PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Zhea]

So something really funny happened last night when I monkeying around with the 20XX pack. I was doing some SDI Practice with fox's drill->grab->upair macro as falco. After reloading the state I walked over to him, he drilled me twice and freeze glitched me. I'm pretty sure it has to do with the load and save states, but it was amusing.

 

[Bones0]

Wow, why are there so many people asking for critiques all of the sudden. lol I'll try and do my part and go through at least 1 game per person, but it might be a while.

I recently switched from a sheik main to falco, and naturally I am trying to become better. I was wondering if anyone could offer and advice of how to waveshine, because my fingers often feel jumbled and I did not really find any tutorials explaining any techniques. Any other tips or tricks would be awesome.

A good tip for learning tech skill (or anything, really) is to break it down into steps. A waveshine is simply just a shine and a wavedash, or even more broken down, a shine, a jump, and an airdodge. Trying to put all those pieces together on your first try is like trying to solve a Rubix cube in 10 turns on your first try. Instead, practice each segment until you feel comfortable with it and then add the next segment. Practice jump cancelling your shine for 10 minutes; just shine then full hop. Once you are doing it easily, practice wavedashing for 10 minutes. Once you get the hang of that, start shining and wavedashing after. If you are messing up the jump cancel, go back and practice that part. If you are messing up the wavedash, go back and practice that.

 

[Hawt Salsa]

when I shine someone and turn around, what's the easiest way NOT to get stuck from jumping? How do I (for example) Shine-turnaround Bair faster?

 

[mooki]

when I shine someone and turn around, what's the easiest way NOT to get stuck from jumping? How do I (for example) Shine-turnaround Bair faster?

Define "not to get stuck from jumping".

 

[Hawt Salsa]

Define "not to get stuck from jumping".

jumping within the 3 turnaround frames and not jumping.

 

[KP17]

do it after the third frame you dumb idiot

 

[JDavisR (NIX)]

do it after the third frame you dumb idiot

That was kinda harsh

 

[Hawt Salsa]

do it after the third frame you dumb idiot

well, excuse me for having a legitimate question, asshole.

Does this just mean that people who do it extremely fast (ie: westballz) just do it near frame perfect?

edit: I forgot to call you an asshole.

 

[mooki]

do it after the third frame you dumb idiot

This made me giggle hella hard.

well, excuse me for having a legitimate question, *******.

Does this just mean that people who do it extremely fast (ie: westballz) just do it near frame perfect?

edit: I forgot to call you an *******.

Yes, because it's impossible to do a jump when you can't (the turn around), people do it when you can. If it looks really fast then it's probably done really close to when you first can do it.

 

[tauKhan]

when I shine someone and turn around, what's the easiest way NOT to get stuck from jumping? How do I (for example) Shine-turnaround Bair faster?

You just have to learn the timing to do it. It's actually surprisingly slow. I personally like jumping with control stick, because it buffers the jump in case you press it during turnaround. You still got to time the bair though.

I don't know whether you know this already, but I'll do a breakdown anyway, because I had hard time figuring this frame data out from smashboards. You can only jump or turn after shine on frame 4. A turn disables jump for 3 frames as you wrote. Then if you hit an opponent with shine you get 5 frames of hitlag.

So if you don't hit with the shine, you can turn on frame 4 (counting shine hitbox frame as frame 1), jump on 7 and bair on frame 8 (if you did aerial shine). If you hit the opponent and turn, you can jump on frame 11 and bair on frame 12.

Edit: Actually I found out a very consistent way to do the shine turnaround jump: Jump with controlstick buffers for 4 frames and turn prioritizes over jump, so you can do a turnaround and jump with a single control stick input by pressing up and slightly to side. You still need to account for hitlag, but that's true for any method I have thought of.

 

[Hawt Salsa]

You just have to learn the timing to do it. It's actually surprisingly slow. I personally like jumping with control stick, because it buffers the jump in case you press it during turnaround. You still got to time the bair though.

I don't know whether you know this already, but I'll do a breakdown anyway, because I had hard time figuring this frame data out from smashboards. You can only jump or turn after shine on frame 4. A turn disables jump for 3 frames as you wrote. Then if you hit an opponent with shine you get 5 frames of hitlag.

So if you don't hit with the shine, you can turn on frame 4 (counting shine hitbox frame as frame 1), jump on 7 and bair on frame 8 (if you did aerial shine). If you hit the opponent and turn, you can jump on frame 11 and bair on frame 12.

Edit: Actually I found out a very consistent way to do the shine turnaround jump: Jump with controlstick buffers for 4 frames and turn prioritizes over jump, so you can do a turnaround and jump with a single control stick input by pressing up and slightly to side. You still need to account for hitlag, but that's true for any method I have thought of.

This was EXTREMELY helpful. I'm a somewhat technical fox main going to falco, so I needed help with things like this. Thank you!

 

[alphabattack]

Can someone critique my falco play? It would be greatly appreciated! Sorry for the poor quality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lareIlG0SHU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Err_kfvHjZk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqEVIEBADdw

 

[Russ The Love Muss]

Not sure if anyone else has come across this glitch in the 20xx pack but I was practicing drill shines on a fox that was shield grabbing and when I tried to shine I disappeared and died. Has happened to me a couple times and not sure exactly was causing it but it's strange

 

[Bones0]

Not sure if anyone else has come across this glitch in the 20xx pack but I was practicing drill shines on a fox that was shield grabbing and when I tried to shine I disappeared and died. Has happened to me a couple times and not sure exactly was causing it but it's strange

Post it in the hack pack thread so they can troubleshoot.

 

[noobird]

so sad yet so happy that pp went so much marth at mlg. so beautiful, but missed that bird

 

[Dr Peepee]

he will come back better for evo

 

[Red Rice]

he will come back better for evo

What was your mindset, going Marth for some of the matches?

 

[Dr Peepee]

well falco played awfully and marth did what he was supposed to do, which was be there for when falco is booty lol

also leffen doesn't like marth so that was a bit of psychological warfare lol

 

[Mogwai]

Do you have trouble swapping back to Falco when you go Marf? Seemed like the Marth pick was planned vs. Leffen, but then forced vs. M2K because your bird was playing poorly.

 

[S.D]

Quick CC question.
What is the viability of low % CC shines to interrupt fox/falco nair/dair/bair approaches (before they can shine)?
And up to what % does it work.
Thanks boards.

 

[Mogwai]

both dairs are super effective vs. CC, but CCing nair/bair approaches at low %s is quite good, as it gives you a shine.

 

[S.D]

both dairs are super effective vs. CC, but CCing nair/bair approaches at low %s is quite good, as it gives you a shine.

Ty Mogwai. So it's guaranteed? Also do you know roughly what % it stops working at?

 

[Mogwai]

I do it until roughly 20% on Nair approaches, but it depends a bit on their trajectory a bit as to whether the shine will hit (if they're trying to go deep on your shield to cross you up, you're more likely to be close enough to shine). I don't recall the exact % at which you'll start to fall down to Nair when CCing, so I'll leave that up to Bones or someone else who know that stuff.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Do you have trouble swapping back to Falco when you go Marf? Seemed like the Marth pick was planned vs. Leffen, but then forced vs. M2K because your bird was playing poorly.

yeah this was not my original intention but it is the purpose of marth. i thought falco playing badly could still beat m2k but it was some next level bad lol.

the pick was leffen was the only planned pick but that was because of what i learned when we played in pools. i got more confidence in my marth for that tourney as a result of the leffen set.

 

[Red Rice]

yeah this was not my original intention but it is the purpose of marth. i thought falco playing badly could still beat m2k but it was some next level bad lol.

the pick was leffen was the only planned pick but that was because of what i learned when we played in pools. i got more confidence in my marth for that tourney as a result of the leffen set.

It's odd to hear you say that your falco was playing poorly. In my mind, you have one of the most consistent Falco's. Would you say that you struggle with consistency?

 

[Dr Peepee]

i am consistent in my theory and gameplan. i am a bit inconsistent in terms of my emotional fortitude leading up to some events. i aim to do a lot of work about that though so just look for the consistency =)

 

[Red Rice]

Definitely will haha. Will you be making appearances at CEO/EVO?

 

[Dr Peepee]

evo definitely, ceo definitely not. i need time to rest and get myself into mental shape

 

[Red Rice]

Falco/spacie related question:

How can I further improve my game once I'm already consistent with the tech. People can only buffer roll my shield pressure, so I try to mix up shine grabs. I can shorten consistently. etc etc. I guess my movement could always use some work, especially against marth

I feel like I need to focus more on the mental game now/conditioning my opponent

 

[tauKhan]

Ty Mogwai. So it's guaranteed? Also do you know roughly what % it stops working at?

No. Because the nairs are sakurai angled, if you are crouching, strong nair gives frame advantage to fox/falco at 0%, and fox weak nair shine is very hard to beat, and at least at 23% it's fa for fox. At low percents it's better to try to trade with a move, for example with utilt while asding down.

 

[Bones0]

Hey, I've been playing some Falco lately. Anybody want to give me some critique?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHA_wtIVIBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HqGBftanuE

[collapse="Game 1: Yoshi's Story"]0:05 - You should have daired into that utilt instead of bairing.
0:10 - When you dair people before knockdown percents, especially when they are airborne, you have to pay attention to their SDI and your drift. If they aren't within range of shine, you should utilt or in situations where they have little to no lag, grab.
0:23 - That dsmash wouldn't have killed, especially from the top plat. You should have utilted and followed up with a dair to keep the combo going.
0:27 - If you grab the ledge a bit sooner there you could have baired him.
0:40 - You give up stage control for no reason.
0:48 - A better Marth will not simply stand under the plat and utilt randomly. Most Marths and other characters in general will DD grab bad drop through attacks like that.
0:50 - When you steal the ledge from Marth's DJ like that, LHing just lets him grab it which was exactly what he wanted. Know how much invul you have, and if you have enough, just wait for him to dip below the ledge so he can no longer grab it before getting off. You can ledgestand or even ledge attack (useful if they are higher up or airdodging). If he side-Bs (most Marths will), he can't grab the ledge until the move ends so you are able to shine bair at that point.
0:58 - Another bad FF aerial from up high.
1:07 - He could have shield grabbed that laser. You can't laser that close, but especially can't dash in after he shields it.
1:10 - Fthrowing him onto the ledge is fairly useless. Uthrow usually gives you a solid followup at that %.
1:12 - Starting from the DA, this combo was really good. It's hard to tell 'cause of YouTube, but I think you stole his jump with that utilt, so I probably would have opted for a bair at the peak because then you can just FH bair him one more time as he drifts back to the stage. It's a judgement call, so the dair was fine really (and the right decision if he still had his jump). As soon as you realize he's teching on the side plat, you have to be prepared for the 3 options. You need 3 preplanned punishes depending on if they TIP/missed tech, techroll left, or techroll right. Dsmash is good for TIP/missed tech because it's quick, but you usually get better KB with fsmash so the extra lag on techrolls should mean that's your goto option. When they techroll towards the center, fsmash still might not be strong enough to KO/set up an edgeguard, so in those scenarios you should utilt/dair to keep the combo going or you can do some slightly jankier stuff like grab -> bthrow towards ledge and possibly followup with a dair. Regardless of what you do, simply dsmashing all of their options just because it's easier is a really bad habit because it won't cut it at higher levels.
1:18 - Another bad FF aerial from up high.
1:20 - I like to shine bair when I drop down like that because sometimes the shine will catch them when the rising bair will just rarely miss. You don't really have anything to lose by adding that in there. The dair wasn't really the best idea in the first place because even if he gets hit, he could very likely get sent into the stage for a tech.
1:40 - Another bad FF aerial from up high.
1:43 - You're really lucky that poked because otherwise it was a super early aerial and you would've been shield grabbed. The runoff was also really risky because if the Marth DJ fairs you, it could be your stock. A safer option would be to run to the edge and CC. If he spaces himself poorly like the Marth you were playing does, you can just dsmash him, and if he tries to fair you and misspaces it, you can CC dsmash it. If he spaces a fair perfectly or sweetspots the ledge (most good Marths will do this) at least you aren't off stage and can retreat back to the center to maintain stage control.
1:50 - You tried to roll in which isn't an awful idea when you're trapped at the ledge like that, but most people will just grab it on reaction, especially a Marth who just dtilted your shield (they are looking for those kneejerk reactions). FH OoS tends to feel safer for me. Worst case scenario he tipper fairs you and you go straight up, and that option is pretty risky for Marth because if he is wrong about the jump he's just fairing your shield and you can WD onto the ledge, attack OoS, etc. No matter what you do, be ready to DI. That dtilt sent you off at way too low of an angle and restricted you to a single side-B height vs. up-B mixup. If you can get even slightly above the ledge with your DJ, they have to worry about high side-Bs they can't dtilt or even jab, and you also open up the ability to up-B with the traditional 3 angles (ledge, at the opponent, and high, though this isn't very good vs. Marth specifically).
2:08 - Marth is only at 23%, so bair is a pretty useless move. He just ASDIed down and slid off. Your goal in this situation should be to get a combo going. The textbook option is shine WL, and for a more obscure mixup, you can FH dair (I prefer this at %s where dair -> dair is a threat, but it really isn't until mid %s).
2:23 - Well that's convenient. You did the dair I described from the last situation, and it was the perfect decision, you just did it a little early. You can optimize your execution a little by doing a SH instant DJ dair because it allows you to land a tad sooner. That will help if he had techrolled right, for example. After the combo gets dropped, you just give up stage control again. Even though he's not in stun, you still have him pinned at the ledge, and he even does a bad utilt you could have reacted to and punished.
2:30 - A slew of bad habits are on display here. You DA (which was a bad idea in the first place because Marth is so fast he can always outrun it), and then you spot dodge. Immediately following this, you whiff a shield grab and do another spot dodge. It can be a hard habit to break, and sometimes you should be dodging, but try to default to movement after situations like those.
2:35 - The platform situation discussed earlier comes up again. You just dsmash again instead of reacting with a utilt/shine.[/collapse]

I'll do L33thal next 'cause I think everyone else got a critique from someone else already.

 

[Purpletuce]

Thank you very much for the feedback, is there any more strategy-oriented problems you noticed?

 

[Bones0]

Thank you very much for the feedback, is there any more strategy-oriented problems you noticed?

It was hard to say much about your overall strategy since it was obviously working vs. the opponent. *shrug*

 

[alphabattack]

So! I went to my first tournament. And got bodied. To be expected, but I didn't lose to everyone! Here are the matches in the twitch archives. Thanks! They're from Mass Madness 13a.

http://www.twitch.tv/mattdotzeb/b/542656280

At 2:33:00 (They got the tags wrong. I am the Falco. And it's Alphabattack)

At 2:45:37 (This time they got it. Also, this was probably my worst match. I played fine for my skill level, but damn zoso is good)

At 2:54:30 (MY FIRST TOURNAMENT WIN! I got the set, but damn it was stressful! So much fun though!)

My last match was at 3:18:15 (Also won this one! Didn't play as well as game 3 with mizuki, but you can't win them all. But apparently I can lose them all)

My favorite moment from my matches, even though I lost was at 3:01:25, when I got a laser reset.

All in all, I had a ton of fun. It's hard being a beginner in this game, and it didn't help being shown how much of a beginner I am. Sometimes I feel like I put all this work in, and it's fruitless. I read these forums, I watch the videos, it's just hard to improve and I'm not sure what I can do to get better. I practice hours each day, but for some reason, I never get any better. I'm trying to stay positive and motivated though! I did, despite my crushing defeats, have a ton of fun. It was nice talking to people, made some new friends, and overall it was 100% worth it. If people have any critiques, or any tips for getting better, I have probably heard them all, but it would be nice to hear them again. Thanks! Also wanted to send a quick shoutout to whoever the commentator was during my set with Mizuki. I could hear him talking, and the things he said about my gameplay really helped me feel confident and helped me clutch it out!

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

First of all, I've only watched your set with Zoso and your first game against Mizuki, and I'm sitting here wondering if that is the same Alphabattack that I saw against Zoso. You played so much better against Zoso than you did Mizuki (for game one at least). I'll give you a couple easy things that you can fix.

1) Don't only use Side B to recover. I made this mistake recently as I am also relatively new to the smash scene, but if you do it every single time, then it is going to get read every single time by better players. Mix it up, use up B to recover too. Also, DI so that you can recover from high instead of at stage level.

2) Mix up your ledge options. Learn to ledge-dash and getup attack and other options are very useful also. Try to use all of them so that you can keep your opponent guessing.

3) Don't approach after one laser and don't just try and aerial your way in. Your approaches were almost always dairs and nairs. Also, watch the way you come down from platforms, because just throwing out a dair, hoping for it to hit against a moving opponent is just asking to get punished.

 

[Bones0]

Melee is definitely hard on beginners, especially when you're playing a character as fragile and technically demanding as Falco. If you have really been practicing every day for at least an hour, your tech skill should probably be better. You should make your practice more focused because you are still missing fluency in most of the basic techs. Your SHFFLs aren't too bad (could still tighten up your timings), but you almost didn't DD or WD at all. You were sort of just walking around instead, which really limits what you can do because of how slow it is. When you practice, you should focus solely on one technique and drill it until you can do it perfectly. A lot of people want to just run around the stage or focus on the CPU, but you will just improve a lot faster if you devote all of your attention to one thing at a time. So it will be boring, but do the Name Entry Glitch with Falco on FD and just DD around with the timer on 15 minutes. Try doing short dash lengths, long dash lengths, alternating directions quickly, alternating slowly, and fox trotting. If you honestly sit down and do that for 15 minutes a day, you will have a much more solid grasp on DDing by the end of the week. The same can be said for WDing, WLing onto platforms, and basically anything else you see top players implementing that you don't see yourself doing.

 

[Red Rice]

So! I went to my first tournament. And got bodied. To be expected, but I didn't lose to everyone! Here are the matches in the twitch archives. Thanks! They're from Mass Madness 13a.

Shoot, I was there today lol. How did you do in your pool?

 

[alphabattack]

Shoot, I was there today lol. How did you do in your pool?

Pretty good. Lost to zoso and schminkledorf. Not surprised. Beat mizuki and tigga then lost to a Falcon main who I cant remember. Did not do well. What little skill I had went out the window. But considering I have one approach, not surprised I got wrecked. And people tried to help, but gave not very good advice. One guy was like "you're too easy to hit," which is not very useful, other than to tell me to run away forever.

 

[alphabattack]

First of all, I've only watched your set with Zoso and your first game against Mizuki, and I'm sitting here wondering if that is the same Alphabattack that I saw against Zoso. You played so much better against Zoso than you did Mizuki (for game one at least). I'll give you a couple easy things that you can fix.

1) Don't only use Side B to recover. I made this mistake recently as I am also relatively new to the smash scene, but if you do it every single time, then it is going to get read every single time by better players. Mix it up, use up B to recover too. Also, DI so that you can recover from high instead of at stage level.

2) Mix up your ledge options. Learn to ledge-dash and getup attack and other options are very useful also. Try to use all of them so that you can keep your opponent guessing.

3) Don't approach after one laser and don't just try and aerial your way in. Your approaches were almost always dairs and nairs. Also, watch the way you come down from platforms, because just throwing out a dair, hoping for it to hit against a moving opponent is just asking to get punished.

Alright. I understand 1 and 2 but how else should I approach with respect to 3? I feel like a douche for just shl'ing and camping like a boyscout.

Melee is definitely hard on beginners, especially when you're playing a character as fragile and technically demanding as Falco. If you have really been practicing every day for at least an hour, your tech skill should probably be better. You should make your practice more focused because you are still missing fluency in most of the basic techs. Your SHFFLs aren't too bad (could still tighten up your timings), but you almost didn't DD or WD at all. You were sort of just walking around instead, which really limits what you can do because of how slow it is. When you practice, you should focus solely on one technique and drill it until you can do it perfectly. A lot of people want to just run around the stage or focus on the CPU, but you will just improve a lot faster if you devote all of your attention to one thing at a time. So it will be boring, but do the Name Entry Glitch with Falco on FD and just DD around with the timer on 15 minutes. Try doing short dash lengths, long dash lengths, alternating directions quickly, alternating slowly, and fox trotting. If you honestly sit down and do that for 15 minutes a day, you will have a much more solid grasp on DDing by the end of the week. The same can be said for WDing, WLing onto platforms, and basically anything else you see top players implementing that you don't see yourself doing.

Considering the type of person I am, I'll probably set the timer to 4 hours. And I do mixup my training with the single player glitch and just try to move fluidly around battlefield, but it's difficult. And not gonna lie, that tournament was not inspiring me to keep playing. But that's where dedication comes in!

 

[Red Rice]

Where are you from? I made it out of pools and then lost to Tian and Hart in bracket