PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[mooki]

Yea, maybe shield the hit and shine out of shield. Any other thoughts would be great as well.

Edit: Also, any other thoughts/constructive criticism on my play in that video would be great. Thanks!

 

[OninO]

@ mooki , I watched the part you talked about, I don't think you ran far enough, as in you never left Marth's effective range. For dash dance stuff to work against Marth you often have to do the longest possible dash. When he's that close to you to begin with, I'm not even sure it's possible for Falco to dash far enough away.

There was another moment I noticed, right at the end that got me thinking. Marth was at 56%, you read the roll perfectly (he was definitely autopiloting to roll into you like that), but you went for a super hard punish by forward smashing. Whether or not that would have hit, at that percentage and in that direction I don't think he would have ended up in a really bad situation. I'm thinking maybe it would have been better to punish the roll with up-tilt, jab->grab or down-smash if you wanted to try push him back off stage. Shine is probably really good as well.

 

[OninO]

@ mooki , I watched the part you talked about, I don't think you ran far enough, as in you never left Marth's effective range. For dash dance stuff to work against Marth you often have to do the longest possible dash. When he's that close to you to begin with, I'm not even sure it's possible for Falco to dash far enough away.

There was another moment I noticed, right at the end that got me thinking. Marth was at 56%, you read the roll perfectly (he was definitely autopiloting to roll into you like that), but you went for a super hard punish by forward smashing. Whether or not that would have hit, at that percentage and in that direction I don't think he would have ended up in a really bad situation. I'm thinking maybe it would have been better to punish the roll with up-tilt, jab->grab or down-smash if you wanted to try push him back off stage. Shine is probably really good as well.

 

[T r a n]

Hey guys. I played a couple games today that I recorded and I had a question about a certain situation. At 3:57 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ofpxUgvHoQw#t=236, Marth jumps at me, I run away and run back to try to hit his jump with a shuffle nair, but I get naired in the face by him. I don't really know what to do against that know. Should I have just kept running out of the full range of the short hop and try to punish when he lands? Would I be able to maybe run away, and wavedash the rest of the distance needed to set up for an up-tilt where he would land? I feel like that wouldn't work because his sword during a nair would reach to where I'd have to be after the wavedash to set up for an up-tilt. I feel like there's got to be something I can do to punish Marth when I see him coming at me like that, but right now I'm at a lose. All I can think of that I could have done better than what I did in the video is to have just kept running so I wouldn't have gotten hit, but then I would have given up stage and not have gotten a punish.

Thanks for any help you guys can give me.

@ Bones0 , @ Dr Peepee

Marth's Latest nair if done correctly is +0 on shield (if you chose to shield instead of dash dance around nair), so your best option after second hit nair is probably to spot dodge (2 frames), roll (4 frames), or shine (6 frames if perfect). Technically there is a 4 frame window for you to do something between Marth's nair's 2 hits, so you could buffer a roll or spot dodge. Either way, the best thing you could probably do is avoid that hit by avoiding that situation all together

 

[T r a n]

Also, sorry for the double post, but what is the reason for falco's to be doing fair out of shield lately? Such as westballz vs. laudandus at Low Tier City 2. I'm curious as to why, since it's frame 11 out of shield.

 

[Oskurito]

I'm guessing because of the range of the aerial, other aerials don't have the same reach.

 

[Bones0]

Hey guys. I played a couple games today that I recorded and I had a question about a certain situation. At 3:57 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ofpxUgvHoQw#t=236, Marth jumps at me, I run away and run back to try to hit his jump with a shuffle nair, but I get naired in the face by him. I don't really know what to do against that know. Should I have just kept running out of the full range of the short hop and try to punish when he lands? Would I be able to maybe run away, and wavedash the rest of the distance needed to set up for an up-tilt where he would land? I feel like that wouldn't work because his sword during a nair would reach to where I'd have to be after the wavedash to set up for an up-tilt. I feel like there's got to be something I can do to punish Marth when I see him coming at me like that, but right now I'm at a lose. All I can think of that I could have done better than what I did in the video is to have just kept running so I wouldn't have gotten hit, but then I would have given up stage and not have gotten a punish.

Thanks for any help you guys can give me.

@ Bones0 , @ Dr Peepee

xman is definitely correct in that you could have shielded once you react to the nair. It is especially good to shield aerials like that when they are drifting forward because if Marth does a fair or nair from a stand, it's usually pretty easy for him to space it safely. When they have forward momentum, you can dash towards them and shield it earlier to give you a larger OoS punish window as well as to ensure you are close enough to shine, grab, usmash, or aerial.

You also could have just dashed backwards again. Practice utilizing "fox trots", where you dash in the same direction multiple times without going into a full run. Another helpful piece of advice is Falco's WD tends to be faster than dashing. If you had done a WD in that situation, you retain your ability to shield by the time he reaches you, but you also are able to dash backwards for extra distance to avoid the nair entirely. WD's main weakness as a tool for movement is that you have to spend 5 frames in jumpsquat before you even start moving. If you use up those stationary frames in the beginning of a movement sequence, you seem much more fluid and speedy than if you dash, waste 5 frames in jumpsquat, then slide from the airdodge. Next time you play, try WDing when initiating movement and saving your dash for fine tuning that spacing after you are in the general area you want to be.

Example

After I fthrow DP to the ledge, I wavedash towards it to make my initial movement. Once I realize he is going to DJ aerial because I'm in that space, I am free to dash away immediately. Had I dashed towards the ledge first, I could start to wavedash when he DJs, but I probably wouldn't have gotten out of the way in time.

 

[WestBallz]

Ive been doing fair OOS with falco and approaches because it beats characters that like to stay in the air such as marth and sheik. Its a really good anti air as well as combo starter. If u also time the fast fall right its a good sheild pressure to

 

[L33thal]

How do you guys waveland onto platform:
(1) simple waveland
(2) DJ waveland
(3) shine waveland?

Imo, shine wavelands are the easiest to do and turn out the smoothest. Simple wavelands are faster though and DJ wavelands are in-between. Is this right?

 

[xman]

theres not much difference between sj and dj wavelands only thing is that i'd rather just single jump waveland in case you get knock off stage in transition you'll have your double jump to come back im already used to single jump wavelanding anyways. most of the time if im approaching a character from under i usually shine waveland, if I just want to go onto a platform i single jump

 

[mooki]

xman is definitely correct in that you could have shielded once you react to the nair. It is especially good to shield aerials like that when they are drifting forward because if Marth does a fair or nair from a stand, it's usually pretty easy for him to space it safely. When they have forward momentum, you can dash towards them and shield it earlier to give you a larger OoS punish window as well as to ensure you are close enough to shine, grab, usmash, or aerial.

You also could have just dashed backwards again. Practice utilizing "fox trots", where you dash in the same direction multiple times without going into a full run. Another helpful piece of advice is Falco's WD tends to be faster than dashing. If you had done a WD in that situation, you retain your ability to shield by the time he reaches you, but you also are able to dash backwards for extra distance to avoid the nair entirely. WD's main weakness as a tool for movement is that you have to spend 5 frames in jumpsquat before you even start moving. If you use up those stationary frames in the beginning of a movement sequence, you seem much more fluid and speedy than if you dash, waste 5 frames in jumpsquat, then slide from the airdodge. Next time you play, try WDing when initiating movement and saving your dash for fine tuning that spacing after you are in the general area you want to be.

Example

After I fthrow DP to the ledge, I wavedash towards it to make my initial movement. Once I realize he is going to DJ aerial because I'm in that space, I am free to dash away immediately. Had I dashed towards the ledge first, I could start to wavedash when he DJs, but I probably wouldn't have gotten out of the way in time.

Wow Bones0, thanks a ton for this, and the amazing example. Like really, that example made your explanation top notch. I hadn't even thought about using a wavedash to move my dashdance ranges left or right in the middle of someone else's attack. It seems like WDing into a dashdance (one left and one right) is faster than dashing twice in the same direction and then dashing back. Your advice is great and has really opened my mind.

I'm amazed at how much there is to learn about this game. The only thing is that I don't really know how I could have thought about something like that, which is why I feel so stuck in this game. I feel that I can win sets with the people that I play with, but I still go pretty even with them (sometimes it gets to last stock). I have a strong desire to do nothing less than 4 stock them every game, but I just feel stuck.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing you learned that technique/strategy by studying videos. If that's the case then I feel much better knowing how I can starting learning more and getting better. If you could let me know that'd be great (that is if you even know). Either way, I just remembered this http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-advice-questions-topic.98202/page-768#post-16125074 post of yours, and I'm going to read through it right now.

Also thank you everyone else for advice. All of them gave me an outside view and have been of great help.

How do you guys waveland onto platform:
(1) simple waveland
(2) DJ waveland
(3) shine waveland?

Imo, shine wavelands are the easiest to do and turn out the smoothest. Simple wavelands are faster though and DJ wavelands are in-between. Is this right?

I'm with xman. I use single jump wavelands because I while learning wavelands I could never get the double jump ones to be as consistent as my single ones on side platforms. Now for top platforms, I almost always use double jumps to get up there.

 

[OninO]

Why double jump to top platform, your single jump will carry you high enough to waveland on any competition legal stage. Speed?

 

[mooki]

Why double jump to top platform, your single jump will carry you high enough to waveland on any competition legal stage. Speed?

Yup. Speed and how comfortable the timing is to me.

 

[Shiv.]

Why double jump to top platform, your single jump will carry you high enough to waveland on any competition legal stage. Speed?

It's a tad faster IIRC.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

In a way, full hop is safer in the event your opponent manages hit you during your rise upwards. Falco without 2nd jump utility may as well be dead.

 

[Shiv.]

In a way, full hop is safer in the event your opponent manages hit you during your rise upwards. Falco without 2nd jump utility may as well be dead.

Is it any useful to train DJ wavelands then? I've been pretty consistent with my FJ wavelands and Shine wavelands (though I think I tend to shine a little bit too early), but I can't get the hang of DJ WL timing on the different stages.

 

[Alexander Duprey]

I like the ppmd method of shine wavelanding; wait til falcos head/torso is about halfway through the plat then I practically press double jump and air dodge at the same time.

 

[Bones0]

DJing into WLs is easier because your landing detection is altered during Falco's spinning flip animation. You can actually do horizontal WLs during that animation, but it's also possible if you do a backwards FH because Falco flips in that animation as well. To test it, you can DJ or FH back towards a top plat, and pause right as you pass through it. Hold L/R + left/right, then unpause and if you paused at the right time, you will WL. Another factor in WL difficulty is the angle you airdodge at. The steeper the angle is, the easier it is (this is especially evident when doing WLs straight down into the plat because of how easy they are). I'm actually pretty bad at WLing without DJing because of the more difficult timing, but I think it's worth learning because as others have pointed out, getting hit out of your DJ as Falco can be pretty devastating.

Wow Bones0, thanks a ton for this, and the amazing example. Like really, that example made your explanation top notch. I hadn't even thought about using a wavedash to move my dashdance ranges left or right in the middle of someone else's attack. It seems like WDing into a dashdance (one left and one right) is faster than dashing twice in the same direction and then dashing back. Your advice is great and has really opened my mind.

I'm amazed at how much there is to learn about this game. The only thing is that I don't really know how I could have thought about something like that, which is why I feel so stuck in this game. I feel that I can win sets with the people that I play with, but I still go pretty even with them (sometimes it gets to last stock). I have a strong desire to do nothing less than 4 stock them every game, but I just feel stuck.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing you learned that technique/strategy by studying videos. If that's the case then I feel much better knowing how I can starting learning more and getting better. If you could let me know that'd be great (that is if you even know). Either way, I just remembered this http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-advice-questions-topic.98202/page-768#post-16125074 post of yours, and I'm going to read through it right now.

Also thank you everyone else for advice. All of them gave me an outside view and have been of great help.




I'm with xman. I use single jump wavelands because I while learning wavelands I could never get the double jump ones to be as consistent as my single ones on side platforms. Now for top platforms, I almost always use double jumps to get up there.

I actually took note of that "wavedash effect" based on advice I've read from Cactuar and KirbyKaze. Cactuar pointed out how your momentum is affected by dashing in the same direction as your momentum vs. dashing against your WD momentum. Both are useful, but for different things, and it can even vary by character. A character like Marth with a long WD/low traction can WD forward, then dash backwards and basically freeze. By contrast, if you WD right then dash right before DDing left, your momentum is mostly cancelled out by the first dash which can allow you to change directions differently than solely with dashes or WDing. KirbyKaze also posted about how he basically views WDing as a means to adjust the "pivot point" of your DD. So let's say you are DDing in a way that causes you to weave in and out of the opponent's range. If you want to move backwards, you can dash back, but because of the way DDing works, that would require you to dash forward towards them and you'll end up closer than you probably want to (how you did vs. the nair). If you use your WD to make that adjustment, you retain the ability to dash both forward and back afterwards, so it tends to make you more flexible.

After hearing these things, I went back through my videos and the videos of other top players and analyzed how they used their own dashes and WDs. It is surprisingly variable among players, even at the top level. Hax uses WDs a TON, and where other players would be caught dashing into an approach, he seems to always be able to retreat safely. PP is very DD heavy, and in combination with lasers (or just with Marth's larger DD), he can abuse center stage very well by holding position and punishing bad movements from the opponent very quickly.

It may seem like there's no way you'd ever notice this stuff on your own, and I feel like that all the time even with spending tons of time on the forums and watching videos. It's important to remember this game has been explored for literally over a decade, so to catch up to the metagame, you will not be able to reconstruct it on your own. You should pull from as many solid resources as possible, and I think Melee is actually the type of game that becomes easier to learn the better you become. It almost seems like a puzzle, and when you first start out, you feel like you are struggling just trying to put all the easy pieces in. You start with the corners, maybe do a couple of edges, and even when you get on a roll, it still seems like you're just lumping blue sky pieces together. The more you complete the puzzle, the more perspective you have on what the "final" image is, and the easier it is to start plugging pieces in without analyzing them a ton. It's all about building that foundation as much as you can before focusing on the details.

 

[Frost | Odds]

So I'm picking up falco, trying to train him up to a technical level where I can use him in tournament a week from now. What are the most important things I can/should practice?

I've got these to a semi-decent/fraudulent level:
waveshines; sh (reg, reversed, running, combinations thereof) laser; fullhop triple laser/ DJ triple laser/ double laser onto platform; double shines, shine grabs (not reverse shine grabs though, or double shines out of waveshines, yet), DJ waveland onto platforms.

I know that's some of the veeeeerrry basics. Also read most of the links in the OP, just looking for more exercises to work on, either for other important stuff or to polish the tech I already sorta have.

Right now I'm mostly just practicing the waveshine -> doubleshine, and trying to shadowbox.

inb4 i choke in bracket and forget how to down+b

 

[xman]

Waveshine to double shine is a must as falco but You have to know to shine -> waveland onto platform as muscle memory, shine out of shield is important. Being able to up tilt without jumping accidentally from a neutral analog position. You really have to practice his recovery options such as ledge teching with motion sensor bombs shorting the side b, sweet spoting fire bird to ledge. It is crucial for a falco main to have good recovery options cause his recovery isn't the greatest

 

[Bones0]

So I'm picking up falco, trying to train him up to a technical level where I can use him in tournament a week from now. What are the most important things I can/should practice?

I've got these to a semi-decent/fraudulent level:
waveshines; sh (reg, reversed, running, combinations thereof) laser; fullhop triple laser/ DJ triple laser/ double laser onto platform; double shines, shine grabs (not reverse shine grabs though, or double shines out of waveshines, yet), DJ waveland onto platforms.

I know that's some of the veeeeerrry basics. Also read most of the links in the OP, just looking for more exercises to work on, either for other important stuff or to polish the tech I already sorta have.

Right now I'm mostly just practicing the waveshine -> doubleshine, and trying to shadowbox.

inb4 i choke in bracket and forget how to down+b

1. Learn to dash dance. DD across FD from left to right, then vice versa.
2. Repeat until you have gdlk DD skills.
3. Apply said DD skills after SHLing.
4. ???
5. Profit.

 

[Frost | Odds]

My DD is already pretty legit, from playing Bowser in PM of all things. Been mixing it up with SHL in practice too, not sure I'll be able to apply it at all well, though. =[
nvm my DD sucks

thanks, xman!


I'm hoping that I'll be able to grind this tech stuff so hard that it'll be completely automatic come tourney time, so I can just focus on reads and not being a dumb idiot.

It also seems to be true that practicing spacies makes your other characters better. I have a vague idea that my toon link in PM may now be somewhere between godlike and untouchable not-totally-fraudulent and actually-decent

 

[Shiv.]

My DD is already pretty legit, from playing Bowser in PM of all things. Been mixing it up with SHL in practice too, not sure I'll be able to apply it at all well, though. =[


It also seems to be true that practicing spacies makes your other characters better. I have a vague idea that my toon link in PM may now be somewhere between godlike and untouchable not-totally-fraudulent and actually-decent

I have had this realization too, my Doc is became much more stable the day I started practicing Falco.
Which skills do you see transferring over to your TLink specifically?

 

[Frost | Odds]

I used to shoot arrows the wrong way a lot, and had a tough time consistently wavebouncing; also sometimes missed short hops. From labbing in PM a bit, it seems like all of those problems have been corrected.

ofc now I also try to shine with toon link, but eh.

 

[mooki]

ofc now I also try to shine with toon link, but eh.

Possibly a result of playing on autopilot.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Obviously. I just haven't taken the time to actually switch back to tink-mode yet. Wouldn't take more than a few minutes, but there's no need atm. Autopilot for tech stuff is fine, that's exactly what I want.

 

[mooki]

Autopilot for tech stuff is fine, that's exactly what I want.

IMO, autopilot's never good. Let's say you're falco and you land a downair on someone. Should you shine or uptilt (or maybe something else)? If you're on "autopilot for tech" you'll probably just shine. If that's a horrible choice compared to uptilt then I wouldn't be content with doing that instinctively.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Autopilot is never ideal, but for a beginner, I argue that it can be useful as an intermediate step towards more intelligent play when used mindfully. I have a limited amount of focus while I practice, and am trying to nail down one thing at a time. At the moment I'm less interested in learning about edge cases in comboing where utilt will be better than shine, and more interested in solidifying my shield pressure game, waveshines, and lasers.

Utilt is an amazing move (and underused imo), it's just not #1 on the priority list right now. I don't have any opportunities to practice with other people for a few days, so all I have until then is lab time. I find that my practice is a lot more effective when it's as highly focused as possible. Do you not find the same?

I used to be a highly competitive RTS player, so I'm kinda used to letting some parts of my game take care of themselves while I work on others. I assume the same sort of approach is appropriate here. Right now I just wanna build the most technically solid falco I can before Saturday.

 

[JCBeef]

Hey guys what are your thoughts on when and how to laser?
I've been experimenting with different ideas of when lasering is "right" and it has always interested me on how differently falcos (and good falcos) use their lasers.

From what I've seen there are :
Falcos that pretty much use lasers as easy follow up tools and don't really laser much in neutral - I don't think this is the right mindset for laser usage.

Falcos that use them when they need to regain control / are decently far from their opponent, then when they get in close they usually will resort to dash dancing / going in with a nair or something / retreating back with fade away lasers - From what I've seen this is a pretty dang good general mindset to have about lasers and has helped me some, it's probably closest to how I use lasers.

100% Lockdown lasers - But just straight up these are the lasers that frusturate your opponent and make them feel like they can't move IDK how to do this (especially against higher lvl players) cause I'm not the best at locking down with lasers, I always get out-positioned so if anyone has sweet tips for this, just faster lasers, or being far enough / dashing around enough to not get stuffed out of your lasers ( Cause when I try this I always get too close on accident and get stuffed )

So what is your mindset on lasers? Do you try to use it to cover options like a roll while you're pressuring without committing to moving to cover that roll? Do you mix movement in w/ lasers if so then what movements?

Talking about stuff just helps me get better so I'm just throwing ideas out there.
And obviously there is no "right" way to laser but in the moment what works works.

 

[Oskurito]

Hey guys what are your thoughts on when and how to laser?
I've been experimenting with different ideas of when lasering is "right" and it has always interested me on how differently falcos (and good falcos) use their lasers.

From what I've seen there are :
Falcos that pretty much use lasers as easy follow up tools and don't really laser much in neutral - I don't think this is the right mindset for laser usage.

Falcos that use them when they need to regain control / are decently far from their opponent, then when they get in close they usually will resort to dash dancing / going in with a nair or something / retreating back with fade away lasers - From what I've seen this is a pretty dang good general mindset to have about lasers and has helped me some, it's probably closest to how I use lasers.

100% Lockdown lasers - But just straight up these are the lasers that frusturate your opponent and make them feel like they can't move IDK how to do this (especially against higher lvl players) cause I'm not the best at locking down with lasers, I always get out-positioned so if anyone has sweet tips for this, just faster lasers, or being far enough / dashing around enough to not get stuffed out of your lasers ( Cause when I try this I always get too close on accident and get stuffed )

So what is your mindset on lasers? Do you try to use it to cover options like a roll while you're pressuring without committing to moving to cover that roll? Do you mix movement in w/ lasers if so then what movements?

Talking about stuff just helps me get better so I'm just throwing ideas out there.
And obviously there is no "right" way to laser but in the moment what works works.

Both ways of using lasers are helpful, the first one probably being the most hybrid. If you want to learn how to lockdown almost 100% you need to shoot very fast, and jump and shoot while keeping and eye on them at the same time because if they get close you need to react in some way, either running away and keep shooting or going agressive with a plan.

 

[shapular]

Do you guys have any tips for getting the Falco tech down? Right now I can play a decent Falco based almost entirely on spacing and reads, but I think I could be really solid if I could do at least some basic Falco stuff. The problem is I'm having trouble with stuff as basic as drillshines and waveshines right now. Do I just have to grind it out, or is there a better way to go about it?

 

[Russ The Love Muss]

Do you guys have any tips for getting the Falco tech down? Right now I can play a decent Falco based almost entirely on spacing and reads, but I think I could be really solid if I could do at least some basic Falco stuff. The problem is I'm having trouble with stuff as basic as drillshines and waveshines right now. Do I just have to grind it out, or is there a better way to go about it?

There isn't really a secret to getting the tech down. The best thing to do would just grind out the individual parts of each tech instead of trying to drill shine on your first go. Just practice the l cancel timing when you hit shields, or just hit them, then shine, then follow ups etc. The 20xx pack is really good for practising that sort of stuff.

 

[Tityboi]

Hey guys, I accidentally discovered this the other day while practicing tech skill, Its probably been done before but I thought i should post it somewhere, as its a pretty fast way to grab the opposite ledge from a battlefield side platform.
Basically what you do is do a standard edge-cancelled side-b on battlefield initiated by dashing off the side platform towards the middle, then you walk off the opposite platform, fast-fall and do a turnaround laser, ledge-cancel the laser, slide off and grab the ledge. The reason I mention it is because I think its faster than doing a shine-turnaround-up-b, although I don't have any evidence. If someone wants to test it that would be cool. I hope I explained it well.

 

[Xyzz]

Duh, that's faster than going for shine turnaround up b. It's rarely necessary to get over that quickly, and doesn't look as cool, but it's certainly the fastest option should the need arise.

 

[Tityboi]

It looks pretty cool if the laser comes out, but I don't think you can fastfall to do that, and at that point it probably wouldn't be faster.

 

[Bones0]

Phantasm edgecancel into FF RSHL edgecancel onto the ledge doesn't look as cool as shine turnaround up-B?!?

 

[SpiderMad]

Phantasm edgecancel into FF RSHL edgecancel onto the ledge doesn't look as cool as shine turnaround up-B?!?

What, where's a video of that?

Also I got 20XX working.... THIS GAME IS EVIL:
What aerials are possible to hit on Marth's shield in front of him and shine him before he can grab me? Mango was makin Nair work for Fox. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxh_y0BQ5LM&list=PLovBMkMLex7x26W4D8ejP6vWrCOdPr8s1#t=1062

I think this might be common knowledge but if you shine Marth's shield and jump, it seems going with a FH gets you higher faster to escape it where as a SH you have to be frame perfect or so to avoid the frame perfect grab.

Also Mango showed his hands of how he multi-shines, and said Hax does it differently. Man I need to see more methods, and I still have no grasp on how M2K Double lasers with Fox using X to B as well as Wesballz using X to B to multushine

 

[FriendGuy]

using the 20XX hack pack, i discovered that in order dair/nair > shine to work without getting grabbed, you have to hit the shield on the way down during fastfall. I always used to dair or nair immediately and that would never work.

 

[OninO]

The way I think of it is as inputting the fast fall after you've made the hit. If you time it right, even hitting high on shield it's possible to get the shine out before you get grabbed at least in my testing with 20XX. The window is more forgiving the lower you hit on shield in a way as they get more shield stun, but it's also harder to input the fast-fall to l-cancel after connecting the lower to the ground you are.

 

[SpiderMad]

so hard. How do Dair and Nair differ in regards to not getting shield grabbed? And how does Falco's nair differ from Fox's in that regard too.