH/AC Bair her if she's jumping 1-2 jumps

-FH Bair her if she's higher than that


Also shinegrabbing her shield is really good.

It's good to remember patience is really helpful here but you can still manipulate puff by threatening with your own Bair during her weave so it's not just sitting there.

I hope this helps =)

 

[Acorn]

So I get shield grabbed a lot when I try to apply pressure.

I've been looking at some frame data (Falco hitboxes, OOS options, Sheild Stun) and from what I can tell shield grabbing Falco shouldn't be possible?

Falco's Nair and Dair have 7 frames of shield stun, which is also is the same number of frames it takes to recover from Nair's landing lag (9 for Dair) assuming you don't miss the l-cancel. Shield grabbing takes 7 frames to execute, and shine takes 1. So I should have 6 frames to get the shine out (4 if Dair was used).

Is this correct? Assuming it is and you are frame perfect, this should even be able to beat Samus' up-b OOS, right?

Then on a related note: What are some good options to follow up a shine on shield? I know shine grab is good, but I'm pretty bad with most grab follow-ups.

 

[TheRealAlbert]

Can I get some insightful advice on what to improve in my play?

These are my sets versus Texas's number 1 player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb2r4PtrE0w&list=UUgRzUKaje7HCATOUT8i482w
ignore the first game pretty much LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFodM88KV_c


Also Falco ditto help would be greatly appreciated, as it is by far my worst match up.

@ Dr Peepee for the Falco ditto help would be the most ideal.

 

[Dakpo]

How do I deal with an opponent who reflects most lasers? If i'm not mistaken, that's what makes falco so strong. I hate to post this, but I'm kinda at a dead end here. I know I have a lot of movement things to work on, but this guys pressure is unreal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z80bJLDq6VM

 

[Bones0]

How do I deal with an opponent who reflects most lasers? If i'm not mistaken, that's what makes falco so strong. I hate to post this, but I'm kinda at a dead end here. I know I have a lot of movement things to work on, but this guys pressure is unreal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z80bJLDq6VM

1. Empty hop to fake a laser. If you are close enough, they will have to shield because they won't have enough time to react to the actual laser.
2. Shoot low lasers. They are generally harder to PS, and you can SH over them if they get reflected.
3. Shoot high lasers. They are generally easier to PS, but you can just run under them if they get reflected.
4. Powershield them back. This is pretty unreliable, but if they are consistently PSing, you can just shield at the right time.


Oh, didn't realize you were playing P:M. It's just way easier to PS in that game, but Sethlon was only crouch-PSing so you definitely could have just kept shooting low lasers. He wasn't really PSing them.

 

[Dakpo]

1. Empty hop to fake a laser. If you are close enough, they will have to shield because they won't have enough time to react to the actual laser.
2. Shoot low lasers. They are generally harder to PS, and you can SH over them if they get reflected.
3. Shoot high lasers. They are generally easier to PS, but you can just run under them if they get reflected.
4. Powershield them back. This is pretty unreliable, but if they are consistently PSing, you can just shield at the right time.


Oh, didn't realize you were playing P:M. It's just way easier to PS in that game, but Sethlon was only crouch-PSing so you definitely could have just kept shooting low lasers. He wasn't really PSing them.

Thanks! So Im pretty new to falco in general, and this is about my 4 week mark with the character. The Pm falco boards are kinda dead. Do you guys mind helping PM Falcos? or is that frowned upon in the melee falco thread?

 

[Bones0]

Thanks! So Im pretty new to falco in general, and this is about my 4 week mark with the character. The Pm falco boards are kinda dead. Do you guys mind helping PM Falcos? or is that frowned upon in the melee falco thread?

I don't think most people would mind, but P:M's physics are pretty different (read: inferior lol) so a lot of stuff is going to be a little different like anything to do with shields or ledges or overall strategies conducive to Melee's smaller-sized stages.

 

[whitemountain123]

@ Dr Peepee

Hey, I've been meaning to ask. At evo, I hardly saw you use dtilt in your match against Fly, but I remember in some of your earlier sets vs icies ( I think in particular vs. chu at zenith 2012 and wobbles at apex 2012 iirc), you used it a lot. Any reason for the change?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I didn't get away with Dtilt well vs Wobbles at EVO 2013 iirc so I wanted to find a more secure way to pressure/separate. I found that spaced Dair/Bair worked VERY well and while not so good at lower percents it was still pretty effective at mid to high percents and more likely safer.

 

[TheRealAlbert]

Well I guess my request for help got ignored.

 

[Splice]

Well I guess my request for help got ignored.

I would like help with the same thing from any of the high level falcos here

I don't really understand the Falco matchup, particularly neutral game.
what are you looking for as a way to get in, how are you playing around lazers and using them yourself?

It appears to me he actually has trouble with lazers because apart from using them himself he is quite slow and you usually can't get anything out of powershielding them infrequently.
How can I abuse Falco's weaknesses with my Falco's strengths and on the other hand how do you not let that happen to yourself?

Also how is comboing Falco different to Fox? His tech roll is longer, so do you guys make any different decisions against a Falco than you would against a Fox in order to deal with this?

There's no Falco matchup discussion in the Matchup thread but maybe it would be a possibility?

 

[Bones0]

Well I guess my request for help got ignored.

The effort you put into your questions is directly reflected in the responses you get.

 

[Acorn]

The effort you put into your questions is directly reflected in the responses you get.

I wish that was true

 

[whitemountain123]

@ TheRealAlbert (and @ Splice )

From a quick look at albert's falco ditto on stadium, the main things I would say are:

—make him respect your defensive options more when he approaches. A big thing about playing falco dittos and against falco in general is staying mobile even when getting hit by lasers. Falco dittos are weird in that falco can sorta counter lasers with his own lasers, but, in general, you should know that you can probably act out of laser stun faster than you think so you should:
---get out of the way (i.e., work on your vertical game to reestablish your footing if the other falco is controlling horizontally).
---hit him out of his approach more (bair or retreating dair or sometimes utilt)

----apply pressure through stage positioning (you hardly maintain center) and your own lasers. IMO solid pressure/aggression is super valuable in this matchup partially since falco doesn't have the same sorts of tools to avoid being locked down as other characters (e.g., peach and puff floats, marth's wd oos and powershield, fox's wd oos and fh threats, etc.). this sort of offensive control i'd argue is a large part of why westballz (esp in his earlier days) and mango excelled in this matchup and pp (who likes to take his time a bit more before approaching) struggled in it

i'm no expert though so take it all for what you will

(and obviously like any matchup vs. falco it'll be that much easier if you can make your punishes more consistent and efficient)

 

[Splice]

^ this is something to think about and hopefully comes out quite helpful.
If someone can answer the questions I asked more specifically that would also be appreciated, thankyou

 

[whitemountain123]

ok more specifically in response to your questions:

what are you looking for as a way to get in, how are you playing around lazers and using them yourself?

i feel like falco dittos are a super strange matchup because it seems to me that the closer range/minute interactions are super emphasized, so there's a lot of little things to learn

iirc from previous questions about the matchup, PP always says one of the most important things it get your laser out in this matchup

that said, this is one matchup in which going to platforms can be particularly good for falco. usually i'd argue that his horizontal control is so powerful and that even though he has dair, this game rewards being under people moreso than the opposite, but, in this case, if the other falco has control, taking to the platforms can be a good way to reset neutral and allow you to regain your footing on the ground when you're ready to come down. it can be a bit tough to chase falco vertically because his FH is absurdly good so be wary of the other falco trying to catch you with their own bair

know that you can act out of lasers faster than you think too

laser grab/laser shine-grab are great tools for approaching. if they're trying to do the same to you, roll or spotdodge or try to jump away

when you're under the other falco, look to get under him with bairs (which will beat his dairs if spaced correctly), and shine-wavelands. when you're below ~40% you can look to jump up and if they dair (which they often will) you'll hit the ground first and can shine them

How can I abuse Falco's weaknesses with my Falco's strengths and on the other hand how do you not let that happen to yourself?

Think about what falco's weaknesses and strengths are...for me some of the things that stick out are his relatively poor horizontal mobility, great vertical mobility, excellent punish game, and ability to be punished super hard. see how this relates to what i've been saying.

Also how is comboing Falco different to Fox? His tech roll is longer, so do you guys make any different decisions against a Falco than you would against a Fox in order to deal with this?

i usually combo them pretty similarly, gotta be a bit more weary of falco's trying to CC nair approaches (they seem to do it more than foxes). i'd guess higher level falcos than myself know some more intricacies here

There's no Falco matchup discussion in the Matchup thread but maybe it would be a possibility?

I'd love this too, but PP's a busy guy and frankly does more than any of the other top top players to help people out already

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

What's the best way to waveshine on a platform to extend a combo? Any tips? I seem to have a lot of trouble putting this into practical use

 

[Bones0]

What's the best way to waveshine on a platform to extend a combo? Any tips? I seem to have a lot of trouble putting this into practical use

You need to be able to immediately evaluate where the optimal ending location of your waveland is. Sometimes you want to get a full waveland to one side. Sometimes you want to waveland in place. Sometimes you need to waveland slightly. You have to take into account your opponent's DI from your shine, how much platform you have to waveland on, and a lot of other factors.

 

[SpiderMad]

when you're under the other falco, look to get under him with bairs (which will beat his dairs if spaced correctly), and shine-wavelands. when you're below ~40% you can look to jump up and if they dair (which they often will) you'll hit the ground first and can shine them

Can't understand this, especially the end part

 

[tauKhan]

I think he means that you are safe if you attack by jumping from under the falco if you are below 40%. This is because if he dairs, it won't knock you down, and it will instead cause you to land and cancel the hitstun. This means that you get frame advantage if you get daired during your jump, and can usually shine your opponent.

 

[SpiderMad]

Wouldn't you have to be at a specific height to get the no knockdown or did you cover this in the message chat?

And did Mango ever say why he always up-airs while recovering?

 

[tauKhan]

Falco's dair causes tumble starting from something like 40% on falco (Don't know exact percent), and if you are below that you ofc won't get knocked down.

So at low% falco's dair pretty much never works vs aerial opponent unless he was shined.

 

[Qual_]

Hello, i would like to have some advices in my play to improve my marth matchup and my falco for overall.

I started playing falco when I discovered netplay, in January. I play mostly (80%) in netplay and 20% offline to train techskill.

I had some troubles to short hop reverse laser consistently, but it was because I wasn't used to offline feels, the next time Ill do a better offline warmup.

Link to the video (The match start at 42:00) (PAL)
It was a small local tournament ( 32 players, with no top players)

I can see some change i need to do to improve, but a more experienced point of view will be appreciated. Thank you !

I dont have long combo, maybe it's related to the PAL dair (increased horizontal knockback) ?
I do too many spotdodge
I do too much close range lasers
Maybe i was a little bit under pressure ( really not used to tournaments) but i did too many smash.
I should delay most of my aerials moves, to avoid shieldgrab
Sometimes i obviously drop verticaly from a platforme to dair my opponent. I guess a better player could punish me everytime i do it.
Too many double jump dair
and more.. :/

 

[SpiderMad]

Falco's dair causes tumble starting from something like 40% on falco (Don't know exact percent), and if you are below that you ofc won't get knocked down.

So at low% falco's dair pretty much never works vs aerial opponent unless he was shined.

Oh, like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8znKwUedVjU#t=100 ? Weird

 

[tauKhan]

Yeah, exactly. It also happened a lot in that match: There's a missed punish attempt by west at 1:22 and another one by axe at 1:27. Though in the second case axe was even shined before the dair and he still landed, which I don't understand.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, exactly. It also happened a lot in that match: There's a missed punish attempt by west at 1:22 and another one by axe at 1:27. Though in the second case axe was even shined before the dair and he still landed, which I don't understand.

He landed, but it wasn't a land cancel. He was in that ground stun animation that always happens during pillar combos pre-knockdown. I'd guess that whether you go into ground stun or land cancel is based on either being in tumble vs. upright or being in stun vs. out of stun. I'd actually like to know which if someone can test this...

 

[Starline]

Does anyone know how I can shine while standing on a platform, without dropping through it, and without crouching first?

If I try to press down+b like I do on the ground, Falco falls below and if I jump out of this shine, it uses my midair jump and I can't go any higher.

Edit: never mind, I figured it out. You can do this by tilting the control stick just barely below center, not low enough to drop through the platform or even do a shield drop, but low enough that it still shines when you press B.

 

[Alexander Duprey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okvdcrS7AP8#t=1872

Lambchops vs Porkchops Grand Finals from last weekend mentor vs pupil

 

[tauKhan]

He landed, but it wasn't a land cancel. He was in that ground stun animation that always happens during pillar combos pre-knockdown. I'd guess that whether you go into ground stun or land cancel is based on either being in tumble vs. upright or being in stun vs. out of stun. I'd actually like to know which if someone can test this...

They were definitely all land cancels. You can tell that by the landing animation and landing clouds that occurred, and of course them being able to act so quickly. There were even two consecutive land cancels at 1:40

Also, whether you go into grounded hitstun or not, I think that being in tumble before the hit is a requirement, but it also has something to do with maybe kb velocity or something. For example, if you do very quick shine dj dair, it almost always land cancels (only exception so far I have seen is bowser at 0% with very staled dair.) Also at 1:28 he lands out of shine dair, when the dair hits almost at the level of platform so he lands quickly and doesn't lose much speed, so I think there might be a kb velocity threshold for landing to occur.

 

[Qual_]

Ok

*********

 

[Bones0]

Does anyone know how I can shine while standing on a platform, without dropping through it, and without crouching first?

If I try to press down+b like I do on the ground, Falco falls below and if I jump out of this shine, it uses my midair jump and I can't go any higher.

Edit: never mind, I figured it out. You can do this by tilting the control stick just barely below center, not low enough to drop through the platform or even do a shield drop, but low enough that it still shines when you press B.

The easier way to do it is to release the stick in the initial shine frames. If you try shining on a platform when hitting an opponent, you may notice it's much easier to not drop through than when you whiff. That is because the hitlag gives you a little extra time to release the stick before it is possible to fall through the platform in shine.

They were definitely all land cancels. You can tell that by the landing animation and landing clouds that occurred, and of course them being able to act so quickly. There were even two consecutive land cancels at 1:40

Also, whether you go into grounded hitstun or not, I think that being in tumble before the hit is a requirement, but it also has something to do with maybe kb velocity or something. For example, if you do very quick shine dj dair, it almost always land cancels (only exception so far I have seen is bowser at 0% with very staled dair.) Also at 1:28 he lands out of shine dair, when the dair hits almost at the level of platform so he lands quickly and doesn't lose much speed, so I think there might be a kb velocity threshold for landing to occur.

I think I was just confused by which dairs you were talking about. I thought the second example you were talking about was when Axe daired West the utilted him (which was DEFINITELY ground stun).

 

[Cold Fusion]

Is anyone willing to critique my terrible Flaoc? I've been having serious issues fighting against Marth. I got wrecked hard in this video. Also just a heads up, every up smash in the video was unitentional. Additionally, my tech skill is lacking, though it has slowly been improving. I drop so many combos because of this. I feel like a big problem I'm having is finishing Marth off, in part because I lack confidence in my edge guards. The guy powershielded a lot of lasers, so I tried mixing it up by firing high lasers, low lasers, empty hops and blanks. Sometimes I woud shine after firing a laser because I was expecting it to be powershielded. I should be up throwing more, except that it feels like I'm going to mess up my follow up attempts. Looking back at the video, I get grabbed... a lot... To top it all off, I am uncertain about DI'ing Marth's combos.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K_CquIQpMhs

In case anyone cares, the player I was fighting is ranked #8 on the AZ PR. However Marth is his secondary, not his main.

 

[Starline]

The easier way to do it is to release the stick in the initial shine frames. If you try shining on a platform when hitting an opponent, you may notice it's much easier to not drop through than when you whiff. That is because the hitlag gives you a little extra time to release the stick before it is possible to fall through the platform in shine.

I can't get this to work. Do you just have to do a really short press for the down input on the control stick?

 

[Bones0]

Is anyone willing to critique my terrible Flaoc? I've been having serious issues fighting against Marth. I got wrecked hard in this video. Also just a heads up, every up smash in the video was unitentional. Additionally, my tech skill is lacking, though it has slowly been improving. I drop so many combos because of this. I feel like a big problem I'm having is finishing Marth off, in part because I lack confidence in my edge guards. The guy powershielded a lot of lasers, so I tried mixing it up by firing high lasers, low lasers, empty hops and blanks. Sometimes I woud shine after firing a laser because I was expecting it to be powershielded. I should be up throwing more, except that it feels like I'm going to mess up my follow up attempts. Looking back at the video, I get grabbed... a lot... To top it all off, I am uncertain about DI'ing Marth's combos.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K_CquIQpMhs

In case anyone cares, the player I was fighting is ranked #8 on the AZ PR. However Marth is his secondary, not his main.

I only watched the first game, but this should be more than enough to work on:

Spoiler

- Don't shine in anticipation of lasers. You are actually at a frame disadvantage when you do because shine has more lag from reflecting than the opponent has from getting hit. You can try to PS it back at them, or just take the laser as you dash away (the dash back input will often make you SDI the laser to give you that extra bit of distancing. In general, you should be shooting low lasers because they require frame perfect PS inputs (also possible to jump them), using high ones and running under them, or empty hopping. If they are really PSing almost every time, empty hopping works well because you will still get them to shield and stop their movement which is the whole point of lasers in the first place.

- Assuming you are the one who counterpicked Pokestadium, I'd advise you not to. It's basically FD but with plats that tend to assist Marth's combos and not help your combos much at all. Most importantly, it gives him tons of space to move around and abuse his speed advantage. DL, FoD, YS, and BF are all better picks imo.

- Uthrow is much better on Marth than fthrow. At low %s, you can just build up damage with uthrow FH fair. At higher percents, you can dair him into tech chase situations or uair/bair to keep him airborne or KO him outright. I would only really fthrow if I grabbed him at the ledge.

- You need to DD WD more in general. Your neutral game looks very stiff and it's making you predictable because when he commits to something (run up grab, dash attack, etc.), by the time he actually gets it out, you aren't far from where you were when he started the action.

- Be careful about coming down on top of Marth with dairs. It should really never work because he can utilt, uair, or simply DD grab you, but if you are going to do it at all try to fade away near the ground so your spacing is more deceptive. Also mix in coming down with lasers if he is too far away horizontally to hit you outright.

- You need to pay attention to your DI. You never survival DI when he uses his finishers (mainly fsmash), and you DI a lot of attacks off stage like uthrow or uair which could have been DIed on stage with the same effectiveness but just being further from the ledge.

- Your SHFFLs are very obvious because you always laser -> SHFFL, and they are extremely slow because you don't FF properly. You also seem to have a habit of SHFFLing with no dashing momentum. If you are going to SHFFL, you need to make sure you are as deep on Marth's shield as possible otherwise you will get shield grabbed simply because your shine doesn't reach far enough. A good way to practice this is try to cross Marth up as often as possible to get in the habit of overshooting your aerials. This is one of the ways smaller stages make the matchup easier. The smaller the stage, the less often he can avoid SHFFLs by moving backwards. You pin him near the ledge sooner and more often, and that's where Falco excels since his speed doesn't matter as much.

- You always fsmash when he LHs on stage. It might work vs. your friend, but it's a bad habit so just get used to lasering has he comes on and pressuring him with DDing, lasers, and the threat of a grab (especially when they always shield after getting on stage).

I can't get this to work. Do you just have to do a really short press for the down input on the control stick?

Idk if you meant short in terms of time or distance, but the stick needs to return to neutral very quickly (I'd assume it's frame 4 that you can begin dropping through since that's also when JCing and reflection start). It doesn't matter how far down you press initially (similar to a short hop input).

 

[Axrz]

Could I get some advice on this set? http://www.twitch.tv/meleeitonme/b/549130542?t=2m18s I'm the white falco.

How do I approach in this matchup? I feel I need to be lasering until I get close enough to actually hit the other falco, but it seems very predictable to when I'm actually going to attack. But if I don't attack immediately, I feel like I'm losing any advantage I had in the first place. Especially against a player as technical as KJH, it's pretty overwhelming to stop myself from jumping on him immediately.

How can I also do more to relieve pressure from myself besides rolling so often? I can tell that it's predictable. Also, is there anything I can do to create more opportunities to start and maintain pressure in this matchup?

 

[T r a n]

Could I get some advice on this set?

How do I approach in this matchup? I feel I need to be lasering until I get close enough to actually hit the other falco, but it seems very predictable to when I'm actually going to attack. But if I don't attack immediately, I feel like I'm losing any advantage I had in the first place. Especially against a player as technical as KJH, it's pretty overwhelming to stop myself from jumping on him immediately.

How can I also do more to relieve pressure from myself besides rolling so often? I can tell that it's predictable. Also, is there anything I can do to create more opportunities to start and maintain pressure in this matchup?

Sup Identity Crisis, haven't played you in a while hope you're doing well.

As far as the falco dittos go, I feel you should try to slow the pace down a little. Your approaches were very predictable as you said, because most of the time you did a few approaching lasers followed by an aerial -> shine. You can easily remedy this by just tossing in a couple retreating lasers and dash dance a little (a la ppmd) to make it more ambiguous. Since you're forcing him to shield with your lasers, why not laser -> grab? You went for shinegrabs(which works against a lot of people), but the shine gives him a cue to roll away from it, so that's why it wasn't working.

One thing I really like to do in falco dittos and with falco in general is to just wavedash back after you shine their shield. Mixing this up with shinegrab is really good, because if they roll or spot dodge, which is what kalindi did a lot, you can cover the roll towards you with a shine to start a combo, the spot dodge with a grab/fsmash, and the roll away with lasers to put him back in shield and reset the situation. If he stays in his shield then you can dash dance or laser grab him. You can also do similar things with a late nair approach on shield, then dash away to bait a reaction out of shield. Remember, you don't have to do shield pressure to apply pressure, you can use the control of your lasers and the implied pressure (what you could do) of your dash dance to threaten your opponent without committing too hard on anything. This lets you stay ambiguous in your approach, while you bait your opponent to commit to something, and your opponent only has so many options to commit to out of shield.

As far as your own rolling goes, it wasn't that bad, you didn't roll (or shield for that matter) that much at all unless you count tech rolls or rolls off knock down. There was only that one roll on the last stock that he kinda read you. If you want to avoid his pressure you might want to practice powershielding as well as learning to shine or wavedash out of shield really well if he hits your shield.

 

[alphabattack]

Can someone critique my gameplay? There is one Fox play in there, and it sort of screwed my later matches up, but overall, I feel I have definitely improved from my earlier states. Also, can someone please tell me to stop jumping into fox's aerials, because I did that a lot when my friend played fox.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXIrz7kYgXZrgIFVPwYma-L1k4bL8K-7R

 

[Crin]

Can someone critique my gameplay? There is one Fox play in there, and it sort of screwed my later matches up, but overall, I feel I have definitely improved from my earlier states. Also, can someone please tell me to stop jumping into fox's aerials, because I did that a lot when my friend played fox.

You should stop jumping into Fox's aerials.

Other than that, I feel like there were times where you would grab -> Bthrow and then not follow up at lower %'s.

You also seemed to have a little trouble (once or twice) deciding which recovery move to use. Maybe small mistakes, but they still apply. You'd sideB when it was clear you weren't actually going to land the sideB because you were too low. You were better off UpBing, even if you recovered high. It's fine to UpB and not sweet spot the ledge. You need to mix up your recovery anyway so you aren't predictable.

Other than those small things, I couldn't really tell what else. I only watched the two games vs your partner's Fox.

 

[Ijuka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmC0Fq11LwY

So some protips? My falco dittos in general are pretty crappy. First match was terrible but you can give advice for that as well although if you only choose to give advice for one match I'd prefer it to be match #3. I seem to always have a lot of trouble with the neutralgame, any pointers to help with that?

 

[Splice]

Hey guys I posted some videos in the Falco vid thread, but I guess people look at this more?
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-falco-video-thread.168076/page-8#post-17231755

Basically looking for advice on what I'm doing wrong and right in the Peach matchup, and a bit of analysis on some spacies matchups (why did I win on certain stages but not others)
I noticed myself that particularly my ledge game like edgedrop-DJ-Bairs are quite poor form and I can't deal with DoubleLedgehop lazers (how do these work in depth? What counters them and based on where the opponent is standing when should you always do them and when should you never do them ?)